I’m ordering new tracks and they want my serial number. The rivets on the plate have long ago rusted away. The engine number is 45V38076 the arraignment is 1W0162. It is a 39 link chain. I’ve bought a bunch of parts for it without the serial # but they say they need it. I’ve been converting a PC 3204 to DI 3204 so I see what you can run into. Many many differences in the engines even though both were 45Vs. Help
I tried relating 45V38076 to a machine Serial Number but came up empty. Have a look on the Bevel Gear Case in the area indicated by the photo for a stamped machine Serial Number. Sorry the photo is not very clear.
Thanks, I’ll look into that tomorrow. I didn’t know that was there.
I tried looking on the top front of the bevel case nothing there. I’ll look for other spots. Any 8nfo on where else they might be? Thanks
You might have to dig under the paint to find the stamped number. If the case has a thick coat of paint on top a good dose of paint remover might be the key to finding it.
Is there anything that distinguishes between 23y 24y 27y 28y? I’ve looked at 2 28Ys and they look different from each other. Where a 27y looks exactly like mine. 6 bottom rollers 39 link track. That’s what I ordered.
D3 s/n locations....
3F 1R transmission and 3F 3R transmission use different prefixes. Std. or wide pad could have a different prefix as well.
23Y/24Y tractors have a 3F/1R transmission. 23Y tractors are standard track gauge 24Y tractors are LGP (wide) track gauge. 27Y/28Y tractors have a 3F/3R transmission. 27Y tractors are standard track gauge 28Y tractors are LGP (wide) track gauge.
Sorry, double post.
This helps a good bit. So I think I have a 24y, 6 bottom rollers, wide tracks, 3 fwd 1 r.
Did you ever post a photo or two of the tractor.? Someone might be able to identify it from that.
If you do actually have a 24V then I think I might be able to narrow it down a bit. Unfortunately individual engine Serial Numbers are not associated with specific tractor Serial Numbers and I have no idea why this is. Tractors with S/N up to 24V817 have a range of engines in them that are from 45V21898 to 45V32893. Tractors with S/N between 24V818 and 24V1818 have a range of engine in them that are from 45V32894 to 45V40125. So this range would include your particular tractor with the original engine S/N 45V38076. Tractors with S/N above 24V01819 have a range of engines in them that are from 45V40126 and Up. Based on the information you supplied above I would say that you have a 24V tractor and the S/N is probably somewhere in the 24V1500-1700 range. Can't say any closer than that.
Thanks that’s what I see based on your info. I’m doing a little maintenance on it right now. New engine, new sprockets, and new tracks. I replaced the steering clutches and brakes about 18 months ago. New rollers and idlers in the last few months. As I mentioned in my first post we use this a lot for a non commercial machine.
Shake hands with danger homeowner version . Bad Bob
At least 3 knows what “shake hands with danger homeowner version” means. Would one of you care to clue me in on the meaning.
Search for that title on YouTube. It might be educational. The full version is 20+ minutes long.
It's a Cat safety video from the '70s. I think Bob was talking about the way you are tip loading that grabhook, pulling the sprocket. I would only try that with a good long porta power hose. It would get you thrown off most commercial jobsites.
I’m not on a commercial site, thank goodness. Retired from 45 years of actual machining. 21 years building and machining race engine, 4 years making knees and hips, an 17 years machining on jumbo jets and making tools for them. I’ve watched more than my share of corporate safety videos. I know what the actual tool to pull the sprockets looks like. If I were going to do it several times I would make the tool, but since this is a one time deal I made do. When I was working on the big planes the mechanics were doing a landing gear change. They installed a new spherical bearing, the machinists were supposed to do this operation. Some how they got this big bearing in the air frame with .020 press fit on it. The airframe was supped to be machined larger for this bearing in case there was corrosion behind the original. Once they got the bearing in they could fit the inner part due to the press fit. Then they called us. I pull a 50 ton press on it and couldn’t budge it. A senior manager is there watching this snafu unfold. He says you aren’t going to pull this plane off of the jack stands with that much press are you? I just shook my head. The force was on the bearing and frame which couldn’t have moved the plane. Then they said how are you going to get it out. I said well I’m going to take a die grinder and cut that very expensive brand new bearing out! I used an InnerPac jack on the sprocket with a long hose on it so if something were to happen I wouldn’t get hit! I torched the sprocket part off and them machined the hub true. Now all I have to do is repeat the other side and weld the new sprockets on.
Using a bolt instead of a proper clevice on the chain hook is another bad idea. I have a 25Y 931B that's the loader version. Despite the scary way you pulled the sprockets off, why didn't you put complete new sprockets on better yet hubs for segments? You went to a LOT of unnecessary work to weld sprockets rims on. I used weld on sprocket rims to save money and because it didn't require pulling the original sprockets off the machine. I thought that was the main benefit of using weld on rims, you could weld them on the hubs without having to remove the sprockets. On a D3B once the tracks are off there's nothing else really in the way to cut the hubs and bevel them so the new rims can be welded on. The rims can be beveled on the bench easy enough. I measured from the frame to the edge of the teeth before cutting the rims off. It was 18" in 3 different positions so that's how I tacked the new rims on to get them straight. A friend was helping me. We ran a hot 6010 to get good penetration and fill any slightly larger gaps. Then did vertical up 7018 for the fill/cap pass on the outside. For the inside I picked up the machine with the backhoe and used a chain so the stabilizers couldn't retract. I slowly turned the sprocket a few inches at a time while my friend welded the rim at the bottom. It was a little tricky and not perfect but still got a good sound weld. I held the brake for the opposite side so only the side being welded would turn. Then I used that side brake to let the sprocket turn a tiny bit at a time. By myself I would have just done the inside vertical up. The ground clamp was tightly clamped to the new sprocket rims so it would be the shortest path of electricity. 1500 or so hours later no problems.
if a bolt works for a service tech it’s good enough for me. As for not replacing the whole sprocket, 1 I wouldn’t want to rely on the quality of the taper on the imports and 2 2 new rings with teeth $390, 2 new sprockets $1600.
So if someone else does something questionable it's a good reason for you to do the same? You're a machinist, couldn't you check the taper on an aftermarket sprocket and is the $1600 for Cat sprockets? If the aftermarket sprockets had issues with the taper I'm sure there would be mention of it on multiple forums like this one. Regardless, you created a whole lot of extra work that wasn't necessary and also set yourself up to potential serious injury. People do sketchy things all the time. Sometimes because they're out in the boonies with no other resources. You weren't in that situation. Using jacks exerting tons and tons of force isn't where you want to compromise your safety should something go wrong.
Just because you don’t have confidence in your own work isn’t an issue for me. I tried twice to remove the sprocket with the chain. It worked both times. I don’t need it to work again. Would I suggest someone else do this no but it didn’t even register on my risky meter.
Nige this has deteriorated just about like most forums but before it dies completely I want the sincerely thank you for answering my question.
There are potentially 1000's of people reading these forums. If dangerous methods of doing things aren't pointed out someone could attempt the same thing and be seriously injured. To disregard this and think you are invisible is wrong. The Shake Hands with Danger reference was quite appropriate.
New sprockets welded on Danger Homeowner style!
That weld was done in the flat position? It looks a little questionable where it says Cat and Japan. Did you bevel the hub?
One would think that someone with such a keen eye for critiquing every post I’ve made would certainly notice the large bevel all of the way around the hub. The sprocket came with a bevel. It’ll get the job done!
Robert61, I don’t know why you are getting hammered so hard. Your method works well for you and you were not pushing it on anyone. Good skills. Glad you posted. I’m not smart enough to make a critique and why would I want to? I’m not there helping you.
Not to worry, I have really thick skin. I fully expected comments about how I did this from the Welder. I’m not doing it to impress or please anyone. It’s a dozer and I’m just doing it to make it work and it will. It’ll outlast me. A neighbor came over last nite and said you don’t have any tracks on your dozer. I said tracks ? looka at it there’s no blade, engine, or tracks. He said well you could have bought a new one for that. I worked in a medical devise company for a few years. They were behind in the welding shop. The manager comes to me and asks if I can weld some surgical tools together. He says the welders aren’t going to like this at all, you aren’t certified. It was a very simple operation. The tig torch was set up on a lathe all did was put the two parts in. You didn’t even use a filler the weld material was made into one half. Just to really **** them off I ran as much each nite as they were doing in 3 days.
First of all I responded to what the different prefixes in the serial number mean. You lost credibility when you had a total disregard to being called out for doing and posting things that very easily could have caused serious injury. When something goes bad, you don't get a do over. You go to all the trouble to pull the hubs, turn them in a lathe and have them set up perfect but then deposit welds that anyone with a couple month's experience could have done better. The idea of the bevel is to have it equal on both sides and fill up with weld. The weld beside where it says Cat is especially poor. Sorry but it makes no sense to me to go to all that trouble and then cheap out on the welding. What were you using for a welder and what rods?
Thank you and you're welcome. However I would like to make a comment, not with the intention of prolonging this discussion but to put forward a point of view that I'm sure many of the experienced people on HEF share. On this forum there are a large number of regular posters who have worked with Yellow Iron most/all their lives which makes it probably the best resource for heavy equipment on the internet. The experienced members see it as a responsibility to point out questionable repair practices. For my part I had over 40 years around earthmoving equipment maintenance & repair before retirement, I'm sure other posters who chimed in here such as Bluox and Mitch504 would likely be similar. You mentioned your extensive experience as a machinist in an earlier post, so let me ask you this. If you saw someone operating any sort of machine tool wearing a flapping necktie, loose jewellery, or a shirt cuff not fastened I hope that as an experienced hand you would feel obligated to point it out to that person as an unsafe practice. Even if it was only on a photo I am sure the phrase "that's not safe, he shouldn't be doing that" would be going round in your head. I see no difference in what I assume would be your answer to my question above and people expressing an opinion of the tooling & method that you used to remove that sprocket. As mentioned, lots of others read these forums and unless a comment was made they might well think what was shown in the photos is an approved/acceptable way of doing the job. In consideration of that I find myself somewhat disappointed by your extremely defensive response. One last pointer. If you ever have to work on the track recoil & tensioning mechanism on your tractor please bear in mind that the big spring in the centre of the assembly is commonly referred to in the business as a Death Spring for a very good reason. You don't have to thank me - you're welcome.
I changed the Death Springs when I was initially going over the machine 18 months ago. That’s why they aren’t broke now. I get the safety aspect of most of the comments but one commenter isn’t just posting on safety he’s had a comment on several posts in this thread and negative comments in the only other thread I’ve posted. I don’t think I’ve responded negatively to any other poster. I signed up and posted looking for exactly what I got from you and yes I expected the responses on my method of removal but the other responses from Welder are out of line as far as I’m concerned. I don’t have 45 years of heavy equipment experience. I built my first dozer motor for a JD 450 in 78. The last I knew of it in the early 90s it was still running fine. I put brakes and steering clutches in it as well. Then the guy bought an old D4 with the pony motor I had to rebuild the main engine in it too. With that being said I can hang around and hope to gain insight from guys like you no the ones you mentioned or just move along.
With that being said I can hang around and hope to gain insight from guys like you “or”the ones you mentioned or just move along.
I have more that forty years of experience and don't really see much of a problem with what you did. There is always more than one way to get a job done which is the mark of a professional. There are those on here that read a book or or something similar posted in the past and think they are now experts and qualified to tell a professional they are doing something wrong. From your posts, I see that you know who they are. Don't let them deter you from future use of the site.
Yeah, my post was mainly telling you what "shake hands with danger" meant. The only thing I saw as questionable was the hooks on the edge of the sprocket, and what's wrong with that as long as there's nothing you care about within range, that's why I said use a long hose. Don't leave until you explain how you beveled the edge of the hub with it clamped to the mill table. I do have 40 yrs experience with heavy equipment, (thanks Nige for making me realize I'm old), but I am a rank amateur learning machining, just because it has always fascinated me.
I think Nige summed it up perfectly. I'd much rather be the bad guy for pointing something out that has serious potential to cause injury than not pointing it out and feeling guilty after someone got injured thinking it was the accepted way to do it. There are several members who liked the Shake Hands with Danger reference. I'm very grateful it was instilled in me early to never have a casual approach to your own and especially others safety. Have I have done some sketchy stuff, yes but I've also scared myself after the fact thinking what if something would have went wrong. I've seen chains break and the damage it can cause just from pulling a stuck vehicle. It's scary to think what could happen under several more tons of pressure.
I reckon Robert61 must have a whole lot of angels looking after him - and he's sure got a whole lot more confidence in a length of chain and a dubious-looking bolt and grab hook arrangement, than I ever would have. I'm with Welder Dave and Bluox on this one - sure they're critical, but with good reason. They've both probably seen guys badly injured by "gyppo" pulling/pressing setups, where high pressures and great forces were involved. One of the things I learnt about chains and lifting, is that angled loads on a chain quite often double the load on the chain - so the chain load rating is reduced by a substantial amount, where the pull is not direct. All I can say is, it's fortunate we aren't discussing a major workshop injury here, and I reckon the photo of the sprocket being pulled with the chain and hook should be overmarked in red ink, with "Do Not Try This at Home!"
I’m old as well as some of you guys. I machined the sprocket in my mill. It is cnc so I just program it to cut the shape I want. My lathe isn’t big enough to cut the sprocket. I got lucky, when I cut the sprocket it had a very slight press fit so I pulled the new sprocket on with clamps on the mill table. That was just to check my fit. I took the sprocket back off and beveled the hubs with an angle grinder. I took them to my place put them on checked position tacked them pretty good then fully welded. They are fully welded on both sides. I didn’t come to this site to be argumentative I came for others experience. Having been on a few forums it doesn’t take long to figure out who’s who! That’s why I haven’t made any negative response to any other poster. I knew I would catch it on my setup. I was trying to buy a dump truck from a neighbor. I didn’t know him and had to ask around. They say he was old and didn’t work on stuff much any more. I go to his shop expecting an old frail man. I walk in and he’s down in the floor finishing up assembling a 3204 for a dozer just like mine. I introduce myself. He tells me he’s 81 about to turn 82. As we talk I notice a tool where the injector pump goes. He explains the procedure for setting the timing which I hadn’t gotten to at that point, I just knew there were no timing marks on the pump sprocket. Later I borrowed the tool set my pump and made a blueprint so I can make the tool. He still works full time as a heavy equipment mechanic and does work at home. I had to ask, I said are you still picking this stuff up? I had to make one of my grandsons help me set the head in place because of the heighth of the engine on my stand. He says you’ll be able to get all of the work you want around here. I laughed and said I didn’t retire to get more work I only work on my stuff and friends.
I did try to remove the photo since it gave some of you the hibbygibbies but I had already edited the post once and I guess you can’t do it twice.
You can only edit for a short time, I think it's an hour. I wondered if you had somehow cut the circumference of the hub on a manual mill. I have a 9x42 Bridgeport clone (JVM-942f) from the '70s, but my lathe that I haven't even finished repairing is small., despite being very heavy built, it was originally run with a flat belt off an overhead shaft.
You can only edit for a short time, I think it's an hour. I wondered if you had somehow cut the circumference of the hub on a manual mill. I have a 9x42 Bridgeport clone (JVM-942f) from the '70s, but my lathe that I haven't even finished repairing is small., despite being very heavy built, it was originally run with a flat belt off an overhead shaft.
Welding on sprocket rims isn't rocket science, and there's plenty of Cat literature that gives you heaps of advice - even really old Cat literature. But getting a good true fit with rim replacement is important, because correct alignment of rotating undercarriage components means longer-lasting undercarriage, and less stress on other components. Also, weld "pull" with weld shrinkage over a large circumference can increase any misalignment initially incurred with bad rim positioning - so accurate initial rim positioning, as well as ensuring dimensional accuracy from the sprocket center, are all important points. In every photo of Cat dealership sprocket rim replacements being done, both the sprocket and rim are positioned on a heavy fabricated stand, specifically designed for that sprocket, and the rim is clamped via 4 large equally-spaced G clamps, to ensure welding distortion is minimized. Sprocket tooth runout must be kept to a minimum, ideally less than 1/8".
We're Cat replacement rims welded automatically? When a friend helped me with mine we put a lot of good tacks and did a lot of measuring to insure they were straight and stayed straight. Hardest part was cutting the old rim off the right dia. and having it centered. We put some sheet metal behind the sprockets to catch most of the sparks from the cutting torch. It would have been easier if the sprockets were held on with bolts like JD dozers. I heard it can take 20 tons or more to pull the hubs off.
Dave, maybe some track shops or dealers were set up for automatic welding of sprocket rims, but I can't say I've ever seen any. Links, yes - submerged arc was the regular system there - but for a sprocket, you'd need a sprocket rotation arrangement, and I would imagine that wasn't worth the cost. A lot of crawler owners did their own sprocket rims, if they had the time or labor and equipment.
I know a little about concentricity, this is a repair I did to my idler on my excavator. I replaced both idlers on my D3B but with new aftermarket ones. They were cheaper than the time and materials to repair plus they were both absolutely worn out on the outer diameter. I made new bushings from aluminum nickel bronze, it’s a really tough material. I had to make a new axle and heat treat it as well. I had to machine these guides back round. I cut a groove in each facing the slides for an oring seal.
I thought maybe since they had a heavy jig for aligning everything they'd have a turntable for welding. An independent shop here used to run a day and night night shift rebuilding idlers with 2 automatic sub-arc machines. I don't think they do any rebuilding now but there is another guy with a smaller shop that has an automatic set up. Rollers used to be built up too by some shops but I think with better quality aftermarket parts, labour and the cost of the build up wire it only makes economic sense to rebuild the largest idlers on D9 class machines and up. Probably not enough work for a large shop to have full time idler build up personel but good for a smaller niche market repair shop. I did work experience at the shop back in 1981. All the idlers to get built up had to have about a 2 1/2" hole cut in them so they wouldn't build up intense internal pressure from the welding process. It was an easy way to tell if idlers had been built up previously. It was common to see idlers with 2 or even 3 plugs welded back in. I would imagine some younger people might see the welded plugs on a machine and think there was a problem with the idlers.
A little New Year’s Day dozer repair. Got the hubs pressed back on. These hubs had weld on sprockets from a previous repair so I had no idea if they were on correctly or not, they were extremely tight with no evidence of wear. I measured the distance from the end of the axle to the flange of the hub before I removed the sprockets so I would have an idea how far back on they should be. I pulled them up tight with the nut then measured. They measured about .015” from being on as far as they were before I removed them. I’m thinking I might have trouble getting them on enough with my setup. After pressing them I remeasured and they were on .015” further than they were initially. I didn’t see any mention of this but I put grease on the spindle before I installed them so they wouldn’t gall. I reasoned that the fd fluid was going to work into the splines so grease shouldn’t hurt.
The Cat service manual always calls for a specified tonnage of pressure when replacing sprockets. I seem to recall it's 35 to 40 tons for the D3 sprocket. A pressure gauge is a necessary addition to the press circuit. Your measurement scheme is quite a satisfactory idea, you shouldn't have any trouble if the sprocket is on .015" further, than where it was, before removal. Better to be too tight, than too loose. Spline inspection is a must prior to installation. Check for burrs and nicks on the splines, and smooth them off if you find any. Check for signs of spline wear, or indications of previous sprocket movement on the splines. Grease on the splines will make the sprocket go on further with the same level of pressure. Shouldn't really be necessary, the splines are a very tight and close fit, and I've never seen rusty sprocket splines yet, in 57 years of fixing crawlers - although I guess there's always a 1st time for everything.
Curious what was used to anchor the jack to and what the Cat procedure is? Not being judgemental just wondering because if it takes 30+ tons I'd think the machine would just slide sideways unless it was attached to the anchor.
You screw a piece of B7 threaded rod into the threaded hole in the end of the shaft, then slide a hollow cylinder over that, then a plate and a nut, ( I use a couple of nuts). This way, the pressure is only affecting the shaft and sprocket.
I wouldn't have thought a single threaded bar would hold that much force but it obviously does.
Looking at my picture you’ll see a 1” diameter hardened all thread rod. I made an adapter at the blue arrow. This attaches the one inch rod to the hub. I had a big steel cylinder there to put over the adapter but it wouldn’t fit. So I used 3 deep well sockets instead. I went slowly as I didn’t want to damage my press or break one of the sockets and send it flying. I pressed the first one on pushing as hard as I could on the jack because I knew it needed 35 tons of force. I measured and said well look at that. Then I did the other side. Very happy with how they turned out. Of course it’s just too bad to have that cheaped out especially poor quality weld there at the cat Japan area!
That's the other sprocket. LoL
If they let go, they fly quite a distance. Couple guys were pressing in bushings on a stick in the shop I used to work at. Threads let go and that 3 foot chunk of threaded rod was airborne for about 15-20 feet before sliding another 10 feet along the floor and embedding itself in the bottom of a cabinet along the wall. Acme rod is a lot stronger. Square threads like a caging bolt.
Nice try but wrong. At the black circle there are the letters LMI. On the other sprocket those are proud like all of the other letters. The die they stamped this one with the LMI is worn to almost nothing. It’s the same sprocket. When it breaks out I’ll ship up north and have a real welder weld it correctly.
You're running close to the wind putting 35 tons of pressure on a 1" threaded rod. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/us-bolts-tensile-proof-load-d_2066.html Here's a pro operator using the correct tooling. You can see how robust the proper removal/installation adaptors are. The press ram shaft is pinned to an adaptor screwed onto the end of the sprocket shaft.
I think we've all done some sketchy **** in our lives but honestly I'm with Dave on the homemade press with the hook and chain. I wouldn't want to be within 25 feet of that the way it was setup. I just hate seeing people get hurt working on equipment. Wood and metal will beat flesh every time and I've got a few marks to back that up.
Show pics. of the other sprocket. The stops and starts are clearly in different locations unless it was rewelded. I'm not trying to be annoying just making an observation. I would have liked to put new sprockets on mine because the sprockets on it are Berco and don't have the 3 holes that are used to hold 300lb. counterweights. A previous owner torch cut the holes a little big and the back up plates don't hold as well. I had to remove 1 counterweight because it was ready to fall off. Didn't want to lose it in the mud or something. It's on my to do list to make bigger backing plates but I can still run the machine. I don't need the counterweights unless I take the backhoe off and load wet clay. Machine can feel a little light on the back when loading a dump truck.
They are different I thought I only had pics of the one. I don’t know how many tons of force I applied. It’s a small hand pump. A one hardened rod will stand 120,000 lbs in tension, has 130,000 lbs yield strength. In any event it never felt spongy and pulled them on further than they were so I’m good. I referenced that video earlier showing the bolts he used in lieu of pins. Obviously his way is much better but I’m not a heavy equipment tech.
O.K. so we got 130,000 psi for the yield strength of your threaded rod. That's "per square inch " when I went to school. A 1" round rod is not a 1" square rod, big difference in cross-section area between the two. Then, for a 1" thread, you have to measure the actual thickness of the unthreaded section. This is called the root area or minor diameter. On a 1" round UNF 14 TPI thread, the engineers tell me that figure is 0.910". https://www.echosupply.com/blog/unified-national-thread-chart/ So, with 1" UNF HT threaded rod, you're relying on a circular section 0.910" in diameter to hold all that pressure you're applying. My maths says that equates to 0.6503" square inches of root area. Multiplied by 130,000 gives me a yield strength of 84,539 psi for that 1" UNF threaded rod. Then the engineers tell me to use 0.6 as a safety factor, when calculating threaded section working strength. I'd have to opine that if you applied 35 tons of pressure on that threaded rod, you quite likely stretched that threaded rod beyond its plastic deformation limit. Otherwise, you didn't reach 35 tons of pressure. But only a pressure gauge tells you what pressure you're applying, and that's really handy to know, when you're reaching plastic deformation limits under high pressure.
I get it OZdozer. And yes I got an area of .606” and about 90,000. It didn’t stretch the rod or threads. The rod screws out by hand just as easily as it did new.
All the more reason to ask on forums like this so you don't get seriously injured. If a sprocket takes 35 tons to put on it might take that much or more to take it off.
You also have to consider the threads can act as a notch. More critical in a sideways load but not as strong as if it were solid without threads. I think B7 studs threads are applied to have less effect on strength than standard threads. Can't remember the types of threads at the moment. One type is rolled. Fine is much better than coarse thread though.