From reading these pages over the past few years it seems to me that most dirt jobs in the US...even small ones are done against a quote. Times may well be changing and it could be the same here in the cities but, around here in the sticks it’s still generally hourly rate work as it was back in the ‘sixty’s. The problem is there are some slack ass “contractors” who have no idea of how to run a business. I have hired a couple of excavators and dozers during the past few years and none of them have been satisfactory when it comes to time keeping and invoicing...I query everything unless I receive an itemised account. One bloke reckoned he worked on engine hour meter hours...and on the first day the twenty five ton Hitachi started in the morning and ran until half past five that night. I asked him for the hours and he read it from the meter...and at $130 an hour you’d think he’d mention tenths. He got a little agro when I pointed out that on half a dozen occasions he’d been wandering around the paddock with his ear stuck to a phone...plus a short lunch break and smoko with an idling machine. I gave him a cheque and told him he was finished and he’d better phone in for the float. With a one man operation it is a pain in the butt to be taking time out estimating...far better if you can just hook into it and get the bugger done. The thing is any job takes what it takes...if you have good machinery suited to the job, a competent operator and a fair hourly rate there is no way to do it better. In most cases the client is the “winner” because if I’m quoting I’ll add a contingency factor. For instance I would fly over a block of scrub (or ride it) with the client and would maybe estimate that it should cost around two dollars fifty an acre... but would point out that I would quote three bucks if he wanted it pulled “contract”. I should add that in those days D9G’s hired at fifty to sixty bucks an hour and we threw the chain in free. To work this way you have to know your costs and work at the high end of the rate scale...this allows some “wriggle room” if things go a little pear shaped. You need to be impeccable with your record keeping and bookwork. All our machines had a specially printed log book. The operators were obliged to have a decent watch. If we were pulling (with two or three tractors) start times and stop times for each run were recorded with notations with the reason for stopping such as “broken chain”, “broken blade rope”, “smoko” or what all...the client was charged by the minute for the actual hours that the machines worked. For a while we also ran we also ran Kienzle clockwork vibration card recorders but they were unable to cope with the dust and vibration. At the finish of the job the often grimy dog eared originals from the logbooks (and the recorder cards if available) were supplied to the client with the invoice showing a breakdown of the individual jobs, the machine number, the hourly rate and hours and minutes worked. With this strategy we were able to build up a reputation as honest brokers in a huge area of Queensland and apart from Government work we were rarely asked to quote. On the smaller scale it realy bugs me to see folks getting duded by blokes quoting exorbitant prices for straight forward painting, house yard fencing and roofing jobs...and then hear them skiting later that they’d “killed it” putting up a fence for some little old lady...I suppose it’s lack of competition, probably a condition that doesn’t apply so much in the US? Any comments?
I rather work by the hour, but there are very few customers here who will go for it, so, like you said I put more on when I quote a set price for the job. I have actually had quite a few customers get mad when I wouldn't let them have their cake and eat it too, by doing the job for the lesser of the two, by the hour or my quote price, whichever is cheaper.
With me it's strictly by the hour, but also it's strictly time on the job not with phone stuck in my ear or lunch break. Never had any complaints and I intend to keep it that way.
I'm a residential remodeling contractor. Not only is nearly all of my work done on a quoted price, its done only after I have a signed contract. My subs all give me firm prices in writing.
I do most of mine hourly off the meter, some around me do hourly from the shop and back again it starts at the shop and quits when they get back and thats including lunch and coffee breaks, idling, cell phone time travel you name it, others do it off a wrist watch time, it all depends on what it is and who's doing it. Bidding isn't a big deal around me, most have it figured out its cheaper by the hour for them in the end, I'd love to bid everything but thats not the case, and one guy bids jobs and has a clause in his bid that if it exceeds the amount bid he charges extra, so tell me how he gets by with that. It also changes in neighborhoods, one area will accept to the tenth of an hour others want it rounded to the half hour, don't ask me why but I've been confronted about billing for tenths and not to the half hour so in those neighborhoods we bill to the half hour even if its more, which I've never understood but makes them happy and me more money.
I do contracts, its alot simpler that way I think.
Hi Scrub Puller, Your comment resonated with me. One of the main reasons why I'm here is to investigate buying some machinery for an incident almost identical to the one you described.
I'm a plumbing/electrical contractor. For the most part I work by the hour. I charge by the hour meter for the machines plus charge for time on job for personnel.
That's the same way around here. Everyone wants a firm price, what they don't understand is by the hour is 9 times out of 10 cheaper. So give the customer what they want. It's really all about the risk of the job and what that risk is worth. The client is willing (whether they understand it or not) to pay more for you to take the risk involved with the job when they want a "bid" price. That risk has value in our industry and should have a $ figure attached to it. The projects I bid always have a contingency factor added to it. Problem is there are still jacklegs out there that are bidding jobs for way less than what it costs to do it, much less make a profit. I would've thought they were all gone by now.
Bankers want no surprises, thats what it gets down to for some I've found, they want hard numbers to go by even if its a higher price.
All the jacklegs that were there 3 yrs ago when the economy died ARE all gone. The problem though is the same that we've always had: There is an endless supply of jacklegs waiting in the wings to buy the equipment the others just lost. ointhead
The only clients we do hourly are clients we have worked with in the past. I agree I am about sick and tired of the jacklegs that continually pop up underbidding everything.
i'll only work per contract...i can typically outproduce money wise by a BUNCH those who bid strictly hourly. they want $130 hr/for a 210 sized excavator...i can throw at least 100 yds an hour...at $3.75 a yard.....keep on charging by the hour...i'll go by what i'm capable of producing
Dayexco, I have a question for you using your figures, your basically charging or bidding that machine at 375 per hour then and your bidding against those that are charging 130 per hour, if your winning the bids then they are figuring on even more than 375 per hour or if they were less they'd get the jobs instead of you? Seems to me your cheaper then they actually end up being in the end so I"m not seeing how they are only charging 130 per hour? Not to be smart just asking if there's something I missed or didn't understand in your post.
Yair...I don't quite get it either dayexco...you'll throw a hundred yards an hour into trucks at three bucks seventy five or is that dig to spoil/baling out a hole...and what sort of digging, shot rock or sand?....and how do you work it out if there's a hold up with the trucks...I never used to mind waiting with a full bucket. Not much was wearing out and the dollar clock was ticking...and the way I see it provided you get fair and reasonable rate there is not that constant need to push the jigger hard.
you have to be a pretty bad operator not to cycle 2 times a min. average, right? less than that, i'd park it and ask for meals on wheels....1 yd bucket that's 120 yds. an hr.....i went down to 100....shop your area, most 45k lb. machines..you'll rent w/operator for $130 an hr...i get $3.75 a yd. do the math.
what i'm giving them, is a completed cost price...i don't care what their hourly rate is. hrly bidders worry more about the time they have stuck in the job...i'm worried more on how many yds i have in the job, and how quick i can move it
either way your bidding it on time... time on the job or what you feel you can bail in an hour. Sounds like an easy way to confuse your customers.
and how would that be confusing? customer has 100 yds to move, i charge him $375..he knows up front...some hourly clown comes along, tells him it'll be $130 an hour...well, i would think the customer would wonder....gee, this take 1 hr...or 6 hrs?
Yair...dayexco, this is interesting. You quote three hundred and seventy five bucks and yet you're saying that an average hand on a similar jigger on hourly rate will bail the hundred yards for a hundred and thirty? You're doing good mate, I think you need a bit of competition though, those numbers don't add up at all...it wouldn't work round here.
going rate for basement excavation here is $3.75 per cubic yard. going rate for hourly rate on a 210 sized excavator is $130 per hour...if they don't add up, is because you're punching the wrong numbers on your calculator?
hourly or contract in my neck of the woods $3.75 for mass x (over2500 yards or so) is right in there. the prices have all come down quite a bit. when i look at basements, my bidding depends on how far i have to move the material or if it goes straight into the tipper. to dig for $3.75 and move and stockpile is a different deal. now you need a hoe plus a loader. still cheaper then hauling, depending on the dump site. our friggin landfill is up to $96 a load for a tandem load(12 yards) or structural fill and $50 bucks or so for screenables-(topsoil). most of the material here is pit run. so lot's of import and export. our market is different here and 210 sized hoes are between $150 and $165 an hour. some guys are working for $125 and $135. the arguement between t&m or bid could go on and on forever. if there are good plans and a well built scope of work bidding is the way to go. it seems that the plans are never very complete and we bid jobs and the client keeps saying "that's in the bid" anyways, good luck regards cd :usa:usa
wow $210 for a hoe that size, we charge $225 an hr for a 385, ig uess when you get into bigger sized jobs the price drops.
we do alot of not to exceed t and m. it seems to work well. the one thing is with type of structured pricing is you need a fixed scope because the client always adds more work and then you go over budget and they whine or don't pay. keeping the jobs separate and accurate timecards is the ticket. we try to get things signed every day as well.
Why would any customer pay your 375 for the job when this job only takes and hour and guys are charging 130 and hour? Sounds like your 245 over what the local clown is. Maybe I'm completely missing something or maybe customers arent asking contractors that charge hourly whats your best guess at how many hours its gonna take you charging hourly. Hell if I was charged 375 for an hours worth of work I'd be pissed if I found out I could have had someone at 130 an hour. Then again when you tell your customers that your only charging 3.75 per yard maybe they dont understand quite how much dirt you can move in an hour and obviously 3.75 sounds alot better than 130 an hour. Seems like there might be some details left out to make it sound a little better.
most of my customers want to know beforehand...what the "walkaway" cost is...in other words, when i'm ALL said and done, what's the number they're going to write down on my check. they tell me the scope of the work, i tell them...and unless they change the scope of the work, my bill will be for that value. works for me, and them....after 30+ years in this, i'm fairly confident in my ability to produce "x" an hr....and 9 times out of 10, when bidding against somebody that says "this is my price per hour"...i'll walk away with the job because the owner know his end cost. being in the biz this long? unless is was an emergency repair with a LOT of variables, "who knows what's buried here, a zillion utilities in the road, etc."......if i was on the paying end of this scenario, i would NEVER hire a contractor by the hour.
missing something so the guy for $130 an hour is going to mobe a 210 in, move 100 yards and mobe out? all for $130? of course you are missing something. most of us add a mob and demob into this figure. the numbers are different in dayco's part but i thing most of us know the deal. mass ex and such for $3.75 is doable. with as much experience as he has i am sure je knows where to draw the line. let's remember excavator come and go faster than truck drivers drinking slurpees and cops eating donuts. if i had a 100 yard stockpile that i needed moved how would i handle it? move it on site? ok. one way. load it out 2 ways. again different pricing. it alll depends on the machines available, how much material is to be moved and how far. if you are digging and stockpiling with a hoe only eventually the material will be double swapped, processed for backfill, dozed out for fill, or backfilled. i tend to use subs that may not be the cheapest but get the job done without bitching and whining and don't cry the next day about wanting a check. i don't think it is worth an arguement over. regards, cd
First off there was nothing at all said about moving machines in or out or anything along those lines or even transporting spoils or anything past moving 100 yards. So C.D. in that aspect I don't think that I'm missing something. The statements that were made were bluntly I charge this an hour or I charge this a yard. The other statement was that using a 210 sized excavator I can either charge you 375 to move this 100 yards of dirt or 130 an hour. Now the way its been figured in this posting is that it should not even take an hour to move 100 yards of dirt so yet again explain to me how it is cheaper by the yard. There are obviously many ways to handle the moving of 100 yards I'm sure we are all in agreeance on that aspect but for this scenario 130 is still cheaper for the customer, and until you spell out every last little detail about how its being moved and whats happening after its moved I can't see how a generalized statement of a per yard price is cheaper!
not interested
It's easier to pay people by the hour IMO but a contract can bring you more dedicated employees. Hourly employees seem more likely to leave with little notice and don't seem to care as much about their work.
With all the discussion about costs of doing a job, large or small, hourly rate or bid job. Unless you have been to the job site, visited with the owners about what is to be moved where, how could you determine if one person's price is better than the other when the specifics of the project don't seem to be clear. It would seem to be comparing apples to cucumbers. We get tangled up in this type of question all the time from customers even though we are in a much, much, smaller end of the excavation/dirt work business. I agree with CD about the $130.00 charge, how could you move in a small hoe much less a large machine, do the work and then move back out. Not trying to be confrontational, but I can't hardly move into a job with a 322 Bobcat excavator and dig 50' of electrical line for that. I'm trying to come up with a price now to do cable drops for a local company. They would prefer a "quoted" price, but with all the extenuating conditions I'm not sure I can do that. Anybody have any ideas on this type of thing, it's new to us?
contract is by far the best. Look at plans do site visit, talk with general/owner. and price, everyone knows were everyone stands no surprizes. right now where we're at mass ex. is starting at $4/yd and up, plus hauling plus moblization. hourly rates are good hear with 200 going for $190/hr and 290 for $240/hr. From personal experience anyone that works hourly is shorting them selves big. On most jobs I figure work for 2hrs get paid for 3hrs.
Yair... And that's a good attitude to business?
If you provide good workmanship, finish on time people will pay whatever it takes.
Wow, sounds like I need to move to Saskatoon.
you will find, a "seasoned" contractor is very reluctant to take a job by the hour unless he knows there are a bunch of unknown variables in his way. if the job is straight forward, he'll bid "total cost/completed cost" and do one of two things...he'll make money at what he's doing if given the job....or occupy the hourly guy with cheap work, working by the hour that has zero idea what his costs are, what he's capable of producing is....and put money in his pocket either way.
I run my excavator for a lot of farmers and bye the hour works for what i do plus they supply all the fuel my unit arrives full of fuel and must leave full of fuel. I also charge a flat rate depending on distance for moving my equipment. I've had it before when a few farmers in a close area will get together and split the transport/fuel costs as i can just walk my excavator from one quarter of land to the next this works good for cleaning out water drainage and burying stone piles and so on but i have to keep good records of how much time i spend on each persons land i have never had problems going this route. However the R.M's in my area want to work off quotes most of this work is putting in culverts breaking out beaver dams and so on no real precision digging i always quote on the higher side for these jobs as their is more variables for problems when dealing with R.M's or other contractors and lets face it time is money if i'm sitting waiting for councilors arguing over the way a job is going to be completed i'm not making money. I don't have a preference for either hourly or contracted work I've done good on both you just really need to know who you are working for and do your research before you put that quote in and make damn sure you take all unforeseen problems into account as once you get into trouble any of those over runs come out of your profit and once that profit is gone it starts coming out of your pocket I've never lost money on a job yet but i have walked away even a few times LOL.
Another thing to account for is the time you have to wait for payment. Something that is common practice around here when submitting a lump sum price on a job is add interest ahead of time, as most generals pay in the 60-90day period.
Very good point i like cash on the hood deals better though most of my work has me being paid before i leave the job site when doing work for a farmer i lay out what the deal is with fuel and my rate and ill give a very rough estimate of what the bill will be if requested bye them and also that i need to be paid as soon as work is completed. I've never had a complaint on any of my policies most farmers in my parts work under the same rules when using their equipment to help one another farming anyways and everyone knows how uncomfortable and difficult it can be to collect debts. R.M's generally pay within a couple weeks to a month so i guess that would be on par with a general contractor. What kind of projects are you working on in saskatoon Matt?
Digging it. 1st you have to say this would you rather pay a flat rate or a variable rate? Yes to move that 100 yds it would cost 375 but we do not know how long it would take him, but you pay the same no matter how long it takes. And to be honest sometimes moving a stockpile take more time than expected due to truck breakdowns and machine troubles or owner troubles. Where as you are paying by the hour for the excavator to sit there. So if the job will take more than 2.9 hours you have made money on the deal. Typically We would hire guys for the set contract price. I think it give incentive to complete the job sooner. If you pay by the hour too many guys ride the clock as explained in the initial post of this.
All commericial. condos, site prep, some sewer and water, lots of work for the city right now.
You work by the hours for income stability, and making sure every hour you spent on a job is worth it. On the other hand, I suggest you should go for contract if the bid is high and the project doesn't require too much time.