My first post after the board is open for business, and I'm not sure where to post it! It doesn't just fit into on type of equipment, so perhaps it's a "personel" question... Different manufactures have used different contol patterns on their equipment. I spent years on Case backhoes with pedal swing. When I got on a 580C that had John Deere pattern joysticks, it was like starting all over again (for a few hours). Then when I first got on an excavator it was back to school once again. My first skid loader experience was on a New Holland, and I was constantly banging the bucket down when I wanted to stop--my left foot was trying to press the brake pedal, but the brake pedal was in the backhoe. Got on a Case skidder and let my feet rest but had to wiggle my wrists. Ran a 310 Case highlift with a dry clutch, 3 speeds forward and one reverse, and steering brakes. Got on a 450 and had to learn that. Got on a 941 Cat and had to not only learn how to move the tractor and steer with my feet, but found the bucket control rolls and dumps opposite of what I was accustomed to. So, to get to the question, how many control patterns are you accustomed to? And by that I mean, accustomed enough sit right down and be productive from the moment you start the engine. Things are becoming more standardized, so I'm sure the younger you are the fewer patterns you'll see in your career. Older operators are probably going to be able to name some really unique pieces. Just curious.....
I am going to show my age real quickly..........Case backhoe with 3 sticks and 2 pedals and sometimes an extendahoe lever, John Deere 2 stick, excavator two stick (called SAE), Ford 4 lever, IH 4 lever, Cat track loader controls, Cat rubber tire loader controls (different from track loader), Case track loader, IH track loader, Komatsu newer style with power shift and steering on one lever, Bobcat-New Holand and misc. "standard skid steer controls (2 travel levers, 2 function pedals), Mustang skid steer (T bar), JCB and new Cat skid steer with all travel functions on one handle and all boom and bucket functions on the other handle, Case skid steer (all on two handles but different from previous).........then to really foul up the works, get on a Gradall..........oh yea, Cat, John Deere, Huber, and Gallion road grader........most of them are different too. Digger, you did a good job of making me feel old!
For quite a while the only thing I ran was my JD 310 hoe, it was the only thing I knew. I came across some free fill where there was a Komatsu excavator on site, you were to load yourself. First few buckets I tried to load I damn near tore the tailgate off my truck! The boom and dipper controls were reversed. I have a lot of respect for guys who can jump from one machine to another and make the pattern transition almost immediately.
The person i was working for this summer could hop from his Akerman H10 blc excavator, to his D3 cat dozer, to the john deere 410 backhoe and run all them very well. He's also only 25, but has been in the business since 19. He would often switch from the dozer to the backhoe on a job we were doing and didn't hesitate. After one has used a type of machine for a while you get used to it, even if you're switching from one style control to another. Myself, i've run a backhoe once or twice, and used a Komatsu mini excavator a few times. For me, it's hard going from an excavator to a backhoe, just because i am currently not running the machines very often. Steve- do you still have that backhoe or did you sell it?
I sold that machine to purchase my Cat 248, more suited to my current needs.
Ther was a guy that was doing the water and sewer conections in the street for us and did not have a backoe just a cat excavator I told him he could use my 580 case but said he could not work the controls to good.I can go both ways on the controls.
my backhoe and my excavator, both use the same pattern. (SAE- backhoe style) i have used ISO -excavator controls, just takes a minute to refresh.
I started out on a back hoe when I was 13 or 14 on a 416 Cat and a JD 310. Then dad bought a 3550 Ford hoe with the controls changed like a case with a hand swing the left lever runs the bucket left middle runs the stick, the right middle runs the boom and the right runs the swing. I just bought a spare 4500 and its backwards and taking a bit to get used to it. Its left control runs the stick the middle left is the boom and the middle right runs the bucket and the swing is in the far right like mine. Its thrown me for a loop but I can hop from a TLB to a wheeled or tracked excavator no problems. The older wobble stick Case gives me some troubles the way the levers are mounted to the linkages. I operate a few track loaders that are pedal steered hydrostatic like a Cat and a D66 Komatsu. I get alot of calls to come operate older machines like the older International Drott loaders. I also operate alot of older excavators with foot and hand controls. The Drott Cruz air(Giraffe) The Cruz Air Is a PITA to operate, one left pedal on some swung it, ran the stick and the other foot runs the bucket and the right hand runs the hoist. Most cranes vary from one to the other. Dad tought me when i first started to clear my mind and not think about it.
Yeah, once your hands and feet learn what to do you can clear your mind. I have trouble telling people what sticks move what on the various patterns I know how to run, but as soon as I sit down I'm able to run them. I knew a guy who was accustomed to running something else, I don't recall what it was, but he bought a 580 Case and couldn't get used to it. His answer was to get underneath and switch the hoses around where they attached to the control valve. His nephew jumped on it one day and smashed the door of his truck, because he forgot the controls were switched around. An old friend of mine who was in the Pacific during WWII told me about an itneresting piece they found there. It was a big steam powered dredge that the Japanese had left behind. It took two guys coordinating the controls to run it, and they were on different levels of the machine.
Digger Jim I forgot to add the hardest thing to get used to when we were closing the land fill dad and I ran our 762 burnt out the clutch pack. I was used to having all the cotrols the shifter, hoist, ejector and elevator on the right side. plus you sat on the left of the cab. I had run it since i was 15 and then we had to rent a 412 Dresser. You sat in the middle behind a long nose and had the shifert on the left in a staggered patern and the hoist was in the right spot but the ejector lever was backward s with no detent on the dumping side loats of passes id not dump in the right spot. after a day though I was able la lay down layers up to 2 tenths at a time. Talking about the dredge in the 70's before i was hatched the Tenn Tom waterway came through here. A friend of mine was an oiler on the mighty Empire dredge. It was a steam shovel powered by bunker oil. the hoist and crowd was in the upper deck and the lower deck was the swing and dump. After the Tenn Tom was done they sent i up north it was retired in the earliy 90's I it was used in the later years of the Panama canal when it was made. Wayne got to work up from oiler to crowd and hoist operator. He said when he was on the lower deck to make the hoist man mad he'd dump while the other man was crowding. Im trying to get a few pictures of the Empire from some folks I know. ALso on the same job they had 2 HD41's pulling the almighty Holland Loader.
Digger,I like your style..............showing pics of things we would all like to forget.I would deny everything if someone tried to tie me to that pic of the 580 against the house but we have all done things like that and if we are running equipment those things are going to happen.My main concern is always that noone gets hurt as a result of it. I have been operating most of the time since 1960 when I went to Fort Leonard Wood heavy equipment school.I have pics of myself on a TD18 in Germany in '61/'62. My question to you and others is "what would you rather run if you have a choice"? I prefer a dozer I think.........I enjoy running most things but don't like to run them too many days in a row.I like variety. LOL I think I just got layed off today,not sure yet..boss will call me later to let me know,we got about 18" of snow this weekend. Ron
Thanks, Ron. I took those pictures to remember my mistakes, and believe me there are plenty more that I didn't have a camera along for! I posted some of them here because, in large part, mistakes are what we learn from, and it sure is better to learn from someboy else's than to have to make them all yourself. (BTW, there's a handful I haven't posted yet of something I did that was *REALLY* stupid....) "I have been operating most of the time since 1960 when I went to Fort Leonard Wood heavy equipment school.I have pics of myself on a TD18 in Germany in '61/'62." I still have the couple of dump trucks, the dozer, and the grader I was operating in '61/'62. They say "Tonka" on the side. (Actually, those may have been my most profitable years, but that's beside the point...) "My question to you and others is "what would you rather run if you have a choice"? " That's a great question. Actually, that question is probably worthy of it's own thread. Since it was your idea, I'll defer to you to start it as a "new thread", if you wish.
Umm , lots . Have been running various pieces of equipment for some 30 of my 39 years . First started out backfilling services with a Warner and Swasy Hopto 900B , which had four levers and two sets of pedals . Then came packers , scrapers , trucks and graders . Some backhoe , and lots of bobcating . For the last several years though , it's been pretty much just a 140g/h graders . I mostly do road coring and gravelling . Having become a finish grader operator , I'm pretty comfortable in jumping in or on just about anything . Never did the paver thing , or cranes , and I doubt I ever will as operating cranes would require me to go back to school , and pavers .... well , although I like the smell of asphalt , it gets into your skin and permeates everything . As for a favorite , that would probably be the grader . Especially cleaning snow from parking lots . It's usually done while everyone is sleeping so you can go full out , yet have to be extra careful not to hit anything ( cold steel snaps real easy ,or does lots of damage ) . After six or so hours of just motoring , it becomes more like machine ballet . Everything gets stretched to your limits . i know it sounds corny , but you really become one with the machine . The feel , the sound , the reaction times seem to just blend together . I remember doing a 17 hour snow removal shift where i must of been flying on adrenalin , cause when I parked the machine and went to stand up ,my legs just gave out and had to catch myself . My knees were just shaking , and it took seveal minutes before I could climb out of the cab . But what a rush . These Toys for big boys are just soooo addictive . Rob
We have a JD570B that I run once in a while but it seems that we are always so busy that we end up giving the processing to the paving companies so I can remain available for dozer work etc. I know the feeling of being in sync with your machine....it seems like I have spent half my life waiting for a John Deere to change directions!! I do enjoy the fine grading aspect of running dozers and graders because not everyone can do it and it does command the respect of your peers. I often work alone and I almost prefer it as you have complete control of the outcome.It is satisfying to learn that the job took what it scaled out for within a ton or two when it is finished. Ron
Thanks Digger242j,I will start it as a new thread. I much prefer to remember other peoples mistakes............seems like I learn so much more from them,don't you think? LOL
Here we have an old Case farm tractor with a DEcelerator on the left foot, and the brakes on the right. It is a great control scheme for the way you run a farm tractor, flat out most of the time and chop it occasionally to do some tight manuvering, backing, etc. Also we have an SAE control backhoe. So when my friend got himself an old Ford TLB, I thought cool. I can show him how to use this thing real good and it will be fun to run some (comparitively) modern equipment. As you know I am sure some of the Ford backhoe controls are on opposite hands as the SAE. And the real getter was the loader controls which has an ACcelerator on the left foot! This was too much for me, as soon as I put that thing into a dirt pile I kept whacking that throttle wide open! Could not control it. I have a really hard time with that sort of thing. Birken
The small amount of time I've spent on dozers has been on Komatsus, with a decelerator. It does take some getting used to, especially when you go for long periods in between. I don't think I've ever seen an accelerator at the left foot. That would screw me up too.
Lets start with dozers Cat D5M, D6M Finger tip steering with a thumb flip for forward and reverse and push buttons for speed Cat D6R Horizontal joystick for steering and twist the joystick for forward and reverse. Cat D5G Hystat Joystick controls for forward/reverse and steering, joystick controls for 6-way blade. Cat D3C Slide lever for 3 forward and 3 reverse speeds. Foot pedals for steering John Deere 450/550/650E Slide lever for 3 forward and 3 reverse speeds. Foot pedals for steering John Deere 450/650/700H Joystick controls for forward/ reverse/steering with buttons on joystick for speed increase/decrease EXCAVATORS Basically only two ways: Cat controls(SAE) or John Deere controls Seperate foot pedal for cleanup/grading bucket. Electric switch for hydraulic pin grabber for quick swithing of buckets. LOADERS Two stick and one stick loader control. Most of your larger loaders will have two stick controls. I use cat controls on a daily basis running excavators but on occasion I will have to run a backhoe with JD controls. I can do it without problem because of the physical location of the levers doesn't seem to confuse me. If I go from an Excavator with cat controls to one with JD controls it will take me a good 1.5 hrs to be somewhat efficeint. My rule is if you have to think about what your hands are doing you are not experienced enough. LANDSCAPE TRACTORS Too many to even think about mentioning. Kubota and John Deere are by far the best to operate though. Jeff
The only things that has thrown me on an excavator was a friend bought an E70B Cat and it was set up with tlb controls. I wasnt real used to it. The next thing is Asian controls where your crowd is where your swing is and the swing is in the crowd position. Its like an old crane. My spare backhoe I just bought has the true Ford 4 stick controls they are a bit od to me, mine is set up like a 3 stick case with the with a swing lever on the right. the new has a completely different arrangement other than the swing lever. I tink the maddest Ive ever been was running a newr micican loader. It had an auxhilaryvalve. set and all. THe levers were nearly on the dash for the boom and bucket and they werent but about an inch and a half long maybe two inches. there wasnt much room betwwen them and they were in the middle of all the other remotes levers. It was hard to get the hang or feel of it. The self level wasnt hooked up so gettin it levelby sight was hard with the short levers. That was one of the only machines i tried to purposely tear up. The same job had an older 980 Cat on it but they wanted to keep the hours down on it. I could run it all day with out being as fatigued as operationg the Volvo/Mich. They later rented a newer Volvo that had 2 levers and it was fine no over reaching, the levers and they hade some space between them.
Taylor,I agree on those Volvo/Michigans about those bucket levers.They are so close that you jamb your social finger in between the controls when you are using them.What do engineers do all day? The L70 and L90's are just about the size that pipe crews would use and the visibility out the front of those machines is horrid!! You really need to be able to see your man in the trench if you are doing pipe work with it.........actually,visibility is important for safety almost anywhere.Those hoses that loop up in front of you are right in the way. What do engineers do all day?
RonG I think the most difficult thing about that blind awkward thing was when youd dump and the levers being close together youd take out a side board on a truck orgrading the stone for a subgrade. i kinda had to pinch the hoist control to to single it out from the other valves. I very much wanted to ad extensions to them but the boss never let me. I told him Id rather run an old open cab rear steer Michigan where you sat between the arms. Later they let me stay in the 980. I also liked our Dresser except for the cab that sat on the front half
I agree with you Taylor and regarding those Hough/Dresser loaders that steered in the back........ the Case loaders did it too,I cannot see one advantage to that configuration.There is not one situation that I can think of that the conventional articulated loader could not do better,in some cases much better.It took a half acre to move over the width of the bucket with those things. I happen to have very good peripheral vision and one company I worked for had a Case W20 that I ran a lot and I used to scare myself in a sharp turn when I saw that engine nacelle out of the corner of my eye sneaking up on me.That never failed to give me a jolt and I never got used to it and I ran that loader for 7 or 8 years.
First time I used a Hough loader, I couldn't figure out why I wasn't lining up with my truck to dump the load, something was definately strange going on. I finally got the truck loaded and it wasn't until I climbed down out of the cab that I saw I was hooked to the front half instead of the rear. Definately a different way of doing things.
These are sure interesting comments. I've seen Hough's before, but not while running, & I've never operated one. So without that experience I'm having a hard time figuring this out. Can someone describe in layman's terms what is so different about this thing, or post a pic? Thanks.
I don't have any experience with Houghs specifically, but from the discussion I take it that they are similar to Case's articulated loaders--that is to say, that rather than the wheels turning at the ends of the axles, steering is accomplished by the whole machine bending in the middle, hence the name "articulated". Some models have the operator's position behind the pivot point, and others have the operator seated in front of that point. What makes the difference, is that if you're sitting behind it, you can look forward and see which direction the front end is pointed, so you know where you're going. If you're seated in front of that pivot point, you need eyes in back of your head to see which direction your hind end is sending you....
Digger Steve is right on the head about the Hough loaders. Case,Hough, IHC Payloader, Dresser, Kramers, and several others had the steering on the fron half. ANd the rear half hindged. I always hought something was sneaking up on me out of the corner of my eye. In a Cat or Komatsu you sit on the back half and the front half moves. That real nice with pallet forks or moving pipe. You can catch the edge of the object with the fork corner and steer left or right and the front half moves. you can adjust the load like that. On the front seaters you have to use different manuvers. Most every one builds their machines with the cab on the rear. Michigan came out with one better they had a dual articulation the drivers seat sat in the middle and it had an articulation on the front and rear. They didnt sell alot of them either. I guess Im a glutton for punishment when I see an old machine Ill usually end up making new friends and operating the old machines for a day or so lol. Im afflicted. I never grew up my sand box just got bigger.
Taylor and Digger,your comments and observations are right on target..........the Case sales people used to declare that the Case configuration could go in tighter quarters than the conventional articulated machines and I heard that early in my career and it was always on my mind in a tight spot,heh,heh,glad I'm in a Case. Well,I was never convinced and the price I had to pay was always a crick in the neck to see how my other half was doing. They were a lot of extra work in my book and never my loader of choice if I had a choice. Taylor,the older Trojan 8000 was double articulated too.I can't ever remember seeing one in person but their brochures had pics of them.............nice V12 Detroit engines too. I ran a Trojan 4000 for many years with an 853 Detroit in it......what a sound!! You could hear it for miles. ) Ron
WE have a hough and I really don't care to be sitting on the front of the articulation.I have driven both and prefere to sit on the rear.Reason being is you can see where the machine is going rather than you turning one way and having to worrie about the ass end of it.
My 580 has the SAE style, and I can jump off of it and on to an excavator and back without a problem. However, I've been told that to try and jump from one *excavator* (with ISO controls) to a second excavator (with SAE controls) will mess you up. Well, yesterday I had a chance to test the difference. Yesterday I agreed to help a plumber buddy of mine. His Takeuchi (SP?) mini-X was already on site. All I had to do was run it. As soon as I got on it I knew something was wrong. It has SAE controls. That's the first excavator I've run with SAE controls, and I've spent a lot of time the past several years using ISO. It took me literally, an hour yesterday to get comfortable on the SAE. What was really frustrating was that if it had been my 580 I could've done it in my sleep. :Banghead (To make matters worse, the gas service line was in the same ditch as the old sewer we were looking for, and it only took about 15 minutes to get to *it*. Fortunatly there was no harm done, but the pucker factor was pretty high.) I get to go back tomorrow and backfill the hole. It should be interesting to see whether I'll be comfortable right off the bat, or need to adapt again, and it'll also be interesting to see if I have trouble jumping back on to the ISO style Kobelco next week.
I am fine with either pattern but I prefer SAE. The first hr is always a little unnerving when switching between the two. Ten years ago I often wondered why OSHA or someone did not step in and require one or the other as an industry standard. Nowadays it seems that most excavators up to 45,000 lbs come equiped with a pattern changer so it's not as much of an issue with 4 yr old and newer machines. While I have never been a party to any accidents caused by operators being unfamiliar with control patterns I have heard of serious accidents caused by this. I suspect that many of these incidents could have been avoided simply by not putting an operator who may be excellent on one pattern but never even felt the other into a situation where other peoples lives are at stake, like a major sewer or water main project. I understand there are circumstances when this is just not avoidable for some. For me this is unacceptable, I would rather loose a days production or better yet stick that guy on a hoepack or loading trucks from top of a stockpile until there comfortable. A good hand will usually pick it up in an hr or two. A Chapman
Just in case anybody was wondering.... I've been back and forth between the ISO machine and the SAE machines. (I just checked and in my prior post I had the names confused.) The first SAE machine I got on was the Kobelco mini and even though I had the option of switching the pattern I chose not to. I knew that I couldn't switch the pattern on the bigger Kobelco, so I decided to try and get accustomed to jumping back and forth. I've gone from one pattern to the other several times now, although not on the same day yet. What I've found is that the first ten minutes or so are really difficult, on whichever pattern I'm switching to. For some reason, it seems like it helps to hold the controls with just my thumb and fingers, rather than with my whole hand. Perhaps it has something to do with needing to consciously keep hold of the controls, which in turn keeps me more conscious of what each of them does. I dunno. I've also noticed that for any given combination of control inputs, I need to do a number of repititions before I get comfortable. For instance, once I've dug a few bucketfuls (coordinating the raising of the boom with the crowding of the dipper and curling of the bucket), it seems to come naturally again. Even once I've done that for a few minutes, if I then try to make a pass pushing out with the teeth to level a spot on the ground (coordinating lowering the boom and extending the dipper while curling the bucket out), it just doesn't happen like it should. I need to do a couple of repititions of *that* before it gets to be second nature the way it should be. I have to say that I don't *ever* feel as comfortable on either pattern as I had been when I was just running the SAE machines. There have just been a couple instances each day when the machine did something I'm not altogether sure *I* wanted it to do. I'm not positive it wasn't because my hands momentarily got confused without my even being aware of it. I imagine I'd get over that after a couple days straight of just staying on one type. It is kind of an interesting way to explore the boundaries of your personal limitations though...
OK, so ISO and SAE are the industry names for the controls, around here everyone calls them Cat or Deere patterns. Which is which?
Cat is S.A.E. Deere is I.S.O. I'm not sure but I believe I.S.O. stands for international standard of operation. A Chapman
Or in other words, SAE is what many people would refer to as "excavator" pattern, and ISO is what many (or at least me), would call "JD backhoe" pattern (because I was always differentiating it from Case backhoe, sine I went probably 20 years without ever really learning how to run an excavator.) Since I obviously had trouble remembering which was which I came up with a simple memory aid. (Funny, I can't remember the proper term for "memory aid" either. But I digress...) From now on I'm going to think of SAE as "Standard...Ahhh? (what the heck was it again?--Oh yeah!)...Excavator!" pattern. Even though I suspect it stands for "Society of Auotomtive Engineers".
JD controls? I worked w/ quite a few excavators and track loaders and didnt have a prblem switching btween the two but most the excavators had the same controls which most guys called jd controls but some would call them cat controls. I still dont know what the diff is but I do know that I cannot run a Case 1080 widetrack with stock controls no matter what I do. What I am used to and what all the cats and jd's had was two sticks left hand was rake and swing and right was bucket and boom, most had pedals for travel and sterring but some like a cat 215 had a stick to steer and the old bantam was just weird. My question is: what are jd and what are cat controls on an excavatror? ( just in case I get asked by a potential employer.)
JD controls are left hand main boom and swing, right hand dipper stick and bucket. Cat controls are left hand dipper stick and swing, right hand main boom and bucket.
Tell me about it - After breaking in to the trade on this BANTAM it was a pleasure to hop into a brand new KOEHRING in 1985 .
for safety purposes...all new excavators should come out SAE. or have the capability of switching over to JD with a push of a button. there's enough danger in our line of work without having somebody with 10,000 hrs. running JD controls, and putting him on a SAE machine and men down in the hole.
Im competent enough on just about any new piece of machinery after about an hour or so. mainly i use sae excavator, new case 2 stick, old case 3 stick with foot swing, all kinds of different dozer controls, material handlers, etc. Most good operators can switch between machines without much trouble. I'm best with an excavator though.
I have no problems with SAE JD and 4 levers, but the first co. I work for had all of them and sometimes I had to switch a few times a day. I like JD better you can take one hand off a control and still do something. Now dozers I have ran the old schools with the clutches in front and the new ones, but like early 80s they had the ones with the clutches/brake that you ran on your left, man those kill me. It doesn't help I don't run them much and ours only brakes one way unless your cutting then the side with the clutching alone will turn you, POS D8L.
Silly to have two "standards" Hi guys, I'm an old JD backhoe guy - I've run JD's since 1974 or so... 350 and 450 Crawler-Loader-backhoes, 310's, 410's, 510's, 490's, 590's, 690's... you get the idea... they're all the same and I got really good with them. Then one day, about 10 years ago, I had to run a Cat Excavator - I don't even remember what model it was - a 215, I think - anyway, I could NOT dig a hole with that thing!!! The controls were just WRONG!!! After a while the air was just BLUE with cusswords!! I tried for over an hour and finally just gave up... It was really embarassing to let my totally inexperienced young helper get the hang of the thing in about a half hour, but he didn't have the JD pattern branded into his brain, so he started from scratch. I have since tried, on several different Cats, to learn their pattern, but the JD pattern is impossible for me to un-learn. Anyway, I think that it is silly, and dangerous, to have two "standard" excavator control patterns - whoever is in charge of these types of things should sit down and decide on ONE standard pattern - I have no idea how they would decide, but it could be as simple as flipping a coin. Sorry for the long rant. Steve
as long as they have the selector swtich, which all new machines do, that having 2 paterns is fine. Different strokes for different folks i guess, some love JD, some love CAT, let the operator decide.
Nope Cat is ISO Deere is SAE
Maybe this is a dumb question but - why were/are there so many patterns? Did each company really think it had a better way or was it just to keep us loyal to the one brand we learned on?
IM competent on SAE and ISO controls, doesn't take too long for me to refresh. Hystat and steering clutch dozers are pretty quick to pick up on. Wheel loaders and Backhoes I'm decent with ( may not be an awesome operator when it comes to grading, but I'm competent ) I like the way the cat track loaders run, though it's been over a year since i ran one, so I don't know how long it would take to get used to turnin with my feet again. By far the most awkward controls I ever learned would be Gradall controls, because not only are the completely switched from Cat controls, the process of digging is done differently too. It's really weird to get a hang of at first.
a guy that lives near me had JD backhoes as long as i can remember...decided to look for a newer(used) machine about 15 yrs ago...the best deal - $ - was on a Case 580D...so he bought it. He couldn't get the hang of the Case controls...so I ran it for him on a couple jobs till he could take the time to get used to them. He never could...but his solution was to run it with his arms crossed...and he did it for all these years that way. He still has the machine, but is basically retired now
As odd as that may sound, I have a friend who did exactly the same thing.
I also talked to a guy once that had to do that to run a machine. Must look funny to see, but you gotta do whatever works.
I had 3 excavators and a backhoe attachment at one time years ago and I was proficiently able to jump off of one and onto another without missing a beat. Hein Werner C12 with hand and foot controls (boom and swing on hands, bucket and stick on feet) to a Drott 35 with hand and foot controls (boom and stick on hands, swing and bucket on feet) to a Komatsu PC200 SAE pattern to a Woods backhoe with case/jd control pattern. Learning the sae pattern was the hardest because it was the last in line and mirrored the case/jd pattern on the boom and stick. SAE is by far the most intuitive and efficient pattern to operate. It only makes good sense to put the boom and bucket on the same control stick. I'm thankful that I'm not dancin' with the old Drott and Hein Werner any more. Foot controls suck unless they are for attachments or travel functions!
Growing up they had a old John Deere backhoe that was mounted out on the side of some truck tandems for cleaning ditches on the cranberry marsh and pulled by a 450c, I think I was 13 and that was the coolest. Ranitmost of the summer and now I can not run the Cat controls at all, acouple of years ago had a mini we rented and just could not get it. Now i ask to make sure it has the JD backhoe style other wise its ugly. I learned to run skidsteer with Case hand controls and don't mind the Cat hand controls since we got a Polaris ASL I can go back and forth no problem but can't get the hang on the foot controls. Our first skid was a New Holland with the foot controls and had to buy the conversion to hand controls. Haven't run dozer hardly at all but alot of time with loaders, fortunatly all have been ones that you sit on the back. I like the single lever better than the two stick. It probably helps to be on all different brands starting out, maybe you don't get so set in what you like. I think that if different patterns are going to be out there they sould make it easy to switch to keep the operator happier and hopefully safer.
Since it's bound to come up again... In another thread, the name of the different control patterns came up. I'm sure it won't be the last time that it does. In the interest of once and for all providing an easy reference as to which is which, I scanned the 2-sided, reversable placard that comes with a Kobelco 35 excavator. A picture is worth a thousand words. The first one is the ISO pattern, (which Kobelco on the placard calls BHL)--dipper on the right hand, boom on the left. The second is the SAE pattern--boom on the right hand, dipper on the left.
Digger, I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say; I am very much not sure I agree with Mr Kobelcos interpretation. The lower pattern is as CAT's come from the factory, and are required to be ISO for internaternational sales. The upper pattern, as shown on our CAT 301.8, Kubota KX 161-3 and Yanmar 27-3 is SAE...or better known as John Deere pattern...but then again its been a long week ...Anybody? I'm very happy to be wrong
Well am pretty good with the SAE config. Boom- Bucket in the right hand. But when it comes to JCB 3CX Cross action. Game over. Ross
I have run over the years case 3stick john deere 4 stick, Prentice 120 logloader 4stick and 2 stick both with foot swing, leibher 942 with cat controls and foot swing brake, cat,komatsu,johndeere graders,komatsu , johndeere, case, cat, dresser dozers , johndeere 595 rubber tire excavater , case ,bobcat, and cat skidsteer,and several different plow trucks with 1 and 2 wings, sander etc. wheeew! I think i got em all
SAE Standards Document Number: J1177 Date Published: December 2006 Title: Hydraulic Excavator Operator Controls Issuing Committee: Mtc Sc5, Excavators Scope: This standard covers mobile hydraulic excavator controls and the specific arrangement and direction of motion for the primary controls. This standard applies to mobile hydraulic excavators as described in ISO 7135 - Earthmoving Machinery - Hydraulic excavators - Terminology and commercial specifications, and ISO 6165- Earthmoving Machinery - Basic Types - Vocabulary. Purpose This standard is intended as a guide for designing uniform two lever type operating controls for mobile hydraulic excavators, either wheel mounted or crawler mounted on independently reversible tracks. Product Status: In Stock File Size: 673K Control patterns (ISO or Standard)--The operating pattern of an excavator's joysticks. There are two predominant joystick patterns on compact excavators. When operating in the ISO pattern, the right-hand joystick controls the boom up/down function and the left-hand joystick controls the arm in/out function. With the "standard" pattern, these two functions are reversed.
OK, I'm gunna go even further out on the creaking limb. Just checking around and following on from the above post, Cats simulator webpage (page 6) can be read here: http://www.cat.com/cda/components/s...uredFileServletJSP?fileId=492187&languageId=7 So it would appear that ISO and SAE pattern are one and the same. When the dipper is on the right stick this is variously called "Optional" or "Backhoe Loader" or "Standard" pattern. The confuser is the reference to "Standard" pattern. My Yanmar manual states ISO = Standard and the other pattern (JD) as "Optional". The extract from SAE in the post above states the two patterns as ISO and "Standard" which is at odds with my Yanmar manual. It seems if you call the patterns ISO (dipper on left stick) and the "alternative pattern (dipper on right stick) you might be more apt to avoid confusion no matter where you are in the world. It would be good to see what other machines manuals state. It seems that many people understand "Cat" with the dipper arm control on the left joystick - and - "JD" with the dipper arm control on the right stick. It should be recognised that SAE does not hold much weight in some parts of the world.
So..while the ISO and SAE documentation I have found suggests the actual patterns are one and the same; some websites, such as Volvo's, state the controls can be switched between SAE and ISO???. I think this is marketing blurb based out of ignorance. Most training references state the controls as "excavator pattern/ISO" and "Backhoe Loader Pattern". So thats it, I'm confused...does anybody actually own a copy of ISO 7135? (I get this feeling I'm down a deep hole and still diggin)
What we really need is one of the CAT engineers to straighten us ditch diggers out. I'll bet somewhere in Peoria they have a copy of ISO 7135. C'mon guys. Quit laughing at us and tell us which is which. :beatsme
I object to being called a "Ditch Digger" (I'm pretty sure I've been called a lot worse though)
I have always known the cat control's a SAE. But who know's?
I have always said "cat controls" or "deere controls" But the new 410-G we just got has a switch for a pattern changer, it has a picture of a backhoe and a picture of an excavator. The backhoe being "deere" and the excavator being "cat" I played around with "cat" a bit, man is it weird. I am glad that its so easy to change it, I am planning to fool around and get a bit better at "cat"
At one time I had a Bobcat 331 and Hitachi eX60 at the same time. Sold the Bob Cat 331 when I bought the Komatsu pc150 but when I had both I could run both. Bob Cat was Deere and Hitachi was Cat. It took me about 10 to 15 minutes to make my mind rethink and I would have to be very slow and careful for a while till my brain caught up.
JD on backhoes, JCB cross on JCB backhoes, one lever loader control on front shovel including backhoes, two lever with 4 in 1 bucket, Cat controls on excavators, Hitachi EX pattern on old EX excavators, which is dipper movement where your slew usually is and slew where your dipper usually is on a cat control pattern. I can switch between all these with no problem. I've never used JD controls on an excavator, that would feel a bit weird to me i think. Also of course I'm able to use pedals and switches for breakers and other attachments.
JCB cross is the first pattern I ever learnt. I prefer that pattern on a backhoe to the JD pattern. All UK JCB backhoes have the JCB cross as standard.
Squizzy's reasoning makes a lot of sense and it explains why there is so much confusion around this topic. It's common that standards refer to each other. Too common in fact, it makes it hopeless to read. Deere has most of their operator manuals online, hopefully that could provide further information.
I recently bought my own used mini excavator, it's a ZX30U Hitachi, 2001. I'd never used an excavator before but when I was in the yard trying out a few various brands, the Hitachi controls seemed to be non-intuitive having the slew on the LH control as a forward and back motion instead of side to side as compared to CAT or Kobelco etc. Being new to this, I'm still learning, but my brain keeps wanting to use the normal CAT pattern, instead of the EX pattern, and my concern is that anyone (experienced or not) who uses this machine will have the same problem, and likewise I will have trouble switching to another CAT machine if I get too used to the EX patten. There is no SAE/ISO selector so the only options I have are to learn the EX or switch the hoses on the LH control to proper CAT. I've had a look and it looks straight forward with easy access. The only issue I can think of is the hyd flow rate to the dipper appears to be significantly more than the slew/swing, so am I going to screw up the flow rates by switching hoses on the joystick? (meaning I'll get severely fast slew and slower dipper action). Personally, I'd be surprised if the pilot valve flowrates on the joystick are different, but I thought it's worth asking the experts. Cheers for listening to a noob. Please be gentle.
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums truant! :drinkup
I can do fairly well with one. The one on my backhoe. I'm not sure I would use the term "competent" though.
After doing a bit of digging around here, I found a pretty good pic that outlines the 4 main patterns here View attachment 20142 So, based on that, my Hitachi has an SCM and I want to make it an SAE, and I can just leave the RH stick alone. It also seems most people prefer to change pipes down at the main junction block rather than at the base of the joystick. Correct?
Yes, that's correct. Underneath the cab is an access panel that is removed, and 4 lines are switched to convert to either pattern.
Theory is different to practice... First time on a TLB, the control pattern was shown, but I didn't look that often, found quite easy to get into. My brother struggled, but I think he could learn from me. First time on a Payloader, I damn near went and crashed the machine. Skidsteer, easy enough, Cat, so there was nothing to compare with, I would imagine that the Doosan, with pedal operated loader be a little harder... As for a keyboard, I'm ho-o-o-o-peless
Backhoe to excavator not a problem until someone changes excavator over to backhoe pattern. Then I'm buggered. Three/four stick, you must be on hourly rate not contract.
I find it is usually easier to switch the pilot lines over at the control bank . Pilot oil pressure is the same on all functions , all you are doing is changing the pattern . You cannot do it at the sticks as they have 6 lines each for feathering of some functions and swaping a couple will interfear with the feathering .
New patterns kill me. I look like a greenhorn everytime i get into something with different controls than what I'm used to. Cut my teeth on a 763 bobcat with foot/ hand controls and went to a JD 7775 skid...not so bad same same. Then went to a Case skidder and was all messed up. Dialed it after awhile but she was running me more than I was running her. After that went to a CAT 246b and I was screwed again. Now I love pilot controls. Same with a loader... started on an old IH whith a steering wheel and seperate boom/bucket sticks. Pretty standard. Went to a Kawasaki 115 with a joystick..loved it after i got comfortable with the bigger machine. Went then to a 544 JD with a single stick and back to a wheel and tree shifter...loved the single stick, missed the joystick steering and pushbutton shifter. Thank God I haven't been running other combos than a JD with wobbles and Xhoe.
Competent at One I like the John Deere Controls myself. So I would be competent at 1, if I got a good nights sleep.:drinkup
Why not do what was done over here and standardise it to one pattern, sae is what we use ,a lot lot safer and simpler
I started on a 350G Kato that had 4 levers mechanically linked to the valves . I converted it to 2 ISO lever control as it seemed like it would be easier to get used to. I modified all the linkages and it worked great except for the fact that the levers were now around 400mm long when they used to be around 800mm long, with the same springs in the valve banks. It was like spending every day in the gym. After that I got a couple of O&K excavators that had the MHI pattern or left lever did what right did on ISO and vice/versa. I converted the linkages on that as well to ISO. It seemed easier than re-learning. My next machine had BHL pattern, but had servo controls, easy fix. Just as a side note, I was sub-contracting to a company that had all O&K excavators from 2.5 to 65 ton. They had recently purchased the latest models at the time and they had servo controls in ISO patterns while the older machines had MHI patterns with mechanical inkages. Their operators seemed to have no trouble jumping from one machine to the other and back again several times a day without blinking an eye. I was pretty impressed given my total inability to change patterns at all. Baz
Guess you kinda of had to operate a Case 880 the first year they came out. Loading on a lowboy with over the rear ramps and hitting the cab tilt button. That gets your ass to bite the seat.
low bidder you ever operated an old drott 90
in england the common operating pattern for nearly all 360 excavators is the usual iso pattern and the only people who can break the mould are people who have driven other controls (such as jcb 3cx backhoe) and they are usually old hands from 1960-onwards used to various different controls like you boys. what gets me is these so-called brilliant operators that have never tried their hand at any other pattern or type of machine or vintage plant machine to experience what once was a much more challenging job which still got done to todays standards (or higher). that was plant operating.
On track machines, I for the last 15 years have been on all cat pattern rigs, I cant make the bucket hit the ground with a john deere pattern machine. rubber tire backhoes I run case foot swing ,excavator,(cat) and dynahoe pattern,. But 26 years ago when I broke in it was on a drott 40. And I ran bucyrus -erie track hoe controls for a while.(air over hydraulic). :usa
I have also ran the Cat style controls on about 90% of the excavators that I have operated over the years.It takes a while to get used to the JD configuration although I have always thought that the JD pattern was the more intuitive of the two. I worked for a contractor that had an Hitachi wired up as a John Deere for a few months and the next job I got after that I had a heck of a time trying to dig with his 320 enough to show him that I could do it.He even had his JD 410 configured as a Cat. I have not ever run a machine new enough to have the ability to switch patterns on the fly.I may have posted this before now that I think of it,humor me if that be the case Ron G
Pick one setting and stick with it.
I've gotta agree with that. All we where taught at college was "stick it on Iso and use it" NH110LB Backhoe, Servo Controls, Comfy seat and warm cab. Sorted. That said and Aside from Iso controls, I am quite proud to say I can drive a JD450A Lever steer and work the backhoe with some level of precision, I can work a ford 555 quite well (I suppose that's technicly Iso) and just about work JCB 3cx controls. Then theres the horrible miriad of telehandler controls (Matbros seem to have No two hydralic levers in the same place on each model, and everyone else does there own thing). Tractors arent too bad and Iso 360' Machines are good and simple. I was told a while ago by a freind that old Hymacs Used to have Pedals or Seprate Levers for the Dipper and Slew, Is that true?
I'm not a world famous operator But just take your time, you'll figure it out :duh:duh