This will be the biggest demo I have done (if I get the job) It is 2 story brick home, approximately 45'x85'. The first floor has tile throughout, 2nd is hardwood. All drywall on walls and ceiling. Slab in garage of course. metal roof. dirt crawl. one chimney. Hardest part is going to be making sure that all the material falls to the front, there is a cliff on the backside and if it falls over the cliff my butt will be in trouble!!! How much tonage is there here? How much of that is brick, concrete? and how much is wood, drywall. Hrs to sort through and separate brick, wood, metal/wire/copper with excavator? I have a 160 and a mini ex with hyd thumbs to work with. Also, any advice on how to ensure that it falls all to one direction? Thanks in advance...great forum here!
oops...forgot the pics....coming in a few...
As the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words. Will you be using cans or hauling to the dump? Will you be hauling the brick and concrete to a cheaper dump site? Are you alowed to leave any of the matireial on site?
cliff is to the right of the last picture
Will be hauling to the dump, and want to price hauling all material, including brick/conncrete to dump...dump rate is 75/ton. Nothing stays but the gravel in the driveway.
$75 a ton thats expensive. My overtonnage rate is $15, 30's have a 6 ton cap. There is going to be a lot of weight in brick and concrete off this house. I would separate the brick and concrete the best I could and find an inert site that takes material by the load if that is available to you, it will be much cheaper. If your competition is bidding it this way you will be way high hauling all that masonry and concrete to the landfill at $75 a ton.:cool2 For this house I would use 1200SF = 100 CY of debris. Your 30's will average 8-9 tons per can, some will be more and some will be less but average at that rate for residential demo. Is the house clear of personal items? If there are personal items in the house - clothes, furniture, etc then that will add more than you think to your demo yardage. As far as taking the house down, you'll need to work it from the front to the back, collapsing everything towards the front of the house. Take your 160 and start at one of the corners, bringing the house down and using the debris to build a ramp towards the back of the house. You will need to take care while you are doing this, crunching and compacting the material towards the center and front of the house. With your excavator raised up on the debris from the front of the house, take the rear roof and walls down - top to bottom pulling the debris back towards the front. Is the chimney a true masonry fireplace or prefab? If it's prefab then it's not an issue, just take it down with the rest of the structure. If it's a true masonry fireplace, then it will be a little trickier.
Not contributing anything at all towards the discussion, but why would anyone want to demo a house like that...?? From the photos it looks like a beautiful place and the brick construction should make it last better than your normal timber frame with aluminium siding. Just asking........
They basically bought the view...I think 1.2 million.
Back home I live in an area like that. Makes some kinda sense when you put it that way although TBH I could think of better things to spend that amount of money on ...........
Does 100 yds / 1200sg include the brick?
I gotta be careful about pricing brick/concrete seperate...legally its gotta go to the dump. I will be taking it elsewhere, but if the wrong people get involved then I will have go take it to the dump...and if I don't figure all of it going to the dump I could get in over my head.
I agree on the brick and concrete. Also $75.00 p/t is expensive, We are paying $50.00 p/t here in Aspen, Co. That demo debris is going to be way heavy and will kill you on your containers. We average about 7-8 ton per container. Off the top of my head I would throw 20-40's at it. Your tipping fee will probably be $1600-$1800 per 40 yard container, Although you will be using 30's more than likely b/c of the weight. The machine time shouldn't be all that much, figure maximum 50 hours at $135.00 per hour is $6750.00. Plus water and a laborer. And don't forget Mobe and admin costs. Feels like 45k or "so". I don't know your market and Am sure there are guys that would do it for less.
Just a thought...the used brick market is fairly substantial. Is there a possibilty of those used bricks being reclaimed by a company that specializes in that line of work where you are? Perhaps they could be used as a subcontractor to dismantle the bricks and haul them away saving you dollars in the long run.
I will be doing all the hauling w 18 yd dump trucks. This job is kinda out in the middle of nowhere...nearest city is 1.5 hrs away. I will have to look into recycling the brick.
Here's a link to a website regarding reclaimed brick that may be within your region... http://reclaimingthepast.com/reclaimed-brick.php
with what I face for dump fees...does $10/sq ft seem about right?
It would include the brick in volume but your weights would have to be figured in. Often times I will add a multiplier, say 5-10% upon looking at a job like this to the formula. Estimating demo is not an exact science, more of an art, and most times I go with my gut after walking the property and adding a multiplier to the formula. Unfortunately the ones here giving advice don't have that option of walking the property, so we'll give you our best guess. How far away is the landfill and are you using your trucks or hired? If you are using hired trucks, what is the rate per hour? Hired trucks can eat into the profit margin quickly, especially hauling demo. A roll-off box is a set expense, except for the tonnage, that you can estimate more accurately. Hired trucks by the hour opens another can of worms. Quick stop breaks for Mountain Dews and flirting with the cashier, general farting around, waiting to get loaded at the site and waiting to dump at the landfill can get into your profit margin quickly, as you will be paying for every minute of their time. If you use a roll-off service you are putting the liability of wasted time on their shoulders to bear.:cool2 Do you have the option of getting a roll-off service to give you a price per can with tonnage cap + overtonnage? If that's available then you can pencil down your costs more accurately. That way you can estimate how many cans you need, then estimate the tonnage (plus overages) and have a closer target to hit.
one truck is mine the other one/two will be hired. Probably a 1.5 hr round trip to dump. I will have to look into the roll offs. I think up here we pay per ton plus a flat rate....might be worth looking into. I found a 40lb/sq foot figure for the brick....sound right?
I try not to overthink a demo. I look at it and say I can either do that in a day or two days. I always tell the customer to pay my dumpster guy directly. My dumpster guy will haul 30 yards for $350 or $325. He does not complain or wine like all the dumpster driver/Co.s and I let the customer know that. Then whatever you think your daily rate is worth will be your price. That house is big and a bit intimidating being 30 feet high, but you can create a trash pile 10' and you'll have more reach and be able to distance yourself. I'd hate to be tied to a load count. Roll offs are the only way to go with the C&D. Dump trucking the concrete could work out if you had a close cheap dump, but I wouldn't unless it was too good to pass up. I'd have my feet on the reverse pedals when taking out the top. I personally would bid that for $3500 with the hauling to be paid seperate between the customer and roll-off guy. I would allow two days for that but it could be done in a day if you get two or more roll off companies hauling for you. Hope I'm not throwing you off, I just want to give you an honest answer.
Fastdirt, I don't see how you could make any money charging $3500 just for the demo. That's a large house with a lot of debris to load out not to mention the foundation walls, footings and those stem walls at the rear. I think he would have a minimum of 2 days to get the structure down, taking care not to spill any debris down the mountain. Load out would depend on how fast the trucks turn. Clients in my area always want a turn key price. It would be nice to be able to put the liability of hauling and disposal on the client as that is the most expensive part of residential demo but that doesn't work in my area. Tnc110, only having 3 dump trucks with a 1.5 hr round trip is only going to give you 15 loads a day in an 8 hr day. An 18 CY dump is only going to haul 12-13 CY of demo debris unless you are rough on the truck and pack it in there, in other words don't figure a full 18 CY of debris per truck. At 12 CY per truck, that's only going to give you 180 CY a day of hauling.
Same here...gotta be a turnkey price. I am bidding for a contractor who is bidding the whole project, including construction on new home. He is probably bidding against 2 other contractors. (this architect typically works off 3 bids) I am probably 1 of 3-5 excavators bidding. I want the job, but have enough other work to keep me busy...not going to lose my asss on this! I'd rather be high and roll the dice, then get the job and be sweating it. I was figuring 12 yds net on the 18 yd trucks. With your formula that puts me at about 45 loads. I'll figure on 60. There is some cross tie walls and deck that has to come off as well.
Thanks for all the help guys, probably going to throw a big number at it and roll the dice.
I would say that's adequate. There are 8 standard bricks more or less per sf plus mortar, so that sounds right. Here's what I would do - Figure your amount of debris. Estimate the tonnage of your hard core materials - brick, concrete, etc Figure your trucking time Figure your equipment time - demo and load out. Demo part goes quick it's the clean-up and load out that takes time. Figure your soft costs - do you need to buy a business license, permit, etc. Put your profit margin on it. The profit margin is where I always adjust my bids at. In this economy I would love to be getting 15% or more O&P combined but in order to get bids it's closer to the 9-10% range. The last two jobs I came in second on my O&P was 14.5%.:cool2 Just something to consider.
If you are bidding against a few other dirt guy's it will probably go to the low bidder. With that much material going to the landfill, your disposal and trucking will be the biggest portion of the job. Based on experience, picking all the wood out of the brick is going to take time. I would pencil 4 working days in for the work. A 160 is about the smallest hoe I would want to work with on that house. I don't think I would get involved for $3500. Bid it to make money and not to wear your equipment out for free. Good Luck, Cd
Little secret. In this economy the guys doing environmental work are getting a minimum 15% on jobs, plus an additional mark up of 10-15% on materials. Gravy work if you have the qualifications, and the connections.
I strongly urge you to consider the dumpsters. I can never see how using dump trucks can compete with dumpsters. The majority of most demos are light material...volume, not weight. It will cost the same money to haul 18 yards or 40. Why only haul 18? Furthermore, you can have several dumpsters staged, on site, for you to load while the full ones are in transit. The brick and concrete will probably be closer, if not cheaper, to haul with your own truck. You may also find it less expensive to haul the brick and concrete to a recycler. I doubt it would be cheaper to hire out a recycler to demo and dispose the brick because all the roofing and interior would have to be removed by hand, and in stages. Too labor intensive. One other thing that nobody has mentioned. It's a dirty word but here it is. ASBESTOS! I'm not sure of the structures age (looks relatively new so may not be an issue) but I bet you will have to get an asbestos survey before you can get a demo permit. If your concerned about all the debris being required to go to the landfill than I bet you will be required to get the Asbestos survey too. That will be around $1,000 alone. If the results are positive the numbers could possibly go through the roof for a house that size.
The jobs I quoted above are for sitework for a discount store. I have another one coming up this week to bid, I have trimmed the margins back to 10% as I need to fill the schedule. Environmental work is something I have wanted to get into. Unit cost work is nice and profitable as I assume a lot of this type of work is. Very good advice. I agree I wouldn't haul demo debris in dump trucks either as I would never get the job or go broke hauling it. It depends on the job, location, etc whether I haul my hardcore in dump trucks or dumpsters - but I don't have a dump truck anymore so that also factors into the equation. In my area residential demo's don't require an asbestos survey but commercial does. If this job requires an asbestos survey, the GC/builder should be the one that has to foot that bill and hiring a firm to abate it if it is present. Also exclude ANY hazardous material abatement, removal, transportation or disposal in your quote. I don't do asbestos work and exclude it, putting that burden on the owner or GC. I seriously doubt this house in question has any asbestos but let the GC handle the paperwork.
So how much did this job go for anyway?
If it went for the 3500.00 range, I would not want any part of that. I have never bid any demo, but from a gut feeling I can tell you I think $50,000.00 would seem more in the ballpark for everything that it would take to do that and dispose of the debris. Maybe I am missing something here.
3500 for two days work is good money for an owner operator like myself. Even if it took 2 1/2 days I wouldnt cry.. Let the customer pay the dumpsters. 1 machine 1 laborer 1 equipment transport. You dont need two machines or more people. I could have that house in pile by lunch time while loading dumpsters. Then its just loading dumpsters. Maybe 20 cans. I see house demos alot with big machines him-hawwin around for days on demos. 90 percent of the house demos I do are one day deals start to straw. There are several owner operators who bid demos cheap. If xou want the job you have to think about that. I mean cmon you dont need a laser or measuring tape and its easy on the machine minus the airborne debris.
With what size machine? I think you are way low on your pricing. Maybe it is much different in your neck of the woods. I would not expect even my best hoe hands to have a house down that quick. For one, the material should be sorted. Secondly, all the brick could probably be crushed or ground on site so that we need to be separated out. I do quite a bit of demo and have the right tools and feel like there is quite a bit more work involved in a 7500 sq/ft house demo than $3500.00. Just my opinion,CD
The first house I tore down was about 1500 sq. ft. and had an old two plus garage. I got $3000 for that, one. No way would i want 7500 sq. ft. for $3500. The last house I tore down was 3500 sq. ft. full of fire damaged furniture and more beds than any house should have. It took two and half days to knock down and load into drop boxes, and 1 1/2 days more to remove concrete, and level the lot. I bid the job for $9000 drop boxes and a a few loads of dirt cost $4000.
I agree CD, I don't see how one can come out taking that house down and loading out the debris for $3500 just in equipment and labor, regardless of who is paying for trucking and disposal. Sure one could have the main structure down in a day but you still have the footings and foundations to remove once you remove the structure debris. There is no way one could take down a 7500 SF house by lunch and load dumpsters at the same time, especially considering the fact one has to take great care to not spill debris down the mountainside that would result in expensive manual labor to remove. Just my $.02.
Any updates on what the job went for? Chris
Fastdirt Couple flaws in your theory there buddy. Im a owner operator and could probly Work cheaper then any body because everything i own is paid for but in no way would i ever Work that cheap. If i couldn't make 10 to 12 grand on that job wouldn't touch it. If they supposedly paid 1.2 million they have money so why Work do cheap. You are the guys i hate who screw the industry up that used to Produce a good profit. Plus demo isn't easy on a machine. Breaking Concrete out isn't easy on buckets waking around on debris risk somthing coming up and stabbing hydrlines. Stuff happens . Your ignorant to take a job that cheap
I tend to agree. I wonder what happened to the guy that started the thread? I don't believe this job could be done for $3500.00. Why you would even think that, is a problem. Without starting an arguement it is interesting to see other guy's perspective on jobs such as these. Regards,CD
I was once told that you're worst competition is that guy that is about to go under. I agree! I would want $3500 just to cover liablility insurance and overhead and that size of project.
The OP has not replied to your question regarding what it went for. The $3500 came from Fastdirt's comment about what he would charge for that demo. It would be interesting to hear about what it went for. I can't see doing it for $3,500 myself (and I have LOW overhead). I can't speak for everyone else but I, for one, am certainly not in this business for the practice anymore.
I was going to post that, thanks for doing so. Same as you, I have low overhead too but I wouldn't take on that job for that price. Risk=reward in the business world, the more risk the more reward. Speaking of OH, I too run as lean as possible nowadays. At one time I had a nice office with a conference room, reception area, etc. That all ended in '08 and what I have found out since then is it's not needed. Now my office is my house and I have an arrangement for a shop and equipment parking that doesn't cost anything. I meet people on the job or just use email and phone calls to get jobs. Overhead adds up really quick and if you don't watch it, it will steal every bit of your profit and then some.:cool2
Straw poll- price for this demo job How about a "straw poll" of forum members who wish to say what they think the job should go for. My estimate is $50,000
Well since we haven't had an update on what the job went for, it's good practice and interesting to see what it would go for in different parts of the country. Simple breakdown if the house was in my area - 28 - 30's @ $400 each 8 loads hardcore @ $250 a load - debris that is legal in my area to use as fill. Concrete with no rebar protruding, brick, block, etc. 4 days start to finish $27,800 +/- Of course that price has a lot of variables not being able to see the house itself, location from dump sites, etc but that is a round about number if it was in my working area. Wouldn't include any dirt hauled in or out or seeding and haying the site. Scrap goes into beer money fund (cash $$) and not included in estimate.
I totally agree. I believe i thought it was worth 45k or so, and that was just off the cuff. Without seeing the job it is hard to put a perfect number to it, but when is demo perfect? I think we have touched on a few good points in this thread. The first one is that the OP has never responded, so why ask a bunch of professionals for their opinions? The same OP also had a thread about insurance questions, it seems to me that he may be starting a business or be green so he is asking questions. The second point is the $3500.00 deal. I demo single wide trailers for $4500.00 and make $500.00 is scrap. there is always someone that will do it for less but only experience will tell a guy when to draw the line in terms of price. I have quite a bit of iron and it is all paid for, there is no way I will go work for cheap. All my guys have been with me over ten years and they are well paid. pricing jobs this low only ruins the market for established contracters and it takes years to build the pricing back up. In my area, the lowballers usually go away or end up working for the less established or not so good G.C's Good Luck, CD
In our area, we are paying $39.50 a ton to dump and I am figuring about 150 to 175 tons of debris(not including brick and concrete). We just finished a 7000sq foot house last week and we had 175 tons but there was a fire so there was furniture and other content. That being said, I think CM's price is right on. We use our own truck with an 80 yd demo trailer so that helps out. The house was 3 stories and had a good bit of structural steel and got 13 tons of steel scrap. Chris
Seriously all those comments are ignorant. I've got several videos and pictures of my demos. I can easily do house demos in one day. If you can't, I'm sorry. Hell I've done a 3 story eight unit apartment demo where I had to cut the framing on both sides so not to disturb the existing connected units. That only took 3 days. One machine and one laborer....on a Cat 312. I could have any house in a pile by luch time CM. We are completely different. You are slow and I am as fast as they get. Yes I am completely safe. You can judge companies and operators by the damage to the back and sides of their excavators. It's like racing dirt bikes...I race off road endurance races. I am a good A class rider but they're are so many people that I regurally race that I wiil never EVER be able to beat. It just happens. on't rip on me and tell me I'm going under, That's just dirty and I was just being honest. Heck yeah If I was Colorada digger and had 3 machines, 4 guys, trucks, and ll that crap on site I'd have to charge 5x's what I do, but It's just me and my little capable 312 with 20 years of running tracked machines experience. There is no talking on my site ever, I just go at it with 110% and I don't make friends out there because folks mistake it for rudeness
That statement just shows your immaturity and lack of knowledge.:cool2 You know nothing about me to make a statement on how I operate or run jobs. I have already stated my thoughts on your timeline for this project and there is no need in reiterating them. There is no mistaking the rudeness.
There is no mistaking the rudeness. [/QUOTE] DITTO CM!
Really Really Fastdirt? You said it not me. Just the fact that you would make a statement like this shows where the ignorance lies. Come on man, I'm sure this is not the only time your big mouth has led you down the path to trouble I don't think I would call you if I was in a jam and needed some help because you might yell at my client. The other part of the story is that you are not willing to provide a total service package for the job. As you stated it was better to let the customer pay for the export fees. In my area we provide a total package, inclusive of the entire project. Any client of mine would go find someone else if I ever said something like that. I believe that your 312 is too small to handle large demo on a production shedule anyway. So if i was the G.C and you said $3500.00 and I will have it down by lunchtime tommorow, I would send you on your way. Maybe a 312 can take smaller. stick built houses but not around here. I doubt this house in question is built cheaply. There is no way that you are going to take the house down by lunch and be loading out. Unless you don't care about processing the debris because you have the owner paying the dumpster costs. Anyone can mobe a hoe onto a job and start tearing it down and loading it out but I believe you may not be providing the same services as the rest of the field. I am not looking to flame the fire and stir the s..t but you have obviously stepped past the point of no return with your comments. Good Luck with your endeavours.CD
Well spoken CD & CM... it is very plain to see where the ignorance truly is with this thread.
Backing this thread up and hopefully taking it down another path: Let's expand a little on CM's idea. Since none of us have seen this house, let's just estimate it using his figures, just because it is neat to see the regional differences. 28 30 yd loads will be 21 lds in my 40 yd trailers. Not knowing exact distance from dump I'll use my minimum load price of $125 for the trucking, or $2625. If the house is in 3 of the 4 counties I usually work in, I'll take it to a private landfill at $90/ld, or $1890. If it is in the other county, it is required by county ordinance to go to the county landfill and is charged by the ton, at an average price of $800/ld, or $16,800. (This law has been challenged all the way to the US Supreme Court, and will hopefully be overturned this year). So, debris disposal at $4515, or $19425. 8 loads of hardcore at $0, since I can sell it at a profit while building swamp crossings for timber companies. 4 days of a 20 ton hoe and laborer at $2000/day, plus an extra day of cushion, $10,000. permits etc. $750 Total:$15,265 or $30,175 OK guys, let's see some more estimates, hopefully without the rudeness or off the cuff guesses.
I have been bidding a number of demos this Spring. Here no one uses dumpsters. If you want to be competetive you have to use the 60 yard trailers for the loose demo material. I bid the demo of a bowling alley with some retail space and a Skippers restraunt all connected. Total building size was 200'X100'. I bid it at 45K and did not get it. I knocked over a couple 1500 sf homes for around 7K last year with 1 hr round trip for the trucking. I just bid a two story 2000 sf home tonight for demo at 10K. Here the trucking is key you cant be competetive without using the 60 yard demo trailers or end or side dumps as second options. Hauling loose material in standard dump truck just takes too long. The house in question in this area with an hour round trip truck time, would likely go for 15-18K with dump fees
Here most people use 130yd walking floor trailers for most demos.
Interesting....had to look that one up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiXIYtIFMyM
Dang Mitch that's cheap. The cheapest gate/over-tonnage rate I have is $15 a ton at a private landfill. County landfill is $29, they were $27 for years. I am always interested in how other people/areas do the same task differently. I have used a 100 yard push-out before (the one in one of my demo threads) and really liked the amount of debris you could stuff in it but they're just not that many available in my area. What are the tonnage/loads rates out your way KSS?
The county landfill where they have the ordinance is $49.50/ ton for every ton, and one of the others is $39. I've never checked the others. That private landfill's published rate is $20/ton, but for about 3 years before the crash, I kept 3 trucks running steady into there, 3-5 loads a day, at $75/ld. Just before the economy crashed they went up to $90, and have kept my rate there, I guess because the amount I bring them is so insignificant now.
Man am i the only one who thinks that place is awfully nice to demo?
That is def. a 35000++++ job, IMO... We do about 10-15 demos a year. We are a small company, and had a serial arsenist in our town for a few years,,,, so there are a few to tear down. Unfort, most arent insured so they are still standing. anyways, that is a little bigger than we usuall do, but we have done a few that size, or close to it. 3500 in labor, even for ONE day is not enough. The insurance is high, and if it doesnt look good when its done,, you wont get any good pr from it.. Sorry for the ramblings,, its late here!
Sorry for the late update. I threw 54k at it, but did not get it. Somebody came in with a lowball in the 20s. Turns out they dumped the material illegally on their own property and buried it. PISSED!!!!
Yep, makes you tempted to make an anonymous phone call, doesn't it?
One thing that no one mentioned is the potential lost profit from not including the trucking and disposal in the bid. So if this is really a $3500 job in labor (which I personally think is crazy low) + another say $30k in trucking and dumping fees. Then after figuring high on that to make sure your covered, you add a 10%+ profit on top of that. Bottom line is you just made more money subbing out the disposal then the actual work of demoing and loading out the house. So why not include everything it will take to complete the job in the bid? Around me contractors bid jobs both ways, but I prefer the turn key price.