i have operated an excavator very little. When i did run a hoe i fond that there was a certain angle in which i would have my bucket that suddenly it would just fill with ease. other angles would pull and strain the machine. what is the most efficient way to dig a trench. how should i place my bucket to engage the earth? how should i spoil? how should i re-enter the trench. mostly i am thinking about how my teeth and bottom of the bucket engage the earth and what kind of angle i should have. maybe these are impossible questions to answer, but i thought i would ask anyway.
This is a hard question to answer because it depends on the circumstance. Generally you want the teeth to be even with the dipper stick. In other words, if you draw an imaginary line from the end of the dipper stick down past the bucket, the bucket should be positioned so that the teeth touch that imaginary line. As you dig you should be adjusting the bucket, stick, and boom at the same time. I hope you can picture what I'm saying. Just try to be smooth and the speed will come soon enough.
if you want to dig fast put the seat back crank the radio up and start pulling the sticks hard
The general rule is to let the teeth do the work of leading the bucket into the soil. The sharp tip of the tooth should engage the ground and dig so that the bucket floor is following the line of the tooth as it moves toward the operator. Whatever direction the tooth is facing will be where the bucket wants to go, that is, if the tooth is facing down, the bucket will want to go down, it the tooth is facing up the bucket will want to come toward the surface. You will want to point the teeth down at the start of the dig and curl the bucket up as you bring it towards you to fill the bucket fully. Also depending on the type of ground you will generally point the teeth down slightly as you cut to grade to guarantee that bucket keeps cutting and doesn't take the path of least resistance that is moving up from the trench floor. Baz
how do I explain this the easiest... Ok, filling the bucket is only part of digging a ditch. There is swinging to the spoils, dumping, and swinging back. The goal is to think ahead, do it right the first time, and to do it with minimal motion. And occasionally to multi task. Its all an accumulation of little things. One place to same time is by not lifting the boom up all the way to dump, open the dipper back up because it clears the ditch, and you will need it there for the next bucket. Also alot of new guys when they dump their bucket uncurl it all the way and sometimes bang it. I just uncurl to about where I want to be to fill it again and twitch the dipper and it all comes out, if I'm playing in material that doesn't want to hang in the bucket. here watch this guy dig, he is good. YouTube - Yanmar VIO 55 Mini Excavator Moving Dirt Another time the owner's son wanted to race me to see who could dig faster. We were digging water lines thru a pole barn that was 90' wide. He picked one that was free of posts and in an open area. I got one that was beside a 6' deep ditch and around posts. I beat him by 10 minutes. Why did I beat him, because every time he repositioned, he pick up the stabilizers, spun the seat back around, fastened his seat belt and put it in drive. I just lifted the stabilizers a little and shoved myself along with the bucket. Basically, practice, practice, practice. And when you see someone else digging, learn from what they are doing. You will see what makes you seconds and what costs you seconds.
you've got that Yanmar really moving....sweet!
I don't even lift the stabilizers when trenching, I just lift the front bucket a little, pick up the back just a little with the boom and shove. I think planing your spoils so they don't have to be moved any more than possible saves more time than anything.
If you hear the hydraulics squealing, you are not doing it right.
When using an excavator you dont have stabilizers, so if an excavator is what you using, what I have were I work is extremely hard rock, gravel and clay. We have to lossen or scratch the ground 1st, just sticking the bucket down and curling wont work. Once you gotten to depth, what I do is curl the bucket so the smooth side is down and carefully draw back the last 4" of loose dirt on the bottom from the teeth digging towards you to get a smooth finish. Best to dig with the unit facing what your digging, doing it sideways can throw your tracks of the unit. And lastly remember the most power is when your curling your bucket. Youtube is a great resource.
"Dont waste 20 minutes to figure out how to do a 10 minute job 5 minutes faster." That is gold advice.
If your working by the hour why be in a hurry. Why try to make others look bad by competing on the job against others. If everyone gets in a hurry there will soon be a mistake or an accident because of the effort of trying to out do someone else. Keep it up and the boss will expect it every day. Give the effort your paid for, and do the job safely. Your not there to win the turkey, or the prize behind door # 2 Do your job only, and not someone else's ... NOW ... GET-ER DONE ! ! ! .
Well said and that's how i feel also...
. Do you think you made yourself look good to others when you beat the Bosses Son by ten minutes. :umno Son looks at Dad and feels how good ? ops You don't suck up, :crazy and you don't go for brownie points, :duh and you don't make some one else look like a looser, ( especially above all ) The Bosses ... Son ! ! ! ... :Banghead ointhead .
Just dig it. LOL seen that sticker on a JD 450 in BC (just do it NIKE)
In my defense, the boss was at another job that day, and winner got to dig the next ditch. No one else around but me and the owner's son. I wasn't rushing, but I wasn't cutting much slack either. Had boss been there, he would have smoked the both of us... And you make a good point, not much sense making waves...
draw a line straight down from the dipper pin and keep your teeth there? would this be the same as keeping your bucket bottom parallel?
i like to see the guys push a little bit of the previous spoil out of the way with the back of their bucket when they make the current spoil. to me this means they are keeping their bucket lower and wasting less motion. i like to see a little bit of the spoil trickle back into the trench. this says that the minimal motion is being made. i only want to see a bucket change direction twice per scoop. once when bringing it from the spoil and back into the ditch and the second time when leaving the ditch going towards the spoil. if the bucket goes forward or away any more than those two times time and energy is wasted. i like to imagine the bucket making the same motion as a chain trencher--one long fluid arc. also i like to see them fall into the ditch in an arc, not stop and find the slot then drop. thanks for the good points.
sounds like an employee with a really bad attitude that i would rather not have around. i need speed and the job depends on speed. i am not concerned with a safe trench--i don't put anyone in it. i just want to know the most efficient way to get the dirt out of the hole fast!
thanks for the good posts. the question i was most interested in was how to fill the bucket the quickest and easiest and how the geometry of the bucket and teeth work.
as far as how the bucket teeth work its simple. Pointy end first. Think of it like digging with a pine handled excavator, the blade slides in the best when the force applied is directly in line with the intended direction of the blade. The teeth make a crack for the bucket to follow. You need to adjust your bucket as to crowd in depending on desired actions.
You did ask questions wanting answers, and because you don't like the answer you lash out.
I agree with you that safety is very important. Speed comes with practice, though learning good technique early on is very valuable. When learning, it's best to use proper technique and the fastest and smoothest digging cycle without rushing. Once you've followed the proper method enough, speed will come naturally. If all one cares about is speed, one will just work like crazy and miss the little things that can be the difference between life and death. I'm all for efficiency and trying to dig the quickest you can, but not at the expense of safety. Now as for the best angle of the bucket when digging, point the teeth in the direction the bucket is moving once you've gotten in to the ground.
wow you guys are really putting the heat to this guy mellow out good operators are of a competitive nature and they also like people to be in awe of what they can do. Dont lie and say you dont just because your the bosses son does not mean you have the abilitys to operate the equipment you can run it but you might not be able to operate.
Bumpus, I have a problem with at least half of what you said, and since I don't know you, I won't accuse you of it, but guys I've known who espouse the same philosophy you put into words have more often than not been the ones who were trying to avoid working hard. Fair enough, if you accept that "hurry" is indeed unsafe, which I do. That doesn't mean you don't try to give the customer/employer the most work that you can safely accomplish in an hour. If somebody else looks bad because they're not working as hard as I am, that's their problem, not mine. Again, fair enough, but there's a balance to be made between hurry and safety. Slow down too much and you're not getting any safer, but you're not delivering what you're being paid for. Why shouldn't the boss expect your best every day?? That would be 100% effort, for every hour on the clock, right? You're there to make the company money. When the day comes for the boss to decide who made the company more money, and who gets laid off, if keeping the job is the prize behind door #2, uh yeah, you are there for that. Oh, man. One of my pet peeves. Getting the project done is everybody's job. If everybody is giving 100% then there should be no question about who's job any given aspect is. Just do it. If someone else's job isn't getting done, and you're sitting still, you're not giving 100%. The boss gets to worry about whether the other guy is giving 100% or not. I sure hope so...
digger242j you said it all! bumpus: i have never seen a post which wraps up so completely the essence of a bad employee!
speed: i need speed on my job. the job was bid competitively with the intention of having high speed installation. i am in a situation where 95% of the time safety is not an issue. I am on the open prairie with no utility conflicts and no men in the trench. the ground guy needs to stay out of the operators way and the operator should be slinging dirt right on the edge of being out of control a trencher is essentially an out of control excavator and that's what i need. for that 5% of the time i need a man in the trench or have a utility to cross i could care less about speed and then safety takes the lead.
No. The teeth (or cutting edge if you're using a gummy) should enter the earth at an angle. Think of the angle on of the blade on a scraper or on a simple wood plane. The best advice I can give you is to watch someone doing it right and pay close attention to what they're doing. Go on youtube and there are plenty of videos you can watch. One of the members here has a channel under the username letsdig18. Take a look at his videos where he's running the hoe. There are also some volvo instructional videos that you should take a look at. If you're in a hurry starting off, you're more likely to make a mess and it will cost you more time for every step of the job that follows. Take your time getting set up and digging cleanly and efficiently. Speed will follow. If you start on a Monday, you'll be faster by Friday. You mention safety not being an issue most of the time. Just keep in mind that most operator accidents occur when getting in and out of the machine and when climbing on top to service it. Something to think about if you're out in the boonies with nobody around.
. I'm not bragging but stating a point: Had many a For-men and ( Owners) Bosses brag on my work. Trucks, Dozers, Backhoes, Excavaters, Scraper Pans, Boom Trucks, And Cranes. Owned and Drove 3 Tractor Trailers In the construction field worked for over 50 different companies. Been requested by them on other jobs, ahead of others, because I did the work they required of me, and made them money. I worked production work, and doing it safely, and I also did work in dangerous places. Maybe someone did not slow down and read ALL of what I said in the beginning and over looked many of my statements. Missing and not understanding my intent based on the original posts. Maybe they were just in a Hurry to give me there opinion. :beatsme .
i have a man fuel and lube the machines every night. the operator needs to check his oil in the morning, get our for lunch, and then again when he leaves at the end of the day. so hopefully i have eliminated most of the opportunity to get hurt!! i have been watching all my operators and really studying what they are doing. when i get in i feel like i have a pretty good grasp on the spoil and how to make that efficient, but i feel like when i fall back into the trench i am not quite getting my bucket angle right without a little slow down. then i feel like the machine is fighting me until i get that angle right and i struggle with keeping it just right. somewhere in that pull back there is a spot where its like "poof" and the bucket is full. i have some operators who can dig 3000' feet of trench and quit at three and others who struggle all day to get 1600 feet. so i am trying to figure out what the difference is.
when i saw that on your resume i would throw it away. maybe there is a reason that you have worked so many different jobs. you have a bad attitude and no one wants to keep you around. you may be skilled but your only interest is yourself. an employee is rewarded when he makes the employer money and he has to give a damn about the company to accomplish that!
This is an interesting question that you have asked. Not being a digger myself, I'm curious as to how the pro diggers work the bucket when digging as you described above and get the fastest "poof", bucket full.
If you are looking for speed on one paticular job and u don't have much time on an hoe. Prolly hire a good operator. If the job depends on speed then there isn't any magical thing that your not doing that is gonna speed things up. Two I saw alot of the other guys have commeted on. Really what kind of advice is that. That's some of the worst advice I've heard in my life. I started my bizness based of terrible and lazy operators. some of best advice I ever got was people always do their best with the information that they have at the time knowledge they have acquired over time and their personal belifs. I took me awhile to beilve that. So basiclly some people get a wall and sit down go around over or under. I've never sat down.
thanks mavrickxxx. i am not the one digging the ditch. i am trying to study my operators and find out if there as some training our company can provide to improve efficiency which in the end equals speed. when i dig i can feel that sweet spot that fills the bucket, but can't keep it. it appears that the overwhelming advice here is that it takes experience to perfect this sweet spot and that probably is the best advice. i just don't want to see the company struggle with production or the operator fight against his machine so i am trying to learn all i can.
. The best ones to ask these questions on being fast is the operators who you say do 3000 ft. a day. Don't just watch ask them personally how they do it. You could get more than one answer.
I want to get back to the topic at hand, forgive me. I also wonder how best to dig, save fuel, time, wear, while moving the most dirt possible. I watched letsdig18 on youtube, he seems to have it figured out. A couple things he doesn't do, that i find myself doing often. He doesn't plunge the bucket into the material. Rather he lets the teeth do the work, filling the bucket as he proceeds through the pile. He uses the entire crowd distance to fill the bucket, and used the crowd to fill the bucket. This is opposed to plunging the bucket and filling by curling. Also, using the teeth to do the work ensures system pressures are kept low. He never stalls, or comes close to stalling the hydraulic system. You can really be gentle, yet fast, by focusing on avoiding high system pressure...ie. forcing the engine to work to create massive pressures. I think an analogy is in order here. Imagine a pull pan scraper. I've never seen one myself, but its easy to imagine how they work. You travel a long way with the blade barely in the earth, and it fills itself nice and easy. But if you plunge it into the earth too deep, you stall the tractor, resulting in wasted energy, higher wear, lost time and so on. Lastly, another thing he does i simple cannot do, is he leaves the bucket curled out after dumping. The lesson here is focusing on directing the oil to the circuit you want to use. Personally, i am running all the circuits all the time. Returning to the pile i tend to boom up, crowd, curl in, and swing simultaneously. But when i get to the pile, i have to undo it all by curling out, booming down and extending, wasting precious time. So my focus tends to be on oil flow, and where i want to use it. I get more done by thinking about what my hands are doing, and what i am telling the machine to do. I think that problem is specific to me. But i do get more done by really focusing on not wasting oil flow on unnecessary motion. Anyway, that's my two cents, and i have a long way to go before fast and efficient is natural for me. ps: I have always thought a really neat training tool would be a pressure gauge in the cab showing peak working pressures. It would give a perfect indication of what you are doing to the machine.
I didn't see that u weren't digging until I already posted. If u are observing and still can't tell why some r getting half the production ask the guy getting 3000 ft a day if they can see each other he will know. Might not be the machine or operators capbilty's could be a much smaller problem a cell phone. All things being the same half amount of production is defintly not right.
good point maverickxxx you can get footage spending the day on the phone! thanks watglen. agree with what you are saying. a pressure gauge would be a pretty good training tool. if only i could be built into a heads up display! when i get in that machine i beat myself up every stroke that i feel is wasted. maybe its that drive to make sure not a movement is wasted that is missing in my slow operators?
You could try paying the guys the same amount as guy getting 3000 ft. They might be only wrking for what they r getting paid for
. Some machines have built in pressure switches which can change operations of pressure by the flip of a switch. One setting will make the machine more powerful but move slower for heavy lifting like laying heavy concrete pipe. Another setting will make it faster but not as much power on the cylinders. An Operator can set his or her own desire of operation usually with 3 or 4 different settings with a switch of a button. .
although a very valid point they are all getting paid $39 per hour as this is a davis bacon job. i can't imagine paying anyone more than that!
a great point but i don't think my machines have this option. i would tend to think that faster cycle times even if the bucket isn't quite as full would probably get more footage.
. Some people can not operate every machine the same as others. I have a friend who liked to run an old 580 Case Rubber tired Backhoe with 3 leavers, and he was good and quick at it. But when he ran a John Deere 310 with the 2 wobble stick leavers he was faster. I asked him about it and he said he still would rather run the Case any day, because that was what he broke in on. My self I was just the opposite because I learned on the John Deer which I could operate much smother, but I did not like the case with 3 sticks and foot operated swings. Did not like a Cat backhoe in those day because the leavers were backwards from John Deere, and it was harder to get use to so I was slower on it. Many people have a preference and some equipment handles a little easier. .
Lets look at all aspects involved. Machines, operator, laborer, & obstructions. Try a week of recording that data. Look for conflict between operator and laborer, # of utility crossings. Try trading operators around and see if one particular machine is at fault. It could be a cell Issue, but I wouldn't leave guys out in the middle of a prarrie digging without one. Next thing you know there will be an emergency. Oh, and post videos of them all operating, with as many eyes as are on here we might be able to tell something. Btw, what machines are they running?
on previous jobs we used pc 300-7's with success, but then we got a volvo ec 330 and it was a hog and out did all the komatsu's. on this job we are digging with ec-330 excavators. we only have two crews on this job so i am relating back to previous experience and other crews and operators for some of my this is what you can get per day/hour data. one machine is running a 48" bucket with six esco super v 39 sdx teeth. the other one was running a "trencher fang" but it has not at all been successful so it will go to work Monday with a 36" bucket with four esco super v 43 sdx teeth. i have found that over the long haul the sdx profile tooth outlasts the others.
If you're referring to me, I did read every word, several times. Recall also, that I said I don't know you and that I wasn't accusing you of not wanting to work hard, but that what you said there was consistent with the kind of things that have come from the mouths of the guys who weren't always pulling their weight. If you personally have produced better results than those guys, then we shouldn't have a problem. I'll stand by what I posted. I have a problem with some of the things you said, for the reasons I described. If you meant something different than what I read; if going into more detail would clear things up, we can discuss it in another thread, rather than getting more off topic in this one.
Sounds good to me.
Since we're on the subject of what was said. I remember more than once the OP stated safety was not an issue. BS.. Safety is always an issue. Take a look at what the operators production is. If they are good operators, the job will be done right even if it takes a little longer. OSHA is not gonna walk on your job and shut you down because of them. Just because you think you are not gonna put anyone in the ditch does not relieve you of digging it so someone can get in it. Sorry, it's OHSA's decision, not yours. How long do you think it's gonna take to dig those ditches if OSHA walks on your job and says turn em off? Tell it to the judge.
Training I went to a LICA land improvment contractors asc field day last year and deere had a training system set up for excavators it was realy just a simulator with joystick controls travle pedals and a pc it had 7 or 8 different tasks but each one showed your efficenty on the screen all the time like % of bucket it was advanced enugh to figure end of day proffit % for the opperator and machine damage such as grouser damage from bucket contact. I think it was 8 or 10 grand but at $39 hr for opperator it might be something to look at for winter training it could pay for is self in pretty short order.
wear and tear on machine vs production A superintendent for a company doing a big pipeline job outlined it like this: first the spoils pile has to end up free of the ditch (mitigation of surcharge) second the edge of the ditch has to be free of clods a rhythm or pattern of movements has to be developed as to when to break open the surface, where to place the spoils and stack em, when to kick the clods in the ditch, etc. third the owner of the machine has to stipulate if the goal is to (A) dig as much as possible which may involve longer loading and bucket packing techniques, including what they termed 'plowing', or (B) if these movements subject the machine (eg the amount of hydraulic pressure, the duration the pressure is applied, the effect on the pins, and as well the effects on the tracks of the machine if an excavator.. then perhaps the 'daily quota' is lessened to enhance the life of the machine. On this job, it was clear they wanted the machine life to be held in high esteem so they would make time in other ways such as have the foreman or relief operator run the machine at lunch and on bathroom breaks. For the majority of the digging, the basic tenet was to enter the ditch and have the bucket teeth ready and the bucket was to be rolled around its heel and the operator was to use the weight of the machine's boom to help the ripping out of the soil to load the bucket...as soon as the bucket was full via this biting technique, the bucket was to be pulled clear and no plowing or excessive duration was to be done. The bucket was kept modestly close to the machine as I recall. They weren't too worried about machine movements in the air, only the engagement time and technique. I could understand where different soil types effect the manner but since the forum did not indicate the possibility of tradeoffs - machine life for the production rate - I wanted to provide this insight as best as I could relay it on.
I hate and embarass people like you. Bad thing is there alot of your type around better to not even allow you on site.
Thanks. Good summary. :notworthy
others have probably answered this but what you are experiencing is hard soil and soft soil, when you get an easy bucket load you are pulling out soil that has been loosened already and when the going gets hard you are digging into virgin soil, basically it is part of digging, some buckets will be easier than others.
Another helpful hint to maximising your ditch digging productivity. If you look at the configuration of your boom, dipper and bucket crowd angles you will notice that there are certain sections of the stroke of each of the rams powering these components where there is a zone of maximum mechanical advantage. It is often, but not always, in the middle of the stroke and the relativity of these three components and their mechanical advantage needs to be synchronised for maximum digging power and productivity. In soft soil this is not such an important factor but in harder soils it can make a big difference. Just by moving your excavator/backhoe strategically you can make sure you are always in the zone of maximum power and productivity of your machine. Try it out on a suitable trench and see for yourself if you dig at maximum reach, mid reach and close in, where the most power and productivity is. Good operators get to know this by feel and it's one of the reasons why they are good. An operator who has little feel for his machine or the soil, is harder to train to be productive because of this. AusDave
Yes this is a better way of describing what I was trying to say, basically if you are digging trough even soil you need to 'cut' a certain amount every time. Try and take too much you will slow down the cycle because the machine is trying to dig through too much and take too little you will end up with half or 3/4 bucket fulls. Obviously if you dig through variable soil/rocks, this will be harder to do and you may have to make a couple of scrapes to get a full bucket. Basically what you are trying to do is make the machine be as productive as it can be.
This is a very difficult question to answer without being able to demonstrate the techniques I would recommend. In my opinion there are too many things to list (if listed in detail) that seperate the men from the boys. If your operators are competetive in nature, concerened with getting maximum efficiency without sacrificing machine life or job site safety, and can be depended on to give you an honest days work for an honest days pay, than I think this is a winning combination. These types of employees will figure out how to be productive in whatever situation you stick them in. If you have this type of employee I would like to hire them. I find it harder and harder to find good employees. In the video, that was offered in a previous post, I can find many things that that operator is doing that are wasting time and efficiency. If I had to offer a few tips it would be these: 1) The angle of the teeth will always be adjusted to suit the resistance that the dirt is giving (which usually varies along the trench bottom). As a general rule the tips of the teeth will be the leading edge so the angle will be fairly aggressive. The steeper the angle the better the penetration (to a point). DO NOT over rotate the bucket. This will only make the machine work harder (the heel of the bucket is not very sharp so it tales a lot of energy to try to drive it through the dirt), and accomplishes nothing except wear out the heel of the bucket, waste time, and fuel. The digging cycle is the blending of crowd, curl, and boom to fill the bucket in a manner that does not "force" the bucket through the dirt. A good analogy (from the "nail bangers" hand book) is to let the tool do the work. If you are using a lot of crowd force to make the bucket go through the dirt than you are not using the correct technique. This is not a huge problem in the middle of a field, but it will lead to broken obstructions, if you encounter them, and irregular grade at the trench bottom. A good operator can feel how hard the machine should be working, and blending all the functions to keep it in the "sweet spot" is part of the art of digging. 2) Do not over fill the bucket. The bucket should be brought to the spoil pile as soon as it is filled. Many operators will continue to crowd even after the bucket is full (out of habit I guess). On an excavator, the bucket should be filled just about the point at which the operator must boom down to continue to fill the bucket. Once the boom begins to go down (on the bucket fill cycle) you are losing efficiency. 3) When exiting the trench the crowd should be moving out at the same time as the boom is coming up. Crowd out will continue until the bucket has been extended all the way to the beginning of the cut. When I begin my upward cycle I will begin with boom up priority, and then blend to crowd out priority. If the material is sticky or does not evacuate the bucket fast enough, I will give the crowd a "jerk" to help persuade the dirt to leave the bucket. As I begin the return cycle the swing has priority, and I will blend to crowd out, and then boom down priority. When done correctly the casual observer will see one fluid motion. Many times you will see the operator move the crowd back towards the machine (when returning to the trench after dumping) just to extend it back out once they are over the trench. This is a wasted motion. This can be (for many) a hard habit to break. It takes patience and discipline to get the correct motion down. Crowding out while booming down can be used to take energy away from the swing and transfer it into a downward motion. It can make the transition smoother. In time a good operator will modulate his controls to make all his transitions smooth (in the manor I just described). 5) Different circumstances will require different techniques. Digging in rock is different than digging in loam. Digging in a field will be different than digging in the street. I'm sure you get the picture. If the operator is working at maximum efficiency (correct digging angles, and proper techniques) the tractor will not be over worked. When I am digging I usually don't think much about technique anymore. I don't think about what my hands are doing. My machine has become an extension of myself, so my thoughts are only to what I want the machine to do. This frees up my mind to think ahead and think about specific job circumstances and possible obstructions or issues that may need to be addressed. The exception to this is if I have to run a machine that I am not familiar with, or that employs a pattern that I am not accustomed to (BTW, CAT controls rule!). After a while it all just comes naturally. BTW, I am very competitive. I have learned to use this to my advantage. I want to be the best operator (or whatever I am doing) I can be. This means more than just being fast. It means digging the most, best, and safest trench while not breaking anything. I want to be the best employee (though I am now self employed), or, as is the case now, the best contractor/vendor, I can be. This competitive nature is what makes capitolism survive, and it probably can be argued that it boils down to a basic instinct that Darwin had a theory on. If only I could spell.
wow. great comments. i would like to clarify my stance on safety. safety is important but in a different way then if you have men working in the trench. we stress things like stay out of the machine swing radius, wear a hard hat, wear steel toes, know your heat limitations, know how to lift properly, avoid pinch points, know what utilities are upcoming, be careful when working near overhead lines, do not enter a straight wall trench. all of these safety things are important. the fact is we don't enter a straight wall trench so stepping, shoring, and boxing are not really an issue for us. we have a work to do in the ditch less than one percent of the time. when that one percent comes around then speed goes out the door and its time to be careful and deliberate about planning the excavation. on the other ninety-nine percent of the time it is a non occupied excavation and its time to blow and go. it is a little bit like running a trencher as far as the trench construction and occupancy goes. so safety is an issue just not in the respect that most of you who are working in the streets are accustom to. i think there has been some great discussion hear and i feel i am learning a lot from the thread. thanks again.
i have been watching the crews even more closely and have come to a conclusion: there might just be natural operators that can get footage. i took one of the "veterans" off of the cleanup crew yesterday and had him dig. he easily tied our best daily footage in nine hours versus the other diggers ten hours. the strange thing is he digs differently than everyone else. he used to take his entire bucket slam it into the trench and wiggle his bucket until it was full. no croud no boom, just wiggle it till it got full. this was of course not very fast. i can't remember how he enters the ditch because i was so surprised how he finishes his stroke. he has the bucket almost completely curled up and is dragging the heal for about five feet. Absolutely counter productive yet he turned in better footage than anyone yet!
One of the best operators I have known used to train people by letting them dig about 100 feet, then he gave them a shovel to clean up the ditch. The most important thing is not how fast you are, but that you make good ditch. There are times when the ditch doesn't matter, but it does't take any longer to make good ditch when you are used to it. Increase your speed as you become more confident. Generally, don't lift out of the ditch without a full bucket. Plan where the spoil pile will work best.
just pull the sticks and watch and you will learn something new everyday
I've got a lot of hours on mini ex. and every ditch is different, like someone else said just start pullin on the sticks and figure out what works best
My first post so bear with me! I work for an oil and gas pipeline company and have been digging for about 5 years. Not to long but long enough to get a handel on it. We run Deere 230 and 270 and Cat 325. While the 270 has more digging power then the 230 the 230 cycle times are noticably quicker and seems to be a much more controlable excavator. The only good thing about the cat is the quick attach bucket lol. So u asked about how to dig fast so this is what i have observed buy watching some pretty damn shiny operators and a few things i have figured out: 1. How long is ur Set? While u have the rech to dig say a 15' set before repositioning thats doesent mean u should! As mentioned earlier ur hydraulics have a sweet spot where u have max power and reaching out to max extention to start ur set isnt it! Iusually make my sets about 3/4 the length of my tracks therabouts and have noticed this allows for quicker digging. 2. Dig from the top down not the other way around. Take light cuts along the length of ur set. Say about maybe 1' at a time or so. This will vary of course depending on the size of ur hoe. Typicaly in the 230 it takes me 4-5 cuts to get 6' depth. Also dig with ur bucket more or less parallel to ditch bottom as others have said curling at the end to fill bucket to max capacity. Filling ur bucket 3/4 full doesent help u to dig faster lol! 3. Put ur dirt more or less right beside where it comes out. This i have found more then anything speeds digging tremendously. The less time spent swinging means more time digging. If ur spoil pile is ending up close to the cab at the end of the set u are doing it wrong. 4. If ur ditch needs to be sloped to stand do it as u go down. If u have to stop digging and spend a bunch of time sloping ur holdin up production. 5. It seems u get the most production when ur engin stays at a constant hum. if ur jerky and ur engin is revin then bogging out production will be down. 6. I dont know if this makes u dig faster or not but for the love of god dont bottom out ur bucket and stick rams Every Single Time u dump ur spoil or extend to start ur next cut! Its hard as **** on ur machine and makes u look like a complete rookie no matter how nice ur ditch is or how long u been doin it. Just my 2 cents here and the things i could think of. The variables on how much ditch u can get in a day are neverending but these are the big ones i could think of.
very well made points chazel. thanks. we are working just seven miles south of the border in north dakota right now.
Im in the South West corner. Have u been able to get anything done this summer its pretty much been raining down there non stop all summer?
6.5" in the last 60 days and normal is 3.75"
My boyfriend has a landscaping business and has operated an excavator for years. It is an expert operating different machinery but he has also done it for many years. I think you are selling yourself short, with more experience you will also pick up more speed. It will just take time to learn to be a good operator. He always says that anyone can run a machine, but not everyone can operate one.
I don't know if anyone uses a trencher but this is the fastest way to dig a ditch I have found,I have operated all types of equipment over the years but one of these beats it all.I can do a mile in about 6 hours @ 6' deep and 36" wide.The problem we have is we get to much open ditch and they shut us down. here are some pictures...
my rebuttal to the trencher guy!: 1. i hate trenchers. 2. its an excavator thread not a trencher thread. 3. is that a million dollar trencher? there is a whole different level of economics involved with that kind of money and a trencher. 4. i have to deal with a lot of rocks (not rock). we are in glacial till. trenchers don't seem to do the trick out here where i am at. in other parts of the country i would bet a trencher is amazing. 5. i typically need an eight foot ditch in my part of the world.
Using a trencher does not really contribute to the OP's question. Regardless of the thread, it is common knowledge that a trencher will smoke any type of hoe, in the right conditions. Part of that reason is that the trencher is always employing the right digging technique. The conditions that the OP has pointed out are not ideal for trenchers. Even in your photos you can't see a single rock in that sandy ground. Cobbles would reak havoc on your trencher. I know that that big chain trencher can eat through rock. But small cobbles,, like those in glacial till, would come loose and jam up the works (especially on that bucket wheel trencher) but what's to keep the cobbles from falling out behind the stinger? Furthermore the trenching action would leave the ditch prone to cave-in. I have run a Trencor Jetco bucket wheel trencher that could dig as fast as you could walk. I have also ran big chain trenchors and rock wheels that can dig through solid rock, and pavement. They are impressive but you will have a hard time arguing the efficiency of them in the conditions mentioned above. Either way that's a conversation for the "Other Types of Earthmoving Equipment Thread".
Well I didn't know I would step on your toes with my post and I did not know it was an excavator thread, the way I read it was "How to dig a ditch fast" And thats tough s.... you hate trenchers. I will try to stay out of "your sandbox" and hopfully out of "your part of the world" I cut rock to and we have trenchers that can dig 40' deep and as wide as you want and our biggest cost over five million. Try this mid size rock trencher..... We also dig in rocks like these in Las Vegas. Nuff said :Banghead I'm done
[But small cobbles,, like those in glacial till, would come loose and jam up the works (especially on that bucket wheel trencher) but what's to keep the cobbles from falling out behind the stinger?] Well here is you answer, It is not sandy ground but calichi and rock did you not see them in the picture? I could go back and circle them for you but I don't have time. And we use a crumber and drags to keep the "cobbles" from falling in.
wow, give the guy a break fellas, he was just responding. no reason to get your panties all riled up. i have seen those trenchers cut hard rock it is amazing. anyways no trying to fan the fire.
Hey Dusty Roads, I know I'm a smart aleck, but,... You should have followed your own signature line. Better Luck Next Time, Mitch
My question is, if you put the trencher in reverse does it back fill?
You know I thought the same thing right after I started the first reply, when I read the next post and just coud'nt stop. After 12 hrs at work dealing with BLM, PE's dust control crew etc..Needed to let of some steam. :drinkup
we own a Vermeer 555 which for frost free installation is admittedly too small. the 555 is not enough machine to handle rocks. i would guess you could put a rock chain on it and do just fine cutting rock at three feet depth but for cobbles at eight feet it just goes ka-chunk! when talking about trenchers of this size there is a huge difference between rock and rocks. btw--while i jumped all over your first trencher post it was mostly sarcasm, i do understand that trenchers have their place.
Now THAT is absolutely perfect, mimics my reaction to a "T".
Folks, this thread is 6 pages long. Often times here at the forums alternate ideas get tossed in as suggestions. If you aren't interested, then just ignore them. There's no reason to hash out which is better here on the Board, each individual will have to make their own choice.
I have a few comments that I would like to present but I don't want my comments to be percieved as argumentative. In my last post I made comments based on my own personal experiences (regarding trenchers), and I felt I was offering something to both the previous posters (acknowledging what, IMO, were good points offered by them respectively, and attempting to difuse the situation some). As I read the posts, submitted after mine, it appears as though some may have found my post to be offensive to Dusty Roads. That was not my intention. Furthermore, if the comment made by Mitch, and reinterated by Alan, are directed towards me than I am offended. I don't feel as though I did anything deserving of name calling. In this one I would like to offer questions, clarify some of my previous comments, and maybe save a little face. Hopefully I can learn something. I don't have experience with the the big trenchers that you have in your photos (Dusty Roads). I would assume that they could handle rocks much easier than the trenchers I have experience with (< 70,000#). IMO chain trenchers can handle cobbles better than wheel trenchers. Do you not find it to be true that when rocks are held in clay type material (such as the caliche you mentioned) that it is easier to get the rocks to stay in place and thus allow the chain to cut through them? BTW one of the benefits of the trencher is the fine material you put up along the side of the ditch. I do see some chunks in the photo but I find it hard to tell that they are rocks (at first glance) when they are covered with caliche. In my mind the trouble for a trencher would come with sandy cobbles (cobbles in a more sandy than clay soil). IMO the steady crowding force and the continual movement of the digging mechanism (be it chain or wheel) will leave the walls prone to cave in. Is that your experience too? Lastly, you mentioned a crumbing shoe to pick up what falls behind the stinger. I am familiar with crumbing shoes but I considered that to be part of the stinger. I have seen cobbles, in between the shoe and the digging mechanism (again, insert chain or wheel here), bind up against the side of the trench causing dirt and rock to fall out behind the crumbing shoe. Has this happened to you, and if so what have you done about it?
DGODGR, My post was in no way directed at you, you just had a different thought, you didn't say Dusty shouldn't post his.
Thanks for your reply. I have found that it's easy to get the wrong message when reading posts on this type of forum. I'll endevor to keep that in mind when reading and replying. I don't want to hi-jack this thread but I would like to have a conversation about trenchors, including the questions in my last post. Maybe I will start another thread, or if someone wants to reply by doing the same, feel free.
This isn't the right place to advertise your business.
Once i asked my boss '' what do you want, good parts or fast parts''? he said.......I want good fast parts. the day is won by those who get it all right...........fastly!!
OK My opinion !!!! and back on topic I am a under ground super intendint, i think i have picked up alot of stuff from my 10years in a seat. 1 line up and walk your machine from steak to steak with strait tracks as possible.( so when you back up and your tracks are square you are strait) 2 start your bucket on the rite side as far over as you need to make your cut backs, stick out and cutting edge at 45 degree angle (most efficetnt to fill bucket) as you fill your bucket swing your machine back towards the spill no more than a quarter turn away from your far side of the ditch, after dumping stick out and set the bucket beside your first cut gradualy working across the ditch. 3 as you get deeper and are on the back swing shave your sides into the bottom to pick them up as you go, DONT SPEND MUCH TIME MAKING IT PRITTY. 4 take off any over hanging dirt and rocks aswell as making a swipe on each edge to make sure your spoil is well enough away and no lumps will fall down. 5 pull grade slowly and precisely , material should be pulled rite up to end of cut. ( dig it out in your next set) We just finnished 7 kms of gravity sewer with a 450 and a V bucket best thing ever for trenching.
I'm gonna Hijack this thread real quick because of one of the pictures that's been posted on here. While I don't have problems posting pictures of people working and in locations that at first glance look dangerous but really aren't. I just want to ask, in the second picture on post 83 is that a guy standing UNDER the unsupported bucket of an excavator?
Who hasnt stood under an excavator bucket? As far as trenching fast like other posters have said work from the top down making shallow passes, bottom of bucket usually enters the cut at around a 45 or so, level when making my bottom clean up pass. Just take enough depth with each pass so that my bucket is full at the end of my trench. I usually dig for 8-15 feet depending on machine size, dont go from max reach to right under my tracks. I pile my spoils as close to where they were removed, i usually start my pile a few feet from the top of the trench and keep dumping so that the material rolls to the backside of pile. while going to dump never stop swinging, material gets tossed out of the bucket right as im turning and headed back to the ditch. Dont stop above your ditch and lower the bucket in. I dont generally uncurl all the way i give the stick a flick and toss the material out. When im getting close to grade i will give the top sides a quick pass with the bucket level to clean up any loose material near the top, any sooner is a waste as you will probably end up doing it twice. Pretty simple, dont make any movements you dont need to, like crowding in while swinging back to the trench, lifting any higher than you need to to almost clear the spoil pile, etc. be in position to make your next pass as you near the top of the ditch. Oh and a good grade man can make things go a lot faster.
Really??
I have never stood under any type of bucket, loader, backhoe, excavator... I have never let any of my laborers stand under any bucket... i don't want to have to call and tell someones next of kin, and say jonny ain't comming home today, because i was dumb enough to let him stand under a excavator bucket...
Me; and anybody who worked for me, and anybody who came around my equipment, at least not without getting yelled at. Have you ever seen how fast they come down when a boom cylinder hose breaks?
Standing under a bucket is a sign of one of 2 things. First is that maybe it is someone new who hasent been trained yet not to do it. The second, and more problematic, is complacency. Sometimes those who work around hazards day in and day out forget how suddenly things can go wrong. Or they are thinking "It is a nearly new machine, so nothing is going to go wrong" It has been a long time since I have seen an excavator boom drop out of control, but I HAVE seen it happen, and it only takes once until you aren't coming home anymore. I do not want Deeretime to think we are picking on him, because I feel his operation looks good, just this one detail needs addressed. Some people do not even think about things like this. I drove up to one of my jobs one day, and the new hire had raised the loader bucket up, left it in the air, and got out of the machine and was doing something (I forget what) right under the raised bucket. Then he could not understand why I yelled at him. What made it worse was that loader had a touchy control valve, and I had seen it go to float for no good reason several times. I had nightmares about that one.
NEVER , EVER, my tractor busted a hydraulic hose once and the bucket fell like a rock, Ill never forget that day.
Depth perception in pictures is tricky, especially at a distance. Is the person actually under the bucket, or behind it? I can't tell.
No not at all... I had a JD 200clc boom bust in 1/2 when 2 laborers were close by, spraying them with hot hyd fluid... that was not a fun day.... Also i don't want tylermckee to think i am picking on him also...
altho it is not recomended it IMO is not as dangerous as you would think. The wmb Q/A has a manual lock in it so the bucket will never fall off unless you pull the pin then pull the lock and then pull the switch to move the wedge. I have never ever ever seen a complete hose failure resulting in a fast drop.
Deeretime I think the point we are all trying to make is that it has the potential to be deadly, and just because you haven't seen it happen, many of us here have. It is a very scary sight when it happens, and good operating pracvtices dictate to not put anyone in the position where thay will be hurt or killed on the odd chance of failure. I knew of an old mechanic who thought like that6. "I have never seen it happen" In his case it was dozer blades. He had only seen one slowly creep down. He had a habbit of going under unsupported blades to change edges a,d such. One day when he didn't come home, he was found under the blade, smashed into two pieces. There was a blown hose, and apparently it happened while he was under the blade, with the engine off. I haven't seen any other times where it happened, but it only takes once. This man had years of experience, and was complacent, thinking it could never happen. I have seen boom drops on hoes, fortunately with no one underneath, but it is one thing I will not compromise on.
I think one thing that makes working with an excavator different from say, a dozer, is that they get used as a lifting machine. They even have the capacity charts in the cab. This does not make them a "crane", but operators and workers work around them like they are similar. When in fact, they are not. Cranes have holding valves on the boom cylinders to prevent a failed hose from dropping the boom. Typically, excavators do not. It may be a rare thing for an excavator, or any machine for that matter, to suddenly drop. But I wouldn't want to be the one underneath a "haven't seen that before". Just ask any bug who has encountered windshield...you only get to do it once.
Yes you all have a verry Valid point and i agree the bucket over head is not the ideal working conditions. But the hook is on the inside of the bucket and we couldnt figure out a better location for it, There is one directly on the hitch but it is too high to reach on the ground. IMO my drive to work is far more dangerous than what my labouror is doing. Safe work procedures were put into place for that specific task and that is all that boy does all day, He is not to go underneath the bucket unless he has full eyecontact with the oporator aswell as the operator is not to move until the labour has ahold of one end of the pipe ensureing that there will be no contact. I wouldnt stand under the bucket of a old 245 or a old 892 but i have enough confidince in my people and my equipment for this task to be safe FOR ME and my company, I apreciate your concerns Evan Now i want to hear some #'s what is your best day and with what machie Our best day so far was there at 3m deep and with a 450dlc and 2 labours at 0.035% we were able to do just under 500lm Backfilled and compacted with 4 manholes set to grade oh that includes stripping the rite of way
I also thought that the person might have been standing between the bucket and the machine and wasn't technically under it. Most excavators do have holding valves now days and can be used as lifting devices. However that is not a reason to stand under a bucket or suspended load. How many times have you seen junk fall out of the bucket? How far does a rock have to fall to be damaging or even deadly? I've even seen teeth fall off.
he is standing between the bucket and the kart, and the only thing that the bucket is used for is screened 1" rock so if you have a hh on it dont bother you much lol
No one here is picking on anyone, I've been one of the first to defend some of the pictures that have been posted on here. But a safety concern is a safety concern no matter what. It's not the bucket falling off that scares me, it's the whole boom or the dipper coming down on the guy. I'm sorry Dt, but what you're saying here is to me completely and utterly wrong. Because you "FEEL" that's it's safe you put your men's life on the line. When that machine swings the pipe down to the guys in the hole do they stand under it? If not then tell me what makes that any different other then extra pieces? I can see that the operator is in the machine, does he flip up his lockout? Does he cross his hands in front of him? From what I detail I can see when I blow up the picture it looks like his hands are still on the controls. Again, I'm sorry but there are just too many things that could happen in a second that make that position untennable in my opinion. Now if you've got a guy dedicated to nothing but connecting cables, how hard is it to drop a the bucket on that machine so you can reach the hitch and connect properly?
I've been reading this with interest. I only have one question...is there anyway that this job can be done without anyone being under the raised boom/bucket? Simple enough question...
OK well in your opinion 95ziv it is wrong and you explained that. I want to know What your procedure would be to sling pipe????? If there was a way to do it without being under the bucket it would have been implemented My company my responcibility and my judgement, you may want to run your company diferently than i am, but at the time that was my soloution and at no time did the oporator or the labouror excercise their rite to preform unsafe tasks.
Talk about beating a dead horse. I can't believe this thread isn't locked yet.
Wow... first I have read this thread and ummmm I kinda agree with the boys here DT. I know others have asked but I really really wanna know, why is your hook "in" the bucket. I have seen some interesting locations for hooks... end of the stick, coupler.. back of bucket. All normal places and I will be honest all keep guys from not being under buckets. Why not weld a hook on the back side of the bucket as our company has done? Or weld a lifting hook on the end of the stick on the inside. Then you can crane in your manholes without standing under the bucket. I am sure down in Vulcan you heard about the accident up here, that should be enough to make ya think twice.
G4me, most people have the hook on the back of the bucket, not inside it; then you can stand outside the arc of a falling bucket. Once when I was confronted w/ something similar, I put the bucket on the ground, and attached a 3' sling to the hook. Then my guy could stand beside it, reach under and grab the sling, then make the hookup. If a hose failed, in the split second that he was reaching, the falling bucket would hit his arm, but not crush it, because the teeth would hit the ground first. I would rather tell a wife that I brought him home w/ a severely bruised arm, not that he wasn't coming home. Considering the odds in a half-second per lift of one hand under the bucket, versus the whole rigging time of your whole body under it, hopefully I would be asking the wife to bring clean underwear to her hubby, cause he can't ride in my truck like that. Btw, in my 25 years of working around equipment, I have seen 2 boom hoses fail, with the boom falling faster than you can realize, much less move; one on my machine. It did not take a complete parting, just a regular blow-out. The thing that suprised me was that neither one happened under a heavy load.
our normal hook is rite on the end of the coupler as usual, but with a full lift of pipe on the kart we cant get the bucket low enough to hook the sling on it, let alone getting to the hitch. Burnout what situation are you talking about? the one where the wbm quick hitches release? or sompthing diferent Because that machine is run with the manual lock in at all times. I can see your concerns and i apreciate them , and honestly if i seen some one else doing it i probably would be a little discusted, But that was what we had and it worked flawlessly , the whole job was done without a single incodent! The short sling on the inside of the bucked wouldnt work either because it would get cut off and probably tear the rating tags off of the sling
What about a short sling from the attachment point on the coupler and let it hang so you get the reach you need and the man can hook from behind the bucket? A 3 footer with ane eyelet shackled onto the coupler, and a hook with safety latch on the low end would make it easy. Just a thought. Or, as I have done in the past, a weld on hook on the back of the bucket down low enough to reach. I forget the brand, but I got a good deal on weld on, lifting rated hooks with integral safety catches. They worked really slick, and only take the welder an hour to put on. Not telling you how to run your job. Just trying to give you some ideas.
yea i tried the safety hook on the back of the bucket but it always ends up taking the safety off and screws the hook. atleast when it was inside it was only used with loose rock
I am also guilty of taking the easy path rather than the safe path at times, but I have also learned that easy can hurt! Could you attach a 2-3' cable sling to the hook (short enough to not reach the teeth) and just leave it in? Since it looks like that hoe just places gravel and sets pipe, the sling shouldn't be in the way. Then the groundman just has to reach across to grab the sling and can hook on from the edge of the bucket. A lot has been talked about how hoses blow and drop booms, and that is easy to discount because that rarely happens on new machines. I would be just as worried about the operator sneezing or dropping his soda or a hot ash falling on his leg! Unless Safety is repeatedly stressed, after a while you fall into a routine and that's when things happen. That operator has been setting pipe for 5 miles with the same guy on the ground and he knows it takes 25 seconds to hook up the pipe, so he places the bucket and then grabs his water bottle which slips and bumps the lever. Oops! That's never happened before... If there was a strict rule to engage the Safety Lock on the controls, or at least a crossed arms feet together Hands Off policy whenever somebody was in the danger zone, it might not be as risky, but it doesn't sound as if there is. I can tell you that if you were in the States, OSHA would buy that picture from you and only charge you about $25,000 for it! (per violation) Oh, stupid question, since the pipe is pretty lightweight, why not put a hook on the side or edge of the bucket? It wouldn't matter to have the weight offset, and it would speed up the operation and remove the safety issue. Ben~
Why lock it? There is a lot of good information in this thread from experienced operators. None of us wants to see anyone get hurt or killed on the jobsite. If opinons ruffle a few feathers then so be it. From what I'm reading everyone seems to be keeping their cool. If it gets out of hand admin will take care of it.
Im against locking it too. Shutting this or any thread down is a form of censorship.
I am talking about just welding a hook right on the back side of the bucket, I am sure your regular cleanup bucket has one since I see your using a wrist in that picture. The hook or loop on the back side is the only way to go for water/sewer. The loop on the end of the stick is nice as well for pulling out heavier objects like drills for auger shots. OHSA is crackin down on stuff like this around here. Thats the kind of crap that shuts a site down man.
Old thread, but still a good question. Think safety at all times! Say you're using a Cat 320 hoe size machine, digging 4' deep, dumping the spoils along side ditch. Reach out about 3/4 of your max reach, angle the bucket with teeth(or cutting edge) a little lower than the back of your bucket, try a 2' cut, pull stick in while adjusting boom up. When you feel that first heavy load, slow down on stick, raise boom up a hair, pull stick aggressively and curl bucket in. IF bucket is'nt full enough, you may need to pull stick in farther lowering boom when stick is closer to cab and then curl bucket in. Try and stay level adjusting your boom depending where your stick is. Bring bucket full up and dump just far enough away so you don't have to reach over the spoil pile every time you dump. Your next cut may be 1' or less as you get closer to grade. If you are rocking on rough ground, take the time to back up 1', put a wheel barrel full of material in front of each track and track forward to stop rocking. If you can grade with the teeth or cutting edge I think it saves at least an hour a day verses grading with bottom of bucket. of course all of this can be adjusted except the think safety advice.
kind of the same as shooting a gun. slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Stay off the Cell Phone and get your mind on your business and DIG - DIG - DIG - DIG- DIG.