hey all, im kinda new here, and i have a strong interest in earth moving equipment and especially in bulldozers, and i am trying to figure out how i can make a good living out of this. Im not interested in doing something such as becoming a professional dozer driver, im more interested in buying a dozer and making money from it and buying more machines with that money and getting a good business going. but i dont know how to do it exactly, do i employ people and contract work? do i just rent the machines out? or something else? little bit of info about me - Im 26, I live in Australia, and i probably have the borrowing potential to buy a 2nd hand D8n, or something like that. any help would be much apreciated.
To make a long story short, my advice is simple: to make a living with a Dozer. It most definitely can be done, and where there is a will to do, there are a dozen ways to accomplish any difficult task at hand. Go for it....
Couple of questions first - What experience do you have operating? Have you owned a business before? Do you have a business plan? This doesn't have to be an academic paper that's fine tuned but you have to have a direction in mind to go. What/who is your target customer base? What kind of insurance is standard for your area? Is the local market over served or under served by the type of business you are planning?
In my opinion the available work for just a dozer by itself is limited. A lot of jobs are going to require more than just a dozer to complete which puts you either renting equipment or hiring sub contractors to complete the jobs. There is a market for just dozer work, it is just a small market. These days with work as hard to come by as it is, I think it is best to best to be as versatile as possible. Maybe that isn't as big a deal in other parts of the world. Most people around here own a backhoe or skid steer if its a one machine operation. I understand where your coming from, I enjoy dozing more than anything else. But at the same time, making money is at the top of my business priority list!
i have several hundred hours experience operating a small dozer, i work in a my family business. i haven't owned a business before my business plan is to eventually own quite a few machines and either rent them out, or do contract work, or whatever is wanted at the time. customer base, at first i would think renting out to other construction companies etc., and doing contract work for farmers etc. and eventually move in to quarries, mines and large construction projects. not sure about insurance. also not that sure about the local market, there is a quarry near to where i live, there is a huge mine that is suppose to be starting in the next couple of years like 6 km from where i live, and there are always always road works going on here. in the local town where i live there is a company "Millers Contractors" and they have 50 or so machines of different sizes and uses. apart from them being there i dont really know about the market and how saturated it is. and i hear what you're saying LT-x7
I understand your thought's thetabop . Don't know how the economy is your area ? In my opinion this aint a good time to take on extra debt or borrow money betting on a job for the equipment. My advice would be drop an application off at the quarry or the mine close to you and work for them awhile to get some experience on the task . Make a little money & buy a dozer when possible & work on the side and see how that go's after a few years. Best of luck with it .
IMHO fist machine you buy has to go with work available in the area. For example if you live in a suburb with a major city a hair away there is probably going to be more of a market for excavation from other contractors who do thing like plumbing and electric work. If you live out in the stix allot of farmers and other people need some land cleared or roads built or maintained and most of the time those dirt roads they dont need the precision of a grader just some what flat a dozer would be a good choice. My fist machine was a backhoe then I got my skid steer . Hopefully if business continues to go in the direction it's going for me I would like to add a min ex to the fleet
My advice would be to learn about the requirements of organizing your new business and go to work on that, and the other systems of your business before you start building a fleet of equipment. If your area is anything like the us, you can start a business, and put a couple of hundred dollars toward marketing with a budget of less than 2,000.00. Find an equipment rental company in your area, and serve your customers with rental iron for the first few months or a year, then make a purchase once you understand who your customers are, and what they need. Bear in mind, you will pay more for rental equipment so your margins will be thinner until you switch from a rental payment to a bank finance payment, but its better than buying a D8N only to find out what your market and customers really needs is a backhoe loader and an extruded curb machine or something.
that's good advice, my father has a JD 450j bulldozer, so for starters i'm gonna start doing work with that, that way I can avoid expensive equipment hire. I figure after 6 months or a year i'll have a good idea of what I want and what other people need etc. and ill likely buy my own machine and go from there.
This is a very interesting topic!i first started working for various companies gathering all sorts of experience which has helped immensely over the years. I started with a d8h on my own but work was limited(mostly land clearing)and costs to keep 8h running limited earnings. Teamed up with partner to get access to more equipment and bigger jobs. With partner we built up to 35 various machines. Then sold and I'm nearing 20 machines again.if I were to do it again I would start with smaller good used machine and get in good with a contractor so that when it's slow I can operate for them and maintain payments. I have a few owner operators that work for me that do exactly this. When they don't have work on their own they run our equip and various other contractors. It is quite feasible and you have to be flexible and it can be done. Good luck!
There's your answer. Now if your Pop will let you "borrow" it is a different story. Seriously, that is the route I would go. Test the waters and see what the market is in your area without saddling yourself with debt or spending all your capital upfront.
yeah thats my plan
if you can, borrow the 450j. see if you can build a customer base. while doing this over the course of a year or so, log what other contractors have service/machine wise and see if you can develop a niche that no one else has. find a customer base than no else seems to care about and take care of those customers. purchase equipment than no one else has and exploit it to your full potential. look at what the rental houses have and see what they are overlooking. for example, where I am from, everyone and their dog has a backhoe. so I don't own one because I cant justify it. In the past I hired others with backhoes to finish a job I couldn't do such as a septic system, or utilites tie in, and when I was younger and less experienced the backhoe owners would sometimes take my customers after completing the job that I hired them to do. that is a nasty feeling. I recently purchased a Takeuchi mini ex just for the purpose of not having to deal with other contractors and the issues that arise from such arrangements. I started my company in march 2002 with no experience other than being a farmhand. I purchased a used D4c and immediately had to start dumping money into it. 60 days later I broke my leg and was laid off at my job as a warehouse employee for walmart. it was very rough going at first, with no way to haul my equipment. My father helped me out and loaned me his 1979 chevy flat bed 1 ton pickup, and purchased me a 30 ft. gooseneck trailer on a credit card with zero interest. I was very thankful and proud to have the trailer and pickup. which leads me to my next point: be sure you have a means of transporting your own equipment. I cannot stress how important that is. your competitors will not haul your equipment when you need it the most. it does not benefit them to do so. you cannot afford to rent a machine and then pay a delivery and pickup charge. it simply wont benefit your bottom line. last but not least, being mechanically inclined will not hurt a bit. there will be times that you will have to spin a wrench or two, probably more than not. also have enough operating capital to finish a job. when I landed my first dozer job, it was cleaning out a patch of stumps for a 20 acre show pen for cattle. I started this job on crutches, with no income for 90+ days, and when I fueled my dozer up I would back my 4wd lifted dodge up to the rear of the dozer and fill it with multiple 5 gallon jugs. was not fun on crutches. but I finished the job, and worked for the man clearing his land for many years afterwards. we became friends and I enjoyed working for him. So, if you're gonna play this game you have to have a good attitude, and some good luck never hurt. looking back on it all I don't know how I made it, but i wouldn't change a thing and feel quite fortunate and blessed to be involved at the level I am now.
hey Lindsey, thanks for your post, it is very informative. I am able to use the 450j freely, i don't have a means of transport yet beyond the local trucking companies, i don't even have a truck license, however i am only just starting and getting a mode of transport is on my shorter list. It is my intention to work on my fathers farm, while doing what jobs i can get, over the next year while I get a feel for the game and what is needed of me and what machines are needed. So far i have done all the mechanical work and services of the 450j so I should be fine for handling basically anything that the manual covers.
how do you all advertise? through plant hire places that subcontract owner operators?
The largest component of my marketing scheme has been contacting GC's and getting on their bid lists. This takes a while to build a roster of GC's, bid the work and get a job but it will pay off. Also a website is a must.
whats GC stand for?
General Contractor. They are the main contractor who holds the contract with the owner. I am a subcontractor or sub who works for the general.
I all way's fear the repairs. The bigger the machine the larger the repair bill. Even the 450 could brake you with one failure.
ah cool, thanks CM1955. im not too scared of the repairs, i have some borrowing capacity to pay for repairs if needed, i also have some wealthy friends that might be interested in doing a partnership. so i can get a boost in machine acquisition rate, and repairs if need be
The thing is you can have the best business plan, all the equipment and piles of money. But i you do not have the skills/talent to efficiently/safely complete a project and do it right your time is short lived. There is a lot of things in this trade that are only learned first hand.
Not sure about your area but even the bigger operations around here have all the equipment they need and rent next to nothing from the small guys. They used to hire out some of the seeding and such but now they are even doing that themselves.
In my state there seems to be about 5 general contractors looking for smaller owner operators. And I know what you mean DoyleX, I'm working with the Dozer every day on our farm, forever learning!
In my area the projects are so competitive that the GC's don't have the appetite for hourly work and only want a hard number for the job, which I don't blame them. All the large civil contractors have taken pretty much everything in house to keep their guys busy as well.
I cant yet really comment on that aspect of the competition here, but from what I can tell it isn't as bad as it seems to be where you work. Was just talking to a GC on a phone a couple of minutes ago, about registering with them, and they were very interested in hiring me, and quoted some average hourly rates and indicated a couple of jobs in my area.
Good deal!:thumbsup Your first step is to get your name out there and get someone to give you a chance to do a job.
thats pretty much how it is here. they dont want to hear the cost of an hour they want one price and that is it
I wonder if hourly vs hard bid is a cultural/market difference I never work hourly unless its on a custom project with no drawings. @DoyleX I couldn't agree with you more. I have never heard of a successful investor/business person entering this industry as a contractor, just because they think the return on investment is good. Every contractor I know is interested in/in love with the technical side of the business, which poses some interesting challenges for the typical contractor business model as a whole. I don't know any contractors who enjoy invoicing, or hammering out job costing to find their critical indicators :bash I see it all as being critical.
I agree with you acivil, but at first ill only want hourly jobs, cuz being able to quote accurately takes time and practice
Also having someone to update/maintain a website is important. I'm currently having that problem. I don't speak computer!
Make sure that the GC's that you're looking to work for don't owe money to other subs. It's better to avoid those guys before they owe you money and decide that it's time for them to avoid you .
i have my wife for that, and all my paper work
The main GCs that i'm signing up with are the 4 biggest in the state, pretty sure they should be trust worthy, but what you say is good advice, thanks
Big companies are often slow payers. Just a warning.
Business consultants strongly suggest that you come up with a realistic "Exit Plan" right along with your "Entry Plan". Think about it, then write it down. Financial institutions cover their bets and so should you. "Too big to fail" doesn't work for most of us.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hourly work, on the contrary I think it's the best variety of work a contractor can get- there's very limited risk associated with it... I would do nothing but hourly work if I could make the stars line up enough to keep it all the time. Also, I wouldn't necessarily say the biggest contractors are slow payers, I am aware of one of the largest retail builders in the world that will pay you within 48 hrs of invoicing if you are willing to give a 6% discount, but you definitely MUST have your paperwork/documentation in order or things can get rough. @Lindsey97 I don't really speak computer either, but I recently learned to set up sites... it can be done in about 5 minutes by someone fairly computer illiterate. I use Godaddy.com, with a wordpress.org based site hosted on godaddy's linux hosting plan. You can sign up online, then call their customer support and they'll take you through it step by step on the phone, just tell them you want to set up wordpress for your domain, then start adding wordpress plugins (free programs that serve pretty much any function under the sun) through the wordpress dashboard (which tech support will help you set up) and it's pretty much plug and play from there.
That's how the company where I work was, so when I had to have a small machine shop or other business do work for us I would advise them to put something on the invoice saying: "Less 10% net 30 days" then told them to just raise the price 10%. Might be a little crooked to some but both parties involved felt they got a good deal. Otherwise payment took 90+ days. I don't know if the company still works this way, but I think 90+ days is the minimum now. That is unless you owe them something then it's COD!
what exactly do you mean by an exit plan Rsherril?
im reading through the contract for one of the GCs, and it has some stuff in there that seems pretty bad to me, like if a customer doesnt pay in 90 days, or states he wont pay, or goes bankrupt or for any other reason hasnt payed the full amount in 90 days i have to purchase the debt from the GC. on top of that it has a clause that states that i will never do any work at all for any customer that has been introduced to me by the GC, and that this clause survives the termination or expiry of this contract. in other words if i work for them long enough i would not be able to do basically any work anywhere on my own with out getting the job from the GC, i would effectivly remove any chance of making my own company in the future, because half of the pontential customers in the state had already had service from me, through the GC this sound normal to you guys? actually i reread, and it says 'for the restraint period' with no mention of how long that is
The first one yes, "paid when paid" is standard boiler plate. The second, no I haven't seen that one. I don't know what the laws are in AUS. but that clause wouldn't stand up in court here.
Just because they send you a contract with terms that are not acceptable to you doesn't mean that they won't sign one with terms that are. You just have to start negotiating now that you have a place to start.
Exit Plan - How to get out of the business ahead of the game. Mine is fairly simple as this is not my primary income. My anticipated expenses including capital investment pro rated over ten years. After ten years I expect to have paid my equipment and expenses off. At that time I can sell or go for a while longer. To date, (five years), I am 75 % paid off on my original investment and 100% on expenses. Of course I'm working for less than minimum wage my self, but solved a lot of issues getting our roads taken care of in a timely manner. Perhaps you might say I should not even call it a business, however I expect my "hobby" to pay for itself and might even make a little when I do exit. I understand that not all contingencies can be planned for and I could see my grader sold for scrap value before I meet my goals, (had that happen to a 180 cfm air compressor, when I burned a crank shaft, but it did serve the larger goal in the meantime). I think it comes down to setting short term goals with a long term goal in mind. HEF is invaluable in this respect and I thank you people for the information that has helped keep me and my machines working that direction.
Like others have said - have a plan. -Do some research. No use starting a business with a dozer when there is no dozer work. The work needs to be there. - know your general contractors as well as your competitors. - try and be versatile. Dozer is a machine with fairly limited abilities when compared to excavators,wheeled and tracked skid steers and track loaders. - have your own means of moving your machine(s). - take advantage of the fact that you already have a dozer. Try and work out a deal that allows you its use to get started with a next to nothing hourly charge by its owner. Reassure them that once on your feet financially you will square up with them. This would allow you to take any capital you have and get a second machine such as a small excavator or track skid steer to help your company be versatile and go after more work. - learn to run your machines. Trust me. I have seen the downfalls of owners who cannot do the work themselves. Lets say you quote a job for a bunch of finish grading on a site. Your operator can do the work but you would have a hard time. You may find yourself with a guy who suddenly wants more money,a company vehicle etc. It just starts to snowball from there. You need to be able to do the work. - with that said, if you do grow , you are going to need a good 'right hand' man. Treat him/her well. Good pay, vehicle, maybe a small percentage of profits etc. If you treat them poorly be prepared to be training your future competition. - try and be honest with your customers. If you say you will do something .Do it. Meet schedules, costs etc. on time and do not nickle and dime your customers. If an extra is legitimate, that is fine, but do not go after every little thing. Short term gains may be had but you will loose the respect and ultimately the work of clients. - when I was 26 I was learning how to operate machines. I was no where near ready to handle contracts,money,employees etc. Be willing to wait a few years and in the mean time learn your trade,become the best (or one of the best) at what you do and learn by reading up and studying business and how it works. Good luck on your endevors Lowbed Driver
Yes it does, but being able to quote work the same way a general contractor has to is extremely important to the estimator for the GC looking for quotes from subcontractors going into a hard bid. For example, a paving contractor is bidding a large paving job that has some dirt work on it that is paid by the cubic yard (or cubic meter, or however it's paid just not by the hour) and asks for quotes from some local dirt movers. They send a quote that says "$150/hr for dozer- $225/hr for scraper." (or something like that) This is extremely frustrating for that estimator because he then has to either call you back and ask for a unit price or he has to take extra time and basically figure your estimate for you based on your hourly rate so he gets the right number in his bid. If you are the only person in your market area supplying a quote for this type of work, you can get away with quoting just hourly rates for a while. But if you are competing with other subcontractors and they quote it differently than you do, that estimator might throw your quote out even though you may have ended up cheaper if he backed out the price per hour for the other subcontractors. If you can secure the hourly work go for it because it carries less risk but every time you do it, be tracking cost and productions so you can accurately give unit price quotes when it's necessary. Good Luck!!!
i agree you need a good attitude and alot of hard work. just the way you started. however its not going to be easy and equiptment truck, trailer, insurance, plates are all very expensive. you need to run the dozer your self and be able to do repairs your self. it will be tough but it can be done.
thanks AustinM, ill keep that in mind
Very good advice if you are wanting to do bid work. Try to be as detailed as possible in your bid concerning what scope of work you are pricing. For example if its clearing/grubbing, stripping topsoil, bulk cut/fill and re-spread, list each item separately and your quantities either taken off by you or quantities given to you in the bid documents. Price each portion separately with a subtotal on your bid. The goal is for the estimator you are presenting the bid to knows that you have put forth time to give an accurate bid from the contract documents. Estimators and PM's don't like surprises after the job is let and they think you have a certain SOW (scope of work) covered and you didn't. Now on the contrary don't be too detailed in breaking out your pricing as I believe this can lead to bid shopping or breaking out certain SOW's because you are cheaper than the guy they want to use - you want the cream of the job to go with the ****tier parts of the project. For example when I bid the storm sewer portion of a job I don't break it down into price per FT of pipe or price per structure. I list the amount of pipe, structures and anything ancillary to that SOW but give a lump sum price. I have had many an estimator go with my bid, even if I wasn't low, because it was more detailed than the others and of course from past experiences working with them. It takes attention to detail from the bidding stage to the final close out and every stage in between to be a successful contractor.