I noticed my machine a Cat 953 with the 3204, 4 cylinder diesel engine was starting to run warm. The engine was getting a fair covering of black soot on the fuel system and manifold side. Upon examining the manifold a bolt head popped off and it blew out the gasket. Machine was on mission critical job so I ran it for a fat week or two like that. I brought the tractor back to shop and proceeded to removed the exhaust, turbo misc things around it and I raised the cab and installed the safety bar. Most of the exhaust bolts needed a gas axe to remove. 5 bolts broke off in the head and 1 was already broke so 6 of 8 locked into the head. I used a welder and was able to get two out by welding nuts onto the studs. One took 3 attempts and one was easy. The long large center bolts 4 of em, were a different story after welding 3 nuts on each one and each time the bolt snapping there was nothing left to weld to. 2 days into this. I used a centering punch and located the center of the bolt with an punch. After starting to drill the holes in the broken bolt the drill still moved off center. I had hopes of an easy out working but that was a joke. The bolts were basically rust welded to head. I tried a torch with heat no go. Before the drilling began I should have went full stop and built a drill guide plate to ensure the bit went where it was supposed to. But I felt I could get the hand drill close enough. It walked slightly and also leaned about 2*s in the wrong direction. No big deal there should be enough play in the manifold... Nope it was too tight and about impossible to open the existing hole up to give it a little play. The manifold has hardened and it was eating standard drill bits. I tried a nice reamer it cut about 1/2 way and also burnt up. I tried a grinding stone and it burnt that up. I ordered some carbide deburring bits for a die grinder to see what that does. The old manifold is ruined i am using it as a guide to make sure everything will work with the new one that is on the way. So after sleeping on it, now day 3 rolls around. Two bolts are going in but one due to extreme pressure has ruined 1/2 the length of the new threaded hole I made. These are 3/8s x 16 bolts. I decided to make a set of 4 hardened studs to put in the hole and use a nut to hold the manifold on the studs. This allow me to deepen the holes in the head so they had a better bite. Hand tapping the 4 holes is fun luckly, I have some excellent old school burbank tooling that held up to the cast iron. I did not do a perfect job because small parts of the old bolts were in my threads. I took a torch and corrected the stud angle at the head. Bent them slighty. So the old manifold now goes on. I just need to cut out a little metal to get it to slide all the way down. This repair is going to take 4 days and is not perfect. I feel like the grade 8 bolts I cut down and threaded will be ok for the studs. Do you think my repair will hold? Any of you pros have better methods? Or suggestions for a better job?
Me personally id have pulled the head and sent it to the machine shop it probably needs a valve job. Make it a them problem or find another head what kind of shap is the gasket surface in
Cat does have a drill guide for manifold studs but I can't remember if it fits 3204 it has a lot of different configurations it has hardened guides small pilot drill and tap drill sizes only thing we used to say is don't drill till you hit green Meaning don't drill into water jacket it was always a good idea to mark your drill bit on a good hole before drilling. It sure made that job lots lots easier.
The ones ive seen only did 33 and 3400 series
I believe the head surface is still fine. I think a new gasket will fix it. Any one ever tried using two gaskets? The manifold was burnt up on the right side and cracked so it is junk. The riser has broken bolts in it also have not messed with it yet. Common sense tells me that it should all be redone head included because it is probably designed to all wear out a the same rate. But me trying to save a dollar is going to run it some more, till it breaks somewhere else. The machine runs good and does not have any gasket issues. It might now that I put so much heat to the studs. Who knows...
Same recollection here. Like Tyler I think I would have been pulling the head and let a machine shop tackle it with a vertical borer.
What kind of money does Cat charge to fix something like this?
How do you know if it needs a valve job?
In general, unless it was a big dealership with their own in-house machine shop, a Cat dealer would farm the job out to an external supplier. Cut out the middle man and send it there yourself would be my best suggestion.
It may not but if it has any hours on it it very well could good chance to give it some tlc
Nige is there a reman available?
There may be but I am out in the sticks @ the moment with no access to check (didn’t bring computer on purpose). When I get to town tomorrow I could take a look but need the machine Serial Number to make things easier. Pricing a Reman component might cause the OP a sharp intake of breath.
It is a later 20z 03338
a quick google brough this up. A bit rich for me
OK, so that is an Upgrade-to-New (UTN) head where the buyer gets a brand-new component for his used Core. Is there a price for a Reman (refurbished used) head.? It ought to be about half the price of a UTN head.
Have done a lot of them with a home made steel block about 1.5 inches thick with the correct hole in it for installing a 3/8-16 heli-coil drill bit. I used a new manifold gasket for hole location. Went to further holes out for securement and clamped the block down. The ones with bad threads got heli-coiled and installed new OEM Studs. The ones I did were on Komatsu D85 and D155 engines. They worked. Have welded out lots of them on 3306 and 3406 engines with a washer below the nut I weld on. Used some special Xergon HPM 1000 rod and they all came out. Trick a guy showed me was to use vice grips on the nut so that you can feel if anything is letting go in small movements. Use and electronic helmut to weld and bolt another plate to head to start the rod on and jump onto the nut with rod red hot. That is one of my tricks Simon C
Yep one broken bolt and blown gasket can turn into a $5000.00 repair. That manifold is common $175.00 and lots of choices on ebay. Got bins of bolts laying around and 2 gaskets was 20.00 The carbide bits were another 100.00. Hopefully i can button it back up and then start rebuilding the lift cylinders.
I tried a 6010 rod and a 7018 rod and the washer on the last attempt. Once when I was tapping the weld flux/carbon off the bolt just snapped. The bolts where very brittle. But they were surprisingly easy to drill out. I sharpened the bit about 4 times for each bolt and stepped up in drill sizes. What actually got me was I should have slowed down and looked the old manifold over better before I tackled the center bolts. The drilling out was later in the second day. I was thinking they would let go and come loose but they did not. I did use a guide to set my puch mark but as it started cutting it moved just a little. I also thought they were all short bolts, so close, would have been fine. Those being so long made the tolerances much more important.
Thats the only number ive found
I actually saw quite a few 953s do the broken bolt cracked manifold thing I don't think I would be too worried about a valve job I'm sure if you get the exhaust leak fixed it will run a lot better exhaust leak equals low boost
The problem with the 6010 rod is its not strong and no flexibility. HPM 1000 is 135000-140000 strength and very elastic. There are a few other companies that sell small packets of the quality high strength rods. Run with what you have now and you can always do the other style repair another time if down time is not too bad. Simon C
By the way there is one for 3204
Have to add that to the info stash
Just a little side thing that you might like to get sorted is the exhaust manifolds for these engines can fit both ways, so that is stick it on the head it will fit but turn it end over it still fits, the thing is it should only fit 1 way and by fitting it incorrectly you get gasket and bolt problems from the heat, on the broken studs well it's all been well covered by other people and all I can say is you should of asked after you snapped off the first bolt how best to go forward, they would have possibly come loose with the right application, in the end they would drill out easily I do this task often with good results, you can correct damaged holes with the Heli Coil type fix at worst, the parts listing of the manifold will show you the correct setting for it, don't get it wrong chap . best of luck tctractors.
610 rod are made for D.C. power really, an inverter type welder will struggle to fire them, 7016 or 7018 are the boys and they put a lot of heat into the job, my preferred rod is the 7016 as they reach the 7'000ps better than 7018, the higher strength rods are not easy to pick up in General Store's
There is quite a few suppliers of Rod made especially for welding out broken bolts, such as Inweld, Eagle Alloys, Xergon and some others. Some sell by small packets, others by the Pound or box. I have used many times with success. Have also done with 7018 and sometimes was good also. Simon C
Specialty rods are usually 120-130,000 tensile and will list for hard to weld steels, spring steel and broken bolts. They are stainless based similar to 312 stainless.
Thanks TC I did not realize they could go either way. The bolts that broke in the center of the manifold were about 50% rusted away near the head. They did not have much meat left. Hopefully I can figure out which way to install the new part when ever it shows up.
I decided to purchase a new die grinder kit with carbide bits for metal removal. The long reach bits were 20.00 or so for the 5 bits and the 2 die grinders with 10 shorter carbide bits were about 70.00 from Amazon. 2 days shipping included. I decided to order some new ones, just to make sure the collets were in good shape. At high speed the metal just burns right off the manifold I should be able to shape the bolt holes just right with this tool. Harbor freight sells their version for about 3 to 4 times the cost on the bits. I did a fair amount of testing with one of them it seemed like the bits would last a good while. Amazon.com: VEVOR Air Die Grinder Kit, Right Angle Grinder w/Die Grinder Combo & 10PCS Single Cut Carbide Burr Set, Lightweight, Ball Bearing Construction for Grinding, Deburring, Cutting, Polishing : Tools & Home Improvement Amazon.com: VEVOR Air Die Grinder Kit, Right Angle Grinder w/Die Grinder Combo & 10PCS Single Cut Carbide Burr Set, Lightweight, Ball Bearing Construction for Grinding, Deburring, Cutting, Polishing : Tools & Home Improvement www.amazon.com
You have to be extra careful with the long burrs. If you use too much pressure they will get a slight bend and wobble out of balance pretty bad.
For stud extraction. I used to have a fleet of 460 powered Econolines that would snap the rear exhaust manifold studs. A drill didnt fit. Also works well on LS powered full size pickup truck motors (aluminum heads).
Been there and done that. If it hogs in a little it will bend instantly if strong die grinder. Simon C
Don't forget to look at a parts listing to show the correct way to fit the manifold, never think that it's the way you removed it off the engine as like lots of things in life it's been done before so check, I have to say those 6 little 3/8"bolts look to have completely beaten you, I cannot understand how you managed to knacker up the task, you are showing great skill at doing damage to your equipment,wishing you all the Best for the Year Ahead.
If can be drilled and using 90* drill head in tight spots, I use Cyclone bits to center drill first then step up. Drill till bottomed, then soak with a penetrating fluid. Then use left handed bits. I've removed many broken in 3406 heads. Never have welded any. Probably done 50 plus inframe through the years. But using homemade studs from bolts, rarely is the thread even. Personally I would buy new. And like said above the best way is in a cylinder head/guide machine that can be set up for a perfect dead center every time. Normally can use a o-ring pick to lift the start of old thread and grab with pliers and will spiral/uncoil it's self out of hole looking like a coil spring leaving original threads. JMO
I drilled quite a few on 3406 and 3306 with a tiny bit till through the bottom. It takes patience so the bit will not snap off in the hole from not pulling out often enough to clean the swarf out. Then I put oil down the center of the hole and let sit after I warm up with a propane torch to help the penetrating oil to get into the threads. And yes the left hand bits have pulled a lot of them out. That is my experience. Simon C
This has been a fun task. Thank you everyone for your suggestions. What I did learn from this is this: Once you have the manifold off and you have broken bolts, mine was 6 of 8. All 4 long bolts were broken. The Short manifold bolts dont matter as much as the long ones. If the longs ones are stuck do this. Try the welder trick. What ever does not come out then do this. Grind broken bolts flat on the head. Cut a piece of flat plate mark out your hole pattern using the old manifold as a guide. Then bolt it on head and use that as guide to insure that as you drill you are holding the hand drill at the correct angle. It is about impossible to do multiple long bolts perfect so spend your time doing that first. I think I have made a lot of progress with this and it is a done deal. Looking over my repair it will be just fine. Manufacturers make things and I can make things. There is always more than one way to make a repair. If something with this repair does not hold. It is now an easy fix. I dont have hardware that is rusted out and old. I can simply remove a nut and slide manifold right off. If my threading job fails then I will enlarge the stud hole and rethread it. I could make a solid threaded plug for that hole and then drill and tap the plug for proper size stud and or I could just make a bigger stud then turn it down on the lathe to the 3/8s dimension the manifold wants. I am not in the least bit worried about it. No damage done and it is fixed just took a little longer than I wanted. Happy new year all. May you find good health, peace and prosperity!
X2
TC, with all seriousness, how is the correct way to remove those broken bolts. I have tried and had some success with welding, drilling, just about everything. I am currently replacing the exhaust again on my Case 580 as it keeps breaking the muffler, mounted directly on the exhaust manifold. I think I will try a short adapter first, then the muffler, hoping this takes some vibration off the bottom of the muffler. What worries me, is if the exhaust manifold ever breaks or cracks, all the bolt heads, I think they were originally 3/8 bolts with 9/16 heads, are so rusted after 35 years are unrecognizable as even bolt heads, Even getting a 1/2” socket will be impossible, more like 7/16”. In the past, I would cut the heads off flush, to get the manifold off. That would leave 2” long studs to get cherry red and float some wax or whatever and with heat changes and penetrant, might be able to get out with vice grips or a knurled socket. What is a better way? Give me some knowledge please! If really bad, I may pull head off and use my mill.
Worked with a welder together to get out some studs broke off flush. He heated the manifold around where the stud was till cherry hot and we chilled with cold water. Had a nut welded to it and after 2-3 tries they came out with penetrating oil in between. Holes had to be heli-coiled afterwards as there was not enough thread for proper engagement. I have used a carbide bit, super expensive to get oil to back side of hole, and this can help to free up. It can be pretty tough to get some out. The exhaust piece I mentioned was over$3000 from Komatsu so the 2 hours to get out was worth it. Simon C
I do lots of drilling of failed studs on engines the common size would be the 3/8" and 1/2" studs, on the 3204 engine the exhaust face of the manifold is at a slant making the task not to bad to do as the injector pump can stay in position, the requirement hear is to seal off the exhaust ports well and have a magnet of some form handy to gather up drilling's, if i can I try the washer and welding rod trick, if I cannot I just clean up the surface and center punch the flush to the head stump and take every care to drill in using a small high quality drill, the thing is every care needed for this first pilot hole and not drilling in hard until I am happy with it's position, this can be corrected without a problem by leaning the drill to go as needed, then I drill into the stud using at least 3 drill sizes to arrive at the drill that will fit in without damaging the threads in the head, then its down to picking out the stud treads with an assortment of picks and very thin nosed pliers, or just get handy with the tap set slow and steady job done, on the 3304/6 engine often the injector pump will need to be removed with the closest bolt to the timing cover needing a very long drill to reach, for this I just get a bit of thread rod long enough to the task and drill in the end of the rod about 3/4" then cut a small notch out of the side of the bar and weld the now positioned drill in place with a blob of weld, never use Stainless studs as they are nothing but trouble.
The cheap E bay special turned out to be an ITR manifold from china. As far as I can tell it looks good. The gaskets I ended up with I am not so sure about. I bought 2. They look like a thin piece of aluminum. Is this type of gasket any good?
With both surfaces being flat and properly torqued the gasket will work.
All the itr stuff i have got was good hasnt been alot tho
I get a good amount of heads and manifolds sent to me with broken studs. 8 times out of 10 they come complete with broken drill or ezi out. That's good because the job takes a lot longer. Depending on the circumstance it will go on the mill and I use a carbide end mill. I can usually get the stud out without damaging the thread. Drills are prone to wandering off centre so don't use them much. I sometimes spark erode them out which does a good job but is slow. If you can weld a nut or washer to the stud that often works but use a MIG,not stick. A bit of patience working the nut back and fort will do the trick. We did have a bloke bring us a Scania head. He had been trying to get it out for 5 days . Broken off the exi out and generally made a mess of it. His boss was about to sack him because the truck had a schedule to keep. It took us 1 1/2 hours and charged him 150 bucks. You would have thought we had stolen his missus. Spread a story around about how expensive we were and how we ripped him off. I should have charged him double and it would have still been cheap.
I seem to remember the cat gaskets being like that
Why not stick welding? They even make special rod's for studs broken in the hole that the flux prevents welding the threads. I can see Mig for getting the arc right where you want it or for non experienced welders.
I guess I must be inexperienced because MiG seems much easier and because I can keep the gun on it much longer, the heat transfer is a lot better. I have used some of the specialty rods and some 308L rods and much prefer stick, if its a large bolt but usually it’s under 1/2” and the MiG works better for me.
Best to use high alloy or super strength rod as Stainless is very hard to drill out if welding does not work. Agree with Dave and I have some of the rod that the flux protects the thread and I have tried couple times and was good. Just my experience. Simon C
The stick rod I showed above is the one that coats the threads with the slag. Anyone say use a mig has never used those Esab rods. Weld til it quits (3/4 of a second), watch the slag pop off (less than 2 seconds), weld again, lather, rinse, repeat, until the weld is proud of the hole. Then 7018 a nut on, allow to cool briefly, then wrench out the stud.
Some days your accomplishments are great. Today my accomplishments were measured by 3/8 x 16 broken studs on the riser. I went with the 7018 again and welded on a nut. I actually prefer the nylon lock nuts with the nylon on the bottom as it melts nothing sticks under it. After welding on the nuts I heated the stud and part cherry red with a torch then cooled the stud with wd 40. You could see it go in after the temperature got to the point that it would not catch on fire. Used the vise grips in a back and forth action just enough pressure that it was close snapping. Both came loose. Hurrah. Then cleaned up the treads with a bottoming tap.. good to go.
Good job. After I weld the nut on I heat the outside of the casting to close to cherry and that often helps to remove welded stud. Simon C
Lovely pictures of your Thumb, how about a picture of the manifold showing the Turbo mounting face so if you want I can tell you the correct way to fit the manifold to the cylinder head.
Taking a guess here but is the same as in the photos with the top being the same orientation?
Upon a closer look i see this ITR manifold is garbage. The old one was nice and smooth . This is a second rate trash casting. Going to try and smooth up the the inside The slag left in this looks like it would come off down the road and destroy the turbo. SOB. The last photo is the old nice and smooth.
My little die grinder and long reach bit cleaned it right up. Still not as smooth as the original but not so much so that i will loose sleep over it.
Since their is so much talk about removing studs we used to have pretty good success with parrot beak channel locks. Holding pressure on channel locks and tapping end of stud with a hammer
Well it sildes right on easy and it 100% in alignment. This little die grinder ate that cast like it was nothing, as a matter of fact it was scary how fast it worked on high speed. I opened the lower side holes just a little to allow for my poorly centered studs and it did the trick. Very valuable tools this is. Original tolerance above. Opened up slighty above. Master of the universe. You can see all the grindings and casting slag, i burned out above the tool.
Mig is nice for smaller bolts. Stick typically has better penetration (hotter) at the start but can be difficult on a very small area.
Got it all back together and started back up. I went down to Cat and sat down with a salesman and looked over the information he had including the TMs and service manual. I could not find any information on which direction the manifold is supposed to go. Cat did update the small bolts on the outside mounting holes. Maybe 3/8s x 1". Guess how much they are each. $23.00 per bolt. I used 20 grade 8 bolts and made my own studs. I used lock washers on the outside mounting bolts and the lock tabs on the 4 inside bolts. I am not sure if the lock washer is a good idea or not. Cat uses the locking tabs and thats it. I also used galvanized nuts which dont seem to have as good or as strong of thread as the harder grade 8 nuts do. They seemed to stretch a little more. I am going to run it awhile and check the hardware for issues. I would imagine that you could spend close to $200.00 just for the Cat hardware. Hopefully I dont need to buy twice and cry twice.... On the warm up run no leaking was noticed. Online some guys say these nord lock washers are the best bet. I might go ahead and order some and swap them out. Bolt Depot - Nord-Lock® washers, Delta protekt® plated steel, 3/8" boltdepot.com
Nord-Locks don't come loose but can be hard to remove. They make an extreme Nord-Lock too that's even better. I don't know if they're good to use when heat is involved. Not sure about grade 8 bolts either. They tend to snap instead of deform.
Let us know in the future how it works out. Not sure grade 8 and studs would be my choice but then I have a Chevy 5.3 and it routinely breaks drivers front top and passengers back bottom OEM exhaust manifold bolts. That why I have the Doorman exhaust bolt bracket that bolts to the extra head holes handy.
I would not use galvanized anything in that location. Do yourself a favor and replace all with grade 8 The reason for grade 8 hardware is if they rust, most cases they can still be removed, they can be torqued higher and the exhaust heat will cause issues holding
I used high temp anti seize on all exhaust fixtures, the paste will burn, but will a fine coating. I used hardened flat washers, stainless fasteners , cat fasteners etc , pay me now or pay me later. Always thinking of the next guy that has to take it apart.
Screw that, I tried SS a few times over the years, a couple on Marine and they break faster than anything. The Nickel Anti Sieze, I slobber on, like someone else is paying for it. Have good luck with grade 5.
The correct way to mount the manifold on the 3204 is shown in the parts book, it's with the small exhaust hole to the fan, you do have a riser between the manifold and the turbo so it will possibly make little difference, how you had the manifolds in the picture together was the correct position.
My thoughts in this day of every one having a phone. A couple of pictures before you tear it down would sure make a lot of conversation unnecessary
As TC said. It might have been installed incorrectly previously. You can't tell anything about this manifold's orientation from the outside. But I agree take pictures before your fingers are too dirty to touch the phone.
I've had good success with a TIG welder. It requires good access, can't do it wedged up in a very bad place. Takes a bit of patience. Clean the broken end all you can. Might be 1/2" below flush. Precise very short arc. At first it'll be near impossible to get filler into the puddle. Be satisfied if you can only get a tiny dab of 1/16" filler. Repeat. As it comes up flush, it gets easier to focus arc & dab filler. Once flush, build a ball above flush. Drop a washer over the ball, then a nut. Weld through the hole in the nut to secure the nut to the ball. Find something to do for ten minutes, like starting the process on another broken bolt, let that one cool. If you don't mind smoke, a bit of oil might be helpful. When EVERYTHING is room temperature cool, use a flat open end wrench, turn it both directions very gently. Might turn it 200 times each direction before you detect a slight slip in the thread, you have won! Might still break it off before it loosens, but next round you will succeed.
Never put Spring Washers on a manifold location, never use Stainless Steel, never use Galv' coated anything, stick to 8.8 grade fasteners Graphite coated if possible, the 3204 has locking tabs list in the parts or just use top grade thick washers.
Nickel anti-seize is what I have put on them, but go a bit lower on the torque as per any never seize. Yes never use any spring lock washeers as they will break in time from the heat and then it is a loose connection. Thick hardened washers is the way to go. Simon C
Curious if studs are better than bolts on exhaust manifolds? Also is one less likely to put up a fight to remove if needed?
A lot of old engines used double ended studs. Might be 3/8 or 7/16 coarse thread in the block, then 3/4" wasn't threaded. Other end was fine thread shouldered downa size. Some had brass nuts. Logic was break off the smaller end, you could still get the manifold off, giving access to the protruding stud with vice grips, or welding a nut. Impatience has broken more manifold bolts than rust. Penetrating oil & a LOT of wiggling back & forth work much of the time. I've seen plenty of engines manufactured with stepped down studs, replaced with bolts. Many of these bolts weren't high grade even.
You will find that lots of companies used studs for a reason. The Underside of the thick washer to the face of the head is the stretch zone of the bolt. All of the stud that is within the head is not in the stretch loan. If there is not enough stretch zone from the cylinder head to the underside of the thick washer held in by the nut, the connection will break unless it is engineered with over size strength fasteners. A bolt with regular threads that goes into the cylinder head has very little thread sticking outside the head so very short stretch zone. That is why they break along with heat and fatigue. Simon C
CAT engines since the earliest days used stud, nut and washer clamping on manifolds, this would be in 2 size formats 3/8" and 1/2" UNC that always seemed to cope with the task, the problem with failed studs can really be blamed on poor care and service, bolts looking nearing their end of service should be replaced in timely fashion so no or little drilling out is needed.
Seen too many with half the stud gone and still being used . then they wonder why they broke. Simon C
On another subject; GM V8 gas engines are troublesome. Exhaust manifold gaskets don't last. I can't say specifically which engines, my experience is the 6.0. Every other year I have to replace each gasket. GM uses some treated bolt coppery in color, their torque specification is barely more than finger tight. If access were easy it'd take an hour to replace the gasket. In a van, the first hour is used removing enough components to find the engine. Siezed studs aren't a problem, getting a wrench on a manifold stud is superhuman! By designing frequent failure into the gasket, manifold bolts don't have time to freeze.
I replaced a cracked exhaust manifold on an old Chrysler industrial engine with no problems at all. Maybe I got lucky?
Ha, this newer stuff, with soon to be obsolete V-8 engines, have no room to do anything. My brother has an overhead creeper that I occasionally use but hate. To get at the exhaust manifold bolts, I have to take the tire off, take out the inner fender and I can see part of it. Between bending pushrods and collapsing AFM lifters, my new to me trucks manifolds have been off 5 times, in 7 months and it still had 3 freshly broken exhaust manifold bolts. Then my brother convinced me to stop screwing around and pay the 23 dollars a piece from GM. Hopefully, they stay in one pice. The nice thing is, unless it’s making noise, outta sight, it’s outta mind and you really can’t see them. Unless, like when I bought the Doorman clamp, after finding one of the broken bolt heads, on the shop floor.