Hello, My 22yo stepson is thinking about going to one of two heavy equipment schools and getting 'level 2' type certification, I'm not sure what that means and I know nothing about heavy equipment or construction industry. I do think it's to operate typical heavy equipment minus cranes. We're in upper Michigan and the closest union heavy equipment apprenticeship program is 150+ miles away and the cost for housing would be significant for him to attend until he lands a job and imho I'm not sure he has the patience for a multi year apprenticeship program IF he got accepted. One school that is closer that he could drive daily to for 6 weeks is in Escanaba Michigan and info about their program is at: https://ncheschool.com/ . He tells me the level 2 certification is about $16k. School is recognized by Michigan as a certified education program for whatever that means. The other school is in Sun Prairie Wisconsin and has been around since 1959 and seems much more impressive with much more equipment, crane and CDL A certification. This school's program is 8 weeks and will require lodging for about $1600. The program costs about $18k and said it has various industry training certifications. Information about this school is at: https://www.operator-school.com/ With the economy a mess maybe it's not the best time to get into the construction industry and take on some student loans but he needs a skill set that will allow him to have a career and some mobility to move to where the economy is or will do better. Any thoughts about the field, certification importance, certification to look for? Go union apprenticeship? I think deep down he's a blue collar guy and I'm just trying get some educated opinions before he signs up for something. Thank you for your time and thoughts.
Hi, I recommend an IUOE apprenticeship. I went through the apprenticeship program and benefited greatly from it. If you're in Michigan he'd be appling in Local 324. Just because their training site is 150 miles away does not mean that's where he'd be all the time. He'd just be there for training. Being an apprentice is hard work; you'll do a lot of crappy jobs and work your rear off, but in the long run it will make you a more experienced operator. That being said, you get out of it what you put into it. A plus to the apprenticeship program is he will not have any student loan debt. He would be getting paid to learn while on the job. Paying all that money for a school may teach you how to pull levers, but it doesn't guarantee a job. Honestly an 8 week course will give him just a taste of the industry. Bouncing between machines, especially cranes, in such a short timeframe will give him the bare basics, it will not make him an experienced operator. Working on the non union side after going to a school would give him experience at one company doing the same type of work. A union apprentice will get rotated around to several contractors during his apprenticeship. He'll get to gain experience in anything from heavy civil, road work, paving, cranes, and even pipeline. Afterwards he could pursue the path that suits him best. There are MANY different career paths as an Operating Engineer. Even with the economy at a standstill, construction in my area is booming. We have a TON of work going on right now and the work outlook for the next few years looks very good as well. As far as certifications, I get mine through our locals training center. Personally I have- Class A cdl, OSHA 30, MSHA, 40hr Hazwoper, rigging, signalman, forklift, first aid/AED, and NCCCO. Contractors, especially the bigger ones are requiring certs for doing any type of specialized work. I don't see that changing anytime soon. If he really wants to be an operator I'd really recommend pursuing cranes and getting a NCCCO cert. There's a lot of crane work throughout the country and they are saying there is a shortage of crane operators. It does take a special type of person to do it though. My advise would be have him call up the local and talk to the training coordinator and find out about the application process and see if it would be a good fit for him.
Why do you think he's a blue collar guy? That might be the most important question. Some people are better for certain jobs. Operating equipment can be heavy, dirty, noisy hard work with long hours and is not for everybody.
I've known him since he was in middle school, he's always been drawn to manual labor type jobs, construction helper, working in lumber mills, plowing snow, riding dirt bikes and mudding with big trucks, pulling cars out of the snow with tow ropes and using power equipment. People we know up here are loggers, truckers, work in paper mills, etc. Imho I don't think he's cut out for office work and the delicate office politics and language required. He enjoys doing hard work and dosen't mind outdoors but I think he knows long term he needs a trade that will give him decent pay long term and not beat up his body stacking lumber at a mill for 30, 40 years. I encouraged him to look into the service, he decided he doesn't have good enough fine motor skills to be a good welder. He came to me about these two schools for heavy equipment, I didn't push him into this area. I don't know what to further tell you. Thanks
For starters I would encourage him to get his OSHA 30, Competent person Trenching and Excavating, Confined Space and first aid/AED. All those certifications can be done online at his own time and not cost thousands of dollars. There are other certs that can be done online as well that pertain to the construction industry. Next I would get a Class A CDL. With the certs above and a CDL he is already worth a few more $$ walking in the door. Personally I think $16K for 3 weeks of training is highway robbery. We could OJT him for 3 weeks and he would know the same without any debt. We are not a union area so I have no experience with that route. The commercial/ heavy civil markets is where he should look if he wants to be an operator as the pay scale is much better than residential.
Local 324 seems like a great program but its 450+ miles away in the Detroit area. Technically we're across the river in Wisconsin from Iron Mountain Michigan. Is that still the best option? The IUOE locals (139, 420) in Wisconsin are both in the Milwaukee area about 250 miles away, should he look into those instead? Are most programs with IUOE equally good? I'm going to get him a more reliable used car for these programs but things are tight for us up here and lodging costs are a consideration unless he makes enough just to get by with starting out. Thanks
Sounds like operating equipment might be a good choice for him. 16K for 3 weeks of training is crazy.
I would guess a three week course would teach the average person how to check oil ,start machine ,move back and forth.
I went thru the IUOE Local 12 apprenticeship program and I am thankful that i did. However, beware of any union and it's political affiliation. I can remember as an apprentice going out on weekends and being forced to place political banners along roads and in front of peoples residences . At the time, I thought it was no big deal. I was out with union brothers doing the union thing so I could make the big bucks. That was all fine and dandy back then. I was only a sheep wanting to fit in with the "union" thing. But I'm a lot older and a little bit wiser and I am no longer willing to swallow their political agenda. I will never regret being an IUOE member as I will never ever cross a picket line. Its all good. The only thing I will have a problem with until the day I die is anyone, and I mean anyone...union brothers included dictating to me how I should vote. Not gonna happen brother. That said, the apprenticeship program is a great thing. I say go for it. But beware....be a man and don't let yourself get brainwashed into voting any other way than your heart/gut/mind tell you to.
School THEN A Union Apprenticeship would put him at the Upper choice lines for employment, The A CDL, Certs from online systems would show as a Positive to both school acceptance as well Union Apprenticeship as would already be showing diligent effort.
Has he thought about being a mechanic? I can give you some info on good programs if you’d like As far as the operator route goes has he thought about talking to companies before signing up for a “school”? I’d find out what the area companies want before dropping money on school
I don’t have a good opinion of the privately operated “ HE Operator” schools. The schools have figured out how to take advantage of the student loan system and milk it to their advantage, while leaving their graduates on the hook for large loan amounts. I would look first into your local Operating Engineers Apprenticeship program.
Good point. Our Cat dealer has a great "apprenticeship" program to train young ones who want to wrench with no student loans attached.
Financial Aid milking definitely seems to be the purpose of most of these private programs/schools. The public tech college I got my diesel tech degree in also had a operators program. Going a votech route would be a lot cheaper whatever he goes with
That’s the route I went. Two years (five semesters) was $5k, I paid my dealer $2000 total for five semesters of housing and they reimbursed me the tuition cost for working for them for 3 years and they also provided a decent starter set of tools as part of it. It was a good deal.
The schools here give you a certificate when your done the most useful thing it could do is start your camp fire I have been around a half dozen school trainees in the last 6 months and it should be illegal what they do to those kids because by the time the school is done with them they cant be taught anything. Our local here really is not that great it's pretty weak there are not that many union contractors here so I really not in the know of there apprenticeship If he is willing to work then he can work his into a job he will learn more in a month than at a school if your in union country then that's the way to go
IMHO schools are created for people who can't get a proper job and become teachers. Some written work methods I have seen are just dumb and at times dangerous but end up becoming an industry standard. With that being said if possible I suggest your young fella gets a job with a contractor starting as a labourer and moving up from there where he can learn and earn in the real world.
I highly recommend a career in the military or at least one enlistment. That helped me mature at an accelerated rate and set the stage for my career.
I'll leave this one alone.
LOL
I served in Vietnam, yes. Leave this one alone.
If you live in Wisconsin he should apply at 139. A Lot of the training sites have dorms onsite to stay in. I'm not sure if 139 does. Yes, all of the IUOE programs are equal. We even have an international site in Texas that is available to member at no cost. I have taken several classes taught by 139 instructors, and can say they are top notch. 139 is known nationwide for its GPS program. Several of their guys even work with Trimble with development and troubleshooting. Just because the training sites are far from you does not mean that's where he will be working. The dispatchers try to get you working closer to home. That is not a guarantee though, especially as an apprentice.
I started in the IUOE 302 in AK. I am no longer in the union and am not pro-union. Im not against them either. But being in the union in my early twenties allowed me to work around some guys that would blow your mind with how good they were on the equipment. It showed me "what good looks like". It let me know where the bar was set.
Correction... the 3 week school in escanaba Michigan is $4k the other school near sun prairie Wisconsin is for 8 weeks and $16k. Thank you for all your insights, I'm gonna sit down with him and talk about yourthoughts on this issue. It's good to know potentially he wouldn't have to attend only the union training facility and that some might have dorm options.
Veterans do get a better shot at the IUOE when they get out using the Boots to Hardhats program. Not sure I would enlist for that reason but it is a good program for those whom are already serving. That said I would go the IUOE route if there is any possibility at all. He will have no school travel expense except for the weeks he is in school, usually about 2 weeks to 4 weeks a year. Always was a week at a time but not sure now. Some areas you get paid your wage while in school out of a local wide apprentice fund, as long as you attended and got your paperwork signed off. I would start talking to every Operators Local in a 1500 mile radius. One needs to be in an area where a person can can get the job because of a labor shortage and get his foot in the door. Its all about how bad you want it and the gumption to go forward and do it. He can transfer to any local he wants after he becomes a journeyman. Wishing him the best of luck in whatever he does.
Like a couple of the Guys mentioned, your local Cat dealer has a program at Owens Community College called ThinkBig. The apprentices rotate between school and the Dealership in approximately 8-week blocks, get paid, get tools and uniforms, laptop and all the course material. It's heavily subsidized by Caterpillar Inc and the dealer. The Aprrentice has to put some skin in the game, but they can finish the program in about two years with very little out-of-pocket expense. The Dealer usually helps with locating housing while on-site at the community college.
I thought I saw head-shakes from some at the advice to enlist in the military. Yeah, I was in Vietnam and was actually medivaced back to the U.S., but I would have been much lesser a person had I not served. As to learning "a trade," I was infantry, military police, and aviation, and did retire from a part-time (weekend warrior) national guard job. Much of the value of serving in the military is the inner discipline that one usually acquires. But, each to his own. What works for one doesn't always work for the next.
I've managed highway & bridge construction projects for over 45 years for my employer, a county road department. The union contractors all employ Local 324 members. Some of the contracts thru MDOT have On The Job training programs. I believe there is a shortage of good experienced workers after the lost decade where most contractors shrunk by 30-50 percent. The union contractors work all over the UP and I would assume enter into Wisconsin. The LP contractors work all over the LP and some work also in IN and OH. So the idea he will work close to home won't happen. Some of the commutes these guys have is mind boggling to a guy who's commute is 2.3 miles one way for the last 45 years His other option is to start with a local contractor as a laborer. If he shows initiative and starts to anticipate what needs to be done next I think he will do fine. Especially if he leaves his phone in his vehicle. If he's interested in running a piece of equipment, he should ask the boss if he can "practice" at lunch time. If he can get a bit of experience and show some ability to learn it, the boss might let him fill in if the operator has to be off for the day. Oh and the 1st rule, is show up on time every day. Not late or some excuse why he can't make it today. Contractors, did i miss any anything ?
Raildudes Dad, That’s a well-thought recipe for success, you just scribed.
Every contributor to this forum has done similar things to get started because at one point In our lives we knew nothing about this industry most have similar pet peeves as well biggest is be on time that's 10 minutes early the other be willing to do what ever job is asked of you ( within obvious reason of course) if your not willing to put in the time on the shovel chasing a machine then you have realistic expectation of what an operator should be capable of and you will not have a respect for the ditch labor If your not willing to do the grunt work to learn and earn your way up then your not cut out for this line of work cause you wont be willing to do the hard work in a pinch witch makes you useless in my opinion
Thank you very much for all your input. I spoke to what sounded like an older gentleman at local 139 appreciate prorgram yesterday. He said the biggest thing he can do to get a foot up on the competition is to get his class A CDL to be a stronger candidate to potentially get accepted in a IUEO program and said to hold off until he gets accepted taking various online certifications like OSHA 30, he said contractors don't trust certifications unless it's done through a verifiable place like a union. He's signed up yesterday for a class a cdl class, he's very excited. I also have my class a cdl with all the endorsements and I never regret getting it though I don't drive anymore. I told him to go for all the endorsements as well. Additional question please... He wants to move eventually back to Tennessee. Are there certain states that don't like or hire union members? I thought some western and southern states don't like union workers and rarely hire them? 20 years ago I knew a ibew electrician from Chicago who moved out to Wyoming, following his family, short story is allegedly companies blacklisted him because he was union and could only get a job at home depot electrical department. Any reality to this with certain states? Thanks again.
In my experience here in AZ we are not a big union area the operators union is kinda a joke compared to the market and back in the day they were very much a political good old boys club my dad grandpa and cousins and a few family friends all kept there membership till the mid 80s early 90s so they could travel Now days I think there are like 8 major companies that have union contracts here and you can most times negotiate something better for yourself around here outside the local here. I dont know of anybody being blacklisted for being a union guy but most of them wont work a non union shop cause its against the rules. If you work union in this state it either a municipality job or your on the road all the time to make steady money being non union here you can get a job most anywhere and right now if you can show up its name your price terms. I know operators making 35 an hour with benefits plus a vehicle allowance I think scale is 28. I am paying guys that would still be apprentices making 20 to 21 bucks in union 25 and 26 bucks because that's the talent level they have. We are also a right to work state so you are responsible to yourself to get what you think you deserve and in my experience if your talent is where your mouth is you can get top tier pay
This has not been my experience. We are currently working for a very large GC (over $1B in annual revenue) with a strict safety department and all of our certifications have been through various online courses like eTrain, etc. This GC uses the same online classes to train their staff as well - OSHA 10, 30, competent person, etc.
The apprenticeship guys like to act like they are the only ones who can train anyone, and only a "union" cert is any good. Its job protectionship, and they like to talk it up as to how generals should only use union subs because they are trained better. OSHA 10 or 30 is the same taught from anyone, and the card is good no matter where he gets it from. I really dislike some of the union / non union nonsense, so I've been avoiding this thread, but what the heck- its the internet and I've got a opinion on this subject, so I'm laying it all out I've been union and non union. As far as union operators, and employees, here's my take: The top 15% are the best guys you can find anywhere, turn them loose with a 10 or 50 million dollar project and get out of their way. They are the very best and are great great guys, who know their stuff. The next 55% of them are putting out a good days work for a day of good wages and benefits. They are worth what you are paying for them, which is pretty high wages in most areas by the time you figure in the benefits package. They are the backbone of the union force. The bottom 30% are what give the union a bad name. They hate anyone that's not union (rats), they hate "the man" (the employer) because "the man" is always holding them down. They feel they are owed a job from "the man", and yet will look for every little rule about start hours- show up pay- notify 24 hours before hand for OT or can refuse, etc. etc, to get out of work. Some of them must have dirty pictures of the BA with their aunt is the only reason they have a job. They live for filing a grievance with the steward. They make what can be a great thing, into a very bad thing. So really the numbers of good to bad employees in the union- is no different than the population at large, because after all- humans are humans. Its just that if you're the employer, you can fire the non union worthless ones, easier than you can get rid of the worthless ones that are union. You can get rid of the useless union ones too- its just a little more difficult game instead of "here's your last check". As far as the apprenticeship program- Most of the really good operators I worked with in the union, didn't come from the apprenticeship program. They learned their skill non union, and were hired into a union company when in their 30-40's and were taken in because they really know what they were doing. A couple months at the IUOE training center or 16 weeks at a school- neither one makes someone competent. The union work is going to mean a lot of traveling jobs, and a lot of time between jobs laid off- until he has enough experience and a steady reputation with a couple good union contractors who are calling him back for all their jobs. Its a long road, but the benefits and pay are worth it if he can stick it out. I get applications and phone calls from kids just graduated from operator school, who've been shown the ads on "Jobs Indeed" for crane operators on a wind farm project making $42/ hr. Of course they think some company is going to turn them loose with a 4 million dollar crane after 16 weeks of school . I give them the bad news that they are going to be running a carry deck on shut down turn arounds, or flying rebar with a 30 ton RT for a concrete company for 5 years. Maybe hanging signs with a sign truck. Running a telehandler. Whatever it takes to get seat time and experience. In the union they end up running a telehandler or being a oiler on a larger crane,running a loader at a quarry or skidloader, or hauling counterweights in a semi truck, to learn what the job entails. Its all about getting time in the seat on the job. I tell the applicants the real news, and how to go out and get a real job to get some experience, not to hold out for the $42/ hr running a lattice crawler with 450' of stick in on a wind farm. They need to learn the construction trade as a whole. I personally know 2 guys who did attend the quickie operator school, and stuck through the traveling jobs, and have made a living running cranes. There are a lot of students that have wasted the $$. They won't travel and/or won't take a "lesser" job just to get the experience they need. Whichever way he goes, he'll learn something. Maybe that he likes running iron, maybe not. But there is always a need for good guys who know their craft. I wouldn't get too hung up over starting out union or non union either. If he gets good at what he does, the union option is always there.
IUOE apprenticeship all the way best wages best insurance best retirement!!!