I have a komatsu loader that needed a repack of the dump cylinder. I dropped it off to central hydraulic with the repair kit. They quoted me about 2-5 hours of labor. They call me back today and tell me they had to heat and cool it multiple times to get the cap off and ended up stripping the threads on bot the cap and the cylinder. They tell me now its going to be $1700 to fix it, or I can pickup my broken cylinder for $450! I guess my question is, is that common practice in heavy equipment repairs? I know in automotive repair if you strip-out a bolt you take responsibility and fix it and apologize for it taking longer than expected. You don't give them back a broken car and charge the customer for breaking it.
I would have expected a call about the difficulty removing the cap and what the consequences of continuing to remove may be. I would have also hoped this is not the first time they experienced this. So, I would not pay as I would have had an expectation of repair as part of deal and they if they are unable to do so then there sure be no charge. Take my advice for what is worth, not much.
If you have them fix it will the total cost be $2150.00 ?
As an absolute minimum I'd have also expected a phone call or other communication to advise the difficulty they were having getting the cap off, basically pointing out what might happen if things went pear-shaped and asking if you wanted them to go ahead.
In my experience, nine out of ten hydraulic shops are either crooks, or incompetent, or BOTH. Get them to send you a written report/quote at this point. Get it in writing! Find a used cylinder to get your loader going and then find a cheap lawyer or file suit yourself, be sure to keep all paperwork and write down notes on any conversations over the phone or in person. You won't get anywhere but if it was me I would do my best to make their lives miserable for as long as possible.
Yair . . . . klipsch21 Bull$hite you do! I don't agree with that attitude at all. The customer can't assume his problems become the responsibility of the repairer. In the case of the ram though the shop messed up big time. As others have mentioned work should have stopped until the problem and financial implications were discussed. Cheers.
If it were mine I would drive over and take a close look at it. Many times these shops put people on jobs that they are unfamiliar with and don't see a set screw or a locking collar because of paint or dirt. The only way it comes off is by brute force. Take a close look at it and see if there is evidence of the start of the thread spalling. Then look at the mating part and see if there is evidence of the fastener or whatever that may have caused the problem. Even if the problem were caught after the fact the evidence still exists of the cause.
:exactly I can understand fully that due to rust and age it may not have been possible to unscrew the parts without damage BUT any shop that is in the business to do this kind of repair should be able to tell when things are not going as expected and stop all work until the customer is called in to discuss how to proceed with full disclosure on what the worst case scenario might be and all parties would have to sign off on it. I personally had a problem with a Heil truck hoist cylinder a couple years back. Not sure how many have dealt with them but there is a large plug in the bottom that has to come out to replace an oring that seals it. Problem is the plug is held in place with a large snap ring and there is maybe a 2 inch notch in the groove through which you can work to compress the snap ring into the plug so you can then pull it out. I'm sure it looked good on paper to who ever designed it. Well at least two related problems can happen. First as the first stage of the cylinder comes down it can bump the plug on the bottom. This ,over time, hammers the snap ring against the side of the grooves, one in cylinder and one in the plug. This pushes up a burr on both of them which makes the plug hard to get out with the snap ring compressed. Second problem is in some cases as this one the snap ring will tend to break usually near the ends where the holes are, not good! Can't compress the snap ring so the plug won't come out. So what I did is, what this shop should have done, I went to "my customer" who for me was my boss. I showed him the problem and suggested a possible solution. This was to have shop's welder who is better with the hot wrench than I will ever be to attempt to cut away at the plug a little at a time to be able to then remove the snap ring bit by bit then be able to get the now junk plug out so a new one with new oring could be installed. Problem was this plug is about 3 or 4 inches up in the bottom of cylinder and there was a 50/50 chance the cylinder itself maybe damaged during the cutting. Now that everyone involved knew what the situation was we, the shop's welder and myself were free to proceed. If we had just jumped in with out talking it over with boss(customer) and things went bad it would have been all on us. Log story short, Bill was able to surgically remove enough of the plug for me to work on the broken snap ring and dealer actually had a good used plug we got for next to nothing and truck was back to work and the Bulldog stopped marking his spot all over the quarry!
Yep, as has been promoted here by TC, and maybe Scrub and a few others, judicious application of a BFH around and around until the threads loosen up is often far superior to the heat and beat method. Anytime I run into an unforseen problem when doing a customer repair, I stop immediately and make the call, "We might ruin this getting it apart, do you want us to proceed, or come look at it or take it elsewhere?" By the way, I guess I never ran into the auto shop you deal with, the ones I know of usually will break something and unless it's greivously obvious they screwed up, will charge the customer to fix it.
I know when I was working on cars our shop rate would have been quadrupled if I had to walk in and call someone everytime you struggled with a getting something apart or had to put a torch on it repair junk for customers every day for as cheap as possible and your in house shop work will seem like a walk in the park. So if they had called and said that it didn't screw right off without any effort and come pay for the labor in and take your cyl home how would you feel?
I have dealt with only two hydraulic shops. One was a bunch of incompetent idiots that ruined the pin holes in my glands and then used pipe wrenches to chew up the glands enough to bring tears to my eyes. The other shop was a crook. Gives me a price over the phone to make a new cylinder rod and then doubled the price when I picked it up at his shop. Of course he cut the eye off my old rod and welded it on the new one. So I was screwed. Always get the price in writing. First time shame on you, second time shame on me !
What model of Komatsu loader are you talking about? Those are low pressure systems and nothing is put together like an excavator. There are times on some machines that use a screw on packing gland where set screws are used to keep the gland from turning loose. If the wrench doesn't see or know about them a mess is made. I've also seen plenty of screw cap cylinders that had been together for a real long time with plenty of rust where the threads grabbed when being taken off and it made about as bad a mess as when a set screw was left in place. The deal is that it takes what it takes and the customer is generally always on the hook for it. There are no book times and quotes are written best case with a warning that special problems will cost more. Did you read the repair order completely before signing it?
Any competent repair shop will call the customer if they run into a major problem that could end up costing the customer considerably more money. Having said that I was told it's about $500 labor to change a wheel motor on my skid steer. Went to pick it up and the labor was $1300! They said they had some kind of problem getting the sprocket off or something. A little bit more isn't bad but almost 3 times the cost, they should at least call you. My drive chain was also loose and instead of using an impact driver to remove the screws holding the heater in place, they ground them off! I put in tight screws so they wouldn't vibrate loose. The heater was attached to a front panel and was in the way of the chain adjuster. Now instead of just taking the screws out, I have to remove the whole panel. I will not go back to that shop. As for the OP, they should be finding you a new cylinder or fixing your cylinder on their dime. I don't understand the heating AND cooling? Were they heating the cap up red hot and throwing water on it? No wonder they stripped it.
I'm with John and Jonas, they MIGHT have gotten it apart without damage, but unless you can show that they missed a setscrew etc. then they're not going to cover one cent. The problem with legal remedies is in the law world there is nothing wrong with incompetence OR poor customer service (not calling), outright fraud is the only way a lawyer gets in trouble so you're not going to have much luck with this one.
It may be hard to believe, but a lot of cylinders just don't want come apart and of those very few never come apart. Threaded head cylinders present their own problems. The finer the thread (minimal thread clearance and more surface area), duration between overhaul (over 10 years), corrosive environment (water glycol oil, wood mulch, salt), and the last guy who overhauled it (set screws as mentioned, dirt in fine threads, no anti seize, loctite!!!), which is probably the biggest potential for problems. ----- How could you get mad at someone for using a pipe wrench on a case backhoe cylinder? If the wrench dug in that deep, that is how much torque was needed to remove the head. That kind of power can't be safely transmitted by a pin wrench. ----- As for Hydraulic shops being crooks.... I wouldn't say 9/10. ... 50%... alright. Of course, I'm not in the area
One thing that surprises me is that this is a Komatsu cylinder.. now I know you can't make blanket statements but in my experience I can honestly say I have NEVER had any issues disassembling a Japanese hydraulic cylinder. They just design them better in almost all cases for durability and service than the US equivalents, at least up until some of the engineers were replaced I think. Now I see well thought out designs and more rugged and serviceable cylinders on most makes. The old backhoes with internal fine threads were horrendous, but obviously cheap to manufacture.
Yes it can. A good quality gland wrench with the pins fully engaged will apply enough force. Both of the cylinders that they chewed on had like new pin holes when we took them to be repaired. I guess they never heard about peening a cylinder when it is a difficult one. In my world pipe wrenches are never used on hydraulic cylinder glands. The cylinder rods are only 1&3/4 inches. Mere babies in the world of construction equipment hydraulic cylinders.
Right, you should tell that to the people who have cylinder heads bored out of the tubes
I don't question you. I agree on many more cylinders damaged by leaving missed set screws in than being sealed by time. But I don't think it is correct saying just about all shops are crooked..... atleast without seeing his cylinder. No need to get the original poster excited. What he should do is take pictures of the cylinder and post them here for review.
I know I'm out in left field thinking here, but first off I've done so many cylinders over the years both by myself and shops to do them for me, I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, I wasn't there to see and hear anything, same goes for everyone else pitching ideas on this subject. But here's how I look at it, first off it was broken when taken in to get fixed, unless you took a perfectly functioning and non leaking cylinder in for a repair for some unknown reason, basically it needed a repair of some sort, by dropping it off and telling them to fix it, you agreed to them taking it apart, I'm just guessing but from what has been stated, you have not done this cylinder yourself or have owned it since new [just an assumption] and by approving the repair, I'm thinking they'd do about the same thing I would do or have done many times, try to take it apart to see what was needed to repair it. Now after having done enough of these repairs myself, I can see how and know how things don't go as expected, or once apart, threads, bolt holes, bores, nuts and so forth are not reusable and need to be replaced. Once apart they called, I'm not thinking they'd done anything wrong up to now, and called when I'd expect a call with options as to what I could do, now if the shop has a history of abuse and scamming customers, then you took it at your own risk, if you never checked out their reputation beforehand, I'm thinking that's your fault from lack of homework on you end, if they are a good shop things do go wrong, and parts do go bad, have bad threads and that list could be very long, not seeing where its their fault your parts are junk no different than if it were my cylinder, which is exactly how one large cylinder went for me this spring, the one I did this last week went off without a hitch, either way I don't blame my chosen fix it shop, its the chance I take every time I take a used part in for repair, no matter the part no matter where I take it to be fixed or if I do it myself. The question I have is this, what's you plan B when you dropped it off, there's always a chance your parts are bad or shot beyond repair or can't be taken apart at all without damaging it beyond repair, its how my life works anyhow, maybe not everyone's but I can't be the only one that this happens to regularly. If I were you first off I'd go look for myself what it looks like, have them explain what happened and show you your parts, keep a cool head, most business's can show you what was done and how it went down so to speak, I'd hear them out, tell them you'd like to think about it, go home, form a plan B, make some calls and figure out options and above all, I'm not sure I'd burn a bridge behind me, nor in front of me either, you just may have to hire them to finish what they started, your options my be limited at this point. From what I've read, I'd pay the bill no matter what thus far, if you can find someone to finish it up cheaper or find good used parts go that route, next time around check them out beforehand before taking anything in for a repair, if they are descent shop that does good work, I'd never blame them for anything that went wrong, even if it might have been their fault, people do make mistakes, accidents do happen and I don't expect anyone to do exploratory work for free on my behalf, next time around I might come out so much cheaper by them attempting to fix something for me, rather than hunt up used or buying new. For what its worth I've been in your shoes many times, upset far greater than you are now, but was given some advice years ago by a good friend of mine, he told me to never tick off anyone who's willing to attempt to fix my junk, even if things don't go as hoped, its a chance you take every day, but without those willing to try, your options get very limited. Just a suggestion, do as you wish.
I'm curious how a cylinder can be considered "junk" because it needs new seals? When they ran into problems, they should have called, not after they damaged it beyond repair. If he would have told them to try and get it loose after they told him there was a problem, then they are off the hook, not before. Perhaps if he had been told there was a problem, he could have posted on here and got some better idea's to get it apart like pounding on it with a hammer to loosen the threads. Reminds me of mechanic, who ran the service department for a motorcycle dealer, that took his motorhome into a rad shop to get a new rad and they said they could repair it and charged him $600 to fix it and take it out and put back in. He didn't make it 100 miles before it started leaking again. He nursed it along for his trip and came back for a new rad. They charged him another $1100 and didn't give him any credit at all for the rad they said they could repair. The rad shop used to have an excellent reputation and he had used them several times over the years. Now the son's of the original owner were running it and the quality and service went downhill so much, the shop ended up going bankrupt. He wasn't expecting a full credit but figured they could give him a break on the labour and knock a couple hundred bucks off since he originally wanted a new rad but they said they could fix his old one.
It is NOT common at the Dealership!