I was wondering if any of our members are involved in hydrofracking? My town is discussing regulation and I'd like to learn more about it. I've read a lot of pros and cons on the internet, but I'd like to hear from those who have first hand experience. Do you work with a company that does hydrofracking or live in an area where it's taking place? Have your experiences been good or bad? Thanks!
This has become such a hot issue in our area and I too find it hard to weed through the propaganda spewed by both sides, I don't know where to turn to get a truthful discussion on the topic. I anyone has any first hand experiences with this I too would appreciate your observations so I can attempt to gain a further understanding of its effects on the environment and our drinking water.
Scientists and leaked documents have shown that, since the 1980s, EPA investigations into the oil and gas industry's environmental impact—including the ongoing one into fracking's potential impact on drinking water—and associated reports had been narrowed in scope and/or had negative findings removed due to industry and government pressure.
It really depends on the regulations in place. In most parts of Wyoming and North Dakota the regs are very lax. They can use a mixture of diesel and water for the fraking fluid. In Colorado where its much "greener" there are tough regs so they use a biodegradable high dollar fluid. Biodegradable products vary from one to the other, to be bio it needs to be able to degrade within 60 days at 50% (if my memory serves me right). Haliburton has a bio product that degrades at 80% in 90 days and is edible at all stages. Of course it all comes down to the almighty dollar, if the high dollar fraK fluid is needed due to regulations and the cost is too high for the oil/gas companies then of course they will look for greener (cheaper) pastures.
This is a prime example of propaganda. Nothing tangible has been said and nothing has been referenced. Yet, with the use of a couple of keywords and phrases: industry, environmental impact, scientists, leaked documents .....the reader gets a negative feeling about the topic, yet they are just as uninformed as they were before they read it.
All I can say is you better like lots and lots of water trucks, 3/4 ton 4x4's with mud tires and stacks, meth head tweakers, and to not be able to go to a restaurant with your family to have a nice respectable meal and not hear some southern drawlin' gashole drop the F bomb all the time. Now I mean no disrespect to the many reputable gas industry workers but you have some knuckle dragging Neanderthal coworkers that have no respect for local people and their lives they live. I also travel for my job, I reside in a camper 9-10 months a year, we however are more or less required to be respectful, courteous, and just plain good human beings when out to dinner or anywhere. The locals all know who we work for and if there is a problem our superiors will NOT tolerate it, nor should they. I have seen first hand just over the ny/pa border the gas boom has done, yes they rebuild roads and get the gas, but at what cost.
I live in the middle of the gas boom now I cann't give you first hand knowledge on the fracking prosses but I do have a few friends that do work for some of the companies that either doing the fracking or supporting the frackers with water. I'll have to make a few calls and see what I can find out. Now for the rud workers it does not take to many bad apples to make every one look bad. I know a guy that works for haliburton and the rule is, First complaint from some of the locals you get a verbal warning, second complaint a writen warning and time off, theird time and your gone. Well drillers have enought bad press to overcome they do not need any help from some loud mouth trouble makers. It's even more sever if you drive any of there trucks. You get caught speeding or breaking any traffic laws and your done. Range ressources has there own little police force that drives aroud where there drilling and makes sure everyone is on the up and up. Some of the employees came them range cops. If you know for sure bigshow that they are meath heads report them to what ever company there from. On drug test and they hit the bricks, these companies donn't put up with any of that crap. You folks who have not seen what a gas drilling boom does for the local economy it is immpressive. Small local stores and mom and pop dinners deffinetly get a boost. Plus I love to see farmers that have worked hard all there lives just to get by and the next day have more money then they know how to spend. I could type for hours about farmers with wornout equipment barely making it the next year have a whole new fleet of john deere tracktors and corn and hay tools.
Now that you mentioned the local economies, you may see shiny new things but what about the many older folks that are on a fixed income and rent. They are basically forced out by greedy land lords in hopes of sucking up some of the gas induced influx of the economy. Oil field workers can pay these higher rent costs, can your grandparents or parents? Now onto the motel and hotel scene, have you seen the prices of a room, what once was a $39.99 single room is now typically $69.99 or more. Also the "prostitution rings" that are frequently around the shadier of motels, they have made the local news. Now I am not saying this is all infact due to the gas boom but there are many more D.W.I.'s, drug related charges, bar fights, prostitution rings since the "boom". However they have done some good, they have given the towns and counties better roads, they do enforce the trucks, obviously supply our gas addictions, I am not saying this boom is horrible, however don't be blinded by the high dollar and shiny new toys, many of those people will **** away that money instead of spending it wisely and be once again broke, but with much more expensive toys to keep paying for. As far as meth, we have NEVER heard of meth around here until the boom, and you say to turn them in, I'm not a school yard snitch, I'm just pointing out what I see and observe. Until next time, I got more important stuff to do.
One other quick thought, many local contractors can't keep employees due to the newfound competition. They simply can't afford to pay what oilfield work does and they lose valuable help and there is absolutely nothing they can do to help it. I'm wrong, they could work more efficiently and jack up their prices to offset the raises, and hope customers are ignorant enough to pay overly inflated prices. As for the guys that do get hired, they are now making more than they ever have and they want to go out and finance/buy everything under the sun. Now they got big payments to go with these big paychecks, that's great until the oil contractors move out of the area and leave these guys behind with no jobs to go to, no jobs to go BACK to and big payments to make. I've seen it happen to some guys and it sucks. Now I'm done.
Hi Steve, You seem to be good at starting things (like this forum). Everything mentioned so far is good information and we are experiencing the same things here in Australia more or less because we too have an underground gas boom happening. What we need is some accurate, first hand stories of the actual fracking process and it's effects. From what I understand, a liquid is forced underground under high pressure to bust the rock and coal seams up to speed up the process and get more gas. Trouble is that you are also busting up the natural (stable) containment of underground water and allowing gas and the fracking stuff into the water supply. Can someone talk to that please? We have seen TV of places in our own state where bores that usually supply water for cattle have gas coming out of them that you can light with a match ! Cheers. Maurie.
I don't know what anything bigshow is talking about has to do with this topic. And to me it sounds like he has a ax to grind. I know a lot of people in the oil field and I haven't seen what hes talking about. Like Buck said if its a reputable company drugs are NOT tolerated. I have only over heard conversation about fracking but it sounded to me like they where mostly using salt water.
I live and work in the gas boom, And have met some of the most intelligent people out of this, unlike what, big show is claiming. The biggest change I have seen first hand is the amount of traffic, and yes seeing local business booming. I have worked on a drilling site where a dairy farmers family has scraped by since the land was settled about 150 years ago, was asked what he will do with his money he replied, try farming with money. As far as the 4x4 trucks with mud tires and stacks, that is just you're local rednecks. Drugs and meth would be here if there was no gas companys present, but it is easier to tag it to gas company.
My apologies for seeming so hateful and aggressive towards the gas industry and making this seem like a craigslist rants and raves ad, but what I am saying has everything to do with the O.P. The man wanted to know the pros and cons of hydrofracking and those are some that I have first hand personally seen. As for the overall safety, like many have said there is a lot of propaganda and no one can seem to give a straight answer, greenies hate it, gassers love it, all depends on which side of the fence you're on and how much your pockets have been lined. I personally can say I live in the area and have witnessed first hand the boom, it'll come and go and then what will be left behind? Take an educated look at the BIG picture and not just the money, water is the key to life, and I have been to town meetings where some farmer brought in his personal water after the drilling and asked the man from the gas company preaching about how safe fracing is to drink that water and he wouldn't. I haven't been wronged in any way by big gas and please don't misconstrue me as some gas hating greenie, I have worked construction my whole life and do know people involved in the gas field and they are not all bad people. Just be an informed citizen, go to meetings, talk to everyone, read the newspaper, watch the news and make your own decision, just remember, Hitler had a nation of people believing that the Jewish people were the cause of all of their problems, what I mean is, don't believe everything you hear, just whole heartedly think about everything involved from the roads, to the land, the towns, the economy, the families. Do the positives outweigh the negatives?
I got really bored last month and watched Gasland on netflix. I was sure it going to be a bunch of bleeding heart hippies that couldn't mind they're own business. It was one kinda weird guy interviewing people who were having issues after fracing had been done on their land. Basically there were 3 issues, subsurface water contamination, nasty stuff being vented from production wells, and the fact nobody knows what's being put in the ground. The fracing solutions' contents are deemed proprietary and they are not required to disclose them to any regulatory agencies. I used to support fracing, but i'm not a big fan of them being able to put whatever the hell they want in the ground. Before i watched it, I figured all the bad stuff was just hippies being hippies and the news networks sure didn't help my opinion with some of the people they interviewed.
I'm well aware of the publications that are available on the topic and each one has their own agenda, the gas companies think it's the greatest thing, the tree huggers claim it will destroy the earth. I figure the truth lies somewhere in between. That's why I'd like to hear from people who are involved in the industry or have fracking actually occurring in their community. I have a friend in Pa. who has a gas well on his property but it isn't fracked. He does however pay close attention to what goes on around him and told me that today, a gas company will test water wells within a 5 mile radius of a prospective gas well. What they are finding is these contaminated wells have been contaminated prior to any drilling
I've heard alot about water contamination and one thing I don't understand is if there drilling down 3000 plus feet and the water table is only at best 600 feet deep. I'm not a geologist i make my money throwing dirt not stairing at it. I just don't know how you get any frac water in the water table when there's a 2400 foot barier.:beatsme
That's a good point although I know absolutely nothing about hydrofracking.:cool2 It would make sense if the well was cased down to the point of fracking, then the water wouldn't be able to escape at the higher elevation.:beatsme
buckfever, It is answers to questions like yours that Steve (and I) is (I think) trying to find from people that are up close and personal with the practices. Maybe they are bound by some sort of secrecy agreement because I don't see a rush of them giving reassuring educational explanations here. With what you have raised, I think that underground water can be a lot deeper than 600ft but in any case, the gas has to come up the drill hole through the levels where the underground water is. What we need is someone who knows what they are talking about to come on and tell us that they use bore casing all the way down to the coal seam that the gas comes from and that it is safely sealed at the bottom. Steve, you would have to doubt how good the testing is when it's done by the gas drillers for the gas drillers. "Those water bores sure were contaminated before we started so we just went ahead and contaminated them some more..........no harm done." I just remembered that one of the issues here is the little dams that they build near the drill hole to contain the fracking liquid and contaminated water that comes up out of the hole. How well sealed are they? What happens to the contents later and/or in floods or heavy rain? Another problem I have heard about is that if you drill in an artesian area (where the water comes to the surface under pressure by itself) and you are going to get coal seam gas, the water is a nuisance and it just gets wasted. In Australia we have "the great artesian basin" and there has been a program carried out over many years to find and cap unused water bores to stop wasting the water. I don't have the figures right at hand as to it's size but it is enormous and our worry is that if there is an accident for example, you can't just contaminate it a little bit. (same as you can't get your girlfriend a little bit pregnant)
Playing devils advocate, I wouldn't drink something from someone I didn't know either, that was presented to me at a town meeting, no matter what they said it was or where it came from.:cool2
Particularly if you thought they didn't like you very much!
i think that what you seeing in this statement is probably very true. the typical aquifer in very shallow compared to the typical pool of hydro-carbons. they have been hydraulically fracturing wells for a long time, the difference being that years ago before the advanced horizontal drilling technology the frac in a vertical well would be a limited to vertical length in the pay zone. could be 10' to whatever depth the pay zone might be. the horizontal drilling will turn and follow that same pay zone for several thousand feet, consequently a number of fracs are necessary to take advantage of that pay zone. this means that considerably more fluids will be injected to fracture the formation throughout the pay-zone. since 98 to 99.5% of the frac fluids are comprised of water and sand, in the old days diesel was common but the advent of new additives it was replaced with water (much cheaper too) . the chemical additives that are used in remaining .5 to 2% of hydraulic frac fluids, some of the more common are listed below as to what they are and what they do and some other common uses. Diluted Acid (15%) Hydrochloric acid or muriatic acid Help dissolve minerals and initiate cracks in the rock Swimming pool chemical and cleaner Biocide Glutaraldehyde Eliminates bacteria in the water that produce corrosive byproducts Disinfectant; sterilize medical and dental equipment Breaker Ammonium persulfate Allows a delayed break down of the gel polymer chains Bleaching agent in detergent and hair cosmetics, manufacture of household plastics Corrosion Inhibitor N,n-dimethyl formamide Prevents the corrosion of the pipe Used in pharmaceuticals, acrylic fibers, plastics Crosslinker Borate salts Maintains fluid viscosity as temperature increases Laundry detergents, hand soaps, and cosmetics Friction Reducer Polyacrylamide Mineral oil Minimizes friction between the fluid and the pipe Water treatment, soil conditioner make-up remover, laxatives, and candy Gel Guar gum or hydroxyethyl cellulose Thickens the water in order to suspend the sand Cosmetics, toothpaste, sauces, baked goods, ice cream Iron Control Citric acid Prevents precipitation of metal oxides Food additive, flavoring in food and beverages; Lemon Juice ~7% Citric Acid KCI Potassium chloride Creates a brine carrier fluid Low sodium table salt substitute Oxygen Scavenger Ammonium bisulfite Removes oxygen from the water to protect the pipe from corrosion Cosmetics, food and beverage processing, water treatment pH Adjusting Agent Sodium or potassium carbonate Maintains the effectiveness of other components, such as crosslinkers Washing soda, detergents, soap, water softener, glass and ceramics Proppant Silica, quartz sand Allows the fractures to remain open so the gas can escape Drinking water filtration, play sand, concrete, brick mortar Scale Inhibitor Ethylene glycol Prevents scale deposits in the pipe Automotive antifreeze, household cleansers, and deicing agent Surfactant Isopropanol Used to increase the viscosity of the fracture fluid Glass cleaner, antiperspirant, and hair color as you can see there are chemicals of concern here and care must be taken during the drilling to protect and seal off potential aquifers. care also needs to be taken at the surface during drilling and completions. surface spills and sloppy down hole work while drilling (think BP) can be major contributors to the overall perception of how we are contaminating the ground water. keep in mind that since up to 3 million gallons of water can be used in a typical frac and only a maximum of 2% (typical is 1/2% to 3/4%) of that is additives, not very much in the overall scheme of things and the fact that all this is being done 4000'+ below any aquifers, one would think the risk to be very slight. some of this info has been taken from the internet, however my background includes the better part of 15 years in the oil patch and the last 15 in the environmental business world wide. yes i am a believer in drill baby drill!
Thanks for your post Big Iron
Yes. Thank you Big Iron. As you say, "think BP". The problem is :- How do you trust companies?
Although I'm not cerrtain, I'd have to believe the gas companies would hire independant and certified water testing agencies. In today's age of documentation, the scandal that would be created by forging results would slam dunk the gas industry out of business.
Thanks Steve, this is a really good question. We are not seeing the fracing here but the frac sand mining is going crazy here. It is kinda the same thing - according to some the world is going to end digging the sand up.
Not first hand but I have heard from a reliable contractor they had to use treated water for fracking in ND and it slowed down the process because the treatment plants could not supply enough
I'm not familar with the artesian wells your talking about but I do know that around here we are not drilling in coal seams. There drilling in deep shale deposits. I would like to hear more about how this water is just coming from the ground because it's naturaly under pressure. As for the water table being only 600' I can allmost guarantee this is the deepest you will find water. This is from a few old school water well drillers that have been drilling wells for a long time.
Hi buckfever and all, Thanks for making me look up something I should know more about. Doing links and stuff is beyond me but I went to Wikipedia off Google (where there is lots more) when I searched "Great Artesian Basin". According to Wikipedia, it covers 661,000 square miles and is 9800 feet deep in places. It is estimated to contain 15,600 cubic miles of water. At the bottom of the Wikipedia page there is a heading called "Potential depletion and pollution due to coal seam gas extraction" which I recommend everyone who is interested to read. The ABC is the "Australian Broadcasting Commission" , our national, government funded, free to air radio and TV organisation. "Four Corners" is their long running, weekly current affairs program that is highly respected and credited for uncovering or making public many controversial issues over the years. I haven't checked the link to the show yet but will asap. But just from the text, you will see why we have reason to worry!
Wikipedia isn't the most credible source of information. I wouldn't rely on them solely.
I have made and repaired pressure transducers that mount in a Weco fitting on the pipes that pump the slurry into wells. These transducers are made out of Inconnell x750 specifically to resist corrosion of the metal, well the come back at times pretty eaten up. My best guess would be if these chemicals are eating metals they probably are not too good in large volumes in the ground and water.
Sure. Google it yourself and read the Government websites.
I live in South Arkansas and I know some of the people in the northern part of my state who have been through all this. They welcomed the gas companies and all the "economic boom" stories they were told. The roads up there are trashed now from all the trucks. The water supply is bad. They now have earthquakes too. I cant say whether the gas drilling caused all the problems, but I wouldnt want it in my area.
Allot of misinformation here. I have three wells on my property here in Northeastern PA. Rural farm land, all of which were hydro fracked. If any of you want facts instead of here say B.S, I can provide them. I like the royality checks i get each month. They are well worth the trouble of added trafiic and poor roads. The Gas Companies fixed more roads in 2 years much better than the State Pa. ever did in 50 years. Tremendous boom for a local economy that was on the brink of total callapse. It looked like a ghost town around here just prior to the drilling.People now have new jobs and money from royaltiies and life is better than anyone could of dreamed. I hope none of you like them so they stay here a long long time. Great people by the way. Drill baby , DRILL.................