I have an older Trojan loader, works pretty good, but the 453 DD started to smoke and engine quit very quick, and now does not roll. So, what to do, well I have an old r model Mack....... thinking about a repower, from a 453 to a Mack , has anyone done this ? Or is it a bad idea ?
We would need a whole lot more information to form an opinion, but given the lack of more info, diesel engines that "works pretty good" rarely just "quit suddenly" because they "blew up". Worn out diesel engines will run a long time, over time use more oil and smoke more until eventually they don't have enough compression to even run, but that doesn't happen suddenly. What does happen suddenly is problems related to low/no oil pressure or sudden overheating from lack of engine cooling. Aside from this, with the little info you offered, suddenly started smoking and quit running, sounds more like a fuel or fuel delivery problem.
Define roll. Bob
Roll .. it will not turn over, seized. Although I have not even looked into it yet. It seemed like it ran out of fuel, so I put some in it, primed it , it started but blue smoke for 30 seconds and then it quit, now it does not turn over. The engine was good before this happened, started easy and ran on 4 cylinders nice with 0 oil consumption.
Oh yes , oil was coming out the drain pipes after it quit,
I assume you are referring to the air-box drains. You may have dropped part of a liner, caused by one or more liners breaking through the ports and the lower portion dropping down. On a 53, like a 92, the upper part is wet, so if the coolant is still ok, then the part above the ports is likely still intact. If it did drop part of a liner and it jammed between the rod, crank, or any part of the block, there may be block damage. If its not viable, you may try to find another engine. Old Oliver farm tractors (1900 and 1950) used the 453 and some old farm equipment wreckers may still have one that may be able to be converted to yours. The Oliver 1950t however has a Waukesha 6 cyl turbo engine and will not work
Not sure the availability of a used engine even to use as a core but before I tried to adapt a Mack engine to replace a 4-53 I would sure do some searching. Just keep in mind that all Detroit's and especially the in-lines could be built with an unbelieve number or variations. Just a few are which side the blower is mounted, which side the exhaust is mounted, turboed or just the blower for intake air, variable speed or limiting speed gov. including hydraulic gov! One good thing is depending on what was the actual failure of your engine you maybe able to mix and match parts from any "new" engine to make it work in your application. But would be best if you could find someone local who is familiar with 4-53's.
Check out Ed’s 72-41 thread on here. He’s doing a transplant.
Just keep in mind that he, Ed, is working on a 4-71 not a 4-53. But many of the things he is dealing with like making changes to fit a different version of a 4-71 could apply to replacing one 3-53 with another on from a different application. Not saying it can't be done just need to keep it in mind. One of the "good" things about the Detroits 53's and 71's is that they can be made to fit just about any application short of an airplane! One of the "problems" is that they could be made to fit just about any application. So just because you want to replace a 4-53 with a 4-53 there is no guaranty that the "new to you" engine will just slip in unless it was out of the same make model and vintage machine. That's not to say it can't be made to work just you may have to be prepared to make some changes to components and accessories.
If you don't have anything obstructing dropping the oil pan with the engine in the machine, drop it. Pull the connecting rod caps. If you don't see any evidence of crank bearing failures then pull the head, knock the pistons/rods out of the top of the engine. If you find a failure of piston(s)/liner(s), but the crank and the head is good, drop some new liners and pistons in it with a new oil pump and send it. I wouldn't go with a re-power, especially with a completely different engine (Mack) unless I had no other option, but that's just me. I don't mind work, but I'm no fan of "inventing" work.
That's a good summary , I will pull it apart and see what's up with the engine and go from there, unless we have block know damage then we can fix what I have
Good idea, I mean we are not talking a D399 Cat engine, this little 2 smoke Detroit should only take an afternoon to get to where you can check 90% of the parts. This assumes you can access the oil pan to see the bottom end. Be sure to take lots of picture, both for your use when reassembling and for posting here. We like pictures even if some are not big fans of Detroits! One of the last engines I worked on before retiring from the quarry was a 4-53 in a small Kato genset.
Have Rebuilt at least 25 4-53 Engines. They were prime engine in Timberjack Skidders in Northern Ontario. There is lots of engines out there an can be converted from From blower on one side to the other side easily if you have all the plugs and proper camshafts for them. They are known as RA, RB and a few other configurations. Some were even left hand turning engines. Best to open bottom end and look up as previously stated and work from there. Way easier to fix one of them than repower. If you have any questions please let us know. Simon C
I am ready to pull the engine , here are some pictures , I will be putting engine in garage to dissasemble as it may be a while completing project.
you could pull the airbox covers off for a quick look. those are the 4 oval covers on the side of the block. i'm curious to know if broken rings are jammed in the ports or pieces laying in the airbox
I wonder where these engines are available here in Ontario, I do not even know where to start looking other than online Ok I can check that easily and report back . Thanks
looking at your pictures, your configuration is different from the oliver/cockshutt tractor engine. however, the block MAY be the same but maybe not much else
Yes That's where it gets tricky. I will check mine out when it drys up around here,
Are you sure it’s a 4-53?, looks like a 4-71 to me, but my 70yr old eyes could be wrong, worked on lots of Detroit’s 4-53, it’s the front of engine that,s different
And we have a winner! And the air box covers. Bob
Oh never thought of that! I was told it was a 453, how can I tell for sure
Valve cover is different, easy to tell if you look it up.
Air box covers are 71 for sure. Bob
One easy thing to check is how the Valve Cover is held on. 4-71 will have two large knobs up on the top at the center line of the cover unless it's a newer engine with the cast covers then in place of the large knobs it will have two bolts almost always with 12 point heads on them, thinking a 3/8 wrench fits them. Where a 4-53 will have three small screws or bolts at the outside flange of the cover either 3/8 or 1/4 inch, been many years since I worked on one! Made a correction as I found some pictures, I originally wrote that the 4-53 would have two screws on each side but it should be three. I'll attach some pictures to show each: Top picture shows the red arrows pointing to the holes for 4-53 valve cover hold downs The bottom shows the two large "knobs" for the 4-71. Now if it was a newer cast v.c. there would be 12 point bolts where those knobs a in the picture. If needed I could post a picture of that too!
Whew thanks guys
What little bit I can see looks the same as my engine. Go to my thread, there are plenty of pictures you can use to compare. Plus you’ll get a feel for what was being said about the block may be the same, but different things are bolted to it.
Yes just seen your pictures. Definitely a 4-71. 53's have horizontal air box covers. The water pump on 53's runs off the front pulley.It sits above engine oil cooler. A 4-53 Blower runs off of a drive coupling attached to the rear gear train with a 6 inch or so shaft turning the blower through a flex coupling. This 71 has Dry Fit Liners not wet liners like on 53's. 71 Oil pump is inside pan whereas on 53's it is bolted to front of block on dowel pins. Makis Diesel in Thunder Bay Ontario has tons of experience on these if they are still around. Simon C
Late model 53's also had aluminum valve covers with 12 Point head capscrews going into head. They were excellent for not leaking. They were usually found with crosshead pistons and turbos. Did quite a few of them. Simon c
Hell yeah, bonus that's a 71 series. IMHO, 71 series would sing, they have a tone. 53 series was just noise, just plain old noise.
Well, i missed that . Have been around and worked on both engines and missed the shape of the air box covers. Apparently my memory is failing- just like my wife says . I hate it when she's right lol. I'll just have to look more closely next time although i'm still wondering about a liner issue
Well I knew it is a Detroit , that's about it!!!
I have it out, Tomorrow will have a look inside. Drained out engine oil and there was 4 gallon of antifreeze in there, not good
You’re moving way faster than I was able to. I don’t have other equipment to lift with for one thing.
Ha! well mine is only 15 minutes away, and I think my progress will slow down now as I am afraid I will have a mess inside this engine.
Was the engine partially under the cab? How much? Because my engine was so much under the cab I didn’t try to remove it without pulling the radiator and hard nose, I see you left your hard nose on. I can’t tell if you removed the radiator.
I was lucky I got it out leaving the rad intact. Also I have a driveshaft fron engine to transmission so that helped a lot. I remember we had a 7220 Terex loader and the torque converter was driven by a ring gear ,we had to replace it, so we had to do everything you did removing the old 471. it was not so bad 35 years ago with helping hands .
The engine was just between the rad and the battery box, not underneath at all.
It's been years since I've been inside a Detroit, but IIRC correctly, the 53 series had dry liner bores in the block, but the 71 series had wet liners bores at the bottom of the bore, requires an o-ring seal to keep coolant in the water jacket of the block, o-ring failure will allow coolant into the oil pan, fairly common failure of an aged 71 series.
How in the hell did I miss a Detroit thread!??
The 53 series is a wet sleeve engine. The 71 series is a dry sleeve. The most common coolant failure on the 71's is oring failure on the head gasket or a cracked cylinder head. You can also leak coolant from the injector tubes and the water pump seals. The oil cooler can leak also. Remove the valve cover and see if that engine still has the 2 valve head...........if so you will want to replace it with a 4 valve. OK, its not that necessary to update, but thats what I do when I run across them.
Can you have the title changed now that you know what the engine is?
You got all those about covered! What kind of sucks is the last I knew there was a 4-71 just sitting in a shop up the road. We had rebuilt it to run a portable crusher for the quarry. Trying to remember when that was, possibly in late 1990's, it was used for only a few months then stored in a dry heated storeroom. Every couple years or so I would fire it up and run it for a bit to keep things free. Last time was just before I retired in 2015. Every time if the battery was up it would fire up with only a couple turns of the crankshaft. This was originally a 2 valve head engine that we converted to a four valve when we rebuilt it for that project. It was also equipped with emergency shut down system as it would be running unattended most of the time. Originally when new it was the engine in a Northwest crane and when crane was scrapped we salvaged the engine as it still ran. Someone tried to buy it to run a sawmill back around 1999 but the company thought it was worth it weight in gold then it has just set unused since then. For all I know it might have been pushed out the door since the last time I was there about 3 years ago.
I do not know how to do that
I will give a report as to what I find out when I get it apart, it is seized now , only ran for about a minute or less.
Looks like you’ll have to ask a moderator. Some forums you can do it yourself, but I don’t see that option here.
Bet you have a valve side ways in the head. Bob
Thanks for clarifying that Vetech. Like I said, been years since I've dissected a green leaker.
Believe it or not, mine wasn’t leaking.
Done
DD has not used head gaskets for at least 60 years. All the water pumps I've seen have 2 sealed bearings on the pump drive shaft and a drain hole between them and the water pump seal. Bob
They had a Fire Ring sitting on top of the liner. They had a lot of coolant and lube O-rings. They had what was called a Quad gasket that went around the whole perimeter of the head and this was held in the corners best with Paper matches bent in half to keep the gasket in place when putting The head down. I did that job too many times to count. Simon C
Some DD have 'fire rings ' but they are on the pistons an extra compression ring right below the top of the piston. There is a liner compression gasket that sits on the liner. They use a square grommet for coolant and oil passages. Bob.
Sorry it was my mistake. it was the liner compression gasket that I was referring to on top of the liner. Simon C
True about the drain hole between the seals but around here we have "mud daubers" who like to fill al the holes they can find. Then if the seal on the water side starts to leak the water will push past the oil seal and into the crankcase. Had it happen on Detroit's and Cat's! Wish the engine designers were smart enough to position those drain holes where they were easy to see and clean out!
LOL........are you my wife!??
I meant the oring and not a gasket of course....tomatoe...tomato
Thanks
Yeah, I have found many of those weep holes plugged up with dirt and grime. I wish I had seen this earlier......it would have been best to remove the head first and check for the obvious before pulling the engine completely. Oh well.......lets rebuild that sucker!
You do know what a sealed bearing is right? Bob
I have seen several occasions where coolant was leaking out of the water pump drain hole and the and the operator plugged it to repair the leak. One guy went to a marine shop and bought a thermos type rubber expansion plug to plug the drain 1" plus hole in his 3406 water pump. The pump bearings failed and coolant went into the base and took out the crankshaft and the failed pump damaged the gear train.
Just as I thought sealed not Seal. Bob
You can seal up a seal the Eskimos did. They made a tank out of them to hold whale oil.
one less.
I got it apart today , took off the head, it was fine, looked at #1 piston, there it was crossways! Piston and liner parts throughout entire engine. Removed oil pan and the #1 piston rod bent like a dogs hind leg, worked to remove piston for a couple of hours, then I saw the crack in the block, also the rod bearing was hard to get off the crankshaft. There I will be looking for another 471.
If you weren’t so far, your loader could be a new home for my old engine. It doesn’t have major damage.
True. but it is a little far
Sorry to see the damage. Time to start shopping around for either a good used engine or a rebuildable core. Just be ware that there are many different 4-71's I'm attaching a chart that may be of some help while shopping for an engine. Note that even if the engine you find is arraigned differently you may be able to swap parts from your failed engine to make it work! Also don't assume that the numbers stamped on block or valve cover mean much as these engines have been around for decades and could have had many changes over the years! Good luck looking!!
Thanks for that, I have been looking at the one you posted on Eds page and have a lot of numbers written down here. Those old detroits were quite a design, I found a couple up here so we will see what sort of configuration they are.
What engine arrangement do you have? RC?
If the tag is missing on the valve cover look on the top side of the block on the blower side for the model and serial number. Bob
Yep, green leakers came in a plethora of configurations, but one thing you need to make sure of if you replace it with another is the governor, most equipment engines had the variable speed governor whereas most truck engine applications did not use the variable speed governor. If you put a truck app engine in it you won't be happy with the throttle control while driving and working the loader functions.
Just be aware that what ever you buy could have been completely changed from a different model in the past. What I mean is that I have swapped blowers from one side of an engine block to a different side before. Have swapped camshafts and ballance shafts from 1 side to another on 53's. Sometimes we had to move the Idler Gear of the gear train to make a different configuration. As kshansen showed in his above post there is 4 kinds of left hand engines and 4 right hand engines. Even if you have a serial number, that is not a absolutely guaranteed to be the style of engine you need. Just be careful before buying . I built 1 Engine from about 6or7 wrecks. Take care. Simon C
My water pump engine had a variable speed governor, loader had a limiting speed governor. This seems to conflict with what you’re saying.
As willie59 said beware of governors. Some had limiting speed governors also. If in doubt find a retired guy thats done lots of them for technical help. Simon C
Variable speed governors were different for adjusting fuel racks then limiting speed governors. You need to know what visegrips on the fuel rack for start up means. Get some help if you have never done one or risk complete runaway. Simon C
The blower only fits on one side of a inline 71 ,if you have to have the blower on the other side the block has to be turned around. and most every thing swapped. The cam shaft goes on the side of the head opposite the water manifold . Bob
And that is the reason for some of the arrangement differences.
A guy i used to know tore down a 6-71 and slapped the head back on and found out when he went to set the valves and injectors that he had the head on backwards. There may have been a little bit too much whiskey imbibed during reassembly between him and his helper
Yes
There should be a id tag on your governor. 4 letters determine the type For example............a SWVS would be a single weight variable speed. A DWLS would be a double weight limiting speed, and so forth
You mean having the cam followers riding on the balance shaft would cause a problem?
Him and his helper who was also a licensed mechanic, took a lot of ribbing over that little screw-up. in a small town, gossip travels fast
I dragged home an old 471yesterday, we will see what shape it is in, I think I will pressure test the cooling system first thing
Are the major components arraigned like the engine it is replacing? Blower and exhaust manifold?
Yes a couple of things different, like front motor mount and governor, fuel filter location , all in all pretty good
those should not cause major problems as they should be good on the original engine.
Thats what mine is. The replacement engine was also RC, but it was “dressed up” very different. The guy I bought it from thought I had to use it like it was, and would adapt around it. I told him I’d have to make it the same or it wouldn’t work. None of the new type components would have worked, there wasn’t room for them. There was a spin on filter, but the brake air and master cylinder go there. Plus mine has an automatic transmission, and the original parts connect to the transmission cooler. I quickly went to making everything like it was on the old engine.
Yes I have all the parts I will be transferring over but , I want to make it run first as it sits on a frame should be fairly simple.
You got a stationary power engine like I did? For me that meant swapping a lot of parts. Is the bell housing the same? I had to swap the bell housing. We’d love it if you posted pictures.
I will get some tomorrow after work, it's still in the back of my truck lol
Sounds like you're on the road to getting it going again, hope the replacement engine works out well. If you get it going, whatever you do, don't use 15W-40 in that engine, that oil will murder a 2 stroke Detroit.
You post this almost every time some one post a DD quiz so exactly how many engines have you seen that were defiantly "murdered" by using 15W-40 oil? Bob
There is plenty of documented info out there Bluox, including from Detroit Diesel themselves recommending to not use multi viscosity oil in those engines, although this info is becoming a bit antiquated as these engines haven't been a part of the mainstream for many years now. Yes, I know, I post this every time I see a 2 stroke Detroit post, trust me, I take no pleasure in this repetition, but I'm not the message, just the messenger, the documentation is out there. Myself, yes, I've seen plenty of 2 strokes back in my day that had serious piston, ring, and liner failures, although I could in no way prove that it was caused by those engines were using 15W/40, which they were. But one I have seen that perked my spidey senses, an 8V-71 in an Ingersoll compressor, smoked like the woods was on fire when we got it. I dumped the oil, added straight SAE40 Delo 100, the more we ran that thing the smoke problem from the exhaust cleared up. Anecdotal? For sure it is, but it sure gave credence in my mind to what Detroit Diesel recommenced in those engines, SAE40W, not 15W/40.
I don't believe DD ever recommend a synthetic 40 motor oil. But they have always said 15W-40 was acceptable cold weather oil . In fact not to long ago someone on here posted a DD bulletin from a few years back that said ok to 15W-40 . Any DD will smoke if the oil is not change often enough. Bob
My manual says to use SAE30.
Thanks for that memo, I personally did not know that and I would have dumped in 15w40
You are going to get differing opinions on oil type. I know early in the Detroit years the recommendation was a straight 30/40 weight. All I know is in the last 20+ years I have always used Shell Rotella T 15W40 in all the Detroits I have rebuilt or maintained and have never had an oil related issue. Take that for what its worth
In the early 80s DD gave blessing to 15W-40. I worked jobs where the only motor oil the greasers carried was 15W-40 for the Cats and DD . What most people miss is the oil change interval on DD is 100+/- hours. Bob
You have a really old manual. Bob
Find a 15W-40 that says for mixed fleets and your good to go. Bob
I rebuilt a few Detroit Diesel engines over the years. The ones that ran 15w40 the top compression ring were always stuck in the ring grooves. A coworker with lots of Detroit Diesel experience told me that 15w40 was the reason for that. Detroit Diesel called for low detergent oil for their two strokes.
That top compression ring being stuck in the ring groove is common on high hour engines. I cant say I buy the oil type causing that issue, its more of a combination of dirt infiltration in the airbox....even more so the major cause is incorrect injector timing or insufficient atomization causing excessive heat.
I believe I've come to the conclusion to not bring up this topic anymore as it always gets to be quite a topic of discussion. The 2 stroke Detroit is an old engine, and had a very unique oil appetite because of its design. Detroit themselves determined what oil worked best for those engines for maximum life and performance including a sulfated ash content of 1.0% or lower, Detroit worked out the science on this. Multigrade oils came along near the end of the life of the 2 stroke, and there were problems noted by large fleet owners when they switched to using multigrade oil, problems they weren't having previously with SAE30 or 40, increased oil consumption, ring failure, which prompted Detroit to produce a bulletin recommending not using multigrade oil. That was then. Yes, over time now, perhaps multgrade oil chemistry has improved over the early oils and will work with no real issues. Again, we're talking about old engines here. All I'm saying is the preferred oil in those engines by Detroit themselves is SAE40, SAE30 in extreme cold climates.
So how did the oil get to the fire ring? Bob
On the contrary, this topic alone should have its own thread. It can be like a giant pillow fight! I mean, who wouldn't want to smack Bluox a few times! LOL
I would suspect the oil was in the airbox and when the top rings went below the ports in the cylinder they were getting oil there.
Many, many years ago before i had any detroit experience other than running ts14's, i was working at a small ag dealership and the owner took in trade a Hesston Harvest Queen SP silage chopper with a 6V53( if i remember correctly). It was slobbering oil out of the air-box drains and he made me plug them so he could sell it. He didn't want any potential buyers scared away due to the messy discharge. He was the guy that signed my paycheque so i did it his way. Years after I often wondered how long it ran before it sucked enough oil through the ports to cause problems
I was in a Cummins school for the A, B and C engines in the nineties when this issue came up. The instructor stated that it was Cummin's specification to use 15W40 oils in their engine and not straight grades. He showed us lots of photos of what straight grade oils did to the pistons of their engines. At that time he also stated that Detroit two cycle engines required straight grade 40wt. FYI, here is a site where a supplier is recommending 40wt straight grade oil for 2 strokes. https://www.barringtondieselclub.co.za/detroit/detroit-diesel-oil-analysis.html
I have been working on the 471 trying to switch over a few components , then I noticed there must be 2 different crankshafts on 471, 1 with a harmonic balence and 1 with out? I Am thinking this is a problem!ad I was wanting to switch the pullys
You might get lucky and the snout on the crankshafts are the same.
Thank you , I will go out and try to pull them off and see, looks like it will take quite a pull
The 92 series had tapered collars holding the damper to the crank. The pulley had to come off first.
Oil threads-I was the one who posted pages from detroit manual showing the use of 15x40. What oil should I run in a briggs?
So its all YOUR fault! LOL
If you join the Barrington engine club they have that info, you know the DD experts that recommend change oil every 150 hours and the filter at 450 hours? The 30 or 40 wt. oil that doesn't exist any more. Ya gotta love these experts these guys come up with but I guess these may be somewhat closer than Willes used Grayhound bus salesman in Texas selling wore out buses to Mexico 25 years ago. Bob
I have a copy of the 1997 Detroit Diesel Lubricating oil, Fuel, And Filters manual if anyone really wants to see pages from that!
Sorry to rain on your parade but they do still make 30 and 40 wt oil for Detroits. Delo 100 is rated CF2 for 2 stroke engines. Very popular in Marine engine use.
Take this to the oil thread fellas. Willie is making popcorn!
DD-13, 15, and 16 at 80,000 gvw Detroit says every 60,000 miles on a oil change, same with cummins and the X-15 rocket plane. Cummins X-15 overhead adjustments can run 500,000 before adjustment. They are smoking a high grade of pot. Pandering.
Where is that thread. I like popcorn!!
In the general section
I did not say there was not a 30 or 40 wt oil I said that web sight called out a oil spec that doesn't exist any more Ace.
Wait, What? “Cummins X-15 overhead adjustments can run 500,000 before adjustment.” Has an x15 ever went that long without dropping a liner or breaking a crank?
Moved a lot of Delo 100 40wt CF-2 to the Dutch Harbor fleet. Can even use it in the 149’s. Anchorage FD for their old ladder trucks with 8v-92’s and the Juneau bus tour companies with old fleets.
OMG!......It has finally happened! I get to bust Bluox's balls for once in my life............I am so EXCITED I can't sit still! I feel like NOW I can even the score, it feels like I have just won the Powerball Lotto It's SITE..........not sight TAKE THAT!!!
Crap busted by the spelling Nazi ,but ya gotta give me points for spelling Bob with only one o. Bob
The 471 I bough was older, 2 valve . I want to put my 4 valve head on it, I have not tore into the engine yet, going to see how good it runs when the weather is a little less wet. But if I do deceided to go 4 valve route, and this is an older engine with a head gasket what all will I be up against? I am thinking a lot of work and $$$$$$
I seem to recall the two valve engines were low blocks and used the head gasket while the four valve engine were high block and used the fire rings around the liners and o rings around the oil and water ports.
2 valve had fire rings also when they were on high block . 4 valve also had advanced timing and different size window ports in the liners and i think pistons to get all the ponys . some one double check me on that but i think thats correct
Again, I seem to remember the two valve heads were thinner and couldn’t be used on the high blocks. I do know the advanced cam timing was on the engines with N injectors. I worked on some bus engines that had split ports. I don’t recall any difference in the size of standard ported liners. That was way too long ago and those things don’t get remembered well in the heat of a rebuild.
What is the serial number on your block the 4A- number ? Does it have head bolts or studs with nuts? The high block motors used 2 valve heads. Bob
IMO-He probably ended up with one of those really rare {in between blocks not low or high and has bolts plus studs with oval liner ports.
Hell it might be one of those rare 3 valve heads between the 2 and 4 valve heads . I have never figured out how the fire rings end up on top of the liners and not on the pistons. Might have something to do with 15w-40 oil. Bob
Has anybody seen a blown up 2 valve 71 series engine? If it fits I would just swap them out. Where is junkyard in all of this?
21 years ago I was cleaning out the storage area at the previous shop I ran. I dropped a perfectly good running 4 valve 4-71 from the highest point the forklift would reach into a scrap dumpster. I advertised it {free} nobody wanted it. It made a nice crunching sound as it landed.
All I know is some 2 valve engines had the high blocks. We took an old 2 valve 4 cylinder engine that was in a Northwest crane and rebuilt to be used as a stationary engine to run a crusher. When we did we replaced the 2 valve head with a 4 valve head and installed N injectors with I advanced timing. Forget what size, may N-65? That engine is still sitting in the store room at the shop where it has been for something like 15 years after it was used for one or two seasons running the crusher. Stopped by to talk to my former boss a few weeks back and he said he has fired it up at least once in the last year. Other than a bit of dust from sitting it looks like it was just assembled last week! Biggest problem is the quarry is owned by a large multi-nation corporation and trying to get someone to agree to sell it would take a major effort and they would probably think it was worth ten time the going price for an old Detroit!
I want to know how that felt? LOL
Geez......can you return it and get your money back? You are just opening a whole new can of worms.
.
Well I did a search on the innerweb and found this: "a high block has on the lower side oposite the blower a GM motif in a square box (earlier) or in a circle (later) .. also at the top of the block at the Head join approx 1/2" from each end a 1/4" groove machined into the block which has a huge square oring in it.. the head gaskets for a high block are a set of square O rings and steel gaskests for each liner.. the Low block as a one piece head gasket similar to any engine head gasket.." The part about the groove makes sense now that I think of it! Clean off the joint area where the head meets the block. Then look real close just back of the front or rear of the head. If it has that groove showing it's the high head style. See arrow in picture below that is the groove you should be able to see the ends of either front, rear or sides of block just under head.
Yes I have a lot of half open cans of worms around here. The engine was not to expensive, and it does run, smokes like a chimney, and it starts like a worn out 2 valve. Maybe some run time on a stand and see what it does would be the best way to approach the project.
4A-64008 model number is 4058 by the looks of it
I know for sure the engine that blew up was a high block with square O ring, I will check the replacement 2 valve engine and see what it is.
Yours is a high block about 44000 past a low block. My serial number book only goes back to 1971 169890 so your engine is plenty old. Bob
well that is good news. I can handle “ plenty old” it just goes with the territory
Well today I finally got those pulleys and harmonic balancer off both engines, then I found out it is for sure a high block, all wasgoing so well until I took off air box covers and found this!
Did you mean to attach a picture?
Yes
So, what seems to be the problem? Bob
A lot of oil in airbox. It looks to me like there is also a lot of dirty old oil in in blower. The engine that blew up was clean and dry in air box and blower area.
We call that BLACK GOLD around here
Why is it you are not rebuilding the old engine again?
Are any of the ports plugged with carbon?
Put a kit in the blower might be part of that and that engine might have seen a lot of idling something detroits dont like
Piston separated and cracked the block, bent crankshaft etc. It was a good engine too! I am thinking of putting head and 3 good pistons in this engine in pictures, and buying 1 new piston and liner and see what happens, This engine in the pictures looks pooched to me. But maybe not , just thought I would ask for opinions on here
I am in the middle of putting a good blower on it and going torun it and see what happens. Luckily this is not a time sensitive project!
No
Not sure of how much use you have planed for this machine so that would enter into how deep I would be thinking of going. Big difference in a machine that will see 1,500 hours use a year to one that might only see 300 hours use or less. Or if this is a winter project and you have a nice heated shop and lots of free time! I might be tempted to try cleaning some of that gunk out while it's open, just make sure the drain pipe(s) are clear. Then while working on one cylinder have the piston up high for that one. I know you can't get everything out but it might help. Another option would be to strip it down to bare block and clean everything good. If crosshatching is still good in the cylinders I might even be tempted to just keep all parts matched and reuse.
I'm betting the rings are thin. I would clean that airbox out as suggested.
If there are no plugged ports, that's a positive then. I agree with trying another blower on it. The seals in the current blower may be passing oil especially if the shutdown flapper has been used too many times. The flapper is only meant to be used in an emergency such as an engine runaway
Can I put a 4 valve head on a high block engine with trunk style pistons?
I hope you marked those liners when you took them out. Bob
No, that’s not good is it.
Yes
Ok thanks for that
You Heathen!
Those ports look awful small! I know all the engines we did, 99% were four valve engines, had larger port I believe they were a little over one inch tall. Just looked in old after market parts book and see it has three different sizes of ports, 0.81, 0.95 and 1.05 high. I'm thinking the small round ports were for the 2 valve engines.
I have measured as best as I can and I think I can put my 3 pistons and liners in the 2 valve block. I will have to fine 1 more piston and liner. That being said, how do I advance the timing? The ports on the 4 valve that I am going to use are around an inch in size, just a little larger than the 2 valve ones on the bench
Timing is advanced by removing the flywheel housing and moving the Idler gear one tooth from the "R" to the "A" mark on the crank gear. But I don't have the Inline book so not sure which you should be running I know it depends on injectors used and turbo or non-turbo engine.
I was lol look at the blown up engine block and see where the r and a mark are in it, then make this one the same . Thanks, I did not even know where to begin on timing
Buy a service manual . The liners in a 71 series are all the same on the inside bore but there used to be over a dozen different ones . The thing is the outside may be oversize to match the block so you need to measure the outside of the liners and the bore in the block to get the right fit. Get the injector tag numbers and color on the ones you want to run and I will look up the timing. Bob
Yea on the OD of the liners! Was always fun getting the right fit on the liners. Even if they were all standard bore in the block sometimes had to swap new liners from cylinder to another to get a good fit. As I recall Genuine Detroit liners for standard were identified at factory by the positioning of the part numbers on the side. Could not find reference to this in manual but seems I heard that back in the day!
I have a service manual and, thanks I will have a look at them whenever the weather warms up a bit so I can get the shed door open to have a look at the head they are in. I can not find a measurement of liner comparison to liner size, eg std1 or std 2 etc. That being said, I have measured the outside and it is .4627” (replacement liner) and .4643” old liner I am replacing) To my amazement, yesterday they were within .001” of each other! Oh, did I mention the only measuring device is a set of digital calliper, not the best,but that’s what I have.
This morning I tried a liner in the block and it will not work, way to loose. I think I will just find another engine that runs. thanks for all your help
My wife will be so glad when I get this out of the house garage! Finally got the parts I need to put it together
When I met my wife. She didn't like the big block in the kitchen and the toolbox in the living room. I had to change my ways when she moved in.
I got that machine running about a month ago and other than a few oil leaks it seems to run and operate pretty good, considering what it is
Thanks for all the detailed pictures of the rebuild and installation, and describing the process. We live for that. You wouldn’t believe it, but some people don’t post any of that, and just say “I’m done”…
Even tonight I was looking on your thread for some information Ed. That was a big project for me I also fixed the one way bearing in the torque converter when the engine was out.