I’ve been following this forum for years and finally decided to jump in. I’m planning to retire in about two years and would like to focus on small-job excavation once that time comes. My current setup includes an 80 HP wheeled skid steer, a 40 HP mini excavator, a dump trailer, a flatbed one-ton truck, and a good mix of attachments. I have some basic experience — things like shooting simple grade and doing small road repairs. I’ve been thinking about adding a tracked machine, possibly something like a Cat 289, though I’ve run my Gehl 6640 for years and still love how it performs. I’d really appreciate hearing from those of you running small excavation outfits with five or fewer employees — especially your thoughts on whether making the switch to tracks is worthwhile, and what equipment you’d recommend for a simple, efficient setup. It may also be worth mentioning that I operate another business that’s somewhat similar, so I do have manpower I can pull from when needed to help with this next adventure. I’m looking forward to any advice or real-world experience you’re willing to share.
Why would you want to spend a big chunk of your retirement money on a new machine you might not even need? Are you working in soft ground where you need the flotation or just think it would be neat to have a CTL?
Will not be using retirement money, this will be a cash purchase. I am located in NE Kansas, simular soil type as Iowa and north MO. Looking for folks with experiance in the field.
Do you have a CDL? What truck/trailer do you have to haul equipment currently? What kind of jobs are you wanting to go after and what is your terrain like? A CTL might be a good option, but a 450 size 6-way blade dozer may be better, just depends on what you want to do. I run a small excavation, fencing and general construction business, just myself and occasionally a helper. My pieces of equipment that are an absolute must have: 5 ton mini ex, CTL, 6-way LGP dozer, and tandem dump truck. I also have a 4wd backhoe, wheeled skid steer, and a couple tractors that also see regular use. When I got started in excavation I just had the backhoe, dozer, wheeled skid and a single axle dump. Did lots of work with that equipment over the years, but adding the mini ex and CTL were big productivity boosters. Especially on tight jobs, difficult terrain and with bad weather conditions.
Welcome to the Forums KSf! Glad to have you. What is your other business? When you "retire" will you keep the existing business and start this one? What is your target market and customer? How crowded is your market area?
I do have a CDL, I have had different equipment in the past, right now I use a F350 and a 22 ft flat bed trailer thats 14,000 gvw or a 16ft dump trailer. We are in rolling hills with deep black soil, very little rock. I have thought about getting a single axle dump truck and a heavier trailer. What HP CTL do you find most handy? I have had a few cat and bobcat 90-100 hp units. Currently do not though.
Thank you. My other business is forestry related, some years its great, other years its slow, I will keep the other business. Target customer is small businesses and private landowners, I have thought about septic and storm shelters Its not a very crowded market, most of the larger companies are doing large ag projects.
Im always blown away at the amount of money that has to be spent to make money. As an employee, I do my job and go home. My employer had been in business since the 40s. These last 5 or 6 years have been the biggest years they have ever had 250,000 to blast 100,000 tonnes of rock. No money coming in yet. Crush the rock, no money, truck the rock, no money, place the rock, wait for money. Rock in stock pile no money. Fuel, gas, insurance, safety, training, environmental. Buying new equipment and tools, liquid asphalt Somewhere over 800 000 in wages every month. And a lot of the larger companies don't pay for 90 days. Blows me away when I think how much operating capital they would have to keep in the company to stay afloat between getting paid for work
Septic and storm are great markets for a smaller company IMO. The bonus here at least is the septic tank pre-caster also makes storm shelters for a one stop supplier. Also not hard to upsell a shelter on a new build when installing the septic.
It's a scalable thing according to the size of the company. Carrying $100K a month for one company might stress their cash flow to the max whereas a larger company can stroke a $100K check to get a sub on site a month earlier than the schedule shows. Back in 2020 we were working on a $100M job we were performing civil demo and site work where we came in a month early on the earthwork portion. The GC then offered the deep foundation drillers a $20K bonus to come in ahead of the schedule. Of course we received no such bonus.. CE looks like the company you work for has some deep pockets.
My CTL is a Kubota SVL 65-2, I think it's 68hp and has a ROC 2100lbs. It will carry a full pallet of block or a 4000lb concrete water trough and reaches over the side of my tandem dump truck. I prefer CTL's 75hp or under to stay away from DEF and light enough to haul with a pickup. That said, I only use mine for 'skid steer type stuff' and not heavy excavating. IMO a dozer or crawler loader is much better suited to that type of work.
I was able to start small and work up to running 5-7 crews in our other business. We usually do not collect for a few months so you need to have a few 100,000 on hand to make payroll while waiting for the payments to come in. What worked for me is starting small and working my way up.
I wonder if anyone does dirt work with skid steer (tire machines) rather than track loaders.
Welcome to the HEF, KSfire. Good to have you. I’m self-employed because nobody in their right mind would hire me. Ankle monitor, no drivers license and something in my biology prevents me from passing a UA. Or, even a hair follicle test. Weirdest thing. In today’s workforce shortage, instead of the risk and liability of dirt work, I’d take a cushy 3x3 operator position in the oil patch. Three hots and a cot, no stress, excellent benefits, late model equipment and stack the paper. Buy a CLT just for funsies. Wash and wax it on the weekends.
A rubber tire skid steer is fine for landscaping and smaller scale dirt work and a lot cheaper to maintain if you keep it for several years. I don't think they'll be obsolete any time soon. Better for snow clearing too.
I think it's the asphalt. I complain about how hard it is to work for the department of highways with their specs and safety rules. The bridge job. They decided to renew the old off and on ramps. They milled 2 inches off the top. They always do something with the old shoulders before they pave. Not this time. I've done it enough times to know it was milled too deep on the paved shoulder that the rap shoulder was going to be too high. That would fall under extra work. But we are the sub to the bridge company So it's their call to go through DOT. DOT says it's up to the consultants. The say it should be fine and don't want to spend that kind of money. They pave it and it's higher than the asphalt. Now they want it done. It's compacted milled asphalt. I have to put 3 teeth down on my small grader and try to break it up without marking the new road. Every mark is 500 bucks against us. Takes me half a day. 2 marks on the edge. I give our asphalt super my time. She says how long would you have been if they had let you fix it before it was paved. An hour easy. Big grader pull it in onto the milled surface. Load it on the truck, probably 2 loads. Dump on site. She does the math according to what DOT rate is for extra work. Less than a thousand dollars is what they didn't want to spend. We'll get more now. But they will take a thousand for the 2 marks. I ask why do they bother bidding these jobs. She said you guys pay for yourself and make some money but it's the asphalt that makes the money. I feel less important, but she reassured me by saying we couldn't lay the black top without you guys
As I mentioned before, I did dirt work for years with my Case 1845C before I got my CTL. With a good low profile excavating bucket with teeth and good tires it would dig pretty well. Was plenty sufficient for doing small cut and fill jobs, fine tuning a grade for slabs, spreading rock and topsoil, loading trucks, etc. I still use it frequently depending on the job, the wheeled machine often does less damage to the ground than the CTL and if working on pavement I greatly prefer it. Where the wheeled machine was not so good is when the ground was steep or the soil conditions were wet. I just had to be selective in the jobs I did and watch the weather.
I've intentionally stayed small and my finances don't have to work like that. No payroll (only sub's) and no accounts receivables. Payment is due when the job is complete, period. No net 30 billing or even "I'll drop a check in the mail Monday." I'm very upfront about this with all customers, even the larger commercial ones. I'll drive down to the office and stand and wait while the secretary cuts me a check if I have to. If the job is larger than $5K in materials I'll get a materials deposit up front. Been doing it this way for almost 25yrs and have had very few complaints or problems as long as they know upfront. I do realize there comes a scale where this isn't possible, but it works for me.
My business is similar, but I've modified the payment plan. I generally don't need the up front deposit for material (I only deal with residential jobs with a "good feeling of the homeowner"), but I do now require partial payment(s) via personal check, once the job has started and the material is there, all my equipment is there, and I've made quite a bit of progress, especially when 3/4 of the job is completed. In the past, with just the deposit for the materials, and an end payment, the homeowner can hold you hostage before some detail is completed, before they will make the final payment. This way, by the end of the job, it's only a small balance due.
I understand. We move dirt so we can install the storm sewers and detention. The money is in pipe, the bigger the better, however you have to move the dirt, demo the site and install erosion control as a package with it. A good friend of mine has a very similar business model. He has a few part time hands only for his cows and one full time dump truck driver. He has a 953, T300, PC78 and some tractors along with a tri-axle and tandem dump. Only works for people he knows or vets them. We are in the commercial market where the terms are 30 days which is acceptable for what we do. Currently doing a small high end day spa for the owner who works for a very large GC where he offered to pay weekly and I declined. We are not set up to bill weekly so it would have been more trouble than it's worth. If I worked in the residential market I would do the same as you. Back to the OP's question - Do you already have a wheeled skid steer? My advice is always run what you brung however if you are purchasing a machine I would buy a CTL for more versatility. Sold my last wheeled machine 12 years ago and never looked back.
^ run what ya got and see. If it is really crappy a CTL does not make that much difference, and I would get some mats or planks and work my way out with an excavator. The CTL only helps on the middle ground. It does that well.
I should clarify, on larger jobs ($40-50K+) I do get partial payments as work is completed, with final balance due when the project is done. While I'm in a position now where I could float the balance on materials and labor to the end, I have no desire to, I'm a contractor not a bank.
Yeah I have a pretty large and loyal customer base that keeps me busy, I do take new customers by word of mouth, but as you mentioned I vet them carefully. I've taken hundreds of personal checks over the years and only got one or two bad ones (knock on wood.)
To the OP what model skid steer and mini ex do you currently have?
X2. I have a deal with my banker - they don't move dirt and I don't do financing. Works well.
We bought a track skid steer and never looked back. I know CM doesn't like bobcat. And never heard of snow but we have 3 tracked Bobcats and they even bought snow tracks for plowing with them. They still have a couple wheeled machines, one is the old drive with your hands, dig with your feet but everyone prefers the track machine
It was an abusive relationship..
And that's not saying a wheel machine won't do the job, just seems to be everyone's preferred machine. Myself, I'll try my hand at anything but I stay clear of skid steers. I guess im anti skid
I could see a person getting messed up physically just from getting in and out of a skid steer/CTL thousands of times. Some machines you literally have to crawl into them. Truck drivers can get their bodies messed up after years of driving and machines aren't much different, sometimes worse.
Great feed back. Thank you
I have a 80 hp wheeled machine.
Awesome feedback