I'd appreciate hearing what you think/know happened. My JD 310c needed to have the Fuel Injection Pump Rebuilt, there were a few things wrong with it.... plus I replaced the fuel pump and filter being the fuel pump felt weak when I was bench testing it... I know for a fact I had installed the injection pump back on perfectly making sure the forward of the two rubber seals didn't fold back sliding the injection pump onto the gear shaft..., I honestly felt assured that I made sure that first seal did not fold back when sliding the pump back on the gear shaft.... The motor started right up and it ran great, lots of power and never idled better. In total I guess I ran it for around 3 to 4 minutes before I seen the fuel got into the oil, the engine oil dip stick was 4 inches over fill, and it was like liquid... the motor still sounded okay when I shut down, but I don't know if I ruined any part of the motor yet... I would hope not being it sounded okay, just a little tappy... When I took the pump out to see what went wrong I was able to see that seal on the shaft showed no signs of folding back, so I don't have a clue why so much fuel dumped into the oil??? Anybody know what happened? any suggestions what happened? Here are a few things I'm thinking that may have happen; *I know putting the two news seals on the gear shaft that comes out of the motor that the pump slides over, them two seals needed to be stretched out pretty good to get them into place, so maybe I should have waited a while for the memory of the rubber seals to go back to their normal shape before putting it back together so fast and start it up like I did? Because I think the seals were not true and seated correctly just yet to their original shape.... *Or, when I blew some air in the return fuel line to make sure it was not blocked from pump debris, I should have taken the fuel tank cap off to let the air out, but I really didn't blow all that much air, but anyway I hooked up the fuel return line while fuel was still shooting back, so at the time I figured it was priming the pump, but now I'm thinking it may have been pushing fuel into the pump finding its way into the oil, and again saying the newly installed shaft seals were still not seated properly from being stretched out to get them on the shaft it was no problem for the fuel to pass by them.... *when I took the pump off I seen I must have made the faintest hint of a scratch, that was most likely made from the gear shaft end from sliding the injection pump on, I really didn't see how this can have been the problem being it was hardly felt when feeling it. so I took a tool with the same circumference and rubbed it on top of the line scratch until it became soft and I didn't feel the edge anymore, so I didn't even use any type of sanding or removed any material with polishing the scratch away, so not to take away from the diameter of the pressed in brass/copper bushing.. I'm hoping that its when the fuel was pushing back from blowing air into the fuel return line was the problem... I'm guessing about a cup or a little more found its way into the oil from when I hooked up the line while still pushing fuel back.... I'm going to drain about a half quart and see if the dip stick goes back to normal, it will tell me a lot....
Been there Yep, I had that happen on a 450C dozer. I took the pump on and off 4 times thinking that I had that seal right, too. And changed oil and filter 4 times too. It still tore it. You have to have the governor wired open when you slide it on otherwise it's going to tear it every time. Just get a piece of balin' wire and tie the throttle lever back before you install it.
Thanks d9gdon for the advice... If you did that 4 times before it worked out, I got lucky with the 2nd try having it worked out now... I can't believe no matter how meticulous I was with slowly sliding the injection pump on the gear shaft while working the seal into place, that I must have been obviously fooled in thinking it went in correctly, I don't see how it could have been anything else with letting fuel into the engine oil.... I learned just short of not having the JD tool used for guiding the seals into the pump, I need to use a Dentist's mirror to be able to look all around the entire seal as I work it into place... I believe another thing about this particular seal is, I may have assumed I'd feel some kind of resistance if it was to go in the wrong way. This mistake could have been a HUGE disaster, by not paying attention that the engine oil was getting cut with diesel fuel damaging the engine, as it is now I'm wondering if anything became a little worn out or damaged a bit in the engine being there was a good gallon plus of fuel mixed in the oil before I noticed and shut down....
Diesel in oil I doubt you did any damage at all. I filled the oil pan up with diesel and fired it up for a couple of minutes on my 416C after the river completely submerged it last winter. That was the only way I could think of flushing the sand out of the engine after I had filled the engine totally full and drained it out a couple of times. I think the Cat service manager told me to do that, come to think of it.
Fuel in Oil Junior member hijacking a thread since I can't begin my own. I have a new to me Case 580B with the 207 and Roosa Master pump. Was working this tractor and found the oil very overfull (gallons over). Suspected the pump was leaking into the crankcase so I had the pump rebuilt and the injector nozzles were rebuilt too. This was done at a local shop as I didn't have the time to do the work. Got the tractor back and found the same problem. Oil is overfull again. I was a Cat mechanic about two decades ago so feel like I have a pretty good grip on what should be wrong with this but was so disappointed with the shops work I guess I think I'm going to get into this myself. This final blow for me was the mechanic told me that I had a miss on one cylinder which is true, but when I asked if he checked the valve lash or compression to fix the problem he said no. This mechanic believes I have a hole in a piston but in my experience you would have some wicked blow-by if that were the case and that is not what this machine is doing. Not familiar with this engine or pump so I know there is a lot that you guys can teach me, but it seems like the leak has to be from the pump and from looking at this forum it appears that the umbrella seals would be a very likely cause. So, I'm searching for a supplier that will sell the seal kit and I'm wondering if some of you that are familiar with this problem can guide me through some of the problems I could encounter. I'm assuming this is fuel in the oil, am I correct or could there be another problem (power steering pump could be a culprit but it is full and doesn't have the volume to fill the crankcase like the problem that I'm having)? Do you think the umbrella seals are the problem? It appears that the pump can be taken off the engine as a unit or leaving the pump cam behind. Which way is better when replacing the seals? How do you replace the umbrella seals without damaging them during installation? Any important things about timing the pump that I should know about? I might be totally off and I'm hoping everyone here will steer me down the correct path. Thanks
RT, take the valve cover off and make sure the pushrods are in place. I have made a career out of these hoes and a cylinder missing will allow the fuel injected but not firing to be forced down into the pan, about 3qts to a gallon a day. Find your miss and you may cure the dilution problem. Oh BTW years ago before filters it was common practice to drain the oil, fill to level with Kerosene and start and idle for several minutes to rinse the engines down. Fuel mixed with the oil will not hurt if not put to any work so maybe much todo about nothing as far as engine damage is concerned. Unless someone has put the 207 in a B should have a 188. A 207 will drop right in however. Mel
Thanks Mel. I will check that first.
Welcome to the forum reservetank. :usa
It has been a busy summer but finally got some umbrella seals and tore into this problem. As melben predicted check the miss first. Pulled off the valve cover and found #1 intake push rod bent and #1 exhaust push rod snapped in half. That solves the mystery of the miss. I'm ordering the pushrods now and I'll let you know what happens. Any guesses on how this happened? I would imagine the previous owner was a little happy with the starting fluid.
RT, I suspect that the starting fluid may have caused the problem as it has occoured more often than to be a coincidence in my career . I suspect that The cold could freeze moisture in a valve stem to the guide momentarily and the piston drive the valve back up with the pushrod out of place. I would replace the pushrods, set the valves and run it, I would guess that your dilution problems are over unless you have reason to suspect that they were damaged upon assembly which should have shown up immediately. melben
Melben, first of all thanks for your reply. Very helpful. Secondly can I ask another question? I'm going to change the fluid in the shuttle. I worked on one of this decades ago and remember that you were supposed to put in about half of the fluid into the shuttle and then start the tractor and add the second half while running and shifting between forward and reverse. Is that correct? Also do you simply drain the shuttle pan or is there another plug in the torque converter you have to pull to completely drain the fluid. I'm a little foggy on this but remember something about this. Again many thanks for your help. reservetank
RT, Glad the pushrod thing turned out ok for you. Drop the converter pan and clean the screen, get a long heavy screwdriver and working up through the hole in the Bell housing turn the engine till you find a plug, 7/16 hex, remove it and let the converter drain. Reinstall the pan with a bead of silicone sealer and refill to level allowing a lot of time to stabilize as the converter refills. Fill it with the brakes locked, idling in 4th gear fwd shuttle, be safe, if the brakes are not good put the stabs down to insure that it will not move. Use oil recommended by Case as I am in another forum discussion where oil caused lined plate material to turn soft to the point of being mushy and peeling off the steel. First the powershift plates failed then 60 hrs later the brake plates did the same. It was an aftermarket oil. As I told that man, that oil would not turn out to be a good deal if the salesman would have paid him $500:00 and gave him the oil to boot. By the time the man pays a dealer to repair the damage the bill will exceed the value of the tractor, a 77 model year unit. melben
Melben, I'm hoping I can get another piece of advice. Long story short the installed pushrods loosened some carbon buildup in the dead cylinder and once that was loose I couldn't turn over the engine by hand. I tried to blow it out suck it out, soften it and remove it ....nothing. Off with the head and I'm about to go back together after redoing the valves, guides, etc. It needed it so it was worth taking it off. Is there anything to know about the reassembly....I don't have a service book so any potential mistakes that one could make, such as head gasket upside down but that doesn't look possible. I don't have the torque sequence or value but I'll call the dealer where I got the parts and at least get the torque for the bolts (searching the internet it looks like 100-110) Any techniques that you've developed that have helped. I hope to get back to this on Tuesday so hopefully I'll have this all back together and running by then. Again, many thanks.
Nothing unusual as far as installing the head, cleanliness of course, I would lightly oil the fasteners before screwing them down. The head gasket has two large dowel holes so cannot be installed wrong, if you just start from the center and work toward the ends you will do ok without a pattern, crisscrossing as you go. 115 rings a bell as the torque figure we use. I would retorque hot and the procedure recommended nowdays is to back each off one at a time 1/4 turn, then retorque to torque then do the same to all. I would rough set the valves, start and run for a short time, then allow it to cool and reset to specs. Mel.
Check your injectors. If one is bad or stuck open it will dump fuel into your engine.
Hey Mel, Things are all back together and the loader is running well. Thanks for all the advice. It seems like the engine is loading up a little bit on fuel at high engine speeds. At max RPM it goes from smooth running to a bit of a stumble, which I attribute to excessive fuel. Is there anything adjustment that can be made for that problem? RT
RT. Did you retime the engine, It sounds like retarded timing to me, that high rpm miss is typical of timing issues. While the purists may not like this I would loosen the injection pump mounting nuts and turn the pump in its slots with it running and see if moving the pump smooths it out. IIRC the top of the pump coming out toward you should advance it and I would not be surprised if it smooths up for you. If it does then try a total retiming of the engine with the flywheel marks and the window on the RM pump. I have had some pumps that the transfer piump pressure dropped far enough that the advance piston was not being moved. This is a pump shop repair. I have had some people who wanted to cheap out that I just left the pump setting where the engine ran smooth. Overfueling is not a likelyhood. I suppose a governor could get jittery but rarely does that happen. There is a plastic window that can be installed on the window on the injection pump with degree markings that we use to make sure that the advance is working properly. Report back after you loosen the pump and change the timing manually, top of pump out toward you. Mel
I did not adjust the timing and checked it while adjusting the valves and it is very close maybe just a tad off the mark. I will try a slight adjustment with the tractor running and see how that goes. I will report back, but it will be three weeks or so before I get back to the farm again. Many many thanks. RT