Floating, duo-cone, cone, metal face, toric ring, all names used to describe a very old seal design used primarily in undercarriage components, finals drives, and rollers. Recently a thread asked how to properly install floating seals. Installation tools are available, I'm pretty certain a Cat store can supply the tool, but in a pinch you can still achieve a proper install with some simple materials. A floating seal assembly consists of two matching seal halves. Each seal half has two components, 1) the white iron (cast iron) seal ring which has a precision ground surface that mates with the other half to form a rotating seal, and 2) the toric ring which is the rubber elastomer (think bohunkin o-ring) that provides both the tension to force the two seal halves together and provides the external seal. When installing a floating seal it's imperitive that the toric ring is not twisted, is not rolled up the ramps of either the seal ring or ramps of the housing ring it fits in, and is uniform in installed depth, no spots where toric is installed deeper than other spots. First thing to do is clean the housing ring that the toric ring presses into. Use only a soft wire brush on a die grinder, do not use any form of abrasive tool. As far as the housing goes, it's useable as long as the outer lip which holds the toric ring in place is still good, and as long as the ramps aren't deeply pitted, defaced, or worn. A little bit of imperfection of the ramp is tollerable as the toric ring is under a lot of pressure which will make a seal, but you at least need a good smooth surface for a good seal. Now prepare the floating seal for install. Always work with seal on a clean cloth and keep work equipment and area as clean and dirt/dust free as possible. Find some automotive type insulated wire that will fit snug in the groove between the toric ring and the underside of the seal ring face. I happened to find some 12 GA insulated wire that worked perfect. It can't be a loose fit or it will allow the toric ring to walk up the ramp of the seal ring, and it can't be too tight or it will push the toric off of the seal ring, you just need a good snug fit. Work the wire around the circumference of the seal, just be careful with your fingers around the steel seal surface. Although the edge of the seal ring isn't sharp as a knife, it's plenty sharp enough to put a nasty cut on a fingertip. Then join some zip ties together and gently zip them down centered on the wire to hold wire in place. You don't have to pull them excessively tight, just snug enough to hold wire in the groove. Although it's recommended to install the seal dry, no oil or grease on the surfaces, installing the seal dry creates a lot of friction working against you. I typically use spray silicone lubricant as it leaves a dry lubricating film. Others use lubricants such as WD-40 as it's a thin film lube that evaporates the liquid as well, and even dry talcum powder will do the trick. Flip the seal ring over so the toric ring is on top, spray the toric ring and the housing ring that the seal fits into with the spray silicone.
Place the seal squarely on the housing, use gentle even pushing pressure, pushing seal straight into the housing. After enough pressure is applied it will pop in place. Once seal has popped in, remove the zip ties and the electrical wire. Keep in mind we're doing this by hand, chances are when toric ring popped in that the seal isn't perfectly aligned with the housing. Note on the right that the seal is in a bit farther than the left side of pic. We can work with a little misalignment, but if it's way off, pull seal out and repeat process. On the right side you can see a gap between the toric ring and the lip of the housing indicating toric is installed deeper in housing. On the left side, no gap between toric ring and housing at all. We need to get the toric ring even all the way around the housing.
Using a dull flat screwdriver, place blade of screwdriver flat on the high spots of toric ring. Gently push toric ring with blade while working your way around the toric ring. Don't try to bury the toric, just light pushing pressure pushing it inward. Work your way around the toric ring until the gap between toric ring and housing lip is equal all the way around, and that gap should be very little, no gap at all is prefered. That has this half ready for assembly. Once you get both halves of the unit ready, make sure there is no dirt or dust on seal surface and give seal surfaces a very light coat of oil before mating the assemblies. And above all, make sure you keep the face of the seal clean and free of any dirt/grit when mating the cone seal halves.
Cool idea with the wire. Talking about the cat install tool, I went to my local cat house to get that tool years ago, only to be told they'd have to order it on the next tool order in about a month. I then asked it I could borrow theirs for the evening and was told they had them since Cat required them to, but they didn't know where they were since their guys only used blunt screwdrivers.
LoL, that's just all kinds of messed up Mitch.
The shame of it is I've been using blunt screwdrivers for 15 years with good results. :beatsme
Rock on brother. I just posted this thread hoping it helps others who are not familiar with the tricks to these things. If someone else has ideas that help, please let us know.
Ahh! The grand master continues assisting many on the road to enlightenment Good to see you are always thinking of new project threads willie! Since you were performing this trick with no protection, I'm amazed to see you wearing a ring while working. I stopped wearing mine not long after I was married as it once, nearly ripped my finger off during a heavy lift, & again, when it shorted to earth when working around some electrics. This thread could also pass for "Zip Tie Tips & Tricks" Keep up the good work ol' timer :tong
I must yield to the great Case wrench bender alrman. :notworthy Too hot in the southern states in summer to wear my favorite nitrile gloves, sweat fills the gloves with water. As for the project threads, would love to do more, but this rental bizz keeps me busy with the short get it fixed and get it going thing, I hate everything being emergency 911 type of repairs, but alas, it's my world for now. And the ring, it's the only jewelry I wear, no wrist watch, no nose ring, no neck chain, nothing, just the band. Yes, I've snagged it to the point of stressing the finger, considered tossing it, but being with the same spouse for 32 yrs in Sept, I choose to make this small risk and sacrifice for her.
Odd, I always figured you for a nose ring guy...
Thanks wilie, I'm sure you will save some poor soul a lot of frusteration!
willie59, that is some great posting, i also have gotten away with cleaning everything with either and working the toric in slowly, however i will try this next time, thanks again.........theironoracle
I have to admit it surprises me how well it works iron O. I fitted the half that goes in the motor housing today. Cleaned everything good, sprayed it down with silicone spray, placed the floating seal on the housing, began pushing. First attempt, got all jacklegged when it popped in. Pulled seal back out, and the silicone was so slippery that it pulled out intact, didn't even have to re-adjust my set up of the seal and toric ring. Second attempt, pop right in square, didn't even have to make any adjustments, a welcome lucky shot.
I'm definitely gonna try the wire method next time, and just save my blunt screwdrivers for final adjustments.
Hi Willie: Any chance I could use one or more of your Duo Cone pics in my text book? Great tips by the way. I used to work for a Cat dealer in Toronto and starting out I always tried to use the proper installers (fiberglass ring) but found them very tedious and not real effective. Blunt screwdriver usually finished the job. Thanks, Scott
Sure, wouldn't bother me a bit. :drinkup BTW, one of the nice things about the zip ties, after you slip them off of the cone seal you just installed, you can slip them right onto the mating cone seal and reuse them, no need to fit new zip tie for the next seal install.
I too, am among the blunt screwdriver users. It was taught to me by a seasoned fella while doing some loader axles. The trick with the wire is pure gold, and I will be sure to use it next time I do set of duo's. Thank you for the tips! Mike
Just the information I was looking for
Welcome to the Forums huey!:drinkup
Willie, I'm not going to argue with your procedure because based on your experience it works, TBH I love the idea of the electrical wire and the tie-wraps. However I think our readers need to be aware of the way a Duo-cone seal functions and the need to use as little lubricant as possible when installing them so that the installed seal works as designed. That's why the procedure calls for everything to be clinically clean and to use alcohol as a wetting agent to install the 2 halves of the seal. I've had issues with seals leaking when the "Ramp" in which the Toric ring sits was not rough enough and the whole shooting match was sliding down the ramp instead of rolling down and springing back under pressure. I've even had cases where we've shotblasted the ramps to roughen them in order to get a seal to grab hold properly. Also in larger wheel seals the Toric Rings have to resist turning in the housing which will result in the rings burning up and hardening and of course a leaking seal. Let's take a look at a diagram of a typical seal. First what the numbers & letters mean: - (A) Stationary side (B) Rotating side (C) Axis of rotation (1) Gap (2) Housing ramp (3) Seal ramp (4) Sealing surface (5) Bevel (6) Metal seal ring (7) Toric ring (8) Stationary Side Housing The 2 most critical parts for the seal to function as designed is that each Toric Ring (7) should "grab hold of" its respective Housing Ramp (2) and Seal Ramp (3) so that when the 2 halves of the seal are mated up the compression (shown by the 2 large grey arrows) put on the 2 metal Seal Rings (6) causes the Toric Rings to rotate as shown by the arrows. The rotation is what generates the "Spring force" and thus keeps the two metal seal rings together so the seal doesn't leak..........or at least it's not supposed to. If the Toric Rings tend to slide down the ramps instead of grabbing hold and rotating as they should then the likelihood is that you'll end up with a "leaker".
Point taken Nige, and I certainly don't disagree, the proper procedure is no "slick" lubricant whatsoever, and a suitable wetting agent being alcohol. I'm certainly no expert on these units, an experienced novice at best, but in my experience the trick with doing these things proper is to have the proper tools, which most folks don't have, including me. I've tried installing these things with alcohol (minus the proper tools/equipment) and it always resulted in a cussfest or an improperly fitted toric ring. Knowing an oil based lube is frowned upon when fitting them, that's when I tried a very light spray of spray silicone lube because it dries, doesn't stay wet. Since then, I've popped a number of them in, the toric is fitted straight and clean, and I always push on the face of the seal to make sure the toric rolls properly. Now I admit, one day one of these my bite me in the arse for doing it this way, but so far I haven't had a boomerang come back to me. But then, maybe it's simply God having mercy on me for being such a knuckle dragger. :drinkup
I've actually had good luck with using the alcohol and just careful use of fingers. Just did the rear axle on a 980Glast week and so far no puddles under it! I'm just very careful to have the oring nice and even and the steel ring the same hight when done. I personally never had a problem with the orings slipping but we did have a Cat ADT that the dealer said the wheel seals were leaking because of the oring surface was too smooth. This was a new to us truck that they just sold so they ate the cost of removing and sand blasting like Nige mentioned. We only had the truck here for a few weeks five years ago so I have no idea if the problem was solved. Maybe willie's problem is where he is applying the achohol, it's to go on the oring NOT in you coffee cup!
KSH, first time I came across a Duo-Cone ramp that was too slick was on a 994 wheel spindle. The final drive came off 3 times before we twigged that the ramp surface on the spindle wasn't rough enough and that the complete Toric Ring/Metal seal ring assembly on one side of the seal was sliding down the ramp rather than rolling. Those are the biggest Duo-cones I've ever seen, even bigger than a 797, IIRC the larger seal on that assembly is something like 30" in diameter - try getting that into place with a couple of blunt screwdrivers .........
I had a cat 345bl that the final drive was leaking behind the ring, finish was smooth as glass, had to roughen it up to get it to hold, I've also had 973 finals with the lip worn off, laid them down and assembled them, we took it real slow and it sucked be we got it. I wish I took pictures of that one.
How many times do we all say that..? In this day & age with every smart phone coming with a good-quality camera there's really no reason not to. I'm as guilty as everyone else though, too busy focusing on the job in hand to take photos for posterity.
Years ago I heard of using WD-40 to install motorcycle grips, helps them slip on and then they lock on like they were glued. I have since used it to install floating seals with success, but I have no way of knowing if there are any drawbacks to using it. If they failed, I never heard about it, lol.
Its very common for me to find the lip worn off that holds the ring in the housing, perhapse I should not say but I just take my ball ended hammer and whack away around the location until I have made a grip area to retain the ring, I always fit the rings dry using a 1/4" long socket extension bar, I check them for uniform depth on the ring then stuff things together, I would have done best described as at least 500 duo-cone seal sets without any leaks that I know of, I do have the correct tooling for a few tractors (D6-D8) but its never used as its a lot of faffing about for something that is most often simple to do, the bit of flex (wire) trick looks neat and worth keeping in the head for that tricky 1, but so far I have not struggled with this fitment. tctractors
Damn, he's got me pegged! :lmao I would like to thank everyone that's posted information at this thread, it's one of the things that makes HEF a great resource. :drinkup
I hope to be using these tips on my first duo-cone install next week. This will help a lot! I understood the theory behind the seal when I took them apart but this thread "seals" it. Thanks, Twisted
"Thweeeet!!" Penalty for illegal use of bad puns! :ban
Hey Nige: Fantastic explanation of how a Duo Cone seal actually works! I never really thought right through as to the purpose of the toric ring. When working for the Cat dealer I used to try and use the installer tool (fiberglass ring) but usually ended up using the dull screwdriver method to finish it off. If I ever have to do one of these again I'll be trying the wire/zip tie method. Thanks Willie!
Hey Nige: Is that a Cat illustration?
It is indeed - from a document that ought to be entitled "Everything You wanted to know about Duo-Cone Seals but were afraid to Ask". Most people don't even know it exists...........
Is there a Media number for it that I could locate on SIS?
KS, are you preparing for the new D9?
Overworked, SHUT YOUR MOUTH! If I have to get that deep into it I'm jumping on I-81 and come looking for you!
I like topics like these cause it one of the subjects that everyone has an opinion on and different methods that work. I have always used brake-kleen and never had one come back yet. One of the best techs I ever worked with and had done it for 20 + years used WD-40 and claimed to never have issues. I'm not that brave even in a pinch. I never have alcohol so brake-kleen does just fine and if no installer available then a large tipped flat blade screw driver (carefully) works. I developed a habit of then checking the seal depths after I install with a micrometer and ensuring it is an even depth. Any one who was around the earlier Cat 740's in cold weather will have done their fair share as almost every wheel's duo-cone leaked (many times) and Cat went through about a half dozen change ups before fixing the issue
I recall at one time the seals cam with a red plastic depth gauge that had a max and min. step in them. We have an older gallon jug of Midland Air line antifreeze that I have been using for a while. Another idea would be some gas-line antifreeze, Dry gas.
I'm installing the duo-cone seals on my outer final drive cases. It seals the case to the sprocket. Anyway the "groove" in the case is pretty much gone. I wire brushed all of the corrosion out and cleaned them up really good and grabbed the new seals for installation. They basically just set in the groove. slight finger pressure is all it took to pop them in. They are loose enough that I don't trust them to stay in place while I'm handling the cases from the shop where I'm doing the work to the dozer location. I'm going to assume that once installed the halves will put enough pressure on the O-rings to seal them to the case but I don't want to be wrong. Any suggestions before I go for it? Thanks
Hi there, I have had this problem on a D8 R. I went round the outter edge of the lip with a center punch. and made a tiny little burr. The burr held the toric ring in place to get it put together.
That answers my question. After a good cleaning there wasn't much left to hold the seal in place but it will hold enough to get it leveled and installed. Thanks
Not to revive an old thread but this one just saved me a few hundred bucks by not buying a gold plated installer from CAT. Thank you Willie, and thanks to Nige for the good explanation of the duo cone concept. I used a glazing knife/wedge thing instead of screwdrivers though.