I have a Deere tech resident for the construction company I work for. He was tied up. I called in as I needed another guy for a down machine. Took almost 20 hours and two phone calls to get the dispatcher to talk to me. Sent a tech by late last night for a dozer that the blade will not turn. Turned one way and stopped. Tech shows up, swipes the blade side to side and says its done. So me being a fairly experienced guy ask what was wrong. "it works fine, nothing is wrong with it." Ok so I ask how it did in the dirt. No drift on any of the three cylinders? Blade held when digging? "I didn't put it in the dirt. You didn't say it was drifting." The first thing I learned in trouble shooting was to verify the complaint after speaking with the operator. I guess its me expecting too much out of a dealership tech. Maybe the guy was in a hurry to go home. I could tell he was getting angry at questioning his method but, I want to make damn sure at 7am today I don't have to make the same phone call. I'm busy, my crews are busy. Why not do it right the first time?!:Banghead
Had the same thing happen more than once.Hey this !@#$%^ dozer still doesn't work why didn't you get it fixed!!!!!! It's not you it's the whole country :usanow days nobody takes pride in their work just not making enough money wheres my raise. that's why when I have to call out a dealer part's replacer I try to have ether me or one of my guys stay with them till they leave because they are on to the next one and most likely will never see your machine again and don't care just throw part's at it and hope for the best. most of the time we are standing their and telling them what to do and ( not to do) they end up screwing it up any way and then finally stand there looking stupid if you are lucky they will listen then till next time. Make you wonder how many times they get paid for this same B.S. buy there good trusting customer's .Guess thats why no salesmen call on me and living at those good customer's office's :beatsme
It seem's the thing for dealers to do is show up over bill you then if you raise enough hell they will cut a little of the bill.
I think that happens to everyone - it doesn't do it when the mechanic is there. Recently a friend of mine was having a problem with a S300 Bobcat. It would die unexpectedly while operating it which progressed into cranking and then immediately shutting off. He had the mechanic out 3 times in which the machine ran perfectly but all the mechanic did was crank it up and let it run. After replacing the very expensive key pad the machine was still doing it. Finally figured out it was the connection on the fuel pump solenoid.
Intermittent are the worst ones I ever had to work on. Had a 988H that would not crank over to start. Checked several things with no luck. As at that time we were running two ten hour shifts on a major project and this was the only loader we had big enough to load haul trucks from the face in the quarry I had to do something. I by-passed the wiring to the relay for the starter solenoid and installed a remote starter switch so operator could reach out the window and push a button to start loader. This was one of the few operators I would trust to start it that way with safety systems by-passed. Anyhow a couple days latter we had time to shut down the loader and have the Cat dealer guy come out to look at it. As I knew he was coming right after noon I brought the loader in the shop and removed the temporary starter button. Wouldn't you know when he got there only once out of maybe 50 time starting the machine did it fail to crank over as soon as key was turned. As of last April when I retired around four years after this problem that loader was still starting just fine
Well- we all know a good mechanic has that special aura around him or her. Machines are just afraid to act up in their presence. Now- as soon as the operator (you know, the guy trying to earn a living) is alone with the machine, you know what happens. Or doesn't happen actually. Never underestimate the value of a good mechanic. Even if he only has to stand by and just touch it. :notworthy
It is because the tech or mechanics are pressed for time, and their managers watch the clock. Doing a good job takes time and when companies are trying to "maximize shareholder value" or in other words, steal from the customer, service goes by the wayside. Now, how long does it really take to train a good mechanic? And once you have him trained, do you really want him spending most of his time driving around? Howard
I could go on a long times on the "Laying on of hands" repairs I had done! One example was when I got a call from one of our sister quarries about 1.5 hours drive away. Seems the 8V-71 Detroit was making some bad noise. I know to some people a perfectly good Detroit makes bad noise. Anyhow after driving the 1.5 hours I get there and the plant mechanic is busy and I was told to go over and check it out while I waited for him to finish what he was doing. Give it a quick looking over and fluids check then cranked it up. Listened real close all around the engine. It sounded like a 8V-71 running an IR compressor on a drill rig to me. All the time thinking I'm just not listening close enough. Finally their mechanic comes over and asks: "What was the problem? It sounds good now!" I explain all I did was push the starter button and cranked it up. We stood around BSing for awhile and he said well if it does it again he'd give me a call. Never heard again about a problem with that one.:beatsme
I used to get a lot of those calls too Hanson, usually on a Friday.. Only to find the operator sitting/standing next to the machine smoking cigs.. and when I pulled up and asked what the problem is.. I'd get.. nothing really.. just wanted to go home early.. tell the boss you have to order parts and they wont be in till Monday or Tuesday.. that way I can get a long weekend.. WHAT!!!??? Like I had nothing better to do than drive 200 miles 1 way..??? At 110.00 /hr and 2.50/mile MY BOSS would make up a story as to what was wrong with the machine, just to justify the bill.. I hated Friday service calls!!
Was called out on a Komatsu excavator that the operator said would be running fine and all of sudden the engine would just die down and then pick backup. He tried showing me the problem and nothing ever happened. We pitched the thing up on its side, walked it up and down hills, bounced it around and it never missed a beat. I refused to leave because one of the other field guys had been out and just threw up his hands and left without saying anything to the operator. I hung around for three hours trying to make the problem happen and was getting close to overtime billing so started to put things away. Talked to the guy for a couple of minutes and told him to walk the machine up the hill to where he was working and if he made it I would just pull away. He got about thirty feet up the hill when it happened and I heard the engine slow down like someone just turned the throttle dial down. The op turned around and came right over. I figured it had to be a bare wire somewhere made a short and sure enough I found it under the muffler where a hole had developed and exhaust burned the insulation away. A piece of tin and some tape fixed the issue in a hurry. I couldn't tell if the operator was more pleased that the problem was fixed or that someone else was there to confirm that there actually was a problem. I agree that confirming a problem should be the first part of any troubleshooting procedure. What I have run into so many times though is the problem is not obvious and the operator is put somewhere else and doesn't get to describe it to you. You get the second hand smoke from a boss that does't know which end of the excavator is forward.
During my early work career, I would meet the snap on truck at a friend's auto electric business, on friday nights. Sometimes if the old man was out on the road, and his son was under a car, I would pick up the phone, to save them some trouble. One old farmer whom I knew, was almost deaf, and would shout into the phone LEWISH, DIS IS KINDER, WILL YOU COME OUT AND TETCH MY TRACTOR??? I relayed the message, as the old man walked in the door (at the same volume) He just kinda smiled and said I'll catch him on the way home.. It was the same old thing, points or electrical gremlins in an old farmall tractor. That was back in the good ole days where some people worked for a living, steada just running up a bill, replacin parts... Now, few shops will send anyone on the road, round here, want you to bring it in to the shop.
I formed the opinion many years ago that machines are "not" unintelligent, they truly are iron "horses" and sometimes just as ornery. Early last week I went to a site to check a Genie telehandler that reportedly would go in reverse but not in forward. That being the case they parked the machine, unusable obviously. I showed up, started it up, worked perfect, couldn't get it to stumble. Since I'm there I look the machine over looking for possible faults, clean as a whistle. I stayed on the site another hour just to make sure it was good while operator put it to work. That was now two weeks ago and the phone hasn't rang since. I dislike gremlins.
Machines, being made of the same magic dust as all things in this universe and running on dinosaur juice and electrons (or petrified plants and water in the case of steam) have a soul of some kind and are influenced by the essence in all of us. Sometimes they just want some attention (need a hug?) and someone that loves machinery like a good seasoned mechanic, can lay a hand on, say some soothing words and all is right with the world. I tend to believe though that all the electronics in newer machines tends to become a barrier to the machine's spirit in some way, it's just not the same. Laugh if you will
I completely agree with you guys. I have laid hands many a time and never looked back. My problem is I was trained with the 7 step trouble shooting procedure. That being said in my later years, I would go above and beyond to make sure my customer was good for another days work. I would not just throw a part and take off. Part #2 Sent my seasoned resident out as he free'd up. Left blade cylinder in a twin cylinder system is blown. Maybe the jerk on the end of this line knows what he is talking about. Same thing last week. Ok guys, I put in 16 years at a dealership. I pretty well know my way around machines. I call another store as I have a machine in another town. Tell them they need to take a steering cylinder, ball joint, and rear axle spindle seals. Tech shows up Monday to look at machine. Comes back Friday with parts. Call back Monday the following week. Seals? No will order and be back Tuesday. Call Wednesday, yep its done. Friday my driver heads out to pick up the loaner. First machine is still leaking oil. Call back. Hey whats with the rear. "We forgot!" This does happen, I am not to worried about a job lost in the cracks as I had a loaner. What hacks me off, is that I told the first guy on Thursday before the first tech got there to order all my parts. Everything should have been in hand then. Now I am two weeks in to a repair that could have been done in 4 work days!
In most cases the operator knew the machine and noises fairly well, but you do get the ones that jump from machine to machine. I tried to when ever possible to get the operator to "display the fault" which agreed sometimes took time with the niggle wire faults. I went to a Komatsu PC 300 -6 that was "loosing power" the operator was absent on turning up. The machine was used to load log trucks so pressure was on! I started and ran the machine, moved logs around ok. Got off checked air filter, oil levels and replaced fuel filter (always fuel issues in forests) the operator turned up and I asked him to run the machine and with in 20 seconds it was missing and generally sounding like a fuel issue. ?? I got up into the cab and started and ran the machine ... no problems, ran fine, then the operator asked what did I do? nothing! he jumped in and same thing it was running like a dog. I got up in there with him then and said ok what do you do that I don't. Show me. Turn the key and throttle knob to full! and yep there's the fault! ... I was only running the machine on position 8 not full. There was bad contacts when you turned the switch to full noise! I went back to the same machine about a month later after fitting a new throttle dial for a hydraulic leak. No one could see where the oil was coming from, the center was soaked, so (not safe or standard procedure) I sat on engine compartment while the operator went through all the functions, we found it, a leaking pin hole next to a crimp. My touch the machine to fix was on a Cat 322C (another log loader) owner called me on Sunday and I went right up as he was stuck on the access road. Machine wouldn't slew. I was prepared to dismantle the slew brake but said to the owner start it up and see what she does. I had my hand on one of the hoses to slew and surprise surprise it slewed left and right no problem. I said I would hang around for a while and he went up and shoveled for around an hour. Happy man. He asked what I did to fix it and had to say all I did was touch it! I didn't charge for my time as I didn't fix the problem, that's what I did for my customers, he then bought a new Cat 329 from us after that, and I hear he now has a 336 processor
LoL, something OSHA here in the USA would certainly have a conniption fit over, but all of us seasoned wrench benders have been know to do this.
Add in todays modern book-smart manager who thinks every problem is by-the-book with a 'if this, then it must be that' mentality, or, it is intermittant, thinks the fault is only caused by a single possibility. It gets frustrating. Doing it right doesn't mean throwing parts at it as fast as you can until it magically begins to work again. Alex.
I worked as a maintenance tech in a large factory for 8 years and as a maintenance supervisor at another place for 8 more. I repaired everything from laser cutters to press brakes to forklifts. I devised a good process to troubleshooting the equipment. The operator is the most familiar with the machine so first thing is ask them what happened. Second is to not believe a word they said. Amazing how many repairs I did because of sabotage, either the operator or a pist off coworker. As I climbed the ladder and eventually had my own maintenance crew, I tried to teach the techniques of good troubleshooting to my guys. I learned that some would pick it up and some should be working on an assembly line. Not every mechanic is a good mechanic. It can be a complicated process and some just cannot handle thinking along more than one line at a time.
Estimates, labor unilization, flat rate books are hard to pin down. Parts costs are easy. Time to replace parts is fixed. Complex troubleshooting is hard. How parts fail is much more difficuct job. And to do a good FMAEC, Failure Mode and Effect and Criticality Analysis is expensive and time consuming and is often not available to the field crew. While I maintain to aircraft standards (long story here, spent way too many years playing with high dollar aircraft), it is normally not required on heavy equipment. The fleet I maintain is spread over many states and supports mainly an administrative mission. My personal shop supports everything from liter class motorcycle to heavy diesel equipment. So my viewpoint is a bit different than many on this forum. And then there is my professional duties keeping process plants properly operating across 1,500 miles and a dozen states. My field guys are tremendous and I could not operate without them. While I personally maintain a dozen light vechiles, one medium and one heavy, my entire crew engages a tremendous industrial base. Howard
Back before everything got computerized I taught my guys a few rules: 1) Start with the simple easy stuff. Batteries, fuses, switches, ground straps, etc. 2) When troubleshooting, work from cheap to spendy. 3) Unless you're SURE, don't take it apart! 4) Just because it's new doesn't mean it's not defective. 5) Before starting to work on a machine, ask the operator questions until he's angry and then ask two more... you might begin to understand what the problem actually is! There were more but I think I killed those brain cells, lol
Some of you guys might be amazed or terrified at plant maintenance for a large factory. I worked briefly as a reliability engineer in a corn processing plant. The levels of scrutiny for any kind of break down or repair were amazing. Every work order and repair was logged in a database. There were 3 full time people who maintained that database and knew how to access it to get history and reports for everything in the plant. Most machines were vibration tested monthly. Once they reached a know level, bearings or whatever were replaced. Then there was the parts inventory. The place I worked had $20 million in spare parts inventory in a climate controlled warehouse. You can't afford to have two identical plants so you can just switch backup on when the main goes down. So, you have be able to get the main running ASAP. We had 5 reliability/maintenance engineers, an engineering manager, a planner, maintenance supervisor, 15 full time company day shift mechanics, 5 company swing shift mechanics, and about the same number of contractors. Then there were the welders, electricians, carpenters, millwrights, etc. Lot's of layers.
LAN, I love your post #20.!!! KISS.. Quick story.. I was out on a service call when this piece came in.. NO START.. cranked but no start.. Foreman says, pull the pump.. Standar oper. proc. for an idiot.. The pump is pulled, the injectors are pulled.. inj. tested good.. pump is torn down, nothing evident.. put in a kit and calibrate.. Everything goes back on.. STILL wont start.. I get back from a 2 day road trip and see 3 "mechanics" standing around this machine.. I walk over and say whats the problem.. {see above** I say give me a second.. I put a meter on the shut-off solenoid and theres no voltage.. a broken wire..!!! OBVIOUSLY IN SIGHT OF THE CONNECTION to the injection pump..!! 750.00 for the pump O/H... 100.00 each for the injectors.. + the labor.. and I fixed the problem w/ a 5 cent butt connector.. Hence the saying.. Keep it simple, stupid..
And some where in that I would have look at any recent work done on it. Did someone install a new transmission pump and forget to take the plug out of the suction port? Hate to say how I know about that! Lucky for me I was working alone and realized what had happened in a couple minutes. Problem was it was the suction line on a 988 Cat 87A vintage. Anyone who has had a suction line off that pump knows they are not fun. But at least every thing was nice and clean from the install so I had it apart and back together before anyone showed up to ask how the job was coming! And yes I did tell Sam the plant mechanic and we had a good laugh over it! He was just happy to get the machine back online.
Lan, +1, post 20!
Reminds me of a instance a coupla years ago, I used to wait for the snap on truck, at a friends auto electric shop. He had sold a guy a battery, a couple days prior. Guy shows up with the chevy on a hook, on a tow truck, demanding his money back, or fix his car... We went over, took a look, and I almost lost it, stifling a laugh. Guy had connected the top terminal battery, right over the shrink wrapped battery posts. I just had to walk away, and pop a beer. We both had a real hearty laugh after he had disconnected the terminals, removed the shrink wrap from the posts, and reconnected the terminals...
Did the company name have three initials in it only? Just sounds like them to me...
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everything my techs do. That day it just didn't sit well as it was not fully troubleshot. I could tell by the way he answered the question that A. I was hacking him off and B I was right, He did a half a@@ed job and was busted. I was not trying to beat the guy up, I just wanted to not have to send another guy on another day down to fix it.
Something that annoys me is when is a young mechanic supposed to learn how to operate a machine properly? When you do your apprenticeship you get taught how to move machines around but never really how to operate in a production environment. And who is going to pay for it. Say you are working for the dealer and get sent out to a machine. You look at the problem and hopefully get an understanding of what is going on pretty quick. But what if its one of these intermittant problems that comes and goes. Is the dirt boss or whoever is in charge going to let a relatively inexperienced operator out onto their jobsite to give the machine a proper test? Who pays for the mechanic to drive around for maybe half a day? The Service advisor wants him to hurry up and get to the next job and the dirt boss wants the machine fixed. Unfortunately parts just end up getting thrown at problems and fingers are crossed. Its just one of the problems when everyone wants things done yesterday but dont want to spend money training people properly.