Engine: John Deere 4045 HF285 HPCR Serial Number: CD4045L268283 Machine: Menzi Muck A91F 4x4 sensor The symptoms that I am having with this machine is it is going through more and more coolant every day and getting worse. I just finished a job so I could get it back to the shop. I don't want to continue running it as is. Last top off of coolant, it went through about a gallon in 5 hours or less and started the low coolant alarm again. The engine seems to run fine but it has a lot of steamy blow-by that is obviously, mostly, water vapor. I'm now starting to get condensation on the oil fill cap and dip stick after blowing through maybe 4+ gallons or so of coolant over the past several months. I had this engine out of the machine already a couple years ago after I got it. After diagnosing that the previous owner had the injection pump timing off by a tooth and it had a worn out camshaft, I pulled the engine and went through it. I installed a new gasket set, new camshaft, new fuel injection pump, water pump, hoses, belt and some sensors. After that, it has run great and it still runs well but there is the blow by problem and that must be addressed. The blow by gets worse after the machine heats up to operating temp and it is especially noticeable in colder temps with the fast evaporating steam. Sometimes, all a once, it will start belching a heavy steam cycle while idling. It is not a consistent rate of effluent at all times - it sometimes varies. It's my opinion that it is likely the water/oil cooler gaskets that could be causing this issue. Head gaskets don't seem to be the issue in my opinion, but that could be wrong. I'm not getting any bubbling in the radiator and a check for exhaust gases in the radiator was negative. The engine had a fresh rebuild right before I took possession of it as evidenced by new bearings and liners that looked like they had less than 50 hours on them, if that much. Looks like it had a full kit but they missed the worn out camshaft and did not get the timing right during re-assembly. I've got the factory manual for the PowerTech engines and I used that to make sure my assembly torques were correct and that the right procedures were followed. I'm more operator than I am mechanic. I'm sure many of you guys out there have encountered these problems before. I'm looking for advice to get the diagnosis right before I start doing more work than necessary. Dropping V8's in my Chevy Vega and Jeep CJ-7 was a breeze compared to the C-hair allowances on the Menzi. I do NOT want to pull this engine again if I can avoid it. These machines are built tight and compact and are not easy to work on. I would rather take the time to get the diagnosis correct first. Let me know what other information you might need if you can be of help. Thanks!
Without seeing a cutaway view of the engine, my initial guess would be possibly a scored and/or cracked liner down low, possibly caused by a rolled o-ring during assembly. Low enough to prevent combustion gases from getting into the water jacket. I'm sure that's wrong, but I think you're going to have to pull the head no matter what. Have you pressurized the cooling system yet? Might have to drop the oil, pull the injectors, and put 25 psi on the cooling system and see where your coolant ends up.
I'm afraid you're going to be pulling that engine my friend.
Apart from the oil cooler another place water can enter the oil is via the water pump. A damaged seal could be the cause.
If the oil pan can be removed-remove it first then pressurize the cooling system. If its using that much coolant, there's going to be a steady dribble on the floor at only 12 psi. Blow-by is normally cylinder related. Bar it over while you have the pressure tester on it.
Steam is never good. If you are not gaining excessive pressure in the cooling system and the coolant isn’t being displaced by compression bubbles, then your loss isn’t in the realm of the combustion area of the engine during the compression stroke. That would mean no crack or gasket problem that compressed air can reach. Steam means that coolant is being burned in a cylinder creating the steam in which most of it will exit the exhaust, but some travels through the ring gaps……creating the condensation. What I have seen before is a crack inside the intake valve port. During the intake stroke, when the intake valve is open, it can draw small amounts of coolant into the cylinder. During the compression stroke, the valve is closed which seals the cylinder for compression and that compression never reaches the crack. It creates steam but nothing ever enters the cooling system. If you don’t want to pull the engine, I would remove the fuel injectors, run each cylinder to the bottom of the intake stroke, run a bore scope through each hole, and pressurize the system. Something should show somewhere.
Also to add to Vetech's-when setting in a off/static, it can also leak enough under psi it will hydrolock. My guess crack between seats. IMO
That's why I suggested pulling injectors before pressurizing.
And mine is just pull pan-it's the simplest first step. IMO If nothing then move on to next area.
That sure doesn't look fun if you have to pull the engine.
From what I can see, I'm not sure the oil pan can be removed with the engine sitting in there........unless that is a bolt on panel underneath it
such is unfortunately the case in a lot of equipment.
Sounds like an egr cooler issue, can't tell if it's even got one, but that freestanding picture looks like that coolant inlet is connected to the exhaust. Any connection there?
Thanks for all of the replies, suggestions and ideas. My plan is to do the pressure test on the cooling system. I will try that after the engine is warmed up and while running to see if there is a change in the exhaust color or moisture content of the exhaust first. I have not noted any steam from the exhaust to this point, only from the crank vent tube (no EGR on this engine) and mostly noticeable after the engine is up to operating temperature. Just moisture from the vent tube leads me to believe that maybe it's not a leak into the combustion chamber. Coolant dripping into hot crank oil or onto a hot internal block location would be a source of steam at operating temperatures so water pump, sleeves, oil cooler or something along those lines would make logical sense...if I'm that lucky. If there is a change in exhaust and/or operating characteristic, time to pull injectors and watch the bores for ingress of coolant. I will do my best to determine the leak long before I must pull a head or the entire engine. The panels under the engine can be removed so that I can access the oil pan directly without removing the engine. This should make diagnosis a little easier until I figure out the exact leak location. I can lift or lower the machine, if the engine is running, to make it easier to access what I need to work on but once the engine is down, I can't move it again until it's running again. Menzi Muck: The inventors of hydraulic nightmares that steal your sleep - this is a view into the belly of the beast.
Hydraulic spaghetti - mmmmm...... Hope the hoses are well marked.
The water pump is belt driven so unless the block is cracked or cavitated behind it , I cant see it being the source
The 27th hose from the left, 13th one down, has a slight drip.
Or is it dripping from 1 of the 3 hoses above it? If you had a tiny leak in there could be difficult to figure out where it's from and even harder replacing a hose. I would imagine it would be fun just assembling the machine.
Probably be ahead to scrap it if you blow a hose? Joe H
I can't like this post. That's just too much hose in too small a space.
Now we know what the "Muck" in the name stands for.
Well, the alternative is to hire a bunch of guys on foot with chain saws. Choose your poison I guess. At least be happy it has a 4045 and not some European excuse for an engine installed.
I'm sure it does it does an incredible job. Somewhere I have an old manual from a P&H H418 excavator that the owner gave me. Looking at the hyd. schematics it wasn't far off the Menzi but the hoses were much bigger. Having to change one of them is probably worse.
Honestly kinda remindes me of a Genie boom lift with all the hoses just routed however they felt when building it.
I hated fixing hydraulic leaks on my JLG Lift. Under the tower was a mess of hoses. Inside the main hydraulic compartment was an equal tangled mess of hoses, valve banks, PRVs and dump solenoids haphazardly thrown in. Finding a leak was a pain because every hose would be dripping oil if it sprayed so then someone had to operate the functions while someone else was prodding around to figure out which hose was spraying or dripping. That said, it was leak free when I shipped it down the road this summer.
They're all like that. My OCD hated how everything was just a tangled mess.
Trucks are easy to work on. glad you like those spaghetti messes.
I like looking at trucks and driving trucks. Never really enjoyed working on them though. Seemed like it was only ever brakes, u-joints and clutches. Never much else since we didn't have any diagnostic software or even a code scanner at that company. Got pretty bored there pretty fast. One of the equipment dealers I worked at early on picked up some running repair work for a construction company. All Workstar dump trucks. The moment I opened the hood and only the front 2 cylinders were visible pretty much killed off what little interest I had left in truck repairs.
When working through interior engine hatch, I always dropped the CB mic cord down where I was working. Used the welfare radio as a winch to pull myself out.
I finally diagnosed this engine over the weekend. I dropped the oil pan after I had moved it under the awning, just enough to get the engine warmed up a bit. #4 cylinder is where the leak is with a steady drip under the pressure of a warm coolant system. Once I vented the radiator cap, the leak slowed significantly but it's still dripping. It's bad enough that I really don't want to have to start it again. Too much contamination in the oil. I've got 2 choices - pull the engine or do it in-frame. With the size of the leakage, I'm assuming that it's the sleeve seals or a broken sleeve. I don't see this type of leak as a head condition The situation was getting gradually worse so I'm betting on seals. If I only replace the sleeve seals, it might not be too bad to do it in-frame, but if I'm worried about the one, I'll be worried about the other 3 and when will they let go? It has a fresh kit in it by the looks of the hone marks and the dates on the bearings from what I saw when I last worked on it. But, for $800-$1,200 for a new rebuild kit, I can redo everything and be sure that there are no damaged bearings from the internal coolant leaks. If I go that route, I will likely pull the engine to make my life easier. More to disassemble that way but easier to make sure the job is done right on the internals. Seems to me that the last gasket set that I purchased for the engine was about $500 or so. The entire kit seems reasonable if I get all the bearings, pistons and sleeve on top of the gasket set for close to double. I'm just not looking forward to this repair. I would rather be operating, completing jobs and making the money. But, I've got more work coming up for this machine. Got to get it done....
Won't you just have the head checked to be sure? If you're not sure where the leak is?
Follow up: I wound up pulling the engine out as I thought it was the seals on a liner that was causing the leak. Turns out it was the head gasket after all that was leaking at the LR of the engine near #4. Although it was a lot more work to pull the entire engine, the oil pan was leaking and needed new gasket material anyways and more importantly, the rubber coupler between the flywheel and the pump distribution box was severly dry rotted / cracked and was in serious need of replacement. I did send the head out to a local engine machine shop. He said it took 0.003" to get it in shape. The block was measured at my shop and was within spec according to the Deere shop manual. I tried to order the replacement rubber power transmission insert even though it was a 6 week order time from Germany. The local company that I ordered from could not even bother to call me back with updates after a 2 month wait, not even after 4 attempts. F'em. I found another manufacturer and saved about $500 with a slightly different style coupler that is working just fine. Changed out 2 swing hoses that I would not have been able to access easily with the engine in place. One of the two was already past the first layer of steel braid. This is not the kind of machine you want to blow a hose on in a difficult location. It's cheaper to replace while accessable than take a chance later. Both new hoses were well wrapped in protective spiral sheathing. Once the motor was back in and initial run in was performed, I discovered a control hose leak. Repaired and very thorough cleaning with steam washer throughout the engine and hydraulics bays. On initial run in, there was a considerable amount of steam still coming from the draft tube once the motor was at operating temps. Needless to say, I was more than concerned about this. However, after a few hours of running time, the draft tube has no noticeable blow by and no more steam. What a relief! Looks like a success as far as the coolant into the engine is concerned. New injection components, new camshaft, new engine kit, new flywheel output adapter - most everything in the power department is in good shape. I finished up a small job with the machine yesterday afternoon and the hydraulic pressure to the cutterhead cut out to near nothing as I was finishing up the job. I'm not sure if it was the heat (mid-high 80's) affecting the oil or the valving assemblies. I can alter my pressures and flows to the attachments from 0-45 gpm and 0-5000 psi. I was not getting any changes when I tried to alter the parameters. When this first happened, I refueled and let it cool down a bit. After that, it ran ok for another 30 minutes before noticeably loosing sufficient power to allow operations. So next up is diagnosis of the Powerline system or hydraulic motor to see what is causing those problems. At least I was able to make some money with it.