The exhaust ports are all about equally wet with fuel and soot. The exh pipe at the turbo had about 1/2" of wet soot in it - again I feel sure it is fuel. Injectors removed - no obvious damage. Turbo spin freely - could use a rebuild but I have seen worse slack and running fine. Everyone I have asked have a quick answer until I say " all four at the same time". Most say injectors. Some say timing - which should mean ECM? correct.? Only code is "rail pressure"- no indication if that means high or low since I am not a JD tech with a computer - the code is in the Magnum controller and it has only appeared once during many attempt to start. Compression seems fine, but I am having hell finding an adapter - so all I can do is try to hold a fitting over the injector port by hand - it blow my hand off - violently. Still have not rules out bad rings until I get a good adapter to do compression test, but most experienced mechanics that I talk to say that if it blows my hand off that bad on all four, it is probably OK. Has 11k hours on it. Not sure where to go from here. Test injectors? Again - all four failing at the same time? Can the ECM cause this without throwing codes by the dozens? Can extreme wet stacking cause this? Thanks
Have you proved the injectors are being actuated? Does the cam or crank sensor provide a good waveform?
I know nothing about HPCR but I have seen other machines have all injectors gradually get worse until the customer complains and do it at about the same time since they have all had the same life. And 10k hours seems to be when it happens as well.
I think you are asking if I have tested the sensors? No I have not. From your question, I am guessing that the sensors would have to be tested with a oscilloscope or a function on a JD diagnostics system? I am not a JD dealer so I don't have a JD system. I like learning new things, so if there is a way I can test them I would be glad to listen. I actually have 2 new sensors - the dealer said it had 2 - I just have not put them on yet because I was wanting to do compression test while I had the injectors out - that way I could eliminate compression as the problem. Thanks - keep the help coming.
I would think that for all 4 to get so bad that they are dumping fuel equally , the engine would have coded in someway - say rpms, frequency, etc. and 1 or 2 of the cylinder would look dry. I am not "disputing" your help - just putting some thoughts out there. I think it helps us all. Any thoughts or theories are appreciated
When was the last time it had good load bank to clean it out ?
Definitely send all four injectors to a fuel shop for testing, or the Deere dealer if they have the ability. Since you have them out anyway, eliminate that possibility right off, money well spent, either they test good or you replace them, that way you're working with a known good set. As GregD1 hints at, if this unit is running lightly loaded most of the time, it's bound to cold stack no matter how good the electronics I should think Of course if there's a sensor issue or the like, you may be getting overfuel without any codes, the computer can only follow the map according to the inputs it's getting.
It is my understanding that it was in the field running a single motor on a pump jack (oil well). So, more than likely it was a light load. They said it was out for 2 months - so NO I am sure it was not "burned out" (that is what I call load banking) before some cold stacking (I thought that term was "wet stacking"? I think it is interesting hearing different terms used ). I asked a few generator mechanics if you could wet/cold stack one bad enough that this would happen. What is your experience and thoughts on this? I will now reply to the next post below. Thanks
I agree on the injector testing - plan on doing that as soon as I can prove compression - hate to spend the money if the engine's done. I think I mentioned that I am having hell finding a compression test adapter. I took the one back today that RDO (our local yellow Deere dealer) sold me as the right one - it was close but would not work. They are supposed to try again next week. Do ya'll think there is a chance that if compression is good and I get a known set of good injectors - that I could maybe clean out the cylinders by sucking anything out that I can with the oil vac - then clean the turbo to get all the slime off the exhaust side - and the engine may run!?!? What do think? Thanks
I missed the part about "engine will not run". Ignore my advice about normal injector wear at 10k hours. It is normal to smoke and slobber and need replacement but normally they are still running OK if that happens... I just had a smaller one that did something similar and it turned out the catalyst was plugged completely solid with soot so check for that; it's easy enough to check....
If it is a common rail system and has electronic injectors don`t remove them without marking what cylinder they come out of. They are programmed into the ECU using the numbers on the tag each injector comes with. They are also a pricey little number. We had to replace one a few weeks ago and it was close to $600.00.
Birken - by catalyst" do you mean catalytic converter?
This site takes my keystrokes too slow!!
Does this engine have an egr? Charge air , or air inlet stopped up? The low rail pressure code can be set after a fuel filter change. The ECM will not turn the injectors on until a specified rail pressure is reached. It sounds like multiple issues to me. Low rail pressure can be caused by low supply pressure, worn hpfp , stuck open rail relief, or faulty injector. A single leaking injector will drop the rail pressure across the entire rail.
Yes, or any part of the exhaust pipe, really. On the one I was talking about the intake was wet and sloppy because it would come up on compression, inject fuel, and partially fire, then when the intake valve opened the increased pressure in the cylinder would blow oily soot back into the intake. You could put your hand over the exhaust pipe and nothing was coming out while cranking.
Keystroke normal now so I can reply. Guess I had something slowing my computer down. I don't see any kind of egr now my keystrokes are screwed up again - takes me a minute to type one line!!! Is this site spell checking after every letter or something - I cant reply like this!? Anyone else have this problem on this site? I will try again tomorrow
Let me try again - back to normal now. I don't see an EGR of any kind. I am taking everyones advice. I will check the muffler, but the white/gray rich fuel smoke that came out of it when trying to start was a sign of at least some air flow. Funny that an hour later when I was removing the muffler, every time I opened the flapper, a light vapor, like one of the E cigarettes puts out, would come out. I understand what your saying about the ecm not allowing injection until certain parameters are met, but unfortunately I don't have a computer to look at anything. Is there anyway for an independent mechanic, like me, to get a diagnostics system that would work with these Power Tech engines? I get on my soap box frequently - it is frustrating when every dealer service center we have tried either takes too long, doesn't seem to fix the problem, does poor work, or just charges too much. It is almost like they don't know how to use their own equipment. When you see an invoice where so many things were replaced that did not fix the problem, then something else was replaced, then something else, then something else... Then something finally causes the codes to go a away - it makes you wonder if they know how to diagnose an engine - the bills get so high that soon your at the value of the unit and you wish you had just used that money toward a new one. I don't mean to sound like a !##!??, but most of the techs in these shop these days, I would not attempt to hire because they don't listen so they can learn. So many are young and inexperienced, yet we have to pay $125 or more an hour for them. When I end up meeting some of them, I think they were hired because they are willing to work for low wages so the shop can make more money. I will say that I meet many good ones- young and old - but it is the norm. I could go on and on... I will step down off my soap box now. I had an injection shop theorize that water made it to the rail then the injectors - said he has seen it before. I personally have had many injector problems with pick-ups in my life (although not with water) and don't know why I did not think of that as a possibility to explain "all four". He recommended that I replace the entire fuel system, otherwise I may ruin any new injectors I install. I have cleaned up so much fuel in tanks for this company, even last week, that I cannot remember the gallons. I have seen a lot of water and fungus/algae problems in many units. I would be easy to believe that water made it to the system. I have decided not to spend any more time on this unit until I prove the engine is good - if it is not, it may be scrapped. At this point I am waiting on the compression test adapter(the second one). Once I rule out compression, I will have the injectors tested and go from there. Keep the ideas coming, I really appreciate it. I am about to post about another JD 6068 problem, just FYI
You're preaching to the choir, I had the same complaints thirty years ago. On the other side of the coin, if you're a dealer mechanic, the big names are throwing new systems, new software, new diagnostic tools, and changes, mods, and updates to all of those at the poor service techs faster than any human can absorb and retain. One thing about the electronics, the service manager and the factory expect you to be able to plug in the laptop, do a few screens of checking, read error codes and implement the suggested fix, boom. When you have a wiring issue, connector issue, act of god or physics issue that throws error codes that have absolutely nothing to do with the actual problem, then you have to recognize that and go old school, which these guys never were trained for or had experience in, and at that point the electronics just get in the way of diagnosing the problem. In the early 90's I suggested in more than one meeting where the management team were present along with parts, service, undercarriage (me), PSSR's were all present that the logical answer to screwups and comebacks in the shop was to pair the younger lads with some of the gray haired techs for some "seasoning" on the bigger jobs. My thoughts are that the old fellers will keep a paw on the young pups, keep them slowed down a bit so they're safe and don't miss things, teach them things they think they already know, and feel a lot better about their hard earned knowledge being appreciated. You can bet the older guys would be stepping up their game a bit too, not gonna let some kid show them up at the end of the day!. I was soundly booed out of the meeting by the service managers. Another former job, LOL. Good luck with it.
I have had many with water in fuel. If the injection system is really full of solid water, comparatively rare but it does happen, then it often will put out a bit of light steam vapor when cranking which is the atomized water being injected, which will make you think that it is getting some fuel but not igniting. It even smells a bit like diesel to fool you. But not the solid white putrid clouds of fuel vapor we are all used to when an engine really is injecting fuel but not starting. It is easy enough to check for water by cracking something open and sampling it with your fingers, etc. Especially when it has red dye fuel in it; the red dye does not transfer to water.
Lantraxco - interesting story. I have been in similar situations in some of my previous jobs. I started believing that the "apprentice" system that is required to get some licenses (like master electrician) needs to be used in everything. I think they still do that in Europe - doubt it is perfect, but it would prevent many of the problems we see in this country. Most Americans believe that engineers are idiots, and if you work on engineered products like equipment - you really start believing it - just shows - education is worth nothing without experience - but in this country we believe a diploma(or some other paper) makes every thing right. In my part of the world there are help wanted signs everywhere. May not be good jobs, but they are jobs. Everywhere I go I meet some young person that I have known for years and they say they can't find a "good" job so they are doing nothing or very little - but they are thinking about going back to school. I guess the teachers finally had some success - they taught the kid something that stuck - education is king - more school means your doing the right thing - be yourself - do what you want to do ... BULL! I would have hired a helper years ago, but I have tried too many times with a young person - they say they want to learn then they do otherwise - one of them even quit me to go to ASE school - got out and doesn't like the low pay in auto shops - because he is certified he thinks he should make more - now he is a grunt in the oilfield - doesn't matter - he was no better after school than he was before. You had an excellent idea, for longevity, they should have listened. I just got off the phone with Magnum - I told the guy up front " I have an engine problem so I doubt you can help me" he asked for the SN and then promptly told me I would need to get a John Deere "technician" to look at it. I got on my soap box and politely told him that I have recommended that the owners not buy any more of their machines - just wanted to see what response - he just said something like - "yeah, I know, its hard to get good service at some dealers".!?!??!?! He won't tell anyone what I said, and if he did, it would probably go nowhere. So when they go out of business, everyone will say it was someone elses fault. I notices that now Magnum is owned by Generac - the Walmart of generators - build cheap and throwaway - sell em at northern tool and tractor supply. Don't need technicians to replace the whole thing. WHY WOULD A COMPANY BUILD SOMETHING AND NOT EVEN WANT TO BE ABLE TO WORK ON WHAT THEY BUILD. Without a JD computer, I doubt I will be able to do much. Makes me wonder how long I will be able to keep this company in repair. Sad thing is. This company has pretty strong base the oilfield. Now that times are hard, they are tightening the belt. TierIV gensets are the ones left in the fleet - all the old school genset are gone. Used to be - 15k hours out of a turbo - now its 8K on some. Used to be $450 for turbo rebuild, now 2400 for new turbo - expensed and downtime through the roof, income in the ditch. And when Magnum looks at their sales and wonders what happened to their big customer - they will probably just blame it on the nature of the oil field - when in reality - we will be buying some other brand hoping to have better luck. Damn soap box is getting worn out ...
Birken Thanks for the input. I have looked at the fuel in the filter and it did not seem bad or have water in it - but there are ways that it could have got a slug of water - these are trailer mounted units. I will let you know more as I move forward on this.
In that kind of business, hearing what you're saying about the Tier 4 engines, I would think that buying Tier 3 wherever you could find them and rebuilding them when needed until they were no longer rebuildable would be the smart plan. I have read more than once that some of the equipment rental houses are refusing to buy Tier 4 and are doing this exact thing, they're keeping their Tier 3 stuff until it's no longer viable to run, rather than upgrade every few years.
Give it some ether ,starting fluid, see if it will run ,if not you have air problem,if it does you have fuel problems,
Yair . . . I have been following this thread bemused at what you blokes have to put up with in this electronic age it seems strange that "progress" has spoiled the relative simplicity of a diesel engine. However, being a rough old b*****d I started thinking back to basic principles and came back here about to suggest the original poster try to light it off on petrol (gasoline) fumes . . . if not there is an air/compression problem, if it does obviously it's fuel. John hoffer beat me to it with the ether suggestion. Cheers.
I'm going to throw this out there and see what others have experienced... while I have never tried the gas rag trick, I would think that would work on even a very tired engine with absolutely zero diesel being injected? I have seen diesel engines in good shape that would not pop on starting fluid AT ALL, until some diesel was coming from the injectors. Case in point a Deere engine with Roosamaster pump that had seized and snapped the pump shaft off. Thoughts?
Yair . . . Lantraxco . Dunno mate. An AC HD16 will rattle and knock and try to run on gasoline fumes on a frosty morning . . . new owner didn't know the knob thingy was the shut off and thought it start/stopped on the key . . . I might add the gasoline rag deal to light things off on chilly mornings was almost universal in my world, we had no access to ether. Pretty sure the four cylinder Fergy 35's will do the same. I seem to recall an instance with some fellers trying to start one with the fuel in the "stop" position due to a broken or stuck cable. Cheers.
Currently working on a 3406c that has a no start,ran it on ether as long as i pleased ,that's how i found out i had a fuel problem, rail was stuck in stop position in fuel pump.
Glad to see others on here. I was worried that I had started working on a forum that had very few active members. No offense to the ones that worked with me this far - just " the more the merrier". I am still waiting for the compression test adapter - hopefully it will come in tomorrow. If you look at my other post, you will see that I am in pretty deep with these JD power tech engines. The owner of the company and I are going to work on getting a JD computer. This company owns a generator dealership who has them but operates under a different name. For the last 2 years, I have been working on the generators they started with. Most of them are retired now. I think they plan on refurbishing everything 60kW and up. Now I am going to encourage that direction. They were easy like all of you have said. I became familiar enough with the different engines that I could get through them quick. That made them think I was a good mechanic. Then control panels were no more than meters and gauges - and one relay for the oil pressure, temp and lug door switch for a safety circuit. Looking back, relatively few problems. One of my common statement to people who ask me how I am able to work on generators with little experience, is "most of the problems are related to vibration and electricity, other than that it is basic mechanical diesel engines". NOW - it is seems that it is all engine systems problems - fuel or egr related stuff. I wonder if these generators will make it to the point that connections get loose and hot, or a minor oil leak plug the radiator and cause a overheating issue... As soon as I confirm compression, the injectors are getting tested. I would bet money that they will show "fail" on a test stand. It is my understanding that the injector companies have tight tolerances on their test stands, and an injector that was giving no known problems, will fail if it has had many gallons of fuel run through it. If this goes as I expect, what should I do? Replace the entire fuel system with no further diagnostics , esp a computer scan? Can the computer even show relevant information if the engine is not running? What if the ECM is just plain bad and there is nothing wrong with the fuel system? Incorrect timing could cause the problems I see - true. What about confirming compression then (if good) just cleaning everything up, get the sludge out of the exhaust side, dry the cylinders best I can, put the injectors back in and try to run it. Waste of time? At least if it runs, even poorly, a scan would be more helpful. In my opinion, this would only makes sense if there was such a thing as wet stacking TO THE POINT OF NO COMBUSTION? Thanks again
Well, as mentioned above, service at the dealers (and the manufacturers) is lacking. I call to check on my compression test adapter Friday because it was supposed to be at the dealer (RDO). The parts man I am working with (no complaints at all about him), tracks it, finds out it has not even been shipped even though he had it on 2nd day (should have been an indicator to someone that it was needed), and then finds out that it is not even scheduled to be in until the 28. Thanks for wasting a week John Deere! I cancelled the order. Took an injector to a local machine shop and hopefully will have it by Wed. Another note about the "Dealer", I ordered a part a few weeks ago that I needed ASAP. They said "tomorrow". I asked if they had one at another facility. They said it was at the warehouse. I asked if I could go get it. Yes but they had to add $50 dollars to the order and I would not be able to make it there before they close. I am dealing with the Fort Worth location - the warehouse is somewhere in Dallas. I guess they believe it is too hard to pull a part and have the customer sign a paper in the warehouse after he has paid for a part somewhere else. I am also sure that they think it screws up their schedule to have warehouse employees deal with a will call counter. I would hate for them to have to work a little overtime at the my expense - I would not want the CUSTOMER, who relies on the machine they make a living with, to cost them a minute of overtime if am employee has to stay a little late after filling my order. If I were in the dirt business, the machine downtime cost can be very large. But they seem to think they need to operate like a mail order only store. Oh, yeah, they gave me the "pay $50" option. Once again, I would not recommend having equipment in it with JD engines. Another thing about RDO - about 2 months ago, I was seriously looking at leasing or buying a mid size excavator to start a land clearing business. Asked for the lease manager while I was getting parts one day. Another sale mgr went and spoke with him,(he was in a meeting) and then told me he would call me later. 3 days later I still have not had a phone call. I am in the store getting parts again, and I told the same guy that I never heard from his lease mgr. I said he would have him call me before the day is out. No call - ever. When it come to equipment - I am sure CAT will have the most up time. I call a Cat salesman that Friday, and he was willing to meet me the following Monday, gave me info on the phone, etc. Once again, I could go on and on.
Jesus H.... read the thread....you had a SCV fail (little valve on the front of the high pressure fuel pump, 2 allen screws hold it on, biege wire connector on it)....which cracked your rail relief valve. replace the scv, rail relief and rail pressure sensor.....if you need part numbers let me know
It is not clear from your post what tier engines you are dealing with. All the tierIII and tierIV engines I have encountered had an EGR . The egr valve is probably stuck open and is sending all your intake air out of the exhaust. ( likely where the soot came from). I have run into the same thing you have with lack of experience at the dealerships. I know those experienced dealer techs are out there somewhere in the cosmos , but I have not found them yet in person , but a few of them lurk around here. These engines are not beyond common sense, they are just another engine. Also never discount having more than one problem.
Cutting Edge, will a computer confirm the SCV being bad? or any of the components you mentioned? I don't go to Vegas for a reason. PartsandService - There is no EGR system that I can see.
Please post pictures of the engine and thee soot build up if possible.
Oh ffs..... Yes, a competent deere tech will be able to see that these components have failed.If you know what youre looking at on service advisor and can walk and chew gum at the same time.......well I cant guarantee that down south.. (fyi, im competent....the scv fails,cracks the rail relief,which has a limited lifespan once opened,and they all go to ****) also....fyi, your egr valve is on the intake manifold with that yellow 6 pin connector. all hpcr deeres have an egr
Cutting edge, HPCR Deere marine engine do not have egr, thankfully one less thing I have to keep in the service trucks.
I only read as far as "Fuel Rail pressure. I have had a very similar problem with a 4045 HF275 with the Denso fuel system. remove the pressure sensor and check for contanaments like biofuel ect. If it's a Denso system replace the sensor and from then on and Fuel System Cleaner( NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH INJECTOR CLEANER) every 250 hrs.
Tones first change your fuel filters, are you having any smoke out the exhaust? And what is the fault code that is displayed?
My engine lost power bigtime but was still running. The fault code was "low-high rail pressure". It picked 150 fault codes in 5min running, all the same. We then changed the rail pressure sensor and the problems gone. If the rail pressure is low it may still be pumping fuel through the injectors but not enough to fire it and causing all the wetness. Bear in mind I'm not a JD tech and hate computers on machines. PS Ihad to get a JD tech out to find what was going on. Unless you have an engine with it's own daiagnostics JD will not part with the program
If it does have hpcr there are feed tubes that feed the injectors from the fuel lines through the head. Have the fuel lines or anything maybe taken off or removed for any reason? If the feed tubes weren't installed and injectors torqued properly I have seen feed tubes leak and the fuel would just run down the injector into the cylinder. What kind of condition were the o-rings on the lower portion of the injector?
How did u fix this? My 3406c has this problem
I'd reinstalling injectors and check for power to injectors if you get power to injectors ecm is probably fine. Did you check lift pump pressure I see small engines frequently that get enough fuel to open injectors but not enough to run. On an engine of this size I doubt its compression.... Are you trying to start with exh. Manifold off ? I'm sure that would rule out egr valve even if it's in intake.
I actually just changed transducer and seems like fuel shutoff solenoid isn’t working I hot wired it and engine took off to 2000 rpm