Ok I finally finished the complete engine rebuild on my JD 410 (straight 410). I'm now trying to start it for the first time and it seems like it is blowing air out of the intake and it is making a popping sound out the intake? My timing should be correct, I put paint marks on all the gears before I disassembled them and I lined up all the marks when I put it back together. This engine was torn down to a empty block and everything that went back in was new. I had the head and valves done by a shop so I know everything is good there. Does anyone have any ideas? I have far to much money in this to give up now. Thanks for any help
I have a question.. When u marked the gears for the inj. pump, did u pull the gear with or without the pump drive shaft. I ask this silly question because, It’s easier BUT.. the drive shaft has to b times to the pump and it’s SUPER EASY to get it 180* out of time which would explain ALL YOUR SYMPTOMS.. If u wanna check it.. Pull the pump.. Look at the end of the drive shaft u see a dot on the end.. Now look inside the pump, there’s another dot... THE DOTS HAVE TO MATCH.. dot to dot.. I sure hope that’s all it is... Good luck.
Some of the drive shafts for certain models STAY IN the pump and won’t come out unless forced.. In which case, never mind... If u want to post the pump #, I’d b happy to look it up for u..
Ok that makes perfect sense, after I put all of the timing gears on I worried about getting the injection pump off a half rotation, I thought I had a 50/50 chance of being right and I guess I was wrong . What would be the easiest way to rotate the pump 180°? Thanks so much for the help
Here is a picture of the serial tag. Thank you for your help
The shaft slides right out of the pump, I believe the gear is pressed onto the shaft
The absolute best way is to pull the pump off.. Look at the end of the drive shaft and into the pump & match the dots.. If they are indeed off 180*, just reach inside the pump w a screwdriver and turn the inside of the pump.. DO NOT BUMP THE ENGINE.!!
Thanks, I'll get it pulled apart today and see what it looks like
Ok, today I got the pump pulled and the dots were not lined up. I rotated the pump a half turn and reassembled. The engine is now blowing some black smoke out the exhaust but it is not starting. However it is also blowing back out the intake? I'm wondering about a stuck valve? Although this engine had the head redone with all new valves but the engine sat for 6 months in a 3 walled garden shed with a tarp over it. I'm thinking maybe with the humidity made a valve stick? I'll pull the valve cover off tomorrow and see what it looks like. I also gave this engine a shot of WD-40 and it would not fire on it. Any other ideas would be appreciated. Thanks for your time and trouble
Is it possible u ran/set the valves 180* too.??
There is always a possibility lol I did put paint marks on all the gears and I lined them all up when I went back together so it should be correct. I replaced the camshaft but the gear only goes on one way. Although the engine is blowing back out the intake it is also puffing smoke out the exhaust. I'll check the valves tomorrow and if that's not it then I'll dig deeper. Thanks for the help
Or possibly the wrong crank.?? Here’s hoping for the best..!!
Popping through the intake is because the intake valve on that cylinder isnt sealing.
Burns-Tractor; Do you happen to have a series of videos on YouTube ? Your identical problem with a 410 is on there. The poster has paint marks on the gears like you described. He still doesn't have his running.
I'm sure the crank is the correct one, I matched up numbers when I bought it and I compared the two side by side and they were identical
That's what I'm wondering, perhaps one got a bit of surface rust from setting. I'll pull the valve cover off today and see what I can find
Yes that is me
Years back I rebuilt a tractor engine, a BD144 in a B275 utility tractor. Injector pump timing I did step by step as the manual called for. Two very competent mechanics rechecked my work. Still, it didn't work. I went to the best engine rebuilder in the area. My manual was I&T, his was International Harvester. He walked me through timing procedure, word for word what the manual called for. He didn't believe either manual. It was a big job to move the timing gears, I had to split the tractor again, but I did what Jack told me to do & it worked to move the gear 1 tooth.
I watched the videos. I think the camshaft timing could be off. Weren't there any factory-stamped timing marks on the gears ???? Was #1 cylinder turned up to TDC on the compression stroke when you painted those marks ? If it wasn't when you realigned the IP timing marks that may have created another issue. IMHO! which is worth what you paid for it.
The only timing marks will be on the cam gear and the injection pump gear. None of the others have marks (exception would be crank and balancer shafts if it has those). To properly time the engine #1 has to be TDC with the flywheel pinned. Then a tool (JD254, see below) is used to align the marks on the cam and injection pump to the crankshaft (I have successfully timed with a straight edge as well, but it is easier with the tool).
Thanks for everyone's info and help! I found out the valves were waaay loose, even a couple pushrods had fallen to the side. I have no idea what happened but I have all the valves adjusted properly now and it's no longer blowing back out the intake and it sounds way better. It's now puffing out a little smoke when I crank it but it will not start. I read this interesting article here https://theboatgalley.com/starting-a-diesel-after-rebuild/ And it's about how hard it is to start a rebuilt diesel engine. It says that a rebuilt engine has low compression because the rings are not sealed tight and the only way to set the rings is letting the engine run so it's a catch 22. Eitherway I'll keep trying tomorrow, it's decided to rain today so I can't work on it. I'll keep everyone updated
In my opinion that is bs......but it depends on the rebuild itself. New liners and rings will make a real nice fit and lose little compression other than what is normal through the ring gaps. On the other hand, when you re-ring a worn bore then you can possible have excessive loss. If you did a proper rebuild, the timing is correct, and the fuel system is bled of air..........it sure fire up easily. I am suspicious of your timing at this point.
That article is total BS. Carolyn has her head in her XXX. Here is a quote from her--- "And here’s the rub — until the rings are seated, the engine won’t have sufficient compression to start. Sort of a Catch-22, huh? The engine won’t start until the rings are seated, and the rings won’t seat until the engine has run. The solution: keep trying to start it (in other words, pseudo-run it), using the attempts to slowly seat the rings." Just because it is on the internet doesn't mean its true.
Dick Landon, a good mechanic always squirted a bit of oil in each cylinder of a fresh engine to help seal valves & rings.
You should "bite the bullet"and remove the front cover and redo the timing. Not just the engine gears but also the IP timing. mg2361 already said you have to pin the flywheel at TDC. If you don't do that and you are off a couple of degrees you are screwed again. Hopefully you haven't bent any valves or damaged any pistons already.
This statement is like the old Hutton commercials..........When MG says something, people listen! LOL
The “pin” is usually bolted to the firewall.. or has an oring holding it on.. it looks like a 2” long cap.. U might b able to google it to get a mental picture of it..
This may or may not help you. If #1 piston is TDC on the compression stroke the exhaust valve on # 4 should be almost closed and the intake should be just beginning to open.
Thanks for the info, sorry for not posting, haven't had time lately. I pulled the valve cover off, turned the engine over to tdc and I put the locking pin in the flywheel and the valves are all adjusted properly. I removed the pin out of the flywheel and turned the engine 360° and then slipped the pin back into the flywheel. Again checked valves and they are gapped properly. When I turned the engine over by hand I watched the valves and they were closed during the compression stroke as they should have been. So I am now 100% sure the cam is timed right. I did dump a little bit of oil down each cylinder to help seal up the rings. My valves are fine, when I resembled this engine I slowly turned it over by hand and it turned over smoothing with no sound of the valves touching the pistons. It isn't as easy as removing the front timing cover, I will have to dismantle the whole machine to get that cover off. I will try a few more things before I dismantle everything again. I hooked up a 2nd battery because the engine was cranking slow even with a charger hooked up. It is now spinning faster and it is smoking when it cranks over but it will not fire and it will not fire on WD-40 Thanks again for everyone's help
Is the IP delivering plenty of fuel to the injectors ? I would remove the air filter(s) when spraying WD40 in the air cleaner. Unless you have a way to get it in the manifold downstream from them.
I don't know if I'm getting enough fuel to the injectors, it's kinda hard to know for sure, when I crack open the line on the injector it pulses out fuel, how much fuel should come out? I'm thinking my Kubota (20hp) tractor sprays a bit of fuel when the injector line is loosened. This just seeps out around the fitting. I have the main air filter tube removed and I sprayed the WD-40 straight in the intake manifold. Thanks for the info
WD 40 doesn't contain propane any more
That's funny, I was just talking to my friend that told me to use WD-40 the other day and he said "unless they changed the formula of it" lol, can't wait to tell him. He used to be a semi mechanic in the 90's, I guess things have changed since then
The EPA and CA ruined every chemical. Brake clean used to evaporate quickly and leave zero residue now it smells different and does not dry quick and leaves a film. Even starting fluid is not straight ether anymore. Used to use it to seat beads on stubborn tires. Spray a circle around the bead make a trail away from it and hit it with a match. boom tire seated. Now it just slow burns and you set your new tire on fire.
I would remove #1 cylinder fuel injector and reconnect the pump line to it and observe the spray pattern. At the same time see if it is popping on the compression stroke. According to Wikipedia the propellant in WD-40 is carbon dioxide. FWIW---- starting fluid with 80% ether is available from John Deere dealers. Use it sparingly !!
Ok, I am getting a good amount of fuel to the injectors. I did pull #1 injector and then hooked it back up to the fuel line, I held a piece of cardboard Infront of it and it seems like the injector isn't puting out any fuel at all which explains a lot. So I'm thinking either the injection pump is not puting out enough pressure to set the injector off or the injectors them selves are stuck?
I didn't test to see if it's piping on the compression stroke, I figure I'll sort out no fuel out first
That makes a lot of sense, I tried using starter fluid to seat a stubborn tire and I would just light the tire on fire, I finally gave up on it
No fuel at the injectors ? It could be the pump. Look for the simple things first. Sorry, I gotta ask --- is there plenty of fuel flow to the IP ? If there is, have you bled the all of the air out of the fuel delivery system.
Ok, I pulled out all 4 injectors, hooked them up to the fuel lines and I wasn't getting much fuel, however after cranking it over a few more times with the valve cover off to check the pulse timing the injectors started spraying really good! I set a camera up on slow motion and just checked the footage back on the computer, it looks like the fuel pulseing at the tdc of the exhaust stroke. So I'm assuming the injection pump timing is off 180? Can I just pull the injector pump, rotate it 180 and the put it back in? I have no idea why I'm getting fuel at the injectors now, maybe there was air in the lines? However I was having good fuel pulst to the injectors.
Yes the there is a good flow of fuel to the pump, I made sure the filter and the lines going to the injector pump was all bled out
We got it running, thanks for everyone's help
please share what was wrong, we all learn by knowing what the fix was!!