...Somebody comes up with an Electric SSL! Is this what the future looks like?
Doosan - I mean Bobcat has one too. https://www.bobcat.com/company-info/innovation/all-electric-compact-loader 4 hours of operation before it needs to be charged but I heard it's all the rage.. 4 hours of operation..I'll just leave that lying right there...
that's about 3 hours longer than I can stand to run one, so I see no conflict there
Uncle Sam taught me to be an Electrical Engineer while I wore a uniform for him...and, quite frankly, I don't see how an electrically-powered piece of heavy equipment is going to hold up under our mountainous conditions in the Berkshires. At least when I fill the tank with diesel and turn the key on our CAT 3054T engine -- in sub-zero weather -- I have a pretty good idea about how much work I can expect from the machine...and that's not to mention the fact that we don't have electrical utilities on nearly every parcel of forest land we work on. My apologies to anyone who's all for "green," but give me an old reliable diesel anytime.
That's what all these manufacturers of these electric machines are missing - the ability to charge all these machines on a job site. Take for example the large arena project we recently finished. We had on site at one time - 349FL, 325FL, D5G, CS533E and a 279D In addition there were 4 "Lull's", many warehouse forklifts, 4 CTL's, 3 mini's and 10+ manlifts. The $1M question - how are we all going to charge those machines at the end of the day? There were night shifts often so if the night crew needed the same equipment would the crew need 2 of everything while 1 charges? During the arena project they had to kill the main plant power to the entire complex so they brought in a huge diesel generator from UR on a tractor trailer to power the building. GC used our fuel supplier and the tanker ran daily. I can see the future of all these green "zero emissions" electric machines all lined up to be charged by a big diesel generator on a trailer chugging away making that electricity. Press release reads - "We have a zero emissions job site just don't look at the diesel generator"...
they have a place, a very limited one. I am trying to rent an 09 door crawler electric excavator, and they are book out and sold out for several months. That skid steer is another that has a place. The job is remodeling in the middle of an active nursing home, and there is no way to run an engine in there. I can't bag it well enough to do negative air on the whole space, and I am surrounded by active hallways. Big ducts are out. An electric mini ex is the answer. They want 48K for an 09 machine with very limited usefulness for anything else but remodel digging.
For wright now this stuff is a joke but maybe this will be a step in the wright direction.
My little brother went quite a bit overboard a while back and paid a premium for one of those Dodge (FCA at the time) Challenger Wide Body Redeye Hellcats. Apparently, FCA sold a bunch of these type vehicles and, in fact, Stellantis (the new owner of Dodge) continues to sell these things like hot cakes. Well, Stellantis recently announced that they will discontinue manufacturing the hemi engines for these machines after the 2023 model year. Why? Because they're being taxed to the hilt by the government for producing these gasoline-powered vehicles and are being "encouraged" to retool for electric engines. As I mentioned in the OP, I was an EE as a younger man, so I made a career in the electrical field before returning to my rural roots. Consequently, I've got no truck with electricity...but when I hear folks on the radio and on TV telling anyone who will listen that we're headed to a zero petroleum world -- and that anyone who doesn't go along with that is "deplorable" -- a big red flag goes up for me. I've worked Uncle Sam on active duty, NASA and the DoD (on contract) and, in all of those situations, the electrical work I did was in support of electromechanical devices (mostly military aviation and aerospace)...but it doesn't take a degree of any kind to tell you that metal moving against metal requires lubrication: electrically-powered or not. Similarly, I've got news for all of the folks who believe that "synthetic" lubricants grease the road to a green world. Most synthetic lubricants are based on distilled and refined crude oil . So when I hear some old draft dodger, on satellite radio, spinning a yarn about driving around on a Saturday night with the top down and, all the while, utilizing zero petroleum...well, quite frankly, I feel a bit nauseous. Surely, electrical technologies continue to improve, but, once again, I can't feature how a "battery-powered" piece of heavy equipment is going to replace our old CAT diesels when it comes to long days in remote, mountainous, sub-zero conditions. Hell, even modern "green" trains -- with electric engines -- still require a diesel generator to keep them going. Electrical has it's place, no doubt, but the idea of zero petroleum machinery is still science fiction at this point.
That IHI battery powered excavator goes about 5 hours on a charge. I don't have a problem with that because if I got fellows hand shoveling for me, you can stick a fork in them too at about 4 or 5 hours!
Modern life is depending on the petroleum industry. I'm in agriculture., guess where fertilizer comes from ... My working career was in plastics. We eat petroleum products, we wear petro products, we live in petro products, our health care system depends on petro products, Drs. implant petro products in our bodies, Electricity depends on petro products for insulation, Drugs are sourced from petro products, machinery is lubricated by petro products, to say nothing of petro energy. Yet we as a public listen and follow No-nothing liberal arts graduates to eliminate or hamstring the petro industry. It's worse than the blind leading the blind. It's more like the pied piper leading the rats to their death. Liberals want ill for everyone but themselves.` My only question is : "do they do it out of malice or ignorance?"
Green machine or not, I question how safe it is to run the unit with remote controls? Is there a built in safety distance limit so the operator with the remote cant run over himself? My next issue would be the fact that the operator simply cant "Feel" the operation. Maybe I'm to much old school but Iv had my ass in the seat of a lot of equipment for 50+ years and can "Feel" the machine and how its working. I guess this remote control machine would just take time to learn and get use to operating the same as any equipment? As far as the discussion of "Green". I have issues with the full Buy-in. We will never see a day where ALL Gas and Diesel will be gone. There are simply to many applications that will just have to be done the old Gas and Diesel way.
I don't think anyone thinks there is any way for a total replacement strategy for petroleum. It is the burnable stuff where people are looking for alternatives. I think right now you are seeing the electric iron as a marketing issue more than anything. I will say that it will become more and more an issue as the extremes in weather keep moving around. I believe electric cars will come first because no one in this country is going to give up the freedom to go anywhere they want whenever they want. Cars will drive the the infrastructure toward some measure of supply for a substitute energy source. One thing is sure though. The days for buying a huge horsepower fire breathing dragon that gets five to ten miles per gallon of gas when the driver can't keep his foot off the pedal and only carries two people are going to fade into being the good old days. I do a conference next week and will ask around about the future.
The old CAT equipment we make a living with uses "burnable" diesel...and none of it is exactly "economical," either, so where are the lines drawn? As I mentioned in my last post, Stellantis (Dodge) is essentially being forced to go electric. This doesn't strike me as being a gradual move, by any stretch, so, as per usual, the powers that be are going about this the wrong way. Instead of illustrating a slow move toward alternatives, the folks in DC are attempting to ram this thing down our throats...and that's not the kind of government I wore camouflage to support. To be perfectly honest about this, we should've been making gradual moves starting back when Carter was in the big chair. I clearly recall how OPEC was attempting to strangle us and, closer to home, the lines around the block to buy gasoline. I also recall how Mr. Peanut, a Rickover nuclear power disciple, came out against nuclear power as an alternative to the steam-driven oil-burning power plants that supply the majority of our power today. It all comes down to effective leadership and, obviously, we "ain't" getting much of that these days. The more things are forced, the more resistance there will be...and I think that the most recent ruling by the US Supreme Court exemplifies this very well. By curtailing executive power when it came to forced vaccinations, the big court has shown the US people how this type of dictate runs contrary to the very foundation of our constitutional republic, and thank God they're there to keep balance.
Sounds a little too political for any of us to bother debating. We get to vote and that is it. Unless you want to run for office somewhere, don't waste the wear and tear on the key board.
The question I have is where will the electricity come from? It is a simple question but the answer seems to beyond most people. If everyone on our street had electric cars, 30 houses, each house has 4 to 6 cars ( most have a mobile or suite). The power line up the road will not support the chargers. The services to each house will be taxed, the transformers on the poles will not handle the load. The last house already has a voltage sag at dinner time. If our street is nearing its limit, how will the rest of the grid not fail? Will we have solar panels on every house to charge are cars? More Nuclear, Natural gas, or coal plant’s?
Interior demo and construction is the only place they have a use IMO. Bobcats new electric unit is the new buzz..... We have electric excavators.. Well electric if you plug it into a 50kw generator that runs on diesel... With everybody going electric we better build some new good old fashioned coal fired power plants so people have electricity to charge there cars and equipment on... Taxing our already aging crumbling power grid sounds like a good option... Hell we cant even get customers to under stand you have to plug in scissor lifts at the end of the day... Hope the electricians put in 900 temporary outlets at every job so every one can charge up.. And don't forget to park it as far away as possible so you can.get three one hundred foot 16/3 cords hooked up to charge it..
As I understand things, there's no one forcing anyone to read or write any of this. If anything is too "political" for the sensitive among us, then don't bother adding to a thread that I started. It is clearly a discussion about the future of our business and, sorry, politics does play into it. People freely gave their reactions...and, yes, some of them are reactions to politics, so I did the same in return. That's what an open forum is. I wore a uniform overseas to support your right to speak and/or write what's on your mind, so please don't infringe on mine. You're welcome.
Hey, hey, hey... don't go making any sort of logical points. It's usually impossible just to find enough places or cords to plug in scissor lifts on jobs lol.
The general public has no idea of the scale of energy use. The only experience many people have is their car or lawn mower. They fuel their car with 20 gallons a week. But can't think of a OTR semi-truck filling 200 gallons a day. And most city people don't even have that. I'm a city bred fellow, but engineering educated. I have read on a forum someone saying we should use car batteries to power our homes instead of coal plants. On RV forums, people wonder how they can run their microwave and a/c unit on a battery or a solar cell. The public is energy ignorant and schools, media and political leadership perpetuate that for the "Green energy" agenda. North Carolina mandates renewable energy. My electric bill has a "renewable energy surcharge" Someone is cashing in. And it isn't me.
An electric car reminds me of a funny story recently - Friend of mine who lives in Mobile, AL buys a brand new full electric Volvo SUV. He changes jobs where he still works remotely however the main office is in New Jersey. For orientation he was required to head to the main office in NJ. Not wanting to fly and having a new car he decided to drive.. The trip was documented on FB. Amongst the various site seeing pics were at first a pic or two of "Joe" charging his car. Well the site seeing pics dwindled and more and more "I'm charging this car" pics documented the trip until there was a pic of "Joe" trading in his electric Volvo for a good ol' gas burning BMW X5 in Tennessee. He didn't even wait to get home.. If you want an electric car or electric Bobcat that's fine and Jim Dandy - however I don't and don't force it on me.
I did work for a SMALL company that have 2 semis with tank trailers. They haul to 5 gas stations and several farmers and others. They make 2 trips each 6 days a week and have a guy that runs at night several nights a week. Then alot of times they have others haul if needed. This is a very small part of what fuel is used in a small place were there isnt alot of people. Being envolved in this i cant begin to imagine how much fuel is realy burnt in my county let alone is used in the world each day.
Every thing should run on steam and buffalo chips
and then consider that consumer fuel use is the smallest portion of the pie.... When cruise ships/container ships burn more oil than all the cars in the world combined... And That the US is the #1(country) and the #3(military) consumer of oil... It’s mind boggling to think of the massive impact oil has on our lives. Electric machinery is in the future, and I’m excited to use it when it’s ready, but it’s still early in the game and the tech has a long way to develop.
change comes in fits and starts, one step forward several steps back. I think the electric push is ahead of the real change that has not been invented yet. Fusion and clean atomic energy in the future, IMO.
It doesn't matter what we think. What matters is what the people that we voted for think. What matters to them is getting elected again. I would say most of them have our interests as their primary interests. They are supposed to be listening to experts to gather information in which to make a decision. Unless some of us are aligned with those experts, all we are is a peanut gallery. Basically all we are is noise, until it's time to vote! Stay calm, monitor and adjust.
I like these charts. Really fit my style of thinking. I hope they illustrate the scale of the issues. The scale is the thickness of the lines, not the size of the boxes.
Things could be changed in this country. This would make alot of people mad but if every one didnt drive a 4x4 pickup every were or if every retired person didnt think they need a 4 bedroom 5 bathroom home. My grandpa built a 2 story house and when his last kid moved out he took the upper story off. Now as soon as your kids move out you build on .
When I built my house, my wife and I assessed where we were, and where we thought we would be in the future. We then designed and drew our house plans based on those needs (3 had, 2 bath, 1650 sq ft). We shared our plans with family/friends, and instantly, they tried to push us to build bigger. We built what we drew, and stuck to our plan. Its plenty big for a family of 5, and wont be absurdly large when we are empty nesters in 20 years. Its reasonably energy efficient, and is 100% heated by a renewable source (wood). There are applications where I believe an electric powered machine can really shine. Interior remodel work, stationary work, etc. Places that have sufficient electrical grid available to support them. Remote areas? No. Large earth moving projects? Not realisitic. High usage and mobile machines? Not cost effective or realistic. I do think many auto users would benefit from an electric vehicle, if the electric grid could support the charging. 99% of my wife's driving could easily be done with an electric vehicle that can recharge at home every night. The other 1%, we could figure out how to accommodate, either recharging on the go, or renting a vehicle for those one off trips. In my local area, the power companies are already making massive amounts of infrastructure upgrades, including extending 3 phase power to small towns and rural areas. That will probably be a key part of commuters being able to make the switch to electric.
we are already considering an electric for most travel at the retirement place. Keep an ICE rig for cross country. Heck i can bicycle for much of what I will do
I always drove a pickup or Jeep. My dad had a Buick with a 4 cylinder that needed work he told me i could have it or it would get scraped i didnt want it but figuered i could sell it after i fixed it . The very first time i drove it on a small trip i thought why had i wasted so much money on gas. I need to get another one right now i have a Dakota its a hog for what it is.
Where I live and what I use one of our two cars for, runs to get gas for mower, run to most stores I go to and such, I could be happy with something having a range of 75 to 100 miles between charges.
In Australia Kenworth prime movers for B-Double semi trailers are being converted to battery electric https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2021/06/23/brisbane-to-melbourne-on-a-single-battery/ When the price of diesel gets to a certain point and electricity for charging is cheap, then economics makes the electric truck more than viable.
Most dirt working projects, all the equipment has finished and gone on to the next job, before there is ANY ELECTRICAL SERVICE OF ANY KIND AVAILABLE AT SITE!
Barn cleaning....they get used for 1/2 to 1 hour every 12 hours.
Are the newer Buc-ee's convenience stores constructed as large as they are in anticipation of customers having to wait 30 or more minutes for a charge and being bored into shopping?
Buc-ee's, as in "Buc-ee's convenience stores..."
Interesting business idea! If people are going to wait for the cars to charge, might as well "mine the miner".
They built one here 2 years ago. Big place, lots of gas pumps and the brisket is too sweet. I thought Texans knew how to smoke brisket..
Not everyone only runs dirt moving equipment for 5 hrs at a time. Or even 8 hrs without stopping. Some people might even go 10-12 hrs while only stopping twice to squirt the dirt. Many of us have been there a time or two. Is that working smart ? No. Is that working efficiently? No. But there are times....lots of times when things on the job just don't go as planned. Regardless of how educated the management might be, real world is way different than what they thought they learned in that fancy college. If the managements hands are soft, supple and manicured? Run...... They live a fantasy land. Chances are that they don't know what they are talking about in the first place. These battery powered tractors are a joke. That is unless you have stock in a Chinese battery manufacturer. Just as with these mask mandates, gullible people will believe anything. Global warming? Yeah...zero emissions? Right. I don't see Chinese battery makers or anything Chinese going green. But people gobble this go green global warming propaganda up and think battery power is the answer. Oh...how many batteries does it take to shove a megga container hauler from Asia to Long Beach? How about airforce 1 from the funny farm to Little St. James Island? Impossible...it won't work. Choose to work, produce, conform and live a certain way just because some schmuck saw on TV told you to? Go for it. Plug her in and get you some of that coal fired, petroleum fed, natural gas injected electricity. You wanna move mountains like real men once did? Hire a bunch of China men, burn diesel or repower with a pocket sized nuclear reactor. The battery technology just isn't there and won't be there...not in my lifetime.
Hi Pete. It's happening over here in Australia in your lifetime as mentioned above with Kenworth trucks converted to battery electric with quick battery change stations changing battery packs in the time it takes to have a cup of coffee. See https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2021/06/23/brisbane-to-melbourne-on-a-single-battery/ At the time bigrigs article was written the money saved using electricity instead of diesel was significant. But the cost of diesel is now much higher in Australia and the cost of electricity is going down. If I was running an interstate trucking operation these numbers would talk to me. Also in Australia we have billions of dollars of private investment going into solar and wind farms as they are now producing electricity far cheaper than coal or gas. When the sun shines over here now there is already starting to be an excess supply of power when it's not needed so filling up quick change truck batteries is a no brainer. It's not just commercial operations which are installing renewable power systems, over 3 million Australian houses have rooftop solar installed with some states seeing times when the entire state was running on renewable power. High power prices combined with Government incentives initially caused the uptake of solar but now it's becoming so cheap to put panels on your roof that no incentive is required and Australia is a world leader in rooftop solar. The only missing link is inexpensive battery systems but battery costs are coming down and battery technology is getting better. I remember 40 years ago when my father bought a rechargeable Skil drill. After a dozen 3/16 holes slowly bored in sheet metal for rivets the battery was flat and it wasn't long before it was left in the cupboard and a mains powered drill was used. However nowadays rechargeable drills, impact wrenches, angle grinders etc offer much more convenience and comparable power with mains powered tools and non of the hassle of power cords across sites.
You got that all wrong. It isn't what some guy on TV told me to do, it's what is stuck to the back of every Subaru I see. EVERY Subaru owner feels it is their duty to tell me what to think, & how to live.
Interestingah ! If a rail line was laid along the length of Oz, and solar panels along side the track fed into the 3rd rail, I wonder how wide it would occupy ? 100' feet of panels on each side ? Or larger farms every 20 miles or so ? The train would run for free (all day).