Got a call from an old customer last week about his dump truck. It seems he rented the truck for a day or two and the lever puller slammed the shift lever hard enough to knock it out of the quadrant rails. The stick was just flopping around when I got there. I pulled the shift tower and shifted the socket on top so the transmission was back in neutral and then reinstalled the lever. I thought I had it made but when I tried it out and went over to check forth and fifth I noticed the lever could keep going until the ball went out of the socket again. I pulled the lever back out and set all back together right again and noticed that when I moved over to the forth and fifth position again I heard the high low spit air. I haven't worked on truck trannies since the nineties so don't know where to turn next. I didn't get the numbers off the box today but should be back up there tomorrow to look again. The pattern was different to me in that fourth gear was across from second while fifth was where forth would normally be. Year and miles on this monster are lost in antiquity. Speedo hasn't worked since they got the truck years ago. Any clues or suggestions would sure be appreciated.
Is it a straight 10 or a super 10? Big black high low switch or a small grey button on the side of the shifter?
Small gray slider on the handle. It doesn't go up and down, goes forward for high and back for low.
It’s a super 10. Half the physical shifter movements compared to a straight 10. When you get to the right spot in the pattern it makes the range shift for you.
So does that mean it is working normally when you go from third to ninth? What about the shift lever not stopping going toward the passenger side of the cab?
Yep, basically like a 5 and two rear axle. Hi and lo in each position.
The shift lever flopping around isn’t normal. As far as third to ninth if the proper shift procedure is followed it shouldn’t do that. If the shifter is fubar it may not be engaging the range selection at the right time. The way they shift is start in first, shift to second with button, then move lever to next position and flip button back for third, flip button for fourth, move lever and flip button back for fifth, flip button for sixth, move lever flip back for seventh, flip button for 8th, move lever and flip button back for 9th then flip button again for 10th. The physical movement of the shifter is like a normal 10 speed just don’t repeat the pattern with the shifter if that makes sense.
OK, the driver told me something else. Now I am curious. I'll come back with the numbers tomorrow if there is still a tag on the box. Thanks!
Oh man, that shift pattern is like the old RTO9513 13 speed, air shift split for all the upper range gears. Back in that day I much preferred the 9613, three gears in low, shift to mid, 5 gears, then shift to hi 5 gears.
Yes that is kind of what the driver explained to me. I thought it was like the RT12513 that we had in dump trucks. We had a ten speed in an International that started in low range and shift to high range and start all over.
The reversed 4th and 5th positions at the far right of the pattern almost sound like a 9spd overdrive. The tag will tell all.
It sounds like a super 10 like Junkyard said. IIRC your range shift is between 6th and 7th gear. I can't help you as why the shift lever is going too far to the passenger side though.
There was also a 9 or 10 speed that had the “top two” feature that allow a button shift as opposed to the full shifter movement. It would have had a range selector on the front like a normal 9 or 10 and the grey button on the shifter. Not to be confused with an 18 speed lol. Then there’s red for 13, blue for 15 and 8LL.... I’d rather have two sticks!
Shift tower is toast- common on S10's-the chevy version too. I have a nice super 10 for 250.00 bucks if you need it.
I'll know more today. A road trip might be in order.
OK drum roll please. The tag shows it as a RTL014610A. It is a super 10 as described earlier and by the shift pattern the owner says it has. He knows the box has a million miles on so wants and exchange with a warranty if available. Anyone know a supplier in the Seattle Tacoma area?
Here everybody hates the super tens, always throw them away and put thirteen speeds in.
I get mine through Western Peterbilt or who ever they are today. Weller remans, and had good luck with their transmissions.
Just for the info---thirteen speed is the exact same length as the super 10, so no drive line altering. If warranty is an issue your stuck with either genuine Eaton or a Weller. All dealers carry both brands-two year on Weller and the Eaton. And anymore one is as good as the other. And Weller is owned by Jasper. Price $4,600 to $5,300 plus core.
Thanks for the info. The owner is still trying to decide what he wants to do.
Well the one I have has about 250,000 miles on it, It has a International Harvester reman tag on it. It came out of the 94 Kenworth tow truck the company owns. I had three RTLO18913A transmissions around so I stuffed one in the tow truck. Only reason for changing is I just don't care for a Super 10. But I understand warranty. Used Super 10's are not worth the price of scrap but they want a bunch for a reman. Super 10's have odd gear ratio's and nothing is compatible with any other Eaton transmission. Odd Ball.
We will see what he says when I start pitching some hard numbers. Like most people around here, he doesn't know how much the going rate is and tends to react a little different when he hears the exchange number plus the R&R. I'll keep you all informed. Thanks again.
I am curious about the super 10 transmission. I have never seen one. But the range shift between 6 and 7 when moving the shifter sideways makes me think it is really a 3 speed main box with air splitter and range box? Can someone confirm or deny this? i.e. gear 3/4 is the same "hole" as gear 7/8 but with the range box in high instead of low?
The stuper 10 is like any other Eaton in the front section, the rear section is like a 13 speed with the standard twin counter shafts. When you move the shift lever to the right at 5th-6th it completes it's air range shift. The pattern is the same as any ten speed it's just splitting every gear in the front section using the rear section to make the split. It was actually a pretty tough gear box but it's like driving a 72 International Loadstar. No thanks. Turd
What I don't understand is why if the front box is 5 speeds why there needs to be any range shift at all. The 72 International did not have any range shift.
Because the there is not enough ratio in the front section for overdrive. Expensive to have overdrive two speed rear drive units. Ratio in 1st 10.2, ratio in 10th is 0.75 very wide range. A gas pot couldn't create enough torque for higher ratios.
Thanks for the explanation. It is great to have someone who understands transmissions to bounce things off of. Most guys just ignore them, they are not thought of as cool as an engine. Another question relating to this. I assume the ratio change of the range box in a super 10 is quite a bit narrower than a 9/13/18 speed and narrower still than a 10 speed. Since my days of 10 speeds esp. wide ratio ones I remember having to make the 5-6 shift rather slowly. Or else you would get into the next gear before the range box had a chance to drop in. When this happened I could sometimes just leave it in gear and let off the gas and it would drop in when it came synchronous on its own like a splitter.
The first "big truck" I ever drove was a 1982 chevy with a 8.2 fuel pincher diesel. 5 +2 speed rear. So when I first drove a super 10, it was like old home week. I have a super 10 now in a international 8100 behind a M11. If you're not loaded to the gills, its not a bad setup. If I haven't driven it in a while, I can get a little lost in the gears when making big multiple gear jumps, but I can usually find my way into a gear. Its really hard for guys that have always driven straight 9- 10- 13 speeds to get onto a super 10, but anyone who's driven a old 5 +2 its just like them shifting. Its funny, of the equipment at my shop, only a couple have the same shift pattern. And some of the 13's are U pattern and some are H, and sometimes I can't stand and explain to a new guy which ones are which, but I can drive them and not have to think about it. I've got a old small box 613 (used to have 2 - sold the other one last year) , a 9 speed eaton big box, 9 speed mack, super 10, 4 big box 13 speeds, and a 15 speed. No 18 speeds, and no two stick macks, or 5+4's either. As far as ratio's go. I actually like the old small box 13's the best. Super low 1st gear, and all the gears are about the same distance apart. Works really nice in my short steep hills. Lots of low gears close together. It actually is nicer than the big box 13's where the top half splits. I really don't need my gears that close together up top, because I don't do that much road time in milder hills, where the close splits at road speed are nice. I kind of wish some of my 13's were 15's, because the 15's are more like the old small box 13's, where the gears are closer together down low. I don't want it bad enough to change them out, but it would be nice. I guess the 18's are the best of both worlds, always a split away. Whether up top or down low. But man they are pricey to buy.
I learned to drive a 5 & 2 on the farm at seven, C700 Ford. The 5+2 is known as a farmer transmission along with the super 10. 18 speeds are totally unnecessary unless you are logging or true heavy mover. With the horse power of today's engines if you can't get moving in low with a 13 you have more than just a problem. A 15 speed is just a 10 with deep reduction. The RTO & RTOO 15 was a great highway gear box but you needed the deep reduction for backing up especially with any thing higher than 3:91 rears RTOO 15 with 3:55 rear drives and you were flying. Eaton Transmission Ratio chart below. http://www.roadranger.com/rr/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/Transmissions/PCT_486870
What everyone hated was a straight 7 speed. T-14607B in this case. It has a pretty wide overall ratio coverage but uneven steps. So 1-2 is bigger than 2-3 and the step gets smaller each shift up to 7. I suppose you would get used to it over time but for everyone who is used to the same RPM/ratio step that thing is impossible to get used to.
I had one of those in the last shop truck I drove. I liked it. It had the low range needed for the steep logging roads I had to go up but still had the speed on the highway. It took a bit to get onto it but once you had it figured out it shifted very nice.
Well since we're past helping the OP and just throwing out opinions: my favorite transmission is the 8LL. You see them all the time here in tandem dump trucks and grain trucks. You rarely see them in a tractor trailer set up. I don't find the deep reduction that handy moving forward, but for backing it's just awesome. I have an 8LL in my rollback and I'm always backing into some odd or precarious location. I drop into LL and creep along. I drive a lot of different trucks and once in a while I get myself switched up going from a 8/9/13 pattern to a straight 10 speed. I know you are not supposed to go back into L in high range on a 8/9/13, but it's happened a few times
The hidden gear in some Eaton's-instead of shifting the range selector to low range when shifting from 5th to 4th in a thirteen speed shift to overdrive and into low hole. Now if done wrong bad things will happen {SO I DON"T RECOMMEND ANYONE TRY THAT SHIFT}. Your right Wes 8LL is a good in town country road/flat ground gear box. But for pulling the grades at speed here in the Northwest it's an entirely different matter, 13 speed is the only way to go. I never have an opinion on gear boxes just facts. If I had nothing else to do but build Eaton transmissions I would be the happiest mechanic on the planet.
What had the big rpm drop was the RTOO 15sp. You needed a good running engine with Big Kahuna's when you pushed the shifter up toward the dash, 700 rpm drop between 9th & 10th.
Company tractor I was in: ‘01 KW W900, CAT C16 & 18 speeds. 105,500. It was nice to be able to split the lower side coming up from Spokane street onto I-5 N/B in slow traffic- otherwise, you’re right- lotsa power! I have a hobby truck w 3208 and 5&2- 4th over/5th under basically the same- like only having 6 speeds... Suggestion made to put a 9513 in it....would be fun but, maybe someday.
I had a gas powered GMC service truck with a Clark trans, 5 and 2 setup where you went to 4lo, then 5 lo, then 4 hi, then 5 hi. Drove you nuts at first.
It seems A model boxes are a little rare but B model boxes are a lot cheaper and more plentiful around here. Anyone know if there is a big difference between them?
{A} is direct {B} overdrive. Higher ratios. Really a FRO-16210C which is a standard 10spd would work best. The 10C has a 1st gear ratio of 12.0 and a top gear of 0.75. The FRO 16210C is common like rocks on the ground. You would have to lengthen drive shaft though. Super 10's are not well suited for a dump truck because of the first gear ratio of 10.2.
That's a GM thing. They call it a "short 4th". The old grain trucks I used to work on were set up that way.
Truck Shop, you are correct about the dump truck and the tranny issue. The air bag suspension leads me to believe this is a line haul truck converted to dump truck. How are the ratios in the B in the low gears related to the A? This truck hauls rock in short haul or local use only.
I recently worked on a tandem dump truck that was built from a converted T600 tractor. It was a crap setup IMO. Those highway trucks don't have enough ground clearance for offroad use. The fairings are always dragging. This one also had a super 10. And the air bag suspension is pretty sketchy in a dump truck. Anyway, the one I worked on would not engage the PTO. Once I tunneled my way under the low fairings I found that all of the air lines had been ripped off the PTO and valve. They were hanging way too low and snagged a root or dirt clump or something.
Super 10A --- Super 10B 1st 10.2 --- 1st 11.06 2nd 7.56--- 2nd 8.20 3rd 5.63--- 3rd 6.06 4th 4.25--- 4th 4.49 10th 0.75--- 10th 0.74 Standard shift pattern RTO 16210C 1st 12.69 2nd 9.29 3rd 6.75 4th 4.90 10th 0.73 The 10C is the best gear ratio for a dump. It has the 1st gear ratio of low in a 13spd and 10th gear ratio of top gear in a 13spd. 400 rpm drop each shift in the higher gears which is ok.
Thanks for the ratios. The client has a B model coming from the Kenworth dealer. Cost is right at $3,000 with $300 core charge. Parts guy said they don't really care if they get the core or not. The Peterbilt guy was about $30 less on an A model, 5 days away with freight cost plus $2,000 for the core. A road guy the lives close by is doing the R&R this weekend. Thanks for all the tips and help. I'll let you all know how this works out.
I find it interesting how different countries have different preferences as far as transmissions in trucks doing effectively the same job. The standard transmision for an Australian semi would be an 18 speed hands down. Thirteen speeds (RT 613) died out with International Accos and Ford Loosely builts powered by either petrol v8's, Cummins VT190's or 3208 Cats. Fifteen speeds (RT915 and up) were the heavy spec weapon of choice once, however the adventof the 18 speed rapidly lead to their demise as a common box. 10 speeds (RT610) were only common in lighter specced Acco's in my recollection. Of course, Mack went their own way to a degree with their 12 speed, although most Macks in recent years have had Roadrangers fitted. A few 13 and 15 speeds found their way into Japanese trucks such as Isuzu and Mitsubishi and it was always a source of amusement to see a farmer trade in his old 5 +2 truck on a usually second hand Jap truck with a 13 or 15 and then watching them trying to come to terms with the constant mesh range change box. They usually found a gear, ANY gear and crawled to a place well out of sight to try and get the hang of it. It's strange how two countries can have such different preferences for getting the same job done.
You also have to remember that our weight laws are quite different here. 90% of all tractor trailer rigs in the US will never gross more than 80,000 lbs (say 36,000 kg). I'd say at least 70% of all straight trucks in the US will never gross more than 54,000 lbs (say 25,000 kg). In fact, many dry van rigs in the US will never even see 80,000 lbs. Since the maximum trailer length is 53' for the most part, many rigs will "cube out" or basically run out of room for cargo before hitting max weight. The only time you see 18 speeds here is on heavy hauling rigs, rigs that run only in a geographic area that allows more weight, or as a vanity option. For example, Michigan allows basically twice the gross weight of most other states. So, you see what they call the "Michigan Special". It's usually a day cab tractor with at least 500 hp, heavy axles, larger brakes, a 13 or 18 speed trans, and often a double or even triple frame.
Strange in alberta most all trucks i have owned and seen in my field of work where all 18 spd. 46 rear 20 frt...my baby international has a 10 spd 330 hp. Weird shifting from 18 to 10 though darn granny hole gets me everytime
18's came out in early 90's but only became available when high torque transmissions were needed because of the higher torque engines. When torque ratings reached 1550 the transmissions changed to tapered bearings in the rear section, the early ball roller couldn't take the torque. Plus with the changes on bearings the direct/over drive splitter gear was moved from the very back to the front of the rear section allowing for the option of splitting the low range gears also. But the torque ratings are the same for both 13's and 18's and in a OTR being able to split the bottom four gears is pretty useless. But the manuals are going away anyhow-autos have taken over.
When the company I worked bought a new fleet of logging trucks and had them equipped with the autoshift 18 speeds, we all though that they were crazy. Most of the drivers were offended. At the start it was a fairly low acceptance rate. The learning curve was fairly steep on something that you thought would be simple. But they figured it out. Now 4 years I would say that it is probably better than 90% of the drivers like them now. I had a pretty good talk with a couple of the drivers that I consider to be the best, about what they thought of the autoshifts. First off, we are logging. The trucks are only empty on the hiway. Loaded they stay on the logging roads so they are loaded right up. Steep terrain so lots of shifting involved. They pretty much all said that they were 50/50 about the auto's but the auto's were starting to grow on them. They liked that at the end of the day the right arm was not worn out from scrambling eggs all day. Lots of the guys leave them in manual and use the buttons to up and down shift. Interesting note here. The guys that use in manual mode tended to have less issues with the aftertreatment system.
What do you guys think about Allisons? I have never used an AMT style transmission. My experience is all vocational, regular manual or Allison it seems. I don't know if anybody actually uses Allisons on 80,000 lb road trucks. One of the great benefits of an Allison is full power shifting so you can gain speed out of a pit or steep hill or something where a manual, automated or not, could never synchronize the next gear. Interesting to note about that. In the old days Allisons all seemed pretty well tailored to the engine from the factory. Last 10+ years, they seem to come with a stupid low performance program that has the truck in 5th or 6th gear by 25 mph. (5th is direct, 6th is OD for those reading) Every new truck, the Allison rep had to come out and reprogram to some kind of "high performance vocational" where the transmission actually attempts to keep the truck engine in power range most of the time. We them really fine tune tune them, so that going up a hill floored, the transmission would make an accurate decision about whether it could pull the next gear, or stay in the current gear near high idle RPM. Once this is done they are quite nice to drive, really makes the day shorter.
Birken, we ran Allison's for years and still do in our off hiway truck. So Hayes HDX, Pacific P16, Kenworth 850's and such. Allison 5960/6061's. Great trans and worked really well with not much problem. But those were in the big trucks that they don't make anymore and were not able to run anywhere but on the private logging roads, not for hiway use. I know later on in life they were trying to fully automate them into a true automatic but I didn't have any time on them. I loved those old monsters. Honking great big load of wood on it, right to the mat and just touch the shifter and bang, next gear. And lets not forget about the retarder for keeping the speed in check on hills. Going back and forth between retarder, jake and some brakes they managed to keep those monsters held back on some pretty darn steep hills. The big companies up in my part of the world all decided that they should be hiway trucks years ago. Many reasons but I think most of them were all BS. Obsolete parts was one of the big ones. The funny thing is, the big dogs got rid of the fat trucks because they were too costly, the little dogs managed to buy up a bunch and the little guys do alright with them. They can still find parts. Strange, but that is a tale for a different place and time. To many open wounds still.
I was more asking about 3000/4000, or the old 600/700 series Allisons, for on highway use. I don't know how the off highway CLBT numbers cross over to the MT/HT or MD/HD numbers. I too liked to shift with the buttons where applicable. Some die hard manual fans would say why don't you just drive a regular stick then. Well it is a lot easier and a lot more foolproof to push a button and have it shift than yank another gear. I liked to say it this way. In a pickup it seems that an automatic costs more outright, uses more fuel, needs more maintenance. In a vocational truck it is the opposite, except the purchase price. They usually operate more efficiently unless there is a really good driver. They get the load to the destination sooner. They don't need clutches, shift forks, and the like. Less stuck-in-the-mud calls because it is easier to soft pedal your way out. That is for converter based transmissions. I have no experience with AMTs like I said earlier.
Most fire apparatus these days is Allison trans equipped, hold up to some pretty sever service when called upon, 90% of fire trucks cannot be scaled as are over axle weight from the get go. Last large pumper I got to run, tandem Kovatch (KFE) had 66,000 on the drives and 20,000 on the steer, 86,000 gross weight and just a straight Truck., 2800 gallons water, additional 500 gallons foam concentrate, hose lays, hard suction line and rescue tooling for highway accidents. The rest was all structure to hold it together. had a Cummins M11 in it on a Allison I have no clue as to.
And 9 to 14 axles.
The tandem axle heavy spec state and county snow plow trucks around here all have had autos for many years. The guys tell me that no matter if plowing snow or hauling gravel, after they self shifts to 3rd they hit the button and manual shift the upper gears except occasionally when running empty.
I looked at a 130,000 lbs crane this weekend that was allison. And loaded up heavy like that, there's no power shifting uphill. You want to manually select 1. If it makes the shift to 2, it will immediately bog down, hammer shift right back up to full in 1, then back to dogging it in 2. Its a see saw mess. I found heavy that I prefer a manual, they hold up better, and you're so much closer to being in the right spot in the powerband with 13 gears vs. 5 in a allison.
I think the only thing that holds back the Allison is the cost. I believe it's about a $20,000 option at the time of purchase. And the maintenance costs are also quite high. Oil is $40/gallon and needs to be changed every 25,000 miles or so. That said, the Allison does prop up the resale value of a truck. Especially in a dump truck and Allison will add $5-10,000 to the used price.
Lots of information here! I breezed through it and hope I am not saying anything again. I will share this: Fuller transmission sticks can come out of place due to the shift tower, as someone mentioned. They can allow the ball of the stick to get to far from the transmission. That can also cause the lever to lock up on the shift rail. Yes very rare. The older models just had an o-ring in the top of the tower. The ball could wear into the housing and trash the housing. Later models had a steel washer under the o-ring. Those prevent the housing damage but when the o-ring is bad the stick can still get out of place. Just replace that and you will probably be good. Might want to do the isolater bushing, if it has one, while you are there. It is not a good week when you weld on the stick, replace the transmission top, then the transmission and find out the the tower is bad. Driver does not speak English. He would jerk around with it and get it back home. We were catching it form the office. Could not understand him or find anything wrong to start with.
The first part is true, 1-2 shift might have to be locked out, that is why they have a shift selector that goes all the way to 1. If they are programmed correctly as I mentioned above they will not attempt a 3-4, 4-5 or 5-6 shift unless they know the engine will pull it. But in the low gears that kind of programming is too finicky, the driver still has to somewhat have a brain. As to whether they hold up better, in my old vocation, propane, there was a lot more work done to driver abused Roadrangers than to Allisons. Their little maintenance calculator says 300,000 miles in vocational service with some made up numbers I gave it, if you are using TES-295 synthetic, which they all come with for 10 years or more.
FWIW, I used to work in a foundry that made some parts for Allison Transmissions. Talk about a bunch of first rate A-holes. My boss threw one of their quality control reps out of our building followed by a "never come back". I'll never buy an Allison product if I can help it.
Have been in a few machines with Allisons, not been disappointed by service life or dependability.
Mercedes Daimler builds the DT12 in Freightliners, Eaton builds the 13sp Autoshift. Actually it's a little late in the game for Allison.
Well, Allison has been there all along, long before computers were ever smart enough to move shift forks. I find it strange that they never caught on but maybe the efficiency lost in a converter/clutch based transmission with oil pressure holding everything on is too much for line haul.