A dozer needs to be selected, it looks like by characteristics they are pretty much equal. The dozer will be operating in a gypsum quarry. The price difference is 55 thousand dollars, the Cat being more expensive. Very interested in opinions of people who had actual experience with both machines. Thank you in advance for your replies.
Hi LEGEND... If you could provide a description of the model of D155, and if they are not new, the hourmeter reading of both machines they could be compared.
The choice is between both brand new machines. Not sure about the exact model of the D155 but most likely D155A-5.
Hi Legend We got 4 D65 and 1 D85. Are happy with them, and they have been going on without any trouble. Drivers who has spent hours in both Cat and Komatsu likes the Komatsu.(I have only spent time in the old cat's, and won't say anything) The Galileo cabin is very good. The only thing i dont like, is that the driving controll demands some force when shifting direction, i believe it will be softer after som hours. I have posted some videos on youtube, search for MKTEF. My advice is that u should evaluate the products after a number of criterias that is important to u. Price is only one of them. Life cycle cost is the next and most important one.(how long serviceintervals and the cost of each, and dont forget the daily service!) Aftermarked price should also be in the LCC. Comfort, productivity, dealer, spares availability and such should also be evaluated. Hope u get satisfied with our choise.
If the dozers are brand new machines, wouldn't the Cat D8 dozer be the T series insted of the R series you are looking at ?
I also wondered about this, but turns out D8T is the newest model for the US, D8R are not sold here anymore. The dozer that will be bought is for overseas and it looks like D8Rs are still being made for abroad. Thanks for your reply MKTEF, i will try to see if i can find out the service periods and prices for the two dozers.
The same goes with the D155. The latest machine offered by Komatsu is the D155AX-6 known as the Sigmadozer. This machine has a Tier 3 engine with EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) The -5 has an electronic engine but it is not Tier 3 compliant. The D155AX-5 is a capable machine and the last production machines has some really nice features. As others have said, purchase price is not always the best measure of value. Check out what warranty coverage you get and what exactly is included in the deal. You likely already know that undercarriage costs are high on any crawler dozer so it may be good to check out their costs too. Have you considered a repair and maintenance program where your dealer covers all maintenance and repair costs on a fixed rate per operating hour for a given period? This way you know your purchase price and your cost per hour can be guaranteed before making the deal.
Why is it I get this funny feeling you already know the answers to these suggestions.
'Kummagutsa' D155 Vs Cat D8R. Hi, Legend. Over the last 18 months or so, 5 different companies that I know of have ended their deals with Kummagutsa to supply their heavy plant requirements. The quoted reasons are pretty much the same in all cases. 1. Only about 2/3 of the service life to first rebuild and between subsequent rebuilds. 2. Parts and service back-up just does not match that offered by Cat in this neck of the woods. (Queensland, Australia.) Several of the major coal mines here in Queensland were buying D475's in preference to D11's, mostly because of the lower initial purchase price. You don't see nearly as many new D475's going into coal mines here these days as you do D10's or D11's. I don't intend either to start any arguments about this or to get involved in any arguments about it. I am simply passing on the information for what it is worth.
Both dozers would work fine for you in that application. That said, the deciding factors will have to be maintenance cost, availability, longevity, and resale values. The longer you keep the tractor, the better the Cat looks. Cat has strong dealer support on the east coast (assuming that's where it will be working) and a major parts depot at York, PA. Looking at Ritchie Bros auction results, the Cat's sell for far more at auction, and there are considerably more of them available there too. I myself like the D8's operational features. I was more comfortable in a D8R than I was in a D9N and it was a more solid machine. The last Komatsu I operated (a 475) just didn't feel good to me. Good Luck!
Deas, what criteria do your guys use for calculating optimum component rebuild point. Sticking with dozers at what hours will a larger Cat dozer engine be replaced/rebuilt? How about other components such as transmission and final drives?
Somebody must have been listening Deas because Komatsu Australia just set up a dedicated office for mining in Queensland... http://www.komatsu.com.au/komatsuwo...atsuAustraliasetsupdedicatedminingoffice.aspx No doubt closing the gap on parts and service will be on their agenda if that is losing sales
Check the cost and availability of components as a place to start. The Cat high drive undercarriage will run you in the neighborhood of $65,000 to $75,000 dollars to replace. I haven't seen the newest D155 but I know the first AX Komatsu ran considerably less. Both will quote you unrealistic cost per hour numbers so make them guarantee those numbers on paper. If they balk then walk to the other side. Which manufacturer has exchanges on the shelf? Engines, radiators, torque converters, transmissions and final drives will break on either or both. You can't afford to wait weeks for a new one. Tier 3 engines will be scarce for some time. So can you afford to have a machine down until yours is rebuilt? Who pays for that lost time? Your banker won't wait for his payments just because the machine is down. Check the warranty policies for the hidden traps. Who pays for travel time and mileage, troubleshooting time and freight? Will a broken engine be covered if you use someone else's filters? Are you required to use the manufacturer's oil sampling program? If a part fails and causes further failure in the rest of that component, do they cover the full loss or just the failed part? What happens in the event of an abnormal wear rate in a component? The blade face wears through in a short time, cutting edges and ripper teeth have more butter than steel, and so on. Look for specialized tooling needed for operation or maintenance. If a fault code shows up on the monitor, is specialized hardware and software required in order to troubleshoot the problem? Are service manuals supplied with the machine purchase? Are factory trained mechanics available to repair the machine? Who pays if they can't fix the problems? Are there competant parts personnel available when you need them. Let us know what you find out.
Id go for the D8R myself. They are one tough SOB. In the gypsum i would advise you get the PPR undercarriage and have the centres cut out of the pad to prevent packing in the links.
Dedicated mining office?????????????????? Hi, Wulf. Setting up a dedicated mining office is one thing. Remedying the parts and service shortage is a whole DIFFERENT ball game. Let's just wait and see if they do anything about the service side of their distributorship before we say that somebody listened. On another note, even if they fixed the service and parts issues, there is still that tiny minor detail of their machines commonly only having about 2/3 the service life between rebuilds that Cat seems to deliver pretty regularly. Sitting on the fence with plenty of cushioning.
Deas, what criteria do your guys over there use for calculating major component replacement point? There is always a point reached when overhaul cost is optimised based on hours in use, duty cycles, maintenance, importance of equipment to the site operation and other factors. Over here we have cold temperature start ups to deal with (running 24 hrs a day can really prolong life) I have never heard that 1/3 gap between Cat and Komatsu fleet equipment over here :beatsme
Criteria for a rebuild. Hi, Wulf. Most of the companies that I have worked with seem to have one main criteria for when a machine is due for a rebuild: Does it still run? If the answer is, "Yes", then keep 'er goin'. If the answer is, "No", it goes into the 'recovery ward'. Sadly, 'Kummagutsas' seem to reach that 'no go' point with about 1/3 less hours on the clock than similar sized Cats. It is this combined with the lack of service and spare parts that has turned many people and companies around here off buying 'Brand X' machines in the last 2 or 3 years. One major quarrying company which had an arrangement with 'Kummagutsa' to supply all their machine needs has pulled out and gone over to Cat. Another major quarry chain bought 2 'Kummagutsa' HD325 rear dumps for one of their quarries and a WA500 4wd loader for the sales yard in the same quarry as a trial. I'm told they won't be buying any more. Several years ago, there seemed to be more 'Kummagutsa' excavators around than I see these days and Hitachi seems to be becoming more prevalent. I guess there's a reason in there somewhere. I have been told that several major coal mines have tried 'Kummagutsa' dozers and have gone back to Cat. Maybe that is why the new mining office was started, to try to recover some lost ground.
Hopefully the answer is YES most of the time ... Most of the mines and big contractors in Canada have a different and slightly more scientific approach. Many mines are tracking downtime, actual time to repair and mean time between failures in attempts to avoid unscheduled downtime. Machine purchase and selection is often based on these long term results and actual availability and cost per hour guarantees (in partnership with the dealer) not just on brand or country of manufacture. If you look at the aviation industry they incur incredible expenses and have a major focus on preventive maintenance and scheduled major component replacement because to them 'uptime' and 'downtime' literally means more than in our industry I guess we are somewhere between the aviation industry and your 'recovery ward' approach but generally machines are judged and maintained on long term actual performance and their impact on production/profitability because having a big shovel in the recovery ward for a week or two can literally cost $millions.
I've had extensive experience with both makes of equipment and I would have to question the sources of those claims of 1/3 less life in the Komatsu components compared against Cat. I would say every different type of equipment will have different designs, different operating features, run in different materials and have different costs to maintain and repair. I've personally seen many Komatsu engines outlast the comparable Cat engine two to one in similar applications. I've seen Cat undercarriage cost twice the initial cost of the Komatsu comparable and only last slightly longer if any at all. I've seen extensive wiring harness and computer problems in Cats that I never had in the rice burners. I've seen mediocre operators run Komatsu wheel loaders at the same cycle times as superior operators in the comparable Cat. The Komatsu does have the issue of all the components wearing out at the same time. Perhaps that is why when auction sales are compared for comparable machines the Cat will in almost all cases be higher. The Komatsu machines that make it to the auctions are usually one step off the torch. The only real test of which make is better or worse we are probably not going to have much access to. Actual life cycle cost per hour figures are what tell the real story. So if you are looking to buy one or the other I recommend getting one salesman from each, bash them frequently and loadly for all to hear, make them give brash promises of unrealistic amounts of production and costs in writing and taking the business deal that best suits your needs. Neither machine is much better or much worse than the other, only a little different.
Back in yesteryear, it was commonly accepted that Komatsu equipment did not last as long as Cat iron. It was explained to me that Komatsu engineers designed their machines with the latest technology, figuring that when they were worn out, technology would have advanced and new models would be built on that premise. Cat, on the other hand, from years of experience with thrifty Yanks and farmers, knew that folks here wanted machines that lasted a long time, and that were very rebuildable. That's what they manufactured and serviced. So Cat's way outlasted Komatsu's then. At sale or auction time, Cat values have always been higher for these reasons, and you continue to see forty and fifty year old Cat's still working every day. But there has been a change in attitude at both companies from what I see. Some from competition no doubt, some from changes in technology and material costs and production methods. Cats are not built so heavily, Komatsu's seem to be built stronger, thus leading to near parity on machine and component life. Both are on the leading edge of technologies in every department. Given equal treatment in production and maintenance, both maker's machines will likely be on par today. I do hear fairly consistent remarks about the Komatsu dozer longevity tho, especially in rock. Undercarriage life seems to be the major subject. Lot of other non-production factors to consider. Length of project, future need for that size or type of machine, market rise and fall, fuel and other cost factors. If for some reason, someone no longer has a need for iron, sale or auction price can be an important item to think about, and Cat, at least for now, usually still comes out better in this regard. Another point, oft overlooked, is international money markets with regard to the value of one currency to another. Those buying in Aussi money may pay more than in U.S. dollars, Japanese Yen, or Euros. That might play into some transactions and make one brand more attractive over another. John C has a good point about actual long term costs and dealer estimates. If you do not have your own cost figures, take what you can get from the dealer and discount that by about a third. Cat's production handbook figures are pretty good, but I've always found that every job and every machine is different when it comes to cost. Some of that is due to the operator and his method of working. Fuel consumption records are one of the best ways there is to track how your operators are doing. If you are not tracking individual machine fuel consumption, you should be, but that's a another subject altogether. Wulf has a good comment too, regarding the airplane industry. But you have to remember, rarely does a D9 dozer fall out of the sky carrying 200 passengers because of improper or non-performed maintenance. That industry does a lot of what could be considered excessive and over-costly repair and replacement just for that reason alone. They do keep good records tho. Washington Construction had about the best equipment cost records I've ever used. We kept track of all hours on every piece of equipment on every job. Available time, down time, scheduled production time, maintenance time, and the reason behind every hour that the machines did not or were not available to work. I can't say enough good about very accurate records like these when it comes time to consider repair, rebuild, or replace.
Which is a good setup for a question that occured to me in reading the CAT D6T thread... Are the leading edge machines of today, with all of the high tech gimmickery that makes them go (or fails to make them go, as the case my be), still going to be supported/support-able, fifty years from now? How long before some certian computer module becomes too costly or too outdated to keep in a manufacturer's parts inventory? And what happens to the machine's value then?
I think we depend to much on technology today, I dont think the newer advanced machinary weather it be in construction, farming, automotive, forestry and so on will last as long as the old iron. At work, we have 3 Cat 769B rock trucks that are from the 70's that get 50hrs a week put on them and still going strong because they are simple and easy to find the problem on when it occurs, not to mention cheaper to repair. Today there is so much technology (computors) in things that makes it a headache to find the problem, take for examle a car, you are driving down the road and the check engine light comes on, you take it to a mechanic to find out the problem and even the mechanic dosent now were to begin.
Longevity and cost-effective re-building Hi, Folks. There are a lot valid points being put forward here and I commend you for them. Surfer-Joe, I understand that the Washington group bought out Morrison-Knudsen and then wrecked one of the best companies that I ever worked for. M-K had EVERY machine, truck and company vehicle, almost down to the individual paper clips, numbered and recorded back in 1965-66, when I worked for them on the Hammersley iron ore railway in Western Australia. That system had been ramped up and refined a bit when I next worked for them on the Mount Newman iron ore railway, in 1968-69. I worked for them again in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, in 1973 and it was upgraded further again. At that time, M-K were fourth largest in the world based on work completed in the previous 12 months. We didn't get to see many 'old wore-out' machines with M-K on the iron ore railways 'cos part of the deal was that they had to have mostly new machines. In fact, on the Hammersley project, all the heavy iron was leased from Hammersley Iron themselves and returned in new condition less 20% at the end of construction. This was also a cost-plus job. I understand M-K no longer exists, sold out by one CEO. Thiess Contractors, a largish Australian outfit, also had record-keeping for its machines and vehicles back in the mid-1960's, although not as detailed as the M-K system. They are still around and doing a bit. One of these days, I'll try to get some photos of their first 'big' job, a road cutting done in 1943, which is still in use today. Leighton Contractors, another largish Australian company, also kept records on all their machines as far back as when I first worked for them, in 1972. Among the smaller companies that I have worked for, it appears to me that the most effective method of assessing whether a machine or a compnonent is in need of re-building is scheduled oil sampling, done without fail at every service. O.K., so it add costs to operating a machine but, if it saves thousands of dollars by preventing a catastrophic failure, it has well and truly paid for itself. I also agree with those who say we depend too much on technology today. I'll even stick my neck out here and predict that a FAR lower percentage of today's computer-controlled machines will be running at 50 or 60 years old than the figures for yesteryear's machines. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to come back in another 50 years time and find that there are more 100 year old machines running than there are 50 year old machines. (The 'coming back' might surprise me a bit though.) For those who don't see the gap in machine longevity between Cat and 'Kummagutsa', all I have to say is that I am following the evidence of my own eyes and the reports that come in to me from people I know and trust. And please, don't get the idea that I don't like operating 'Kummagutsa' machines. So long as it is reasonably user-friendly - which the 'Kummagutsa' machines usually are, especially today - and it burns diesel fuel, moves dirt and makes noise, I'm pretty happy. My 0.02. (Roughly 0.0175 U.S.)
I'd have to agree, except that I expect that rather than coming back, you'll just still be here...
Up until about 5 or 6 years ago I was a CAT fanatic, I would not give house space to the notion that Komatsu could be compared with CAT. Now I am a lot more open minded, mainly due to the fact that I have had so many Cat dozers in the D4H, 5M, 5N, 6M, 6N, 6H and 6R line up that had no steam in them what so ever. Out of that list I had one 6H LGP and a 5M LGP that I thought were OK, just OK not great. If any of those tractors outlasted Komatsu's, it could be because they don,t get the same amount of work per year. The 61 PX is a fantastic tractor and without any reservation I think the 65PX is a far better tractor than the D6R and would be quite surprised if it didnt out perform the 6T, but that is a guess I haven't been on a 6T. Nearly all of the fore mentioned CAT dozers were nearly new or new, not worn out. I worked in Ireland a few years ago and at that time (I am note sure about now) Komatsu had taken over. When I would ask contractors why that was, I was allways told that the running costs on the CATs were too high? Until working there I had not been on a 65PX, in short time I found that they would run rings round a 6. On the other hand if I am given the choice between an 8R or T and a 155, I will take the 8 any day, I think it is a fantastic tractor. I can't back any of this up with facts and figures in regard to running costs, I don't pay the bills but I do know how they feel from the seat!!!!
I think John C. explained it well. About some Komatsu engines out lasting the Cats in some applications. I don't know if any of you remember the problems cat was having with 3406's and lifter bores, valve bridge guide pins, and premature main bearing failures. I do. As far as how well the dozer will hold up depends alot on the operators, most have the same attitudes alot have about Komatsu's, and will do what they can to kill the machine, I think this has alot to do with which brand lasts or doesn't. Its kinda like giving an all american Harley guy a Honda to ride, he's gona make sure that thing is junk in the first 30 miles or so. Personally I think it won't be too long both brands will be worthless. Cause they both will be built in china, and guess who won't have the savings past on to them? Thats right the end user. But the end user will be stuck trying to keep it running. And the manufacture will walk away with huge profits compaired to what they get now. My suggestion is to make the cat dealer prove why you should have to pay so much more, like do you get a 5 year bumper to bumper or cutting edge to ripper bar warranty? Maybe a 2 year lube maintenance deal. If they don't compromise go with the Komatsu.
Don't go with Komatsu The company I work for replaced our D8R with a new D155AX-6. Power is not even close, steering and direction control is not as nice or accurate as the D8, and the problem that our '95 model D155 had with not being able to turn and lift the blade at the same time is still there. Even after they added another pump! The -6 came with Sigmadozer blade on it, and that wasn't very well liked either. You just couldn't carry any material with it. Especially on slopes or while turning. The U blade we replaced it with carries a lot more, but throws the balance of the machine off because it's so heavy. Product support from Komatsu doesn't compare to Cat either. It took over 2 months to get a leaky hyd. tank replaced under warranty. It does have a nice cab on it, one of the few good things any operators have to say about it. We've had it now for about 9 months, and when it went in for some warranty work, we got our old D8 back and all it did was remind the operator how much he hated the Komatsu
the d8 is the way to go it is a far better machine and it is very easy to repair if there is a problem and the cat people are much more helpful when it comes to fixing the problem yourself
dozers No experiences with these big machines, but I always seemed to get more friendly/quicker/cheaper parts and service from Komatsu. They are both the same distance away, so that isnt an issue. Parts exchange with the Cat is more of a PITB, and you really need to keep an eye on your monthly statements. Cat seems to drag their feet in regards to refunding your core charge. You have to pay up front for the core, they send it to the shop and see if its rebuildable, then they credit your account. I do remember, they charged me $2500 core charge on a part, they never posted the return to my account, so I paid the bill at the end of the month, not looking close to the details. My mechanic later asked me about the core charge, which I then looked into, seems like they forgot to credit my account for $2500, HUMMMM Im sure there are stories with Komatsu, but for the most part, they dont make you pay the core charge (unless its bad) until it is tested. I really do like Cat better, but they seem to be proud of their machines/parts/service etc compared to others. The other post are very good with the suggestions, just do your math, but not only in purchase $$$
There is a reason Cat owns 80% of the world wide market share of D8 class dozers. I am sure there are a lot of real smart folks out there buying dozers. So the numbers speak for themselves. There are probably a few fleets of brand X dozers out there, but not many. My gut feeling is when folks buy brand X, price is the big draw.
Hands down go with the Komatsu. I worked for CAT for a few years and now work at a Komatsu dealer and the quality of the two does not even compare. We have alot of D65s, D85s, D155s, a D275 and a D375 in our territory and most all were given to the companies for demo when they were looking at new dozers. The CAT vs Komatsu debate goes on and on. To be honest CAT sets the bar when it comes to parts. Unfortunatly at the present time I dont feel Komatsu can keep up yet. When speaking of machines though the Komatsu dozers are smoother and we have seen zero problems requiring rebuilds. In this area they outlast the CATs by a large margin. How about calling the local dealer and seeing if they can set up a demo? A decent dealer should be able to set that up for you.
In china, a CAT D8R is cost USD 370,000> of course it is D8R-II, but the price is so high, we 'd like to prefer KOMATSU dozer...
Bull You mr electric are wrong. Our company has both D8 and 155's. The last 155 my crew got new last year and doesn't even come close to comparing to even a 10 year old d8. Our last 155 you couldn't turn and lift the blade at the same time. Komatsu said they solved the problem on the new ones by adding another hydraulic pump. WRONG. Try turning and lifting the blade on a new 155. It's turn OR lift not both. This is something we do all the time cleaning up in our quarries and it gets so frustrating with the komatsu that we'd like to run them over the high wall. The ONLY reason we have komatsu dozers is because they are cheaper than cats. The last one being around 50000 cheaper. Komatsu product support isn't close to cats and forget about resale. These are facts from using both and dealing with both companies service.
Cat will hold the resale value higher, also you will never match Cats product support ( a thing most purchasers overlook ) if downtime is a concern ( which it usually is ) then go Cat and the parts will be there faster and cheaper
Well I sorry to dig this one up but I can help alot. We run 5 155Ax-6, 1 155AX-5, and 1 D8T with a new one to be traded next week. The 155 are some of the best machines we have got about 20k hours in 3 years with no major problems. We usually have to do the injector pumps and injectors, turbo, rails and front idlers, and all rollors. The Komatsu has a engine dampner that will have to be replaced and the finals may have to do rebearings maybe. We use to run the D8R's but they couldn't hold up, engines and toqrue converters, and idlers wern't holding up. The only thing now our Komatsu are working is the Hydro pump. There is a bad design problem but they have covered throughout the warranty. We just now started using the new T models and the one we are getting next week is a Ter 4 engine. The Komatsu has more HP but the Cat climbs better. We have 5800 hrs on our Cat we got last December. We run 24/7 and need good machines as were are in the coal business. If any of you guys need help I'm very good with the 155's.
i work with a dozer komatsu d7g, it has a problem when it steer to the left, it does not turn. anybody can help me? thank you...