Hi All, I recently purchased a late 60's ** 2200 TLB. I paid less than scrap, and it runs and drives, all the hydraulics work. There is a knock in the motor, and I would like to tear it down to investigate. It's a Perkins AD3.152. I'm looking for some advice on a few fronts... I don't have a garage big enough to park the whole unit under. If I remove the hoe and front end loader, I could fit it in my garage but I imagine removing the hoe would be a real pain? In order to investigate the knock, I would have to at the very least pull the oil pan. Is an in-frame rebuild worth it or should I just pull the motor? I realize this means splitting the tractor... I could remove the front end loader, and get the tractor within a few feet of my garage door so I could pull the motor in on the hoist... To complicate things a bit more, I have a gravel driveway. In my area cheap backhoes aren't plentiful, so I would like to revive this one. Any/all advice is appreciated .
I would try hard to get it inside. Your loader will be easy to remove. Remove the loader lift cylinders from the top end and just tie them up in the retracted position. You may have to remove the sub frame but back into the garage and then you can get it out of your way if it must come off. Your engine may slide ahead enough to leave it on. Blowing the picture up and looking closer it appears that the hoe just bolts on at the back in front of the outriggers. I would lower the outriggers with the boom out and down on the ground pull the bolts. You probably only have one hose in and out from the tractor to the hoe. You most likely will have to reconnect them hydraulic hoses to each other or the hydraulic pump could prevent the motor from turning over. Failure to do so has caused damage in the past. When you put it back on connect the hoses first, than you can use the hoe outriggers to help line he bolts back up. Thats the way I did it on my 1964 Super Power Major and it went well. Good luck and keep up posted.
What old iron said make sure you connect the hoses.
Makes sense. I'll look it over tonight... Does anyone have a source for a manual?
I'd bet the backhoe is fairly easy to remove. On my 65 Ford 3500 (723 hoe) the backhoe has a pair of pins on the bottom that sit in half round cups on the tractor end and a pair of clamp arms held down by a bolt on the top. Removal is a simple matter of loosening the 2 clamp nuts, then supporting the how frame on outriggers and boom, lifting the top bars up, then using outriggers to lift it off the cups and driving tractor out from under it. Then block it up stable, relieve pressure in rams and disconnect/reconnect the main hoses. Takes about 5 minutes tops. I have quick disconnects on mine, may be a bit longer/messier without but still easy. Loader will probably be more of a pain but even that should be simple. Manual may be a bit of a pain. Probably there's 3 different manuals - one for the base tractor, one for the loader and one for the hoe. You'll need to figure out what the model number is for each and then look under that. These older machines aren't integrated the way the true TLBs are, they're still essentially a farm tractor with standard attachments. The good side of this is that many of the main tractor parts are likely the same or very close to standard farm tractor stuff and hence easier to find. Downside is the overall unit isn't as strong and it's sometimes hard to get parts/info.
I don't know what to tell you. I think that oil pan is stressed, that is, there's no tractor frame taking the weight, it's all carried by the engine and the heavy cast iron oil pan. The bell housing is bolted to the pan as well as the engine, maybe the same on the front also? That might mean you have to split the tractor at least a few inches to even get the oil pan off. To take the loader off of the loader frame you'll make a mess with the hoses. To take the loader frame off of the tractor, there are two bolts on each side holding that frame to the axle, they go clear through the frame, which is also the hydraulic reservoir, and if they're rusted inside that tube, they'll be a royal PITA to drill out once you break off the end. Check the bolts first, if the bolts don't come loose easily, then suspend the loader from a tree or something similar, and take the front end off, then the engine off of the rest.
Good point, forgot the pan is structural. On my ford it's also the front axle mount, so pretty much impossible to pull the pan in the tractor. I would leave the lift rams and loader frame on the tractor and take the arms/bucket off. You'll have to disconnect the tilt hoses, but should make much mess if you relieve the pressure first. Pulling the loader frame is alot more stuff and work I think. Still have to break hydraulic hoses somewhere too, so same issue with a mess. That being said, you may still need to pull the loader frame to get the engine out - have to look at your setup to see what interferes.
Are the "retract" hoses on the loader arms run into the top of the cylinder rod on that one?
I own a ** 35 tractor with a perkins motor of that vintage as well and have had it for 30 years and it always sounds like it has a knock, but that is just how it sounds. I would try to find someone with some expereice with Perkins motors to come over and listen to it before you go to an more trouble. I would bet that all is just fine.
You make a good point. I think we all assumed that it was known to be a bad bearing, or the like, knock. It could very well be a fuel knock although I don't remember our 6-234 perkins making any such noise. Just black smoke under load but easy on fuel. Go figure.
Are the injectors vertical or at an angle? the angle injectors are the direct injection engine which will have more diesel knock. You can also loosen an injector line to check to see if the noise goes away on that cylinder. Do the valves. And then take the the injectors out to get tested and do a compression test. Those are much easier things to check than taking the oil pan off.
AD3-152 is direct injection, came out in mid to late 1964. An ** 35 is older with indirect injection, 3A-152. Maybe check injectors first or have a Massey dealer listen to the engine. The AD3-152 was the most popular engine put in a tractor and arguably the best engine ever made in it's H.P. range. I have a 1965 MF135 UK and it runs as good as when it was new.
It sounds a bit more violent than a fuel knock. The exhaust was left open to the elements for a year or so, so I'm sure some damage was done. I put a working oil pressure gauge on it last night, and it had 45 psi at a bit above idle. I suppose it could just be normal noise. What makes me think it isn't, is that I hear a knocking noise when I am cranking the motor over with the starter, before the engine is running. The oil pan does look structural. I've attached some pics of the hoses, so I'm assuming I would disconnect the two hoses to the hoe, cap them, and then put a hose between the in and out on the valve? Loader hoses are at the bottom of the FEL control. For the front end loader, it looks like it would be easiest to remove the pin from the lift cylinders, and the pins where the arm attach to the subframe, and three hoses to remove the loader. so would I need to pipe those through as well? In the meantime, I'll adjust the valves and do a compression test.
Does that machine have a tandem pump feeding the hoe? The center picture which I assume feeds the hoe looks to be three hoses. If thats the case it would have two supplies and one return allowing multiple functions at one. If so you may have to tee the two supplies togather to the return. Normally on a tandem setup one supply goes into the end of the backhoe control bank and the other goes in the middle. The return comes out the other end. I would expect the larger to be the return as is needs to carry the oil from both supply lines. Really need more info to tell for sure. How long has it run with the knock? The exhaust may have a bleed hole in the bottom so it may not have got water in the engine even with the exhaust open. Was there water in the oil? Edit: The hoses may be the same size. Picture may be deceiving.
The three hoses go to the front end loader from the loader control. The two large hoses at the bottom of the loader control go to the backhoe. I'm not sure how long it ran with knock, or if it even had one when the previous owner stopped using it. It was stuck in a horse pasture and didn't run when I bought it. I had to get it running in the field to move it for transport. It had a big leak in the injector return line, which is why he parked it. No water in the oil before I ran it, but it was gray when I drained it after I ran it to load it on the truck. There was plenty of watery oily black liquid that came out of the exhaust when I first cranked it. I assume the drain would be obvious if it had one? I think It was rebuilt at some point, there was a overheat tag on the cylinder head (like the ones jasper uses.)
That changes things a little bit. You might get lucky, but that doesn't sound good from here. The backhoe hoses have to be connected, not capped, if the engine is going to run. The loader hoses can be capped because they will only be pressurized if you activate the valve. If you pull the injectors to do a compression test, you could try to do a rough piston height measurement to see if you bent a rod, or maybe that would show up in the compression results? It could still be a sticking valve that rusted open?
I'm with Delmer, that doesn't sound good, however, about 18 yrs ago I bought a Ford 4500 b'hoe because it was knocking. A friend of mine rebuilt the engine for a customer and a year later it started knocking, so he took it on trade for a 555C. He let it sit a few years and I bought it. I planned to rebuild it, but it had good oil pressure at warm idle, so I figured it wasn't a bearing. I used it hard for about 5 yrs, until I bought a 580 sK. The 4500 is still my around-the-shop machine, still knocking. I figure it must be a wrist pin.
Another thing I noticed is that the injection pump timing mark is not aligned with the one on the case. I'm assuming that it could have been timed from the gear placement in the timing case with out regard for the timing marks on the pump? Here's a video of it running when I first got it running and moved: https://youtu.be/munKtTlorOM It stopped smoking after I changed the oil. The knock is more noticeable with the exhaust on.
It sounds labored to me on all the cylinders. Your injecton pump timing is probably off if the marks don't align. That could definitely cause a fuel knock and crappy running. I would start with retiming and insure it is timed correctly. Edit: On the oil being milky after running that first time it probably had some water seperated into the bottom of the oil pan that had dripped thru the pistons. It may not show when you pulled the dipstick when it was settled out. It doesn't take much moisture to turn oil milky looking. About once a year I try to crack the drains on my old equipment, especially the ones that had to be outside, just to see if any condensation has gathered. Its quite amazing how much they collect when in a humid climate.
Well I flushed the fuel tank, adjusted the valves, installed a new lift pump, and aligned the injection pump marks. I think it may sound worse now than it did before. It's blowing oil out of the exhaust too. I think I'm going to bit the bullet and take it apart. https://youtu.be/1ZZacgp_L3c
Does anyone have any advice on splitting? Does the front end come off first, or do I split it in the middle and then remove the engine?
Post #6 is how I would do it. You can do that by propping up the loader frame and using an engine hoist to remove the front end, then the engine. Use a couple sheets of plywood if you have to do it on gravel.
Got the bucket off and positioned the tractor in front of my garage for tear-down. I wasn't anticipating the front end becoming so light with the removal of the bucket. I had to steer the tractor with the hoe... like a rudder.
I've been busy with other work and other projects... Finally got the engine out. Should I replace the transmission input shaft seal, or anything else on the transmission while I have the engine out?
Spent some time on this over the weekend. I removed the head. The number 1 cylinder is washed clean, there is definitely valve to piston contact. Seems like there is some slop in the piston rod/movement when I turn the crank. I won't know for sure until I remove the oil pan. The head gasket was intact but there was some coolant in the piston recess... not sure if its from when I removed the head or it was leaking gasket. I am wondering if the clean cylinder could be due to poor compression in that cylinder? If the injector is squirting fuel in that cylinder, but it isn't firing, will it wash the cylinder like that?
Also when it was running, a lot of oil was coming from the exhaust.
Found the source of the knock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuzSw_knWIU The rod bearing was completely gone, just pieces in the oil plan. I found an 8 inch piece of dipstick floating around in the cylinder. Must have broken off and been abandoned by the previous owner.
Thought I would bring some closure to this... I ended up doing a total engine rebuild. New crank, one new rod, new sleeves, pistons, bearings, head rebuilt, new injectors, flywheel/pressure plate resurface, new clutch, etc. Had some problems along the way, machine shop cracked a sleeve, machine shop also neglected to swap a spacer on the new crank (which is didn't realize until the engine was almost completely together.) Finally all back together and running like it should, just in time to put it away for the winter. I have a few things to address before I put it to work. Need to flush the trans fluid, and deal with a small crack on the hoe arm. Also have a pin/bushing on the hoe that has a tremendous amount of wear. If anyone has any suggestions on how to effectively deal with that, I would greatly appreciate it.