Got a phone call from our JD salesman Friday. Wanted to discuss the changes coming concerning Tier IV technology. He said everything Deere builds after 1 July 2013 will use Urea. Said CAT would be going that route by the end of the year. We've got a two year old JD770G with Interim Tier IV technology. I remember when we were considering trading I had a discussion with the salesman and with folks on here about what "Interim" meant. Everyone said, oh don't worry about it, there won't be any more changes, what you see is what you'll always see in regards to Tier IV technology. Now here we go with another change...... Now I'm wishing we had waited two years to trade into this latest change. One of two things is gonna happen here. 1. Our machine is gonna be worth more because it's pre-Urea so it'll pay off in the end. 2. Our machine isn't going to be worth as much because legislation will pressure pre-Urea machines out of the market. Whatta you guys think?? Anyone got any more info to add to what I've heard??:Banghead Edit: Forgot to mention, salesman said this change will add $12K to the cost of the machine. Interim Tier IV added $20K to the cost.
ovrsd, From what I have seen your sales guy is correct, Cat, Komatsu, and Deere are all going to add Urea for their TierIV final engines in construction class machines. Mining and utility may not have to use Urea. Timelines for intorduction may be different for each manufacturer based on emission credits and other factors. I think there will be premiums payed for Tier 3 and TierIV interim, unless you are in some of the urban areas that are requiring engine Tier minimums on government funded road/construction projects. Because of the changes intenally of engines (fuel system,combustion chamber) it appears that it would be cost prohibitive to modify Tier IV interim machines to TierIV final.
We went to trade shows and read many publications and cross checked this knowledge to the dealer('s)(s'). We ended up teaching the dealer/sales person. Where and how they obtained their information is quite curious.... You see, I am in California where the heavy hand of emission regs is a daily nausea causing event. I will probably be sick with worry about compliance and how to achieve it more so than if I breathed the diesel exhaust fumes! The export of final engines may pose a problem because of the fuel. This may result in a change to the value. The quantity sold of the interim tiers may gaffe their value due to long term parts issues. Note: the day the engine control computer is no longer sold is the day that engine is essentially obsoleted? Oh and by the way: Pay attention to these words TPEM - if this is on the engine id plate you may be complying but perhaps in a manner you are not aware of. "Caveat emptor", dear reader and fellow HEF member.
Thanks for the info guys. I'm fortunately not in an environment where over regulation would dictate what type of machine we use. We are rural, governmental road district. My concerns are at trade-in time. We always try to buy a machine equipped to be appealing to Construction Contractors who usually buy our used machine. We delayed trading into this Interim Tier IV machine for a year to see if this was going to be the end result of this legislation. Now it's obvious it wasn't. The way I understood it the Tier IV Final will still use the particulate filter with the addition of Urea. I don't live in an area that would cause me to put emissions on my list when choosing engine types. But I will say one thing, this machine definitely runs clean. The inside of the exhaust pipe looks like it's never been started. Absolutely no soot or discoloration.
Wait for the other shoe to drop folks... there are already some draft TIER 5!!!!! documents floating around out there for certain engine types and sizes! Couple more years it will all have to be fusion or at least hydrogen fuel cell, or you won't be able to turn a wheel. Cheers!
I haven't seen enough used Tier IV interim engines yet to say that there is a drop in trade values. They are too new for people to be putting them on the market even as trade ins. When you do see the trades of that era start to show up on dealers lots the type and condition of the machine itself will determine the trade value and the retail asking prices. The only thing that I think you will see is the stuff that is Tier I and older losing value because at some point the government is going to tell people they can't run those engines anymore. I'm thinking that the hope for the wags will be that those machines are so worn out that they aren't worth anything anyway. Tier I started in 1996 and the supposed life of construction machines was going to be twenty years. Unfortunately the suit and tie people didn't take into account that there are lots of thirty and forty year old scrapers and haul trucks still around running just fine. There is lots of big iron in logging where new stuff is at unsupportable prices to buy new. There are places where locomotive engines and ships will have to re-power soon or they will go to scrap. As for Tier 5, you all have the ability to short circuit that kind of thing. Just vote for people that have some common sense and quit sending the current batch of slobs back to congress.
And have you noticed the new computer managed hour meter's post idle time? I'm thinking in the future if you idle more than 10% of your total hours your gonna be blessed with a tax on the amount of idle time over the base 10%.
Good info guys. Thanks for chiming in. As I said earlier I live and work in an area that isn't completely driven by environmental concerns. That doesn't mean we don't care about environment. Just means we are lightly populated enough that no one hovers over us. But we are still controlled by the masses when we consume newly manufactured products. I don't see this going away. For some reason the "SKY IS FALLING" environmentalists have gotten control of our government and are not going to easily let go. Grandpa, I'll hafta play with our machine's computer readouts. I'm not sure it tracks that. My neighbor runs a CAT 140M and he was telling me all the stupid little things he could gather from it's computer, like how many times it's been in reverse, etc.
I am not sold on tier anything as of yet, they burn more fuel per hour/mile, they require an added material to convert the exhaust but it is unknown what the consequence of that end material will be. Still takes so many btu to generate a hp, for that it takes a fuel quantity, with add-ons or restrictive devices that requires more hp thus more fuel, for all the urea they generate they convert a natural gas component and end up with CO2/Co so are we really gaining anything and so far the urea injection systems seem to be less than trouble free especially in cooler weather.
Some processes that already produced copious amounts of CO2 are places where they install urea manufacturing...in fact, they tout the recapture of the CO2 in this concept. Ref wiki, google and others using search 'carbon dioxide production in urea production'. When this rule first was introduced quite some time ago, some engineers that worked in the power industry on combined cycle etc took one look at The Rule and said, "You will end up using SCR. How you will do it is absolutely unknown as the present equipment is big and bulky." One interesting relationship is how someone else's 'virtue and/or altruism' gets translated into me writing a check and/or signing a great big loan for new(er) iron.
Heheheheheh.... I don't care who you are,,, that's funny,,,, and so true!!!!
I have a highway tractor with DEF ( urea) so far all i have seen is a decrease in fuel mileage , decreased power and the added cost of Urea..The vapours off the extra urea i carry in the winter ( pumps don't work when it gets cold) have corroded my wrenches i carry in a tool box ..If you can avoid it i would as long as possible. If the machine sits idle for months there is talk of the system corroding and needing replacement parts to reactivate it..A poor design i feel... I have noticed JCB and some other smaller diesels going back to a mechanical injection system for fuel , not electronic..
Alot of tier 3/IT4 engines arent lasting long enough to make the trade in. The diesel emission standards for tier one and two were decided by the epa and carb when Bush Sr. was in office......so,uh....yeah.