To Long Don't Read? I can't level with the loader bucket, please help. Hi all - first time poster, I'm in a HEO apprenticeship program for TLB, Dozer, Exc. Prior to that, I've had no experience outside a lawn mower (not even construction industry exp) Anyway, been on the TLB now for about 3 weeks in practical training (I do on the job training for 2000 hours to become journeyma). For the most part I have down controls and operation, and I have a good handle on the hoe controls (CAT 2 stick). But, with the front loader bucket I'm really struggling on grading / smoothing and back-filling. At first I kept digging in and then up so I'd get the wave effect. Really issue is I can't yet tell when to raise or lower bucket when back-dragging, or when to adjust cutting edge angle up or down. I either seem to cut in deep, or cut nothing at all (isn't it awesome when you go to dump the material you just "cut" and your bucket is actually empty!!!) When the instructor walks with me and I follow his hand signals I do a much better job, but on my own I suck. Others in my group had some previous training/exp so they did it really well. Other new people picked it up fast too and do a good job. I'm not too worried about my hoe controls, D cycles etc, it kind of seemed to come naturally. Not really sure what I'm asking, but I need to be able to level, but the problem is we don't have much more time on the TLBs. Around here most Operators hate the TLB and go for Exc/Dozer, but they say TLB is one of the hardest to operate and if I can nail this I can likely hit Exc and Dozer np. I'm the type of person that goes balls out, so if I'm on a machine I want to do it really well, and not half ass my way through it and constantly worry about jumping from company to company. Any thoughts?
Practice Slow down, feel it in the seat of your pants. Practice. It comes with Experience. Tom
Sometimes it helps to have the the loader bucket about half full of material. When back-dragging practice with the loader control in the float position. Tilt the loader bucket cutting edge up slightly when back-dragging so that the rear of the bucket is dragging a small amount of material. Practice, practice practice ! It takes a lot of time to learn all the different things you need to do to get a level cut and fill area.
Keep an eye on the top of the bucket, it can signal subtle changes in the loader bucket base rather than the 'indicator'. Know that the machine is rubber tired and will respond to the weight of the loader. Visualize the slope downward of the start of the dig and watch that point on the ground: when the front tires hit that point the machine will angle down exacerbating the loader cutting edge to dig deeper - you must compensate for all these things. ~ Watch the hand motions of successful operators to see the relatively rapid motion to remove the dead zone of the controls then the precision of the hand as it adjusts for the precise hydraulic control motion. The motion also compensates for the change in hydraulics due to engine rpm.... .....best wishes!
I'm not that great at grading either but I found it important to adjust the bucket level indicator and use it. If my cutting edge is the least bit down I can't go forward without it digging in. Having it flat to slightly up improves my chances.
A TLB is the last choice for smooth grading with the front bucket, the bucket is just so far out front and the tires have too much slop for the weight of the bucket. Even a short wheelbase skidsteer is easier to grade with. I assume you have a bucket level indicator and know how to use it? That will be the starting point for any forward grading. Digging down in packed material with any sort of grading accuracy is not going to work with a TLB. Especially if there's slop and play in the pins, you'll have too wide of a uncontrollable slop window between digging to deep and skimming over. You should be able to spread loose material out fairly well though. One method is to aim the cutting edge way down, like 45 degrees and adjust the height with the bucket curl as you go. If you dig into hard ground then it will do the same gouging and skipping that it does with the bucket edge near level. Backdragging diagonally can help sometimes to get rid of the ripples. That's more of a trick than helping you with the controls.
Ask for some extra hours on the machine and practice practice practice. That's really the only way to learn. The instructor will probably give you some extra time if you ask.
I agree with Delmer that a backhoe loader is NOT the best choice for grading. I have a little John Deere with a landscape rake that will run circles around my backhoe in that department. You can actually smooth areas with the bottom of the hoe bucket better than trying to use the loader. I recently had a road done with crushed concrete and I needed to fill the low spots before the grader and fill arrived. The dirt I purchased made a solid hump in two of the former low spots and I tried to smooth out with the loader with no success. I finally used the backhoe bucket teeth to break up the soil then the flat face to smooth it by raking side to side. After the road was graded and covered with crushed concrete I have been able to keep it smooth with the landscape rake.
First of all you got to level a spot your TLB stay at so that your rear wheels be at level with area. If needed do it with back hoe. Second when levelin backwards put the front bucket on ground open jaw then give it a slight angel forward or outward I guess you got what i mean. And drag it backwards. If you can not catch right angle, work with back side of the bucket put it on the ground turn it upwards at max angle and drag it back. When levelin front way, take a full backet of gravel or whatever substence your work with turn outward 45degree and slightly keep it above the ground let the ground fronm the bucket fill all holes that come along the way. Important do it very slowly, it is better for one not seat at that, do it standing up to have a better view. The rest comes with practise.
[QUOTE="Honcho, post: 770985, member: 55694", do it standing up to have a better view. The rest comes with practice.[/QUOTE] Junot51; For your safety don't ever operate a T/L/B standing up ! If you do bad things will happen eventually.
Amen on the "bad things eventually"...... I was able to add fill material, a bucket at a time. to my future building pad. While using the machine weight to compact. Roughly 60 x 100. The ground was gentle graded initially, so my material addition was nothing to about 3 ft of rise. Worked on it over several weeks time ( odd hours here and there) I did check my initial "small pad" for level... and just eyeballed or "felt" it from there. At the end I put a 'scope' on it and was danged surprised to see how close I ended up. Mostly front pushing dumped loads, while the bucket was loaded. Back dragging ( also loaded) to help flatten while compacting by driving over...( and over and over). ..... all the while staying seated!! Also 'built' a driveway on a side hill traverse the same way.
Junot51; For your safety don't ever operate a T/L/B standing up ! If you do bad things will happen eventually.[/QUOTE] Sorry But I do it quite often. The rules are made to be broken.
Sorry But I do it quite often. The rules are made to be broken.[/QUOTE] Crazy Russians.
I've got a 1948 International Farmall M OS-6 tractor that has two options for operator position - either seated on a spring suspension seat or standing, chariot style. It has a large hand clutch lever that makes it easy to jump on and off to hook up a chain, load or unload a trailer, or whatever. It was designed to be operated while standing. Great machine. Starts right up and runs like a top.
Grady ; I grew up on a farm and am an FFA Alumni. Standing up on farm tractors was quite acceptable and commonly done in those days. But, IMHO when there is a front-end loader bucket on a tractor of any type it is quite dangerous to stand while it is contact with the ground. Or even above the ground. Curious observation in your last post, isn't a Farmall M and an OS6 two completely different tractors ?
Tinkerer, I'm not really sure about the models but it's definitely an OS6 but there's an M on the hood where most say OS6. Maybe the hoods are interchangeable and someone swapped the hood before I got it? It's a real workhorse. I think it was designed for orchard work but these days I use it mostly for getting out firewood and logs - unless someone gets stuck in the mud or snow. I have plowed and harrowed with it but it has no hydraulics so not the ideal setup for that but you use what you've got. It has the wide front end so it's stable and it's low so it can get through the woods where those taller tractors can't go. I wasn't advocating for standing up while using a loader - my tractor doesn't have one - and I've never even attempted it but I would like to be able to see the front bucket like you can in some skid steers but even standing up won't give you that viewpoint. The hand clutch on my tractor is what makes driving while standing up possible.
I used to have to maintain the ground on an equipment yard and would use whatever was parked there to keep the surface smooth and level. What I found that worked for me on TLBs was to tilt the bucket most of the way forward so that I could see the bottom of the cutting edge touching the ground. I started this going backwards and got enough feel after awhile that I could do it forwards also. Once I had the feel of where the cutting edge was I would curl the bucket back slightly so the edge was flatter on the ground for leveling. I also put the loader in float when back dragging. If I had to move a bunch of material like a big hump I would set the bucket level and just cut the hump off and pick up the excess material as much as possible. I would then spread the material that was in the bucket by lifting it up high enough that I could see what was spilling out while I was moving. I found the trick about trying to grade going forward was that if the bucket bit into the ground I stopped at that point and back dragged to fill that dip. The front of the machine is light and will feel every dip and bump and it will show at the bucket edge every time the front wheels hit them. Good Luck!
You have to be really careful grading going forward with the bucket titled down at around 45 degs. If it digs in the gouging will be the least of your problems if you bend or break your bucket cylinders. Spreading loose material with the bucket off the ground is OK but trying to level packed ground isn't a good idea. No different than idiots in skid steers clearing snow and ice with the bucket tilted straight down, the front wheels a foot off the ground and going full speed. A careful operator can use the bucket tilted down going forward but they go slow so they can "feel" what the bucket is doing. It starts to dig in, they stop.
One question folks are you lot backhoe operators or country boy traktor amatuars. I see no problem at all operating in a standing up position, it is mostly needed when use a 4wheel stear TLB. cause big front wheels and high hood provide poor view.
Smtimes i also stand up when using a back backet to dig very deep
There is a lot of opinion and personal tricks in this thread. As a loader, skip and tlb operator, you learn how edges work, especially on pneumatic rubber tire machines. After a lot of practice on a skip loader, you learn how to use 2 edges at once. On a loader bucket, it's a little different, but has some of the same concepts (more so on a tlb bucket. Some loaders you can't back drag with the back of the bucket.). So, some concepts you need to know... Leveling the bucket to the ground. If you have a level gauge, JDs have them, you can guesstimate off the gauge for easier and faster initial movements. If you dont, you need to find both edges. Tilt until the front and back of the bucket sit on the ground. This would be your "level" setting in loose material. You won't cut if you dont press down on the bucket, but you also won't fill unless something is a decently high bump, probably over a quarter to half inch depending on blade wear. Knowing the shape of the bucket helps. The bucket itself is flat. Then you slap a blade on the bottom. That's an extra half inch to inch. It gets rounded with time, making the cut angle change. Always keep this in mind. Every machine is different. It's safe to assume you are in soft material as you are in the training area. Here is the best, and most consistent way to grade forward without cutting in soft material(which is hard on a tlb or skip loader! Dont feel bad. Most can't do it.). You start at "level" on your flat spot, make a pass, and adjust from there. Then you tip you bucket down so you have a small gap under it. Raise the bucket off the ground, and set the blade back down without pushing down. Buckets have slop! The slop makes it hard to get the angle right. You can see the back of the bucket, but you can't see the blade. This is how you find it. You want no down pressure on it. Why? When you cut, you put down pressure on it naturally with dirt and tire flex. This is why the bucket angle matters. The angle doesn't change IF you set it with it's own weight on the pins. Now, the patience part. Make a pass with it "level". I say this because of the loose material. On hard surfaces, you want the edge at the ground so the blade runs ON the hard surface, and you cut down accordingly. If you do this in soft, it will dip in. Due to the soft, "level" is a good starting point. The goal is, drive forward while keeping bucket pressure off the ground. You will know this because you can still stear. If the bucket is too hard down, you only go straight. Stay in first gear and feel for resistance. If the bucket drags hard, you are cutting down too hard. If there is no resistance, you aren't making contact. You want contact without force. In soft it is hard to feel. Since feel isn't always there, you also see. You have 2 feet of "lag" between feel and sight. You see what is happening at the back of the bucket. 3 things you have to look at. In front of the bucket. What is spilling out the sides of your cut. How deep under the grade next to the area you are working. Experience will give you an eye of the amount of material in your path vs spilling out the sides vs going into the bucket. This takes practice, patience, and an eye on all 3 of those things. Too much on the sides and no cut? Blade isn't down Too deep? Blade is too down. No spill and no cut? Bucket isn't down. Etc. You can practice your bucket angle and feeling resistance with a pile of material, and then go to grading. Again every machine is different. Tlb bucket grading is almost never perfect. Practice, take a pile on LEVEL ground. Put the blade only on the ground at what you think should be "level filling bucket". Pick it up and see if it goes up or down. Dump it back out and try again. Back drag holes to try to keep the surface around it level. You can drag some of the pile out 10 feet, and approach a "grading level cut" to feel the resistance. Cut it with only half the bucket, and watch the side on level ground. You can watch it go up and down while feeling the machines reaction and resistance, then see the results. Once you can cut level, try the whole width, then clean the sides and see how well you did with no surface to guage(side spill will visually hide the grade you are trying to match.). Practice, practice. You can learn more with a pile of dirt that grading an area if you pay attention to the details. Once you know the feel and details, applying them on a larger scale is easier. General rules for loader bucket grading. 1. Cutting is never flat. Literally almost never will you cut flat with a loader bucket. You can scrape flat. Cutting flat in hard material is luck. If you cut into hard material, it dips. Then you have to level THE CUTTING EDGE to level. Your tires drive over that cut, then you must adjust again. Second set of tires, another adjustment. This is near impossible to be perfect. Why? Wear on the blade, weight of machine, quality of material. All things affect the flatness. This is where skiploaders shine. You have a cutting edge and a dragging edge. They are around 8 to 12 inches apart. It still takes practice, but is easier to level. Same concept applied to a loader bucket.... your cutting and dragging edges are on the blade itself. 2 feet out before you ever see what happens. This makes it a "feel" that takes practice and patience, and changes in different materials. 2. Dragging makes things balance. Not flat. The flatter the bucket, the less material moved when dragging. In soft, this changes with down pressure. Now, if you tip the bucket down, you can scrape, see progress instantly, and do a decent job of moving material. This is based on how flat the surface your back tires are sitting on is.... but this is getting long. 3. You cut the approximate angle of the surface your back tires are on. If you want to cut a slope, you have to cut a lower pass, and then cut the "step" out. The same goes with all loaders, including skidsteers. You can also fill the upper side, then cut to fill between the 2 levels. It's a process. A note, when cutting, if you turn, the inside corner cuts deeper. A general rule, and more exaggerated on wheel loaders, more so on slopes. Anyways. I hope some of this helps at least one of you. I'm sorry it is long. It's much easier to teach this in person.
Great points ! I generally put it all on the ground with some down pressure on it when grading with a front loader . Control the cut or fill with the bucket angle . Damn truck & crane traffic ! Those A-Holes tore up the road to begin with and then have the nerve to complain about the pot holes . Another day on the Ford 4000 . LOL
I try to use the blade only as much as possible. Dragging the back edge of the bucket a lot can cause early failure. I'm not saying you can't use it. Just keep in mind that if you are operating it daily, the wear adds up quicker than you may think. Some companies frown upon that if they have loader bucket failure experience.
I am a hobby operator but I bought a cab model so I can sit in comfort while I operate. Thinking back to my childhood I was taught to drive a tractor before I could reach the pedals sitting on the seat. I dragged many a tobbaco sled standing on my Granddaddy's Farmall Super A.
lots of great advice for you to use here, my 2 cents would be - on a TLB your cutting edge will tilt (side to side) the same amount and the at the same time as your rear wheels. so they have to be level. -take small short passes to start until you have a level pad to work from. - when sitting level (pavement), get out and have a look at the angle of your cutting edge, get it where you it not cutting and that look at your level indicator. On my case its 25% past level?? -as soon as you feel the rear wheels tilt, stop and back up the length of the machine and fill or cut as needed to keep running level. - this might be bad advice for some folks but, if you want a small degree of fall on the pad than swing you hoe to the desired "low side" this will tilt your rear wheels (and cutting edge) just until you you have a starting pad. but remember that hoe sticking out to the side is a recipe for sudden and unexpected stops,turns,crunching noises and costly repairs to something.