I have been giving much consideration to expanding my small company and getting into line boring. This is how I ended up last year in this forum, while doing a web search for information in regards to line boring. Needless to say just a ton of good information along with some great pictures of different jobs that are being done around the world on here. My note book is filling up. The sharing of information has been great, one of the reasons I have remained in the trades for this many years, even though the knees & back are shot. I had the opportunity this winter to assist (be in the way) in a small line boring job and was that much more excited about the prospects of the work. There is something about the process of line boring /bore welding that seems to fit my way of thinking and the experience I have gained as a Millwright. I think there is money to be made in my location and within the Marine industry doing high quality line boring like I have seen done by others on this forum. The project I was involved in this winter used the Climax BB5000 system and I was recommended to go with them when I take the jump. I have looked at the Bore Repair System, York's system, American Machine Tools and also have found some home made setups. I have noticed that the costs will vary as much as buying your tools at say Harbor Freight vs. Snapon or Proto for example. I am in the process of putting together costs of the different systems, I would like to walk into the bank with some information not just "give me some money." When my work slows down in mid summer, which does in my line of repair work, possibly renting a line boring machine and do some self learning in the shop instead of sitting on the porch with the dogs drinking my beverage of choice and watching the afternoon fade away. Any information that could be given in regards to the above systems and/or any other ones as I have seen in this forum or other ones that may be out there also, that are worthy of consideration. If you could let me know why you use your system or prefer one over the other it would be a big help in my ventures down this path. I would like to invest in a good unit, that can be expanded but also don't want to put my company under just yet. Thanks for the help! I am looking forward to hearing any and all information from the pro's. RayF my 17 year old son wants to move to Perth and go to work for Hofmann, thanks for the link in your thread, what a great company and story of how they started. One hell of a apprenticeship program they look to have. Stay out of the bight... Regards, Ray
What sort of line boring work are you chasing? Is their open cut mining in your area? Civil contractors with 30 ton diggers and 938 and 950 size loaders? Hofmanns do about the best apprenticeship program around. It would be a great place to serve time.
We used a hydraulic-drive Climax B5000 system in my last job purely based on previous experience. As you are in Climax's neck of the woods then they would seem to be the obvious choice. Also they do rent line boring machines so that would tick one of your other boxes. RayF, there are no major mining operations up that way. The nearest ones would be in Nevada & Wyoming and I'm sure that they are well catered-for as regards line boring. A good idea about the contractors with small to mid size machines though. With that in mind it might be an idea to have a look at the new thread posted by our friend in Holland regarding his line boring work. See here ....... HeavyEquipmentForums
I bought a Bore Repair System set up, for the price I paid I can't fault it, also you can upgrade as you want. I had work for a line borer but could not get anyone to do it, I had no previous experience, apart from watching a guy use line boring equipment a few times, so I thought I would give it a try. A few practice sessions in the workshop, then out to my first job, all went well, you soon figure out the best way to use the equipment, also read everything on the Forum related to line boring and ask questions these guys have a lot of experience. Don't try to rush the job. It paid for itself in no time.
For us the economics were simple. The complete setup including machine, bars, bore welder, and all accessories cost around $85k IIRC. At the time we were being charged $30k a pop by an outside contractor to bore our loader arms and buckets and at the time we were averaging 3 of those jobs per year. Doing the maths wasn't hard ....... After we got the machine we soon got into doing our truck dump body pivots, grader & loader articulation joints, plus a few more jobs besides. we even started doing all our dozer blades and push arms. The line boring machine had work probably about 50% of the time. However having already paid for it then any idle time it had we weren't losing money.
I'm looking to do small to mid size work. There are a lot of midsize contractors around that I know do not do their own line boring. There is also a large agricultural amount of equipment, plus the timber industry. Within the Marine industrial sector there are a lot of over worked commercial vessels. I saw a company boring the steering system ram's ( 3" bores) on a commercial tug. Doing a search the closest company that does mobile line boring is 80 to 100 miles away. Thanks for the input and information.
If you're thinking of a BB5000 then I would say that your main decision is whether to go for a 1.25" or a 2" bar. A lot will depend on the range of bore diameters that you envisage you will be reconditioning.
I have only contacted Climax and received a quote for rental and have also asked them about used equipment. Is there a significant difference in cost between Climax and York and Bore Repair Systems. I know there is a large difference in price between American Machine Tools. Reading the information between the them it is obvious why. Looking at starting with a 1.25 bar.
You are thinking hydraulic drive I assume..?
The only Climax one I have seen run was electric. I am assuming hydraulic is a large jump in cost, but more bang for the buck. If I recall Tom who has a thread on here and does a lot of boring used a hydraulic power pack and was able to use the unit to also run his cylinder's when pressing in bushings, I could be wrong been awhile since I read through that very informative thread.
Hydraulic drive is not only more powerful but also as you say you can use the hydraulic powerpack for all sorts of other things. I'm not sure what the difference is in price between the two systems but it would be worth your while to investigate. We never looked past hydraulic TBH but then again we were going to be regularly running a 2" bar on up to 12" diameter bores.
I will investigate for sure, definitely want the ability to expand and put together the best package from the start that I don't have to go backwards due to a component that is not sized right. So many choices to make... It's just money
I know a bloke who uses a 21/4 inch climax bar with an electric drive. Its amazing the diameters he does with it. Its a much cheaper option and Climax also has a new motor that is supposed to be the bees knees. Hydraulic will always win out on sheer power though. The 21/4 Climax can be sleeved down with a conversion kit. You can start off with electric and upgrade to hydraulic later on.
I'm looking at the three different manufacturers I listed in my 1st post, trying to not only compare each company's options but also put together a package so when the manufacturer gives me a quote I am sure that I am comparing like products and getting a setup that will cover my needs at least for the beginning of this adventure. The more I learn the more questions keep coming up. I don't want to over spend but also don't want to be caught short right out the gate. I have always invested in quality tools when I worked for contractors and especially now that I work for myself. My biggest customer expects their contractors to be fully tooled, independent, self sufficient and productive. When I make this large investment I want to continue on that path for all I do line boring for.
I think Tomv uses a York boring machine (electric drive) and a Bore Repair System bore welder. Like Nige and RayF have said hydraulic drive has a lot more power, I suppose it all depends on how much $ you want to invest into the initial set up. Small to mid size work then electric drive will do fine, most setups can be upgraded to what ever you need. I use 1 3/4"x 6': 1 1/4" x 6' : 1 1/4" x 3' bars. However I don't do line boring full time, just when a customer needs it.
Thank you daterplant for your input, it all helps in the process of deciding. Wish I could say money was not a worry, but every investment into my company I choose with much considering and some lost sleep. Thanks for the input on your bar sizes, a great help. Which type of boring unit do you run? Regards
Where the difference comes regarding preference in drive systems (hyd vs elec) is bar diameter and length. Daterplant was saying his longest bar is 1-3/4" x 6ft, our longest bar was 2-1/2" x 16ft ....... you need some oomph to drive that before you even touch the tool to the workpiece. Also you have to consider what is going to be the longest bar length of any "regular" job you might do and work your calculations around that. I have no idea how long the shaft tunnel bores on whatever boats you work on are, and therefore what length of a bar would be required. If it was me and a customer came to me wanting a job done that required a bar longer than the longest one in my toolbox I'd price the job to include either buying or renting a bar of a sufficient length to do the job, maybe even buy a bar and charge the rental price of the bar to the customer then you have something to keep for next time instead of sending it back. That's maybe another reason to consider Climax as they are quite close to you and I'm sure they have bars available for rent as well as complete machines.
Climax BB5000 electric (with new reversible motor) would be a good starter kit. U can always upgrade to hydraulic power later. The High-Freak electric is not recommended for field work, per Climax. Check York for borewelders, programmable via logic controller.
Thank you StanRus, do you run the Climax and BB 5000 or a different make or model. I like what I have seen and read so far on the York. Trying to find time to finish putting together a list of what I would like and getting a quote from each manufacturer.
I got the bore repair system. Ordered 3 bars, bore welder, facing attachment, face welding kit, upgrades digital mic, inside diameter gauge, Total came to just around $32,000. That was the price with an educational discount similar to government pricing. Have been very pleased with it so far. Electric drive seems to have plenty of power even for .100 cut. I don't normally take but about .050 at a time but was trying the machine out to see how it performed and motor didnt even pull down any more then with a .050 cut. The bore welder is fairly quick to set up as well. I generally set it up and start to weld one side and I can go ahead and hand weld the other side at the same time. If you are wanting to get job done as fast as you can. Seems the entire machine set up time is quick depending on how bad the bore is worn.
Ship660, what size and how long are your bars? 32K is a reasonably price. Just to rent the Climax BB 5000 is over 2K per week and that is not including a bore welder. I was talking with a guy who has a couple Climax setups and has done some high profile jobs, he said he doubted Climax would deduct the rental cost from a purchase as he has tried in the past. One would think if they got you on the hook it would be a long term thing, not worried about 4 or 5 K when they know you will be coming back to expand your setup. Thanks for your input and the others that have added in too, has been a big help. I know when I had the opportunity to run the 5000 it was a sweet machine, but not cheap, not sure my bank will want to take that risk on me. I will be curious as to when I get some quotes and able to compare the different ones.
I use a B&D unit EV-2500-s type, have a look on the net for the different set ups, most manufactures have got demo videos. Again like Nige has pointed out you need to know what unit will suit your job requirements.
Just had a look on the Bore Repair System site and the setup I've got is now called BRS2
I have 3 bars. a 6' x1.75, 6'x1.25, and 4'x7/8. The 6' ones use 1/2 tool bits and the 4' uses 3/8 tool bits. The set is a BRS4.
Have alook at the Sir Meccanica and ELSA machines aswell
KWD thanks for the info, I will check them out as well.
I'm in Nevada and I've been running a Climax for five years. If you are under six inch bores the electric drive is great. If you are over six inch you will burn up a drive motor every few years. I've burned up two in that time. Part of it I found out later was because I was not running a heavy enough extension cord. As dumb as that sounds, if your drawing a lot of amps it does make a difference. I also run Boretech welders. I've had good luck with the older one but it doesn't have all the extra features. The newer one I run has some great weld buildup programs. They are not cheap but they do work good. I am set up with 2 1/4" bars up to eight foot and I have the reducers to run 1 1/4" bars which are also up to eight foot. Oddly enough the 1 1/4" bars are from an old B&D setup that we retired about the time I started. One thing to remember about boring bars is to make sure you get them drilled with the tool spacing that you want up front. The majority of our bars have 4" tool hole spacing. A couple are 6" and there are a few that are custom. This will save you from trying to get your bearing spacing right and still have some feed travel.
Truckdoctor, thanks for all the great information in your post about your setup, will add it to the information I have gathered so far. Waiting for quotes back from the manufacturers. I'm thinking buying a new truck is easier then this.
Of course it is, there aren't so many options ......
Waiting for quotes, will what happened to the old fashioned telephone response with pricing? I did actually get prices within 10 minutes from 1 US manufacture and 1 South American manufacture via a phone call. @TruckDoc So do you purchase replacement Milwaukee motors from C-max? You can save over 50% by purchasing from a Milwaukee jobber and modifying the motor yourself, doesn't even require disassembly. The new current Eibenstock reversible motor specs 8-to-160 revs per minute, what machining issue would that cause based upon your real world practical experiences?
Climax BB5000 -Rotational drive -Axial feed -12" leadscrew -Tool Kit -(2) single arm bearing mounts -(2) universal bearing mounts -Set up cones -Electric Motor and control -3.6cu hydraulic motor New $23,514 US, used $18,800 US 6ft bar $1329 US, (did not say but am assuming this is a 1-1/4 bar) Would still need to add a bore welder. I think I'm going to go look at new service trucks as Nige said "not so many options"
When I said earlier that going for a hydraulic-drive Climax machine was based on experience, it seems that truckdoctor in Nevada had exactly the same experience as we had with previous Climax electric drive borers.
WM, 4-14ET York with Borewelder will cost $21thou not including boring bars. You priced a 3.6cu" hydra motor, can you assemble your own hydraulic power pack say 5Hp electric motor 6gpm @ 1200psi? If not 5Hp HPP can be purchased from York way cheaper than C-Max. Mounting Arms: 1" plate doesn't matter A36, grade50 etc steel has the same modulus of elasticity without increasing thickness rigidity will be the same. U can hand cut to shape with oxy-ac torch, hand drill and tap the mounting holes, specs are in C-Max pdf file specifications. Boring Bars, hard chromed cylinder rod shafting buy 22ft length, straighten with heat opposite side cold water. Keyway 3/8" machined with Bridgeport type knee-mill. Tool Bit Slots: used round 12mm tool bit holders, purchase from the Italians if you can't find in the US. Why round, just requires drilling a 12mm hole versus drilling-broaching. Hydraulic Motors, 20thou hours typical life cost $280.00ea jobber price. SAE#2 mounting with 1" dia shaft 1/4" drive key. DIY
Thanks for that information StanRUS. All the input has helped, much farther along in the process then my first post. Thanks to all for your insight, opinions and wisdom.
[Q Boring Bars, hard chromed cylinder rod shafting buy 22ft length, straighten with heat opposite side cold water. Keyway 3/8" machined with Bridgeport type knee-mill. Tool Bit Slots: used round 12mm tool bit holders, purchase from the Italians if you can't find in the US. Why round, just requires drilling a 12mm hole versus drilling-broaching. StanRus, hard chromed rod is dificult to doing a keyway, you take a solid carbide endmill?
Do you have a web link for C-Max? EDIT: never mind I just realized that was an abbreviation for Climax. I'm not too hot this morning. lol Greyson
Pretty cloudy on the South coast today too, more coffee!
Yep, solid carbide roughing end mill set to final depth of cut.
We purchase our motors from Climax only because our purchasing department does not have an imagination. I don't know anything about the other motor that you mentioned. I though of adapting a MECO four speed electric motor to the Climax driver. The MECO is normally used for core drilling concrete and I think you can swing a 20" core drill bit with them in low. I haven't been around those since 94 so I haven't kept track of if they are still in business. The four speed gear box would help with setting the bar speed without lowering the motor speed. When I worked in concrete sawing and demolition we had the same problems with the Milwaukee's there as with line boring. The MECO was more serviceable and didn't end the abuse.
it is reversible motor?
Meco Meco motor & gearbox would IMO defeat the purpose of purchasing BB5000, i.e. small sized modular components, RDU & AFU. Eibenstock motor in now Climax's standard electric motor for the BB5000-BB4500, they finally realized REVERSE is necessary to back-spot face or back-bore etc without having to re position the RDU to change rotational direction.
Recommending Climax BB5000, why? 1)…Separate Rotational Drive Unit, OAL = 7.6 inches can be mounted anywhere on the boring bar 2)…Separate Axial Feed Unit, can be mounted anywhere on the boring bar 3)…3 power options, pneumatic (screaming noisy), hydraulic (best) and electric (okay starter kit) To repair-bore 8L-9series dozer lower case ripper bores using any of the commercially available competitive ‘line-boring-systems’ would cost the customer an additional $2000-3000 parts & labor based on $96-105.00 hr current going rate for fully equipped Class7-8 service trucks-mechanics
StanRus, Thanks for the information and pictures, I have been leaning towards the Climax. Hope to visit their factory this coming week. The past two weeks been working in Alaska, the local talent on the project makes one realize there is lots of money to be made by skilled craftsmen who take pride in their work.
Stan, that sure is one tight boring arrangement, this is the first "mid-bar" setup that I have seen and thanks for the pics. Regards, Bob
WM BB5000 w/hydraulic 5hp unit, damaged feeder (broken feed adjustment screw-no big deal) ebay used buy now $13,650 http://www.ebay.com/itm/CLIMAX-PORT...29273a1&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=222087772907
At that price it would be rude not to ........
Boring Nige, Using G&L Davis Block Tooling (2 cutter bits) equates to 2.5-3X the metal removal rates. Easy to plow 0.400" per side roughing I need a non-modified BB5000 for demo purposes. RDU-AFU and 1 spherical bearing = $9,380.00
Looks good, but tough to spend that kind of money sight unseen and no guarantees.
Keep in mind the power unit is three phase, just a thought.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bortech-306...772907?hash=item33b5767aeb:g:A6MAAOSwYIhWlWFS
TBH I wouldn't even consider single phase for powering a 5HP motor.
It works fine if you have a 200 amp service, but 5HP is about the practical limit. For portable work a nice little Kubota or similar diesel would be sweet.
I run a 10HP 3 phase hydraulic power unit like that on a 60 amp single phase service, it works fine. It's probably putting out 7 or 8 HP, but that's enough. And it might last only half as long as it would on better power, but that's irrelevant for the number of hours it's run vs lifespan of an electric motor like that.
Thanks for all the input great advise and information. One of the problems I have is in the spring & summer time I do a lot of remote field work, flying 2 or more job boxes into remote locations, needless to say weight is always a problem when packing. The more remote you get the smaller the job box has to be to fit on the planes, that well don't need an intercom as you can hear the pilot from your seat, if you get my drift. Would love to have a hydraulic unit for the shop.
Williams would love to see some pics of some of your jobs especially flying in and out and some of that stuff to this ole ks guy sounds real interesting Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Flying 'out-back' was how Ron York got started. BB1149 2-1 ratio helical geared RDU was replaced with current BB5000 worm-geared RDU so electric motors could be offered. 5Hp power-pack price jumped from $7000thou-ish to $14thou-ish after Team, Inc. acquired Climax from Paul Strait. NO REVERSE, that's nuts! Almost every job is compromised from a productivity point of view and even extending service life of the components. Making $$$$$ is about bidding the job for $XXX per-diameter-inch, the quicker the job can be completed the greater the profits!
hi Ray, I use a Elsa sc40 easy line boring machine. Works good and is a good starting point for line boring. It depends what kind of jobs your looking for to invest in your equipment. I think the Elsa or even a Sir mecannica are the best bang for your buck when you don't go bigger then 400mm. My opinion on the Climax is that its a nice machine but its so expensive (for the smaller holes even to expensive) thats its gonna take a long time to see the return. And the job done by my Elsa is just as good as with a Climax.. But if i would have a lot off work with holes bigger then 400mm i would go to the climax system. They do have plus points in those sizes and they have a lot more special tools for it. In the bigger holes is where the bigger money is, usely in Holland that would be on the shipyards and the petro industrie. But i personaly keep my hand off those clients, i dont like the additude on those jobsites and safety is a bit overrated on those spots.. Rater work on some excavators or wheelloaders instead. Just do a little math and go with it! Good luck
System Pricing I am not familiar with bore repair cost in Holland. Return on investment purchasing Climax depends of course on the exact package chosen, say $35,000.00. Independent mechanics can do $30,000.00 gross per month @ $96.00per hour. @$180.00 per inch diameter = $720.00 for each 4.00" bore X 14ea per day = $10,080.00. Don't take long to earn back the purchase cost of the boring package. 2 customers with Cat 51-57s scrapers, that is 3780 hitch bores & 6300 faces, keeps 2 guys continuously boring, boring, boring...never finished! Aussies make the big bucks like RayF
Then we're definitly on a different world on that part Here i've got $35k US in my line boring stuff. Climax machine will cost $40-50k US. To start with. I (and more guys i know) will charge around $100US an hour. Ex material used. You should never calculate out a gross income based on 78hrs a week.. Cause calculate in your holiday, weekend, sick days, etc you end up working 55-60 hrs max. A week.. Then from your gross income you will need to pay your house, water, workshop, electro, service van, material, insurance and then some taxes etc etc. Although it looks like you will have returned the invested money in two months you will need a few years to pay it back. Also if you cant pay the bills with only 40hrs a week, your probely are digging a hole for yourself. Atleast i know i can pay them and i will make 65hrs (payed hours) a week. Everything on top off the 40 is bonus. Also in holland its gonna be hard to find clients with that amount of machines. And even if you would then they got a line boring machine on their own.. But it will probely will be different in Australia...
I would agree that a customer base of 50+ scrapers alone is the exception, and not the norm. I'm not sure the are even 50+ scrapers in all of Alaska? Point is, if your business is solely bore repair work, then the math probably works out...as a machine "general repairer" it may take considerably longer to see a return on your investment. By the way BuMach, I might have about 1K in my "homemade" boring equipment, and with having done (2) boring jobs last year, it has almost paid for itself):drinkup Regards, Bob
I'm looking at line boring work to broaden my scope of what I offer right now. I can't see myself doing 50+ scrapers as I know company's that would be called long before my little company is. I'm hoping to be able to generate line boring work when my core work slows down, which it always does around mid summer till fall time. I was going to chase the small to midsize contractor. I want to make a wise investment, have a setup that can expand if the need arises but also don't want to bury myself. The input from all sides, is great a real help, more then I could of hoped for when I started this thread. Please keep the discussion going. Thanks to all!
For me i bought the line-boring equipment also to expend my business type off work and i just got Lucky that i had the oppertunity to work on one L150E which was worn out on all the bores. i made a qoute for that job and a month or 4 later they called up i was allowed to fix it. Since i calculated out a big number for hiring a line-borer to do the job. (i couldn't hire the machine which i previous did, cause that guy was affraid he was missing it when i was using it,) so i end up ordering one for my self. i know people who only do line-boring, so those are the once that you will call when you've done all the pre work yourself. they probely end up having 8-10 hours worth off work(for example) I offer a complete work range, from taking the pins out, repairing the bore and slab it all back together. so that makes me having probely 20 hours worth of work. and i normaly get to order the parts which makes a bit more pocket change too. So for me its easier to get more working hours with line-boring then. And íf i'm to busy i just talk with the costumer if they can do the pre-work so then i can just come over and still do the line-boring job. Had 7 weeks in a row off line-boring in the beginning off this year and i must say i was glad i could pick-up some other fixing jobs. I still want to expend the line-boring service but i still do a lot off the "normal" fixing and some track work so for me its nice to line bore every now and then. but if i can expend my company with a employe then i'm more able to take more line-boring jobs. But good luck with the math and making up what to do
We'll keep the discussions active, I'll post ELSA prices my math resultants have SC1 40mm combo machine costing over $40thou. $40thou for a 2.41Hp-1.57" dia bar machine. Also SC3 60/2, 60mm bar diameter 3.08Hp-450Nm max (331ft lbs). York seems economical, will 10Hp hydraulic with small diameter bars, facing head and borewelder; say adios to over $60thou (quoted Jan 2012).
ELSA (LBW-UK) SC1 40/4speed with 25% discount $34116.62 ex works, includes facing heads, small bar reducers ELSA (LBW-UK) SC3 60/2 4speed with 25% discount $51442.70 ex works, includes facing heads, small bar reducers Next day spare parts availability & 2yr warranty I like these machines, deal breakers for me is COMBO borer & welder, you can't bore if the machine is welding and they won't fit into confined areas compared to C-Max.
Good point, had not know this about the ELSA. I saw the BB 5000 in the aft steering compartment of a ocean tug boring the steering linkage, well confined space is being kind. Basically each guy crawled in stayed in that spot with one guy topside handing down the parts needed. Ended up having to cut a hole in the deck as could not get the boring bar into the space and then rotate it to the vertical position and through the holes that needed to be bored. At least the two in the steering compartment were out of the rain.
The small size off the climax is what i like about it too. Also that the feed is seperate off the turning. Havent had a spot where my elsa wouldn't fit. But for doing an articulation joint it would be handy to have a climax. With the elsa i need to get the wheelloader on its bud and then i have enough space to do the trick. Or get it in my shop and get it on top off the pit. Sometimes its would be handy to bore on one spot and weld on the other. That why i sometimes hire a second machine from a good client of me. But i have got a qoute on a york welder and i can buy a second elsa machine for pretty much the same price. And for the few pluspoints the york welder has i can live with not having them.. Its all in what you want to do and how much money you want to spent to get to where you want to be. I know i cant line bore over 400mm so i got some good contact which i will call when i got a job that needs a 400mm plus bore. I dont have issues hiring a good craftmenship to do stuff i cant do. Sometime i even hire the guy to do jobs for me when i dont have time. And the costumer still calls me back for the next job. But if you are only guy downthere who can do it and you can ask how much you want than i would go for it! I got in contact with a guy in australia who thinks about stopping his line boring job. He is willing to sell stuff. He got climax and a brandnew York welder. Pm me for details.
Bu I can give you Engineering Prints to self (or have made) borewelder, cost using mig gun to borewelder won't be much over $1000.00US The pricing for borewelders is ridiculous, I quoted 100 units @ a bit over $500 each minus the coaxial cable for one of the US manufactures. Except for the coaxial cable the aluminum shipping box cost the most. Climax couldn't do a borewelder with the machine because Elsa's mommy owned the patent for machines that bore-weld as a combo.
oke that's Always handy, how do they get the electrical power across? the old elsa torch had the turning on the welding machine side, my new one has it in the torch it self, so the cable is standing still. works a lot better then the older style one!
Line Boring System & Borewelders BuMach, Sorry for the delayed reply, had to dig through 50+yrs of prints and CAD files. How does the welding current transfer? Power-Coupler…Welding current from the coaxial cable and shielding gas is transferred from a non-rotating brass male stud (pin) to a rotatable female brass coupler affixed to a telescoping aluminum torch 24.0”-609.6mm AOL-1.25”Φ OD (31.75mm) 1.125”Φ ID (28.575mm). Welding current from the rotatable female brass coupler is transferred via M10 threaded-lock nut retained brass tubing (0.50”Φ (12.7mm) OD-0.25”Φ (6.35mm) ID to the adjustable bore welding mig swivel torch head assembly. Climax-Boretech-Dozer is basically the same except the torch is not telescoping; extension is via threaded connected torch extensions. Rotating Aluminum Torch Body (spindle) AOL 18.25” (463.55mm) 1.5”ΦOD (30.1mm) 1.255”ΦID (31.877mm) machined external 1.5”Φ 8TIP ACME threads AOL 9.25” (234.95mm) machined drive-keyway AOL 11.75” (298.45mm) keyway width 0.1875” (4.7625mm) Coated with baked on heat resistant Teflon. Before drawing CAD files, I’ll probably convert nominal measurements from ANSI Imperial (inch) standard to ISO (metric) standard. I’ll discuss converting all measurements to ISO-metric standards with a couple of friends with excess manufacturing capacity. With the increasing use of Robotic systems components are available that are more economical for these units example coaxial cables. Williams Marine (**) my thoughts about which borewelder to purchase; disclaimer I am not affiliated with BRS, York, Climax, B&D or Italians. Criteria 1) type of usage = light 2) cost of ownership, i.e. necessary repairs, replacement parts-service Thumps UP goes to BRS 1)…because their units do not use proprietary electronic controllers or gear motors 2)…Try before you buy! They’ll send you a borewelder to try out before purchasing. Tom’s BOA typically uses non-proprietary Dayton Speed Controller: Mod #6A191 E3099 Hp 1/6 H260 A3phase / phase1 $ea circa 1998 $53.91 Motor: Dayton DC Gearmotor: Mod #4Z534A Hp 1/30 V90 A.20 RPM 7 / Torque 50in-lbs $ea circa 1998 $89.00. Switch: 6pole USA 9909-10A, 250VAC / 15A, 125VAC 3/4Hp 125-250VAC V-Belt Duraflex 60G-2L130 Japan Source: Grainger’s Note: V-belt has been changed to sealed-chain on later units. What is advantageous about units using Adjustable Weld-Bead-Stepping borewelders? The 1st spiral weld bead! BRS, Hofmann, and Castolin-Eutectic you typically do 1 or 2 spiral (revolutions) before engaging the linear travel clutch or manual axial feed box, really difficult, LOL. Using a copper back-up plate or copper tubing works okay to create a start-of-weld build up 1st step also. Easy-Weld, Climax-Boretech adjustable weld bead stepping borewelders IMO are not required for typical borewelding, they use complicated proprietary electronic controllers. Climax-Boretech repairs cost $1,000 to over $5,000! Easy-Weld, York sold BRS for years so to create a ‘better mouse trap mind set indoctrination’; economical entry level Easy-Weld adjustable weld bead step borewelder…it is all about enhancing sales revenues! Easy, better, more precision etc also applies to Corporate Climax, BRS , blah; we want your money in our purse! Excellent photo testimonial demonstrating ‘fixed mechanical step helical (spiral) borewelding RayF’s thread on this website Tug boat steering linkage weld-boring repairs…BuMach-ELSA could do the job by mounting the machine above deck and climb into the fun zone operating the unit via electric remote control. Any machine with electric remote control could likewise be used. Climax, Hofmann or any machine with manual (hand) controlled axial feeding unit requires keeping the axial feed box within hands reach even if the RDU were mounted above deck. Second person could run the machine above deck but that is extremely hazardous!
StanRUS, great information, will need to read it a few more times to get it all to sink in. Have received quotes from York and BRS, time to try and compare those with the Climax quote. I am tentatively going to meet with a rep from York and then drive down and meet with Climax in a few weeks, till then off to a remote job location. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge, great help.
WM, I'm getting ready to drop the cash on the "entry level" BRS (welder only)...will post after receipt/initial run. StanRUS, do all of the machines (bore welding) have a fixed RDU to feed rate (1/8" per revolution) or are they adjustable...or is the 1/8" (+/-) generally the rule of thumb? Regards, Bob
Bob, Look forward to hearing back. I figure I'm about a month away from making this investment. StanRUS or whom ever, I was talking with the York rep, asking about my LN-25 to run the York bore welder, he said I may have to install a module in my wire feeder for burn back. Any insight information I would welcome. Thanks to all.
WM, You MAY need to install a Burn Back Timer module on your LN25; not very expensive and the wire feeder is pre-wired. We currently use LN25s, LN7-GMAs and Flex Feed 74 digital wire feeders, the units without BBT are not having issues with wire stubbing during borewelding usage. A MUST use CV constant voltage! 75-25% CO2-argon shielding gas, no reason to use over hyped and sold tri-mix (suppliers make more $$$ selling you tri-mix). Tri-mix causes contact tip overheating, wire seize-sticking problems. @ Bob, later
StanRUS What could you tell me are some problems with a B&D Manufacturing EV-2500 portable line borer for a person starting out. It probably would not do the job on the back of the dozer you posted. Could you email me things that are no good about this system for a person looking to start out. I can see you have lots of experience! Thanks! Simon [email protected]
I use BRS system with a Lincoln Ranger 10 for a power source and a Lincoln LN-25 for a feeder. I have focused on being portable and going to where the customer needs me . I am a toolmaker by trade and I believe that has helped me get up to speed . Rigidity is your friend !!!
Line Boring Systems - Borewelders Bob, Mechanical fixed-feed 0.125” 1/8” (3.175mm) step borewelders listed below: BRS BOA308i-408i-M1 1/8” step Bug-O-Systems BWS2000 = rebranded BRS 1/8” step Climax-Boretech DOZER BW1000 1/8” step Castolin-Eutectic ID Weld 25 & 2501 metric Cat #1U9600 operating instructions SEHS8985 = rebranded Swiss designed Castolin-Eutectic not longer available Synchronized non-adjustable step borewelders listed below: Hofmann Engineering (AFU) is synchronized to spindle rotation by unit’s electric-hydraulic controller, non-stepping borewelder MAUCOTOOLS Dual System, separate-able AFU can be uses as separate standalone borewelder; synchronized rotation to axial-linear travel, non-stepping borewelder https://youtu.be/iDutpN9I9IA ELSA & Sir Mechanica synchronized non-stepping borewelders Adjustable stepping borewelders: Climax-Boretech BW2600 & BW3000…York Easy-Weld series & BRS 550-HD mechanical stepping adjustment Soup-canning Spiral welding (fixed mechanical) versus Non-spiral welding (adjustable steps) which one is better and why? Go here http://www.repairbores.com/#!what-bore-welder/ch6q scroll down to soup-canning issue BRS states Soup-canning does not occur with fixed mechanical spiral welding borewelders. WRONG:bash…Incorrect wire speed and low welding voltage settings can also cause soup-canning with BRS or Climax-Boretech Dozer fixed mechanical spiral borewelders…use higher voltage watch the weld puddle base metal for wetting action, i.e. a bit of penetration. @Simon, B&D EV-2500, which one, automatic feed or optional variable feed? EV-2500 is not identical to BRS EV2; EV2 uses 3.3hp motor EV-2500 uses 2.2hp motor (15 to 150rpm). Nothing bad with your unit, power wise you'll want to use cutting bits with 0deg to 1.5deg lead angle and positive rake with chip breaker. I'll see if I have any jpeg drawn up and post later. Do you use a borewelder?
Lot off info came on this thread. Stanrus, thanks for the info on the ID welder. Personaly when welding in bores i dont see a lot off benifits on the step feed welding compared to the spiral. The start off the bore with the spiral is for me second nature when you get the hang off it. Nothing wrong with it, it's simple with the mechanicals doing the job and not really fancy going on. I also allign my shafts and bearings before i start welding the bore. So then i can switch easily from Bore to bore. And if i have another machine i can weld with one machine and bore with the other. I just got the 1.0mm wire tips from Elsa last week and i hope i can use them within a couple of days to see if it makes a lot off difference with the 0.8mm ones. In 1.0mm you have more different wires which you can chose from. Maybe i make the step to go to the 1.2mm too for the bigger bores. Greetings and good luck with the investments
Thanks for the wealth of information that has been posted, a great help. I really appreciate the time that has been freely given to share your knowledge. I am looking forward to the project I am working on in Western Alaska ending next week, flying home and taking this new knowledge and visiting York and Climax.
Stan,thanks for the different manufacturer's systems comparisons. I would say that at this point for my skill level I am better off with the mechanical "fixed" feed rate (KISS) approach. I checked out the video on the Maucotools system (a very nice unit), and I did re-read the info on the BRS site regarding "soup canning" (it sunk in more the second time) and will definitely keep the speed and heat in mind (will have to do several test runs before first $$$ bore). Regards, Bob
I'm another fan of the KISS principle. I've known quite a few of the electronic control units that have let the smoke out of the box. Big dollars to fix and your stuck until you can get another one. My welding attachment has zero electric controls. It is turned and fed by the boring head. I can feed the welder back and forth with the feed wheel and to engage feed a slip a collar to engage a simple open gear. Don't know how many tons of wire has gone through it and its cost me less than 20 bucks over 28 years.
RayF What make of machine is this simple system, and who makes it. Break downs are really stressful. Any Pictures of it. Simon C
I use Hofmann gear Simon. Plenty of pics of it here. Look at "some line boring pics" in this forum.
Hi Ray, Help me with continuing education, please! Which feed-box gear do you use 0.05-0.1-0.2-0.25mm when bore welding? Or is the weld-gear when engaged also turning the lead screw, I don't think so. Your neighbor-competitors with the borewelders that use Hofmann feed-box, is the drive motor from a welding wire feeder and wire feeder controller pc broad used for rotational speed adjustments?
Help me with continuing education, please! Which feed-box gear do you use 0.05-0.1-0.2-0.25mm when bore welding? Or is the weld-gear when engaged also turning the lead screw, I don't think so. The feed box is locked by turning a knob half a turn. The welding gear is engaged which turns the lead screw at a 1 to 1 ratio to the bar rotation. At the start of a bore I can feed the bar manually and get a perfect start to the weld, then engage the drive and away you go. Your neighbor-competitors with the borewelders that use Hofmann feed-box, is the drive motor from a welding wire feeder and wire feeder controller pc broad used for rotational speed adjustments? The few that use a stand alone welder buy off the shelf. One mob I work with has both the Hofmann attachment and a Bortech. I'm not real familiar with the home made welders. I know they used a wirefeeder motor but not how they controlled them. For welding components that I machine on the mill or lathe I have a Mk1 Hofmann set up permanently just for welding.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm understanding that I should stay away from the York Smart bore welder or some of the other ones for that matter, keep with the simpler ones to avoid repairs etc. More detailed information or a link where I may gain more knowledge would be helpful. Coming back to a post I made hinting that maybe RayF needs to write a book or some of the other very knowledgeable and experienced line boring contractors on here. As always, thanks it is great to keep on learning and something to look forward to reading after a long day in the rain and wind here.
2 KISS machines currently available for purchase BRS 408i or Climax Dozer. I would go with BRS, TRY BEFORE YOU BUY.
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders Okay Ray, Finally found a photo of the Homemade Aussie borewelder; 70yr old memory:Banghead...didn’t remember the Hofmann feed-box was used with a Homemade RDU. So your feeder box during borewelding is neutralized and becomes a Pull-Yoke. From the attached photo it looks like the small lever is used to engage or disengage the feed nut to stage (hand position) the borewelder tubular torch assembly. Guessing the borewelding RDU is also neutralized allowing free rotation by hand also. I would call the units KISS, originally manufactured by Arnold Engineering, I think? Sub-Zero bought the package, they’re in liquidation, debt $29million. With the current Yo-Yo mining industry worldwide, used line borers might end up on the auction-used equipment market very often.
The welding bar and extensions there are all Hofmann as well as the head mount. I don't know anything about the drive head and feed box. The job there of course are D10 or similar pivot shaft bores which I have done many a time. Who has done them and how many times did they crack their head of the drive sprocket? Sub Zero are a reputable mob fallen victim to the slowdown in the coal industry in the Hunter Valley. I knew the blokes when they started out. They originally bought Hofmann gear and they came and looked at my set up at the time.
"KISS", what does it stand for? Could give me an example of a KISS system, thanks. (Showing how much I need to learn) Would hate to get around the sales guys, being told anything and everything to just get to my wallet.
Keep It Simple Stupid.............
Oops, over thinking things.
Perhaps too much information!
TMI? IDK.... FYI... CUL :waving
Never to much information... Just being a dumb a#* is all, working to many hours in Bethel, AK, food not so good, ready to get on the big bird is all.
Wow WM! Bethel, AK (had to google it)...you must be really tired of sea-food! Regards, Bob
No sea food, lots of very greasy America/ Chinese restaurants. Its either muddy or a dust bowl in this place.
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders Ref photo ? HEC2sma upper right side Attached 3ea photos: BB5000 with electric motor ~ Bore diameter 13.75” X 4.400” length ~ 1 pass boreweld with Climax Dozer ~ 1 roughing boring pass approximate 0.180” & 1 finish pass 0.020” DOC ~ SFM 600 ~ C4 brazed on carbide tool bit ~ no coolant used. BB5000 Owner ~ Operator 56yr old Mexican immigrant specialized training Cat Power-Shift transmissions, DeMag shovels, hydraulics and okay general mechanic, fabricator, welder. Machinist experience manual lathe and knee mill. Line boring experience 20yrs plus. RayF, Nige, BuMach or other line borers , what is unusual about this set-up ref photo HEC2sma?
It looks a pretty standard set up. I've done quite a few of those,both Bell and Cats. I don't recall what looks like a sleeve in the bore in that pic. The older models with the bronze bearings seemed to last better than the newer ones with those green plastic bearings in them.
Cant really see something weird at this time. Only its not in my shop But its amazes me that Climax can run their bore system only supported on one side off the hole with that size of bore. Definitly makes it easier to measure etc.
Next week paying a visit to both York and Climax to checkout the equipment. Any advise you can offer, questions that I should ask, what to look for, etc. Thanks
Take lots of photos of the equipment (if they'll let you) and post them here ............
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders One of those outfits did not have their photobucket account password protected or protected from public viewing @Williams Marine Become a critical thinker, deconstruct their advert hype. Look at the photo carefully, describe what you see.
Boring a sleeve out? The photo doesn't look like others I have viewed of line boring. But then what do I know...
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders But then what do I know? Ans: You want to expand your’ companies’ capabilities; services offered and a future possibly even hire an employee to operate a line boring system. Your potential customer base within a 100 miles radius have medium sized equipment and you might want to Float Plane transport the line boring system. Float Plane transport ; obviously you’d want a light weight system...York’s aluminum-steel guide-torque reaction rod electric feed ‘carriage’ & bar powered by a mag-drill or core-drill motor @ 1st glance looks to be an okay candidate. Lets browse York’s on-line specifications and sales hype!:cool2 YORK 4-14ET 16” bore capacity (406mm) https://www.yorkmachine.com/products/4-14-et-boring-bar Sales hype ‘extremely portable’ Electric powered carriage 55lbs (25Kg) + 4spd Fein motor 22lbs (10Kg) = 77lbs (35Kg) Compare: 4-14ET 16” bore capacity to BuMach’s SC1 15.75” capacity ELSA = 41Kg ( 90lbs ) Yorkie is 13lbs lighter Sales hype ‘extremely powerful’ 1.2Hp (0.894kw) 35ft lbs (47.5Nm) rotational bar torque; rotational bar torque = power available to shear (cut) the material Material Removal Rate (MRR) = CIM (cubic inches per minute) material cut (machined) how much? Ask York... Compare: 4-14ET @ 35ft lbs rotational bar torque: direct drive end of bar torque input = NO mechanical advantage (gears-transmission multiplying input motor torque) Compare: BuMach’s SC1 ELSA 4sp helical gear trans multiplying 1800watt 2.413Hp. 1st gear bar torque = 1145.39Nm ( 844.79ft lbs ) Note: 1st gear torque spec per LBW 4-speeds 100, 150, 260, 420rpm; probably NO-LOAD rev’s per minute? Ask York… 100rpm what is the Surface Feet per Minute (SFM) for each of the 4 spec’d rpms Ask York... Extremely Portable & Extremely Powerful 4-14ET: How big is this machine, what are the physical dimensions; length, width and height ? What is the mounting distance from the bore’s front surface to the end of the 4-14ET? (I’ll guess 36” +) Ask York spec’s are not available on-line Compare: 4-14ET fined by OSHA:usa with mandatory rectangular guards (housing) installed to prevent hazardous exposure to high speed rotating spindle-bar connector and rotating ACME lead screw. More area to advert, ET-EP-EP = Easy Touch, Extremely Portable, Extremely Powerful & OSHA compliant! Would look about like BuMach’s SC1 ELSA and approximately the same size! 10.2lbs lighter To be continued
Please continue! It will be a interesting few days visiting both York and Climax this week.
William I have a BB5000 that is hydraulic drive that I power with the hydraulic system on my service truck, works well for me. Hydraulic motors are not that much$$$$ from hydraulic shops.
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders AQMD might screw that up.:Banghead How many York machines have seen in S. Cali? I’ve never seen a York in person; Les T. (scraper floor guy) bought York a few year ago, he didn’t get much work because the equipment managers are not naive idiots! Yorkie is basically a ‘self-feeding mag drill’ suited for OCCASIONAL usage like TomV.
Most of my work is very remote and as long as it is in the line of work aqmd does not say much. I have not seen Les T. in years. I do know of a few york setups around. They do the job and in some places work better than pass through bars. It all depends on the job at hand.
Thanks for all the info, i think a machine needs some weight to get his stifness and his toughness. (Thats also why stationary line boring machines weight TONS.. Just to give them a solid non fibrational base) Torque wise i think the elsa has enough although its hard to keep it running cool when you put it to the max. When you have a long big bore and you've let it rip it will heat up and puts the safety on. But when you find its sweet spot its not even a problem anymore. Atleast it has torque enough to chip the cutting plates.. Good luck WM and ask a lot off info and try to compare next to each other. The total setup length and the distance from workpiece to the machine are important. The closer the machine is on the workpiece the more stable and with less vibration the bar will turn. However setting the toolbit and measuring could be more difficult.
Williams Marine, Your’ up close and personal touchy-feel the equipment adventure begins. If I wanted to sell you a line boring system; before your visit you would receive a 25 page brochure entitled, ‘Principles of Metal Removal for Boring’ (pdf file via cloud). Demo = hands on borewelding and boring! Suggestion, 1st go north York, then visit Cmax. Off topic: I am old-school, started Aug 64, 28month interruption active compulsory (draft) service; retiring Aug 1st 2016. School, e.g. learning is a continuous process, slide-rule to specialized CAE software. I am not proficient with 3D animation-renderings, but the youngsters @ local engineering uni are willing to take on my projects for experience, pizza and beer. What you learned at an early age, chiseled into stone can end up disproven-wrong etc. Excellent example being the HGP (human genome project), results humans are more microbiological than mammalian by a 10 to 1 factor, yep were more microbiological (bugs) than mammalian. Modern humans are disconnected from earth, shoes, clothes and spending 93% of their time indoors mostly sitting; sitting is the new ‘smoking’ extremely unhealthy, were genetically designed to be constantly moving! Cheers
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders Hello BuMach, Borer Weight, heavier not required, I'll elaborate later Notice how the RDU's motor is mounted directly under the boring bar, that places the heaver mass @ lowest position Aussie Home Made RDU using Hofmann bars & feeder box
They aren't quite home made Stan. They are manufactured by a bloke south of Perth using cnc machined components. Bars and feed box are supplied by Hofmann. He makes his own support bearing brackets and quite a bit of other stuff. There are quite a few working around WA and also in the Eastern States. He also makes a different welding attachment. Hofmann welding bar but a different rotating joint and the welding end has some nice mods. Its electric powered independent to the hydraulic system. In that pic the motor is at the bottom but the unit can be mounted in any position and the bracket that receives the lead screw can also be rotated 360 deg so the feed unit can be conveniently mounted at any position to suit the operator.
Stan, what equipment do you use? If I recall you had posted a picture of a Climax with the drive mounted in the center of the bar, is that yours? Why vist York 1st? Which happens to be the way I have my vist set up, even though York rep. suggested the other way. (?). This endeavor has been educational in more ways then I thought.
Oke stanRUS thanks for the info
Ray, CNC bloke's RDUs, anodized blue, red would be cool; I am aware of every detail you've described, Thank you Filed patent disclosures 93, 1 obvious feature rotatable lead screw mount Williams Marine; Ref D8L BB5000 photo; eBay purchase, tooling tests and gave to a friend. I use self-designed machines outfitted with HBM production tooling; kicks ***! BB5000 weight RDU, AFU and Milwaukee 75lbs bit lighter than York.
Williams Marine, Finally got the BRS BOA-M1 on the job, (did several 2.75" ID pipe practice runs first) and I am pleased with the unit. I can see though that the auto feed would be a must if doing a considerable amount bore welding. I have also found that there is quite a learning curve to getting a proper bead to bead tie-in and base metal fusion (still working on that). I had some "ropey" welds on the practice runs, I did not realise how much difference small adjustments on voltage/wire speed would make. Regards, Bob
There is a huge difference between different welding machines. We only use inverters with a synergic function. Our remote controls have 10 turn pots for volt and wire feed adjustments. We can alter by 0.1 of a volt and wire at .1 of a metre. A good welder with synergic will compenate for different requirements of current while welding such as oil leaking out of joins etc. We use Kemppi but Miller are ok. Good quality wire (S6) and not rubbish that has a wax on it.That will coat your tips and turn welding into hard work.
1)...use a clamp-on type ground connection 2)...we've modified wire feeder-bore welder for remote control; borewelder rotational speed, voltage & wire speed The hardest material is the HAZ not the base metal, each pass anneals part of the previous weld bead (TBW = temper bead welding). Boring hand welds 2nd pass would be the area where carbide chipping occurred, that area was in the transition zone created by slowed cooling rate. Photo boreweld looks like your getting the hang of it Be safe Stan
Kemppi is not available in N. America We can get Cloos, German units BRS recommends Miller synergic inverters
Six hours with York representative today. Very nice setup, good support from York also, ran through the paces on both the line boring and bore welding units. Had a Bore tech unit to compare with the York bore welder, which was nice to see them side beside. Asked lots of questions and kept asking myself if this would work for me, and does it fall into the "KISS" requirements, that had been recommended on here. I will vist Climax tomorrow and will try and post the pictures and videos I took for the experts to comment on. Getting close now to either walking away or pulling out the check book. Thanks for the input you all have given, was a great help today, found I knew more then I was giving myself credit for.
Oh yeah, a bit of confusion on my LN-25 and just what I would need to run the York Smart Bore Welder. I would be using a Miller XMT 350 MPa inverter for my power. Any input on this subject would be welcome. ETER, very nice looking welds in your post above. Hope see more of your setup.
All US bore welder manufactures recommend LN25 with burn back timer; we do not use burn back timer and have Zero problems. Smart Bore Welder? The sales person you'd talk with Chris is honest & will bluntly tell you Smart Bore Welder IS NOT required for construction equipment type borewelding. In your position I would not make any purchasing discussions until you sit down & line out each guys pricing, the actual real world capabilities of the machines & then forget PUSH the whole deal out of your mind for a couple months. These outfits have turned into USED CAR TYPE SALES PEOPLE One of the welding only guys (35+yrs) recently purchased Miller's 800Dual Air Pack $40thou +, telling me all about 'wireless remote control'; my response, after 35yrs welding you still cannot pre-set wire speed & voltage! The look on his face was totally priceless !!!!! 2.5yr after buying complete BB5000, he's 100% convinced using carbide tooling is impossible, to proud to ask for help.... Take care
Ray, I was not aware of synergic function welders (did some reading on them), as for how they can compensate for "oil draw" is still way above my head. My Lincoln SP255 is a 20 year old machine, not too many bells and whistles. Also Ray, the service manual for the Komotsu PC120 that I am working on does not list the clearance/interference for the boom to arm pin bores in the boom...currently having a new pin made (I already have the new bushings for the arm bore)..what would be a good pin (70mm) to remachined bore fit? Stan, just learned yesterday coincidentally while talking the the BRS rep of the "temper bead welding" practice, I also realise that my ground clamp could be problematic (will be replacing with a c-clamp)...Question, are you saying that just the second pass tends to be "harder", or all subsequent passes? Williams Marine, thanks and good luck on "The Quest"! Stan makes a good point on gathering all the "comparative data" and then sleeping on it for awhile (maybe even go into a coma) before making a final decision:drinkup Regards, Bob
I don't know how it works either. It just does. The other handy thing is you preset the parameter and the volt knob becomes a fine adjustment either side of the preset. As you increase or decrease the wire speed the volts automatically adjust to the wire feed. So starting a bore using 1.2mm wire I start at about 2.8 metres a minute starting at the bottom and going up the bore.coming down start increasing wire. All done with one knob. You just give it more wire as you get into the bore. No juggling volts and amps. No stalactites going up on the first run. The bushing sizes are easy. The crush is built into the bearing. So if the bearing measures say 95.12mm you cut the bore 95.00. The crush is 0.12 or about 5 thou. Fitted pin clearance varies between manufacturers but on that diameter 6 to 8 thou is what I would use. You need a bit of room for grease. A Komatsu 70mm pin would usually measure around 69.9 to 69.95.
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders I was referring to boring machining passes, not welding passes:Banghead...If your boring machine will cut all weld build with ONE ROUGH pass, that is recommended. Subsequent welding passes BEADS will partly anneal each underlying layer, dependent on heat input, travel speed etc...Former policy was over weld the last pass & wash the excess off with oxy-ac torch, bit of stress relief and NO grinding. Bob, imagine your BRS (Cmax Dozer) minus the rectangular housing; housing replaced with small-ish diameter lightweight aluminum tube. Lots easier to position in tight space limited job setups, example underneath dozers repairing equalize cradle bores, RTF bores etc. I don't give a rats-*** about having a billboard advertising my equipment, that can be accomplished with Line boring girl:cool2 Schweißtechnik TWI~The Welding Institute~What is Synergic MIG/MAG welding and what are it’s advantageous? http://www.twi-global.com/technical...-mig-mag-welding-and-what-are-its-advantages/
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders Williams Marine, Save $$$$, Single mounting arms cost over $1,250.00ea. Simple to fabricate, any outfit with CNC oxy-ac or plasma can cut the dimensions per the attached file. You can fab single, double and universal mounting arms...Money saved will pay for Electric motor and Speed Controller with change left over. York's service-support: Probably better than Cmax, small organization with limited products, they depend on the Little Guys for their revenue. Easy Weld-Smart Weld are not KISS, I am not implying anything is wrong with those products. I would want to know if York provides a comprehensive Repair Service Manual with illustrations, Instructions and parts lists with part purchase sources. Same applies to any manufacture, Cmax, B&D, BRS etc...I do not want to send machine back to the OEM for repairs, because that typically means 2 1/2 weeks or more 'out of service'. MMR: there is not a STANDARD that all the manufacture use to rate their machines for purchasing comparison purposes OH, rectangular blue line = RDU design constraint; got to fit within those basic dimensions Cheers
Gotcha Stan, and thanks! (Sometimes you have to speak in the "lonnggg" English for me . One of my last bosses in the service always use to say "don't sacrifice clarity for brevity!" So far I have been ok with .030 (dia.) cuts/pass...haven't pushed the mag drill any harder yet. I think I understand the purpose of annealing (decarburizing?), but why no grinding? The web page that you linked was the same web page that I read the other day when Ray mentioned synergic welding very interesting, still very confusing. Regards, Bob
Have decided which manufacture to go with and almost the package. York by the way. Dealing with the financing side of the equation now. I have read elsewhere in HEF some about how to charge for a line boring job. I understand hourly rates differ throughout the readership. Not looking for what I should charge. Looking for advice on the formula that is used, hourly rate, size of bore, etc. ??? Any and all answers are welcome as always, the past posts have been a great help. Just wish these "line boring" headaches each day would go away. Ray
Hey Ray it is good to hear that you about have the deal all but nailed down, it sounds like this additional service of your business will be a real plus for you. I am not sure how bore repair will be effected by your line of repair work? (marine wise)... Over here (in the woods) for me I plan on factoring in the bore repair portion just like any other aspect of the job...meaning if I have 24 hours total labor wrapped up in the job and the actual bore repair was 50% of the labor time it will be billed out as total time on the machine repair and the bore repair itself won't be separated in the bill. I understand that to bid on an on-site bore repair job you will have to have a rate to go by. I just finished up the little Komatsu boom/stick and bucket pin bore repair and since I am a "newbie" at the bore repair, the actual bore repair (machining/welding) was about 90% of the repair and the disassemble/assemble part of the machine maybe 10%? Regards, Bob
Hi ray, i personaly bill per hour. I've got a labour rate and if the job consist of disassembly and assemble work to i'll take my normal rate. The line boring itself i use my line boring rate. If i need to weldin the bore too, then i just ask weldingcosts. If the costumer ask a fixed price i'll make a price all in. But that being said. I probely have more competition in the neabourhood than you probely will have. I know people who charge per 10mm off the bore. But i dont know which way would be better. For the client a fixed price would sometimes be better when things are going though. But i think a bigger bore will also take a lot longer to fix so there probely is some balance point somewhere. Good luck and welcome in the line-bore club
Bob, you don't add any extra to the invoice when you are line boring? It is just a flat hourly rate, a added service your company supplies to draw in more work? I have looked at line boring as a way to initially attract more work by offering a specialty which then hopefully would create the situation where that customer would call me in the future say to do repair work, or needed a certified welder or rigger. Not sure if that makes sense. Please upload more of your pictures, great to see.
Thanks BuMach, exactly the type of information I am looking for. Also hope to see more of your work posted here or in your thread.
I also watch that i dont work to cheap. Cause people are willing to pay for the repair. For example the D9 stabilasor bar i did. Cost €17.000,- new. The line boring i did was €3500,- So then even a bill of lets say €5000,- would probely be no problem. It all depends what kind of costumer you can attract with the repairs. For me personaly i started with line boring to be able to ask more money per hour. And maybe in the future do 50hours of line boring per week instead of fixing by my normal rate. Cheers
You have to pay for the equipment, the difference between wrench time and line boring time is like paying an operator to run your machine versus hiring an operator that brings his own excavator with him. It's labor rate plus machining rate in my opinion.
In your opinion what would be an excepted markup rate above your hourly rate? 10,15,20 % while using your equipment or more? Thanks a big help
Personally I would probably approach it from a payoff point of view, plus consumables. For example figure a five year service life of your boring equipment, so 60 months, estimate how many hours you can bill for the equipment per month, twenty, thirty, forty? Divide the total purchase price by 60 months, then again by the number of hours you've estimated, and you arrive at the payoff cost per hour (estimated). Then you add twenty or thirty percent profit plus consumables which I assume would be cutting bits, welding wire, gas, etc. THEN you have to look at it and ask yourself if it's too steep against your local competition or will price customers out of having the work done. Adjust as needed. By looking at it from this perspective you get the gut check reality of whether this is going to be profitable or a loss leader, or at least how many hours you need to bill out each month to make it worthwhile. As always, heh, YMMV
Ray, i'll charge €40,- or €50,- depending on the client per hour. This is my wrenching rate. I charge €35,- extra the hour for line boring
Excellent lantraxco, using that simple formula being very conservative in my numbers landed me almost right at what I was thinking my hourly rate should be when line boring. Thank you
I understand what you guys are saying with regard to specialised tooling commanding a higher "hourly" rate...I have to put into perspective that someone that has been doing bore repair for years may have a higher quality of work and probably can do the repair faster based on experience. At some point I too may increase the rate for bore repair and pressing operations, but for now I will stay with the KISS approach and to the one shop and one field hourly rate. I see the additional service of bore repair as a business enhancer. As with any new tool purchase we have to do the "when will the tool have paid for itself?" math...it may be the first time you use it, or take many years. Regards, Bob PS: The stick cylinder rod was bent and caused the pin to walk out and bent the ear by more than 3/4"
I understand what you are saying ETER, I'm looking at it from the perspective of I will have made a sizable investment (30K to 40K), will have to increase my insurance, plus insurance on the equipment itself due to theft, damage or loss. (I can't see Alaska Airline cargo writing me a check for 30K without a fight). Plus I am bringing a specialized skill and equipment that not ever guy with a welding machine in his PU has. I think for the risk that you and others are doing the rate should be higher then just your base wage. The guy running the Mantiwoc 18000 crawler working with Millwrights setting machinery makes more then the guy running the boom truck unloading roof trusses,well I would hope so.
I agree. Line boring is a premium skill that not every machine shop is capable of doing, let alone doing it out in the field. It should be priced accordingly. If you have a service that no-one else has you can literally charge what you like because one way or another the customers are going to have to pay it. To give you an example of that until we got our own machine on site we used to pay the only company with the capability (in our area that is) $30k for building up and line boring the loader frame & B Pin bores on a large wheel loader. That was 6 bores about 8" diameter and approximately 36" total length (2 x 12" long, 4 x 6" long) for the 6 bores. It was a case of we had no alternative......
Im having the same point off vieuw as Raf, I think the cost and risks and also the specialty is to high to keep the same rate. You gotta do some math of course to know your breakeven point. But if you do a big job, the equipment could pay its self in 1-2 jobs. I always say, Pay peanuts, get monkeys! Quality jobs have a certain pricetag.
I am in agreement with on all points, but would add that the "sweet spot" for billing with vary depending on location and customer base:drinkup Regards, Bob
Indeed.
Shear Sheep short, but do not cut the skin!
Cheap labor isn't skilled. Skilled labor isn't cheap.
Cheaper labor, i.e. apprentice programs are prerequisite to achieve 8,000hrs hand on experience to receive your ticket; Department of Labor CARD as journeyman with SKILLS...You could not be hired on as a inside or outside machinist by any of the trades associated with Shipbuilding or Repairs in the US & most other countries. My question, are you planning to practice on your dime for 50-100-150hours with your new boring system? Sounds like you're excepting paying customers to foot your training tab!!!!!
Egg-Zachary ! At first job, you will be very slow, in-efficient, not having it all thought out, dis-organized, etc. That first job (and the next couple) should not be priced time & materials, rather firm price. Yes you will be losing some money, but no customer will allow you to learn on his dime.
I would go further and suggest that on the first few jobs while you work the bugs out be prepared to invoice the customer at an hourly rate but billing somewhat less hours than you actually spend doing the job to account for the lost time. Once you're up to speed that falls away.
I'm thinking that before the job starts, you quote the job based on a standard price, hours not withstanding.
Was going to spend time in my shop honing my skills, first jobs bill according. Oh Stan FYI, 4 year degree followed by 4 year Union apprenticeship then followed by 28 years in the real world working prior to going out on my own.
Yes, do a "practice job" first.... you'll end up forgetting a tool, wrench etc. it's inevitable, to make mistakes at first. Keep notes, you'll start buying tools just for the machine (extra allen wrenches, box wrenches etc.) and have them in a job box. Maybe even a couple of good 100' extension cords, a magnetic portable light to light up the area, measuring tools, a extra mag base a and 1" dial indicator for moving things precisely. Minimize "running back to the shop" and you'll get this down pat quickly.
Thanks good information, appreciate your input.
If we all only did jobs we knew exactly how to do we would never go forwards.
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders Practice honing your skills, okay. Standardize your’ test practice procedure so you’ll always test in an identical sequence using the same type of steel, same brinell hardness number, same tool bit geometry etc...Purchase 2” thick X 24” X 24” mild steel plate (C1018, 1026 brinell hardness #100-150)…Set L/D (bar length to diameter support bearing distance) @ 10X (example 2.0” dia bar = 20” support bearing spread distance). Set DOC (depth of cut) @ 0.125” per side (0.250” per bore diameter)...SFM @ 280-350 (for carbide)...IPR (inches per revolution) @ 0.005” Locate center on steel test plate, torch cut 2.5” diameter hole, install end of bar driver-feeder & attempt to machine the bore observing the chipping action; swarf turning blue-ish-blue black with chips forming 6s or 9s...if the chips are long-stingy then you’ll either increase feed rate to break chips or use a cutting bit (ground with diamond wheel or inserts) with chip breaker. Backing off SFM and feedrate-IPR can cause BUE (built up edge = dulling-wearing of the cutting edges) and can cause ‘work hardening’ of the material your machining. Find out what Yorkie will machine; ask Yorkie to due production cut and the 2 bar carriage guide bars will twist causing chatter, vibration and be difficult to achieve an adequate surface finish...easy to test using torque wrench & locking out the driver-feeder assembly!!!!! Or simply read the available information on York's website or listen to the sales people's honest answers, when asked specific questions. Practice welding the bores & machining to size; you can then bid jobs with a basic know-how of how long (hours) it will take. Most customers want a quoted bid, how much will the job cost!!!!
So your gonna show up at a shop, with no pre preparations ? Wing it ? At what hourly rate do you get for "winging it" ?
StanRus, thanks for the suggestions / input. It was suggested to me also to use schedule 80 pipe of various diameters and lengths, weld them onto a base and practice on them. I have also found a couple excavator buckets in a scape yard, may get one and rebuild it to include line boring. All great information posted, keeps one thinking and looking at it from more then one perspective, which was the reason I started this thread. Would enjoy sitting around the shop with all of you sipping our beverage of choice and getting into a in depth discussion on line boring and much more. I think the young guys who want nothing to do with the trades are missing the point, they are missing the Zen and Art of it. I highly recommend reading if you haven't yet Shop Class As Soulcraft. An inquiry into the value of work. By Matthew B. Crawford
Get some PG in and I'll happily join you ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7AO6DHx27c&list=PLKDLD7zS1AchSPInfQuIl1vZCgwerYeY6&index=3
Can the monkey join us?
Most certainly ........
Fat Tire for me, and there's a loooooong list of alternates should that not be available..... :drinkup
Last but not least for sure. Which Bar Package to start with????? One side of my brain says to go with the larger package, spend the money now, be ready for more diversified work, especially since some of my work could be on marine type equipment. (I approach my rigging this way, can never have to many slings, shackles etc.) I admire the company's big or small that are tooled up, not having an excuse for why they can't get it done. Worked with Mammoet overseas, could not believe how well equipped they came to remote locations. Had an "old school" hard *** superintended that would say, "I don't want to hear excuses, I want performance, now can you do the job or not? It's not personal, it's just work." Would like to start out versatile, I can see adding longer bars maybe, and down the road an HPU. On the other hand I could save $5,560.00 (US) going with the lesser package and add as I need it. My fear is not being tooled up for a job that may come along. It's all a risk I know. Below is the breakdown of the two packages offered by York, "B" and "D" package. Package B includes; 1 1/4" Bar package -1 4 foot bar (not included in "D" package) -1 6 foot bar - 2 3" line-up cones -2 mounting heads (1 in "D" package) -2 bore weld interface (1 in "D" package) -2 tail supports -2 clamping collars -1 calibration tool -1 accessories tool box 2" Bar package -1 3 foot bar (not included in "D" package) -1 5 foot bar -1 1 7 foot bar (not included in "D" package) - 2 2-4" line up cones - 2 4-6" line up cones - 2 6-8" line up cones (none in "D" package) - 2 8-10" line up cones (none in "D" package) - 2 mounting heads (1 in "D" package) -2 bore weld interface (1 in "D" package) -2 tail supports -2 clamping collars -1 calibration tool -1 6-10" bore adaptor (none in "D" package) -1 accessories tool box Thanks for your input, the beverages will be on me for the first few rounds!
Which York driver-feeder? Do they have a precision bar-to-bar coupling? Instead of 8ft bar, use 5&3ft bars coupled. Instead using set up cones, you can make (cheaper) 4leg adjustable spiders...check on YouTube how the Italians center their bars. When you're ready for big bores like stern tube bearings, send a pm.
Thanks, will look into it.
MAUCOTOOLS new player, all the Italians borer manufactures are located in the same area of southern Italy. https://youtu.be/LQefnY1uWbU Observe @ 5:40 sec precision bar coupling , I use a patented 3 screw coupling, each screw develops 10,000lbs, only requires 200lbs of force…IMO every bar should have female coupling INCLUDED @ no charge Kaiser CKN connections @ 2:52 https://youtu.be/9qJKkiR-o5Y Aluminum reduces moments-of-inertia (light weight) most cutting tool manufactures have adopted aluminum tool bodies for large boring (4” to 120”diameter)... You want a light weight system , instead of solid steel boring bars...bars can be made using seamless tubing example 2.25” OD-1.250” ID reduces weight by 31% giving up 9.8% bending (deflection) strength. 4140B heat treated, tempered etc, case hardened to 58-60HRC and hard chromed (hard chroming reduces the coefficient of friction, lowers tendency to stick-slip in bearings & spindle) last step precision ground… Example of poor chip control https://youtu.be/iSmSkoKUPiM
If York generally keeps longer bars in stock for purchase (Or rent?) then I would opt for the smaller package to get started. No matter what you'll never have everything you need to do every job that comes along, being able to acquire what you need in a couple days should usually suffice I would think.
On construction equipment I use 1ea bar 78" long for 85% of the jobs. York, excessive extra bar length causes whpping, that ceases vibration-chattering. Look @ Thompson 60 Case Precision line shafting, they can drill & tap tool bit holes to spec before hardening. Instead of Calibration tool, all that is required is a dial indicator with hardened flat anvil & magnetic base. Upgrade to HPU 10Hp not quite $25k, hydraulic 5-10Hp is not recommended for use with 4-14ET carriage assembly because the 2 support guide bars twist.
The calibration tool is part of the package. It looked cheap to me, I thought I would not use it due to its look and feel.
For bores up to 8 inch train yourself to size bores with Moore and Wright inside calipers. You can feel them in to be spot on for size and its much faster than farting around with dial gauges and all the other hi tech rubbish they want to sell you.
I think Steve Loving? posted photos in your' thread or started his own showing calipers. Making calipers was a apprenticeship project, draw filing forever, heat treating etc...I dropped the bar on my right hand breaking couple fingers then had to purchase digitals until healing was over, couldn't get the FEEL with swollen fingers! Well okay I use Jap spring tensioned calipers, but I still use dial indicator to measure tool advancement if I am using cutter bit holders without built in calibration dial or non-threaded tool ports. WM: B&D boring bars have drive keyways , you don't need with York driver-feeder...Tail support bearings are self aligning spherical bearings you can purchase from any industrial outlet approx $35.00 ea instead of $117.00 ea 2.25" diameter... Watch York's promo video https://youtu.be/nNX74S_VsIE @ 0:10 mini cut @ 0:16 mini cut @ 0:22 lousy surface finish @ 1:42 still stating Apr 2013 you can use hydraulic motor with 4-14ET carriage...every cut shown taking more DOC is in non welded mild steel @ 2:07...Support bearings @ 4:00 you'll have to always weld on brackets...@ 4:19 boring bar damaged from scarf & fretting at drive connection... Reconsider using York, cut a deal ELSA get their distributorship for North West US
York thru bar measuring kit. Had the opportunity to use it while running the equipment. The tooling in the kit seems to be well made unlike their cutting tool adjustment gizmo. York selling point is you retract,insert the gage into a tool port next to the cutting tool, let it expand, lock it, remove and the measure with your calipers. Then adjust for your next cut. Ray F or others to you think this kit is worth the money? ($500 US) It looks good durning the dog and phony show, but I have concerns of it being one more expensive tooling to keep track of, small gage's that drop in the mud,dirt or worse the bilge of a vessel. If anyone has this kit please jump on in and let me know how it works for you. Have a good feeling where you pro's stand on this tooling, just picking your brain is all, thanks.
For bores big enough I use an inside mike with a 1/4 inch leg through the tool holder hole in the boring bar. You have already checked thag with an outside mike and know exactly what its reading. You can use that i/s mike for all your measuring. Using an expandable gauge,not being 100% sure you got it right,then measuring with verniers that are good for 2 thou. Not for me. For small bores as I said I like quality i/s spring calipres set to an o/s mike. You can feel to the 1/2 thou and they are quick. With practice its easy to estimate how much more to come out and then tap the cutting tool out with an allen key. You can easily feel the tool move out a thou at a time with your finger on the side of the tool. Another good thing is your client is seeing production, not taking time between cuts fooling around.
Thanks Ray, wish I was a little closer to your neck of the woods. Have only made it to Auckland in my travels.
RayF...making multiple cut & try boring passes is ‘wasting time & farting around’, OEMs Cat, Liebheer, Komatsu, Case blah, blah use diametral pre-settable cutting tool holders to eliminate time wasting cut & try machining…Pre-set tool holders were designed for line boring bar usage over 100yrs ago, those same basic tool holders are still used today in manual & CNC HBMs, machining centers & are directly adaptable for use with portable boring machines. Requires slipping the bar into the spindle & support bearing WM, open pdf, and teach yourself ref page 15 Misalignment Errors… https://www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/pdf/E4329_QuickGuide.pdf
Thanks for that. I've been wondering why I've been a failure as a line borer all these years:bash
You are welcome // I do respect your’ tenaciousness using Mk1s @ 3Hp starting off, but lots of extra bustin your ***... Know what happened to spammer's forum click http://www.lineboring.org
I have the snap bore gage that came with my BRS system . It works fine but I've learned that it takes a light touch and you should rotate back and forth before you tighten gage ! For the heavy cost they should have hardened ends !!!
Thanks CNY for your useful info, please jump in and add anything else. How long have you had your BRS? What made you go with BRS? I'm assuming you have read through RayF's thread and also TomV's, great information in both not to mention inspiring work.
It definitely helps to have access to a machine shop when doing line boring ! Don't forget you'll also need a hollow body enerpac to push the bushings in your repaired bores . I've swithed to acme 1"-8 all thread for pulling bushings in .
WM, excellent video of 'farting around' https://youtu.be/0kNoiLLz9EY skip ahead to 6:00 using 2 plunger snap gauge; no way is the operator getting a accurate measurement...$10.00 spring calipers are more accurate and faster to use.
That was a bit embarrassing and uncomfortable to watch.
I doubt that I would be paying him wages for long.
The company's I've worked for would definitely say "thanks but your services are no longer needed, we'll give you call if anything comes up"
dje the guy takes forever to get that bore done.. i use those expender calibers too. i like them, easy to use and cheap to make. I've been testing them in the beginning to see if there was a lot of difference between the bore i measured with that springloaded caliber and the same bore measured with my tripod bore measering tool. Was less then 0.01mm of difference so that is close enough for me. Good to see you got the machine Williams Marine and good luck with the jobs
Hello Williams Marine We went through this exercise a number of years ago and settled on a Climax set up. The features of this unit will save the day going forward as it can fit into tight locations. Secondly the Climax mounting system lends its self to mounting bearings several degrees off 90 from the bar and also allows for bearing to bore fine alignment. These to items are very important. We run bars 4 to 10' in 1 3/4-2-2 1/4 inches. We have build a good quantity of bearing mounting fixtures over time.
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders Hi schistbay, Universal mount increases rigidity (Cmax photo) ea pair of legs in the photo is triangulated with the bar center axis Latest operator request is increasing facing machining rate using end mill, he sent U video https://youtu.be/0Dj1jPA9An4 This will be a trick to apply with portables
A small gear motor (or hydraulic motor) applied on a arm, finding a hydraulic motor with internal bearings capable of being used with a milling cutter directly attached would be the ticket for compact-ness (and a hollow shaft for a draw bar) The rotate will be tricky, unless handfed (which I assume you don't want to do) so probably a small, high ratio worm drive applied to swing the separate motor driven milling cutter.
Stan We built a set of universal mounts for our Climax set up which come on very handy in a lot of locations.
Oh you remembered, 'triangles are your friend'. You can add fine adjustment to each leg by threading the tube externally & using round body nut to extend or retract the length, helps out when mounting to irregular surfaces. If you have time check http://www.serco-tools.com/ for visual examples. Cmax has new distributor west of your location TOMCO, service western Canada, hey make a deal with Cmax take the frozen middle north Take care
Williams Marine, U-tube video 'mickey mouse' workmanship with York set up https://youtu.be/60P5pjTLTLQ Spacer bushings, welded in to retain...using 4140-8620 material etc York FACING ATTACHMENT 10.375" max face diameter...0.005" travel per revolution...$2,750.00 fob...requires 5.5" space to mount between work surface & support bearing(s)
Precision Boring Bar Alignment https://youtu.be/ULCIq1BDjjM Accuracy 0.0005" @ 17ft http://www.brunson.us/pdf/410.pdf PRICE $32,550.00 plus $4,250.00 for camera adapter
How in earth are you able to get that amount back when line boring excavators?
Nearly 40 grand for a half baked alignment set up? I'll have to struggle on with my piano wire for less than a quarter of that
Yeah.. Measure with a caliber and draw with a marker Im not saying i cant find situations where this would be necesarry but its a bit to much for me..
Way to much for me. Someone said awhile back KISS on here.
Yep stick with that. Its not rocketscience atleast 90% off the time it isnt..
The Alignment Scope; that is NUTS... Asked application engineers, 'how can you even use the set up solo' because it isn't possible to look through the scope & adjust other support bearings...reply use adapter & laptop... The slip in TARGET cost $16,650.00, fits into $55.00 semi-precision spherical bearing that is fit into a non-hardened circular bearing housing; after boring 50 bores the bearing housings loosens up a bit & the spherical bearing will rotate from it's own weight. Piano Wire is good enough!
There are many jobs that you need help with alignment. We needed them most on bigger excavator buckets where there are 2 to 3 metre distances between bores. Nearly 8 metres on 600 tonne face shovel buckets. You need it a lot on O&K work because of the very tight alignment tolerances. If you start getting into engine crank tunnel line boring its essential. Our alignment gear is quick to use,good for .0005 over 25 feet and is a lot less than 10k.
Thats what i was thinking to RAF is something like that comes up at my company i would rather buy the pianowire system. Its simple and a lot more bulletproof then the others. I did see one used a couple of months ago on a shipyard for the alligment of the propellor shaft. They had electronical alligment with a laser and electronical target. The kit looked like it could go up to space so i guess the pricing will be through the roof too.
Hofmann's Piano Wire set up for 2.25" bar is under $6thou fob Perth...you can make your own set up also...check around the shipyards they've been using piano wire set ups for over 100yrs Lasers typically cost $30thou & have lots of usage issues
I gonna do that. If something comesip i might give you a message. 6thou aussie dollars is not to bad.
Lots info on the net examples http://www.spaceagecontrol.com/calccabl.htm Tables http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/forrest-i-found-wire-sag-table-93414/ scroll downward in thread How to ship stern tubes http://www.shipsuperintendent.com/Welcome/(S) A108.pdf
Movie time, slow motion cutting tool https://youtu.be/mRuSYQ5Npek T.I.N coated HSS prevents Built Up Edge Climax Facing & Grooving Head with extended slide https://youtu.be/mGJi3oppvkM These guys have the power turned to minimum...Cmax recommended 100 revs; we've been using MAX revs (approx 180rpm) with the Milwaukee motor machining off 0.200" plus 6.900" dia to 11.000" diameter faces average time approx 17minutes
You can make your own. Hofmanns have just put it in a ready to use package. My experiance with laser is very limited. I did a crank tunnel bore on a 36 series Cat. We tried to use a laser but every time someone in the shop thumped someting or used the crane the laser vibrated and we had to start again. We went back to the piano wire. The tolerances were .0015 alignment between bores and not more than .003 over the 7. We got it to .0015 over the 7. So it does the job and is more than accurate enough when working on earthmoving gear.
Ray, does Hofmanns make a 40mm alignment kit? Another question, do you have to check the tension scale's calibration from time to time? The CNC bloke south of you; his wire tensioner look like a T-handle torque wrench that twist the wire to set tension. Lasers are IMO overkill & fussy to use; just not required on mining-construction type of equipment. OEM's specifications typically can be (are) 0.002" +/- @ 10ft spread for 2-4 bores in line. Cat's manufacturing shop floor prints state, 'bore 2 holes in line +/- 0.002"...those prints were sent to another Aussie forum member who works for West-Trak
The only standard kit is 2 inch. I imagine they could do whatever dia. I haven't seem Maccas tenshioning method but a torque set up would work. Ive not checked my scale. If I was going to do a super accurate job I would. The tension is 40kg. The tension is easily set. Cat likely need to take notice of there own specs. I've checked the ends of plenty of new 994 loader frames that have been 12 to 14 thou out in the length of the bore. Geographe make a mod for the bucket hookup and require a 4 thou alignment. I had the job of checking them at Westrac before they were done.
Why does that not surprise me ...? Over the years I've had 994A/D/F loader frames (and buckets) so bad alignment-wise that you couldn't get the pins in ..... in one dealership we got to the stage of checking bore alignment on new machines and reworking if necessary before even starting the machine assembly.
Line Boring Systems & Borewelders You would not believe (circa 2000) some of ‘mickey mouse BS’ that goes on @ Cat subsidiaries! Couple of examples; Mitutoyo portable Rockwell hardness tester, non-op...using sub’s non-calibrated HR tester (non-calibrated equates to guessing)...Mitutoyo Surface Profile Meter non-op, relying on ‘theoretical surface finish’ machining settings… BuMach, Auto feed face welding attachment (Climax-$1300.00)...we’re trying to shrink this unit to keep the support arm closer to the work-surface & couple of additional improvements. When I've got worked out I'll let you know Climax photos
The Cat facility in Boksburg South Africa, formerly known as BEMCOSA (part of the Barlows Machinery emprie), where among other things the 994 buckets used to be built was one of the worst as I recall.
It sounds to me like someone is trying to weld the finish machined bushing in, held in an alignment fixture. to save the final, in place machining (which would be a major cost savings, hence the pressure to implement) Might have worked good at one time, with proper procedure control, but welding procedures get lost, changed for the bean counters etc. and now you've lost it all.
BUT BUT BUT CAT's THE BEST :notworthy
Consider this ......... discuss the origins of the expression "It's a Cat design feature - it's designed to ***k you up" .......
Piano Wire Ray F or anyone else what manufacturers do you recommend or to stay away from. Ray F hope you can take the time in your thread of here to post more pictures of your setup and the use of it.
Ils possible to do if your self a piano wire alignement system ?
YES...very, very low cost!!!
Stanrus would you be intertested to give me informations to make it ?
Please share your information, thanks.
Working on that Mink...what brand boring machine do you have? ELSA, BRS, B&D etc Archived link: http://web.archive.org/web/20100602...wrightmasters.com/School/tight_wire-sag_1.htm
Thanks Stanrus. Its DIY boring machine. Similar principle as Elsa or Sir.
I've been perfecting my line boring the past few days. Only got it this past Wednesday after much care unpacking it and going over each thing with my son, we have had it up and running on some scape pipe I picked up. Great time, I understand now why you guys do it. My son said it gave him satisfaction, ask him to explain, said it is doing such precision type work. Probably have spent more quality time with him in the past few days in the shop then in a long time. His IPhone sits in the house, that says something for an 18 year old, he was worried the other night I was going to dive into the bore welding without him, I think he almost was going to tell his girlfriend he had other stuff going on. We have been trying a few different feed rates and bar speeds, what is a good rule of thumb? What is one looking for to get the optimum production? Thanks for the information and support.
Bore welding Question, stated out welding good nice looking welds, welding up a 6 inch bore, by about 10 inches of length, was running good for the first 4 inches, nice consistent welds all the way around, then from the 8 to 11 position started to get ugly welds, ropy looking then right back to nice welds the rest of the way around. I tried adjusting the step and speed of both the wire and rotation didn't seem to help. Thanks for your help again.
How hot was the bore getting? If you were welding a bore with a thin wall it may have been heating up. If you are going to have trouble bore welding it will be in that position or cold lap at 20 past.
Thanks Ray, the scrape pipe I'm practicing on is 2 inches thick (50.8 mm), I did stop a few times to let thinks cool. After I wrote the last post I went back out to the shop and retracted the nozzle, I think I had to much build up on the one side of the nozzle and it may have been restricting the shielding gas I'm thinking. If my wife wasn't tired of me and this endeavor I would head back out and run some more. Thanks for your input, I'll be sure and check how hot the bore is getting tomorrow and keep you posted.
Sounds good to hear you getting along with the machine Williams, I actually bought another Elsa machine last week. I traded in the elsa i got rightnow. I've started with the SC40 Easy with only two gears..(same as the older style elsa's had) had some issues with heating up the motor on the bigger bores, when having the feedrate high and some good material in front off the cutting plate (feedrate and material as rated on the cutting plates). also with the facing head i bought two weeks ago i'm having some issues with the power off the motor, the 1st gear is to slow and the 2nd gear i need to be to low on the power it has no power at all.. So the importer made a nice deal for me to swap my machine (complete with shafts and bearings etc etc) for a SC40/1 with the four speed gearbox and they let me experiment with a heavier motor, so they are building my machine as we speak and i will probely have it after the holidays. Looking forward to work with the new girl. take some pictures off your machine Williams Marine! looking forward to see your setup:drinkup
Thanks BuMach, looking forward to hearing about your new setup. It's been a interesting learning curve for sure, I keep my notebook close by, seems like every time I make a move I learn something new. Definitely no two setups are the same. I keep telling myself baby steps. Getting the bore welder to work was a big hurtle, I was expecting all kinds of problems, but other then a few operator errors ran great. I'll see if I can learn how to upload pictures. Will be heading to Western Alaska in a few days, would like to share some visual's of that too. My son will be coming with us to be the fetch and get guy, should be an adventure with him along.
To upload photos to a post hover your mouse over the 3rd last icon on the RH side of the taskbar that is directly above where you are typing. A popup titled "Insert Image" will appear. All plain sailing from there ..........
Another thing you can try is experiment with the tip angle. My reference is to have it a bit flatter to the bore than 45 deg. As well as helping with splatter build up it allows that hard silicon scale at the weld toe to slough away. That scale can often become a problem as the arc can have a hard time burning through it.
Thanks Ray The leaning curve is slowly getting straighten out at this end. Yours and others input has helped greatly, thank you. Regards, Ray S.
York end-of-bar drive electric powered: your constrained to working with minimal Hp-torque...1st-rule of thumb, carbide likes speed. Speed in machinist speak is SFM (surface feet per minute), handy on-line calculator for turning-boring http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-turning.htm York recommends 300-400 SFM for Micro100 AL-AR brazed on tool bits 4”Ø-300sfm=286revs / 4”Ø-400sfm=382revs you can play with the calculator, use your note’s data Got smartphone? http://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-...ps_for_download/Pages/turning-calculator.aspx use free turning calculator app...manual choice setting of ISO-metric or ANSI-imperial inch units Note: Ad free application Carbide will work out-of-parameters, e.g. @ lower SFM; HSS won’t hold a sharp edge at much over 100SFM… In the long run ‘throw away inserts are more economical & incorporate multi-millions’ $$$$ research & engineering! You’ll have to know SFM to use on-line insert data or if dealing with an application engineer directly...You’ll also need an understanding of ‘cutting tool holders’ insert pocket geometry. Start with Sandvik link below http://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-...nd-depth-of-cut/pages/default.aspx?Country=us Note: Wiper Inserts won’t work with flimsy portable borers…
Thank you StanRus, appreciate your detailed response.
Sandvik’s app, machine your practice 6”Ø pipe with York’s Fein 4 speed motor 100-150-260-420 rpms 1.2hp-35ft lb) Tool bit 0deg lead angle...6deg rake angle (low cutting force geometry)...unalloyed Mn<1.65 ISO group steel 0.150” weld built up per side ID 5.700”Ø...Length 6.0”...boring to 6.0”Ø 1st gear...0.150” depth of cut...feed 0.005”ipr…SFM158-100rpm...req’d hp 1.55...Tc 12:00min...MMR 1.41in3/min ...........................................feed 0.004ipr_________________ req’d hp 1.24...Tc 15:00min...MMR 1.13in3/min 2nd gear...0.150” depth of cut...feed 0.005”ipr...SFM 236-150rpm...req’d hp 2.33...Tc 08:00min...MMR 2.12in3/min ______________________________0.003ipr__________________ req’d hp 1.40...Tc 13:33min...MMR 1.27in3/min _______0.130” depth of cut ______0.003ipr___________________ req’d hp 1.21...Tc 13:33min...MMR 1.10in3/min _______0.020” depth of cut_______0.006ipr __________________ req’d hp 0.37...Tc 06:66min..MMR 0.33in3/min 3rd gear 0.020” depth of cut______ 0.006ipr...SFM 409-260rpm___ req’d hp 0.64...Tc 03:85min...MMR 0.58in3/min 3rd gear...0.150” depth of cut...feed 0.005”ipr...SFM 409-260rpm...req’d hp 4.05...Tc 04:62min...MMR 3.67in3/min 4th gear...0.150” depth of cut...feed 0.005”ipr...SFM 660-420rpm...req’d hp 6.54...Tc 02:86min...MMR 5.93in3/min Compare with your notes...real world...rpms will be lower under load, tool wear can increase hp req’d 25%...lots of variables. Keep notes, photos from each job. You can also calculate wire req’d (lbs) & weld time; welding IS the time consumer… BuMach Sandvik app speaks Deutsch Mink French
Thanks Stanrus!
I know. Have seen the app. I dont use it. just play by feel and look on the box for the data. Try to stay away from the bigger nose radius. I've been testing from 0,6mm nose radius all the way to no radius and Starting from 0,3 its cutting better with no vibrations. I now use plates with 0,2mm or with no radius there are no Vibrations at all and no heat buildup. Even the spanners are still cool to the touch and not even discoloured. I can even do bores with only the single bearings on there so no bearing in the middle and there is no measurable difference in diameter. Also the ones i use now last a long time before the tipp breakes or they wear out. And they can also take a good beating. Good luck ray and looking forward to hear how the first bucks comes in
BuMach good info, thanks. Was just talking today to a guy who has done some very high profile jobs and he said pretty much the same thing as you. Just need to practice and get the feel. Looking forward to hearing about your new machine and when you start to bring in money with it too. I have a couple down days till I depart for AK, looking forward to hanging in the shop and honing my skills.
My machine will take a few weeks. They are building it as we speak and we got the holidays. But i can still work with the other one so im good for now. Actualy started today on my first 300mm bore repair. Was a lot off thinking how to get my setup right. Cause it was a blind hole. But i probely post some pics later next week or so. Good luck Ray and you learn it as you go mate. No worries.
Has anyone ever heard or done this durning setup? Giving the support bearing a lite tape prior to locking / welding them in place. I was told it relives the bearing and helps the boring bar travel with greater ease.
BuMach...what kind of holidays you guys have going on over there this time of year? Also, looking forward to some of the 12" bore repair pics:drinkup W.M., what is a "lite tape"? Regards, Bob
Bob, he said he uses a soft face rubber mallet, once he had everything in position just a "lite tap", sorry about that wrote that last one without my glasses.
Ray, i only done it a couple of times. It helped but usely i get away with tagging de brackets good. I only do it on the middle support bearings. At elsa those are just single bearings so they have a little bit play in them. When i tag weld them it sometimes starts making it harder to move the bar. Then i just tap them and then it moves again free. Eter: now the construction holiday is going to start like we call it. Then people who work in the construction can have there holiday. Back in the day everybody took the holiday. Now not everybody does it. The did it so everybody is closed at the same time. So no building materials and stuff. Helped with keeping everything going smoother cause everybody had holiday at the same time so not like we have now: "O no Dave just got on holiday and in two weeks Jerry and Tom are going too"....
BuMach thanks, I have been trying to not put much heat when I weld the bearing in, but have found it doesn't take much heat at all to just have them out ever so slightly and then the bar doesn't move fore and aft as well as before. This whole process of learning and perfecting it keeps my brain going for sure. Enjoy your holiday!
You do have a way to adjust the bearing after its been welded right? Some of my self aligning bearing are a bit tight in the swivel. After the bar is through I will often tap it with a soft hammer. That will make all the bearings self align.
Gotcha W.M. I guess that I should have figured out that one! Yup, tunking the self aligning bearings (the end bearings) does seem to help...not so much on the middle supports. I have to build some adjustables for in the middle as RayF suggests. BuMach, that is a pretty good idea on the Construction Holiday, I can see where it would keep everyone one the same sheet of music. Regards, Bob
RayF, NO provision for relieving residual welding stress caused by tacking to support brackets. RayS will be farting around wasting time every time he sets up. RayS, I’ve already replied in your thread LINE BORING SYSTEMS that you will have this issue! York’s support bearing design does not offer a simple fix, new parts are required...want assistance PM, not a freebie I won’t give free designs to Dennis Canbrey, York’s owner.
Thanks StanRus for your offer, already made some that are working so far.
W.M., Gonna have to see some cool pics at some point here on these bearing supports (not so creative on my own, need to borrow some ideas!). StanRUS, is that the York kit you have pictured above? (too tired to google). Regards, Bob
Bob, I don't own, use & have never seen a York in person. The photo is from York's promo video, downloaded and using VLC player a photo snap shoot. U tube link https://youtu.be/qfsUY6UVVgI VCL also can do slow motion and frame-by-frame, viewing the video that way I am less than impressed with the design of the carriage assembly, drive motor to boring bar interface (coupling). All the machines in the video have obvious boring bar run-out (not straight), that causes the carriage to wobble around...impedes bore machining accuracy-surface finish. Line boring IS NOT just about removing XXX amount of material but also how ROUND is the finish bore after the machining operation is finished...Roundness cannot be measured with any 2-point measuring instrument(s) all that gives you is a diametrical measurement across 2-points. All the machines except (Hofmann or Italian type) that require removal of support bearings to use a stand-alone bore welder require some means to realign the support bearing(s) after bore welding. WM's York; remove the bearing support's 4ea mounting bolts, @ re-install alignment relies on bar-to-bearing fit...any perpendicular bearing support's FACE-to-Bracket face issue can result with a bit of bore axis displacement... Older Climax Mod1149, NO spherical bearings, directly mounted to the support arms with 4ea 1/2"-NC bolts, 4ea 5/16th" jacking bolts to adjust perpendicular alignment & 4ea 5/16th" jacking bolts to adjust radial displacement (up-down-side-ways); NOT users friendly & very time wasteful...To use the 1149 without the mickey mouse procedure given by Cmax; LOCK spindle to boring bar with the spindle collects onto an ALIGNED BORING BAR, same for opposite support bearing (non adjustable-spherical directly mounted into the support arm) Lock collect to boring bar...push the arm hand tight against the work piece & tack weld @ closest point...if there a gap use metal scrap to bridge (washer, nut, re-bar, small wedges, 7018 welding rod with flux knocked off etc)...after tack welding both support arms...LOOSEN each mounting bolt (& face jack bolts) & retighten individually BEFORE loosening spindle-bearing collects. Loosen collects; bar has to slip back & forth easily!!!! Typically requires less than 15 minutes. Set-Up Cones, all they do is hold the bar to approximate center-of-bore axis, even Engine line borers' set-up cones & support bridges just hold the bar to approximate bore C/L...for construction equipment I never use them preferring 4 legged adjustable spiders used to align the bar. My buddy uses spiders & aluminum disc. Cmax, their BB5000 set-up video,' most of the time set-up cones are all you'll need'! Complete BS... To be continued
Thanks Stan, I did check out the youtuber on that one....W.M. I realize that I am not inventing the wheel here (or even re-inventing), but I have been using two and four bolt self-aligning bearing flanges and once the ends are locked on center, I can leave the middle support bearing flanges loose 'til the bar floats properly the snug the flange mount bolts down then tunk the bar again...this usually seems to have to be repeated. I am still planning on making supports that can be "dialed-in" though. Don't have any set up cones yet (I can see that they would be handy at times), but have been making bushings for my 1.5" bars as needed. Regards, Bob
Guys, working on the project...York is sending CAD prints for their Head Mount, prevent my wasting a few thous $$$ worth time guessing dimensions etc Photo spindle coupling-to-bar, to prevent galling caused by machining dust and make separation easier...cover the coupling area with bike inter tube kept in place with electrician's tap. Coupling is stainless:Banghead, stainless galls very easily Quick look at CAD file, Head Mount DOES have index; York's rep stated otherwise...their sales reps always goof up example 'we do not have a facing head for 2.25" bars' = wrong.
Modern Portable Line Boring 1903 Underwood, modern compared to 1775 Wilkinson - 1st portable line borer. WM, When you get back from Alaska, post couple photos of your York & DYI mounting plates...York does make a Mounting with 5/8" adjustment & 6deg spherical adjustment.
You know someone who are legitimate to work in Perth Australia as line borer? im in need now thanks.
Hello Ivy, PM Rayf, Perth is his' turf, he probably knows most of the lineboring mobs. Question, does Aussie-land have Poison Ivy?
Thanks StanRUS
Dean Eccles from Eccles lineboring services ltd is a good well knowledgable bloke around there. I dont have his nr yet cause i met him on Linkedin but if you want i can ask for it. Good luck
Thanks BuMach i think already connected to him via Linkedin
JLM Lineboring & Engineering, Perth Joepie van der Poll Borex Pty Ltc, Perth HR Wendy Pearson
Hello. I am looking to do a job that requires circlip but I do not know how to do with a line borer. I'm not facing head. Has anyone ever done it? Thank you!!
Circle Clip = Snap Ring Groove with line boring bar. NO automatic facing head! 1)...if the existing groove is not totally worn out, use copper tubing or wire shaped to fit into the groove before bore welding. When you bore the tubing or wire will machine-peel out. 2)...use HSS tool bit ground for cutting the groove...depth and groove width @ groove cutting end. 3)...to adjust cutting depth requires A...braze nut to HSS bit to use jack screw by pushing against bar advancing 0.0005" each adjustment. Start allow 20revs, stop, adjust, start allow 20revs...keep going until correct groove depth is achieved. Use heavy cutting oil! B...Grooving Thingy...make 2-3 identical split rings that clamp onto your boring bar, upper part of split rings with 0.375"-10mm bore. Semi circular grooving tool bit, shaft and threaded jacking arm. I'll email a cartoon, 6.30.17 with instructions
York line boring system have a circlip / snap ring tool.
York's Grooving Tool is pricey, like most OEM kits and cannot be mounted inline onto the boring bar. Look up Bokum Automatic Grooving Tool, 30-45 seconds per groove @ 150revs http://www.bokumtoolco.com/services.htm
BRS grooving tool can install onto boring bar
Nice grooving tool and is not very complicated
OEM's OBSESSION using centering-set-up cones Count every wasted step, like slide bar out, remove cone etc. Eibenstock 4-speed motor: Cmax = 8 to 160rpm; forces using HSS to machine small diameter bores because carbide required speed to survive! BRS, monkey see, monkey do.
I often do use cones on bores below 5 inch but the bloke is certainly making a career out of a simple job there. Although that is a general purpose video its actually a lesson how how not to set up top bores on a bucket. There is not the slightest use in trying to clock up to a worn bore (or any worn bore) Before those bores get due for machining they are going to be 20 to 40 thou out anyway and in practice way more. The only reliable method to setting up a top bucket bore as in that video is to have a bar though the bottom bores and set the top up true to that. If its not right the loader will chew itself apart. In the bottom video they say its good for 24 inch diameters with the electric motor. Good luck with that. On bores bigger than 2.5 inch I almost always use tungsten carbide inserts. I reckon chuck brazed tip in the bin. They would have to be the most expensive tooling you can buy. Get the right grade and right chip breaker design and slash your machining costs to a few bucks a week. You do need horsepower and stability and I'm not sure how they would go on the above equipment.
Thanks Ray, simple and to the point.
Hi Ray, Ray and Ray I knew you would spot setting up on the top inner bores 1st! Electrics and Worm Geared cutting torque, using Eibenstock Cmax 4:1/3.3hp = 475lbs ft, Hydratight 5:1 unknown (can't calculate torque without knowing worm gear pitch diameter)...BRS-Magtech 6:1 with 2-speed 1.6hp =1044lbs ft (1415Nm) 3.3hp will increase the cutting torque. Eibenstock motor reduces backlash at the bar (Cmax) from 11.3 degrees to 0.5 degrees (helps ensure uninterrupted cuts improves facing); 20 to 1 turn down ratio and overload protection AND reverse rotation. Use of 3:1 ratio with Eibenstock revs would be approx 12 to 240rpms / 2:1 ratio 16 to 320rpms. Electrics cannot compete with hydraulics' turn down ratio = variable rpm range! A bit of BB5000 redesign, using Timken cup #29620-29688 cone for 60mm bar and #20075 cone for 2.25 bar...hardened-finish honed spindle (Cmax drive key loosens just using 1.6hp Milwaukee)...Gear ratio 2:1...RDU feed screw mount 360 deg rotatable...feed screw slip-in instead screwing. Investment Al-Mag cast cases, grease zerk fittings etc. Cmax single mount arm okay to 9.75", larger bores require double mount arm. Cutting power IS NOT a issue machining weld built up bores, high gear, max rpm! 1 rough pass, 1 finish pass to 9.75" then 2 rough passes, 1 finish pass. So RayS, not so simple ! If you're using brazed on carbide; green grinding wheels ARE for rough shaping, not sharpening. Diamond wheels are used for sharpening using flood coolant. RayF is totally correct skip ALL 'wasting time @ $2.00+per minute' with brazed on and use throw away inserts. If your set-up is not rigid, neither type of carbide will work without chipping. Carbide can run @ WAY to slow of surface speed; HSS cannot operate @ higher revs and retain a sharp cutting edge. Even at correct revs in long bore you'll often end with a 'tapered bore' caused by edge wear. Enjoy your' holiday guys
Thanks Stan, Enjoy your holiday too...
StanRus, would you be so kind as to give me a basic idea what would be required to do this?
MILWAUKEE MOTOR 300/600 rpm (or use product search for different model/speed) https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/corded/4079 click specification, find Service Parts Lists and download pdf file for your model/serial number... Modified, remove diamond drill water/threaded adapter, shorten shaft using cut off tool (abrasive wheel) or milling machine (measure your existing motor's shaft length)...machine 1/4" keyway with milling machine. Where To Buy link...Tool Barn $727.49 current lowest price Need armature per part list # approx $200.00 +/- depending on where you purchase (try service centers) Motor Housing assembly approx $170.00
Thanks for the info, StanRus.