Hello everyone this is my first post and I have alot of questions. First, I am in the market to purchase a tracked skid steer, grapple bucket, tree shear and a dump trailer in the very near future. I have a $110,000 budget to work with. This will be a side line job to my permanent plant job. I only work 6 months a year out at the plant so I am looking to start somehting new. My plan for the skid loader is fence line clearing, underbrushing, and pasture tree shearing and spraying. And whatever other work comes up. What would you professionals recommend for the skidsteer? I am totally new to this and don't want to go in blind.
That's a healthy budget. What truck will tow the hungry animals?
2014 Dodge dually. Should be plenty
This is a refreshing change from the "what can I buy for 11K threads". I have liked my CASE TR320. I think a radial lift machine would suit the task well. I would certainly get high flow on whatever you chose, pick a good mower/mulcher. Hearing good things about the Bradco Landshark. It wont take long to blow through 100K.
Will the dumper be used to haul the skid? Sounds like you could utilize a 5 ton machine with the tree shearing if they are on the bigger side. With all the nasty terrain and dust you have down there you definitely need an enclosed cab with a/c (providing you're working the plant in the winter) that effectively keeps the dust out. Would recommend you skip the MTL (can tear up easily in rocky enviroment) and get a CTL (more durable). Don't know if you're intending to buy new or used, but personally, I'd shop for a low hour used unit and keep a lot of the cash for attachments. Might even want to seriously consider renting a unit for a month before you commit to buy. Lots of different options and variables to consider.
Yes my plan is to haul the skid steer with the dump trailer. Yes it will have cab air and so far I am very impresed with the Bobcat T770.
245 views and no one has any ideas for me?
I would schedule some demonstrations with the machines you have support for and see what you think. I would maybe consider looking for a lightly used CTL. Buying new when starting a new business, I don't think is always a good use of money. Perhaps find something under 500 hours, might save 15k or more. I would put more into the attachments. Unless you are looking at the largest fifth wheel 24K gvw trailers, I don't think these dump trailers have much value in these type applications. Simply not enough capacity to haul enough material to justify wearing out your pickup. I had a triple axle gooseneck when I first started, it was a stepping stone to a dump truck and that was about it. Hauling attachments is a PINA as well with these trailers.
Outlaw, I have to agree with Both KSSS and Swannny...first, you definitely have a nice budget to start with and better than most for sure...KSSS is right though, it will definitely go quick with getting all that stuff. Swannny is correct also with some points...some points or things to think about is, if your going to haul the loader and attachments in dump trailer, what are you going to do when it's just a one day job, let's say and you have the dump trailer loaded..make multiple trips to get the equipment then to I assume. When it comes to the machines and brands, the advice I got from everyone on here recently when asking about trading my wheeled loader for a newer one came down to a few things..first, what dealers are in your area? Find out who has the best dealer support, etc..it sounds like you already have Bobcat there..what about Case, Cat, etc..dealer support is huge from what guys say and it's true..also, as Swannny said, I would demo all the different brands to see what u like before you go and buy..the last thing u want to do id buy a machine u think u like, then are in it for a while and don't like it. There are guys on here that I'm sure would attest to that happening. KSSS had even mentioned to me when I posed that question before, to actually even try to have all the machines you are looking at on the same job, trying all the same things so you get a good comparison..I would also agree with looking at a low hour machine to buy vs brand new..it's kind of like the whole saying when you buy a new car or truck, the minute you pull it off the lot you lost $$$..you can find a great low hour machine and save a good bit... If I were you, with your budget, I would price out the cost for the trailer and all the attachments you want, then you can back into what you want to spend on a machine or vice versa. I would also leave yourself some wiggle room as far as money, in case you have those slow times..
Agreed..dump trailers are NOT fun by any means when it comes to hauling equipment...
There is a lot of conversation that could take place on the business side of things. Perhaps you have done this, if not I think its an important aspect of selecting equipment. Define specifically what you want to do in your business. This should be compared with how many contractors in your area already provide the same service. Learn what gaps of service exist in your area and look into filling those areas. Understand their pricing structure and be sure you can or want to compete. I have found that diversity is very important. That's where an assortment of attachments can really help keep a machine moving. Maybe picking up a mini ex would be a good idea. Once you know specifically the types of work you want to do, you than can make a more informed decision on the types of equipment you need to accomplish your goal. You suggest clearing fence lines and pastures, then running mowers and mulchers is something you will likely be doing, that will mean hydraulic performance is important. Find what type of specific attachments you want to run (that's a topic all on its own) and match your CTL to the demands of the attachments. I would make sure you can get at the radiator and hyd. coolers because you will be clogging them. Quality of the cab is huge. Consider things like gpm and psi especially on the high flow pump. As I stated the money can go fast. If you spend 50K on a CTL ( that is definitely nearly new price, not brand new), 10K on a Davco type mower, 15K on a fifth wheel dump trailer, 2500 on a grapple bucket, maybe find a used mulcher for 15K. You can easily burn 10k on support equipment like fuel transfer tanks, hand tools, licensing, insurance, advertising and so forth and that's 102K. You certainly want to do some research (if you haven't) on your market and what areas you really want to concentrate on. You don't want to spend all this to find out that your area of work is already crowded with contractors cutting each others throat.
With the cost of a pickup you can buy a nice dump truck and pintle hitch trailer, be much safer, and get a lot more done. The downside is licensing, but its still worth it in the end.
Yair . . . That's the way I think durallymax and, as I have mentioned here before, a nice little trail bike on there is handy for running errands and getting home at night . . . depending on security of course. Cheers.
There's some good advice been given and I'll give my $.02. As far as the skid, I agree with KSSS and find a "nearly" new machine preferably interim Tier IV or Tier III without the emissions equipment. If I had $110K set aside to start a new business, I would set aside at least $20K in cash reserves for the company. If you will be running mulchers and mowers you need some money in the kitty to keep them running. I would look at a regular gooseneck trailer to haul the skid and attachments around and hire out any trucking when needed. As your business develops you can determine if you need a dump truck or not. Personally I find it cheaper to hire trucks out and we do a lot of hauling. As it's also been said, there are other costs involved getting this business started that's not equipment related. Insurance, licensing, corporation start up costs and taxes. I would highly suggest starting an LLC to operate the business under for legal protection, the last thing you want is someone coming after your home and retirement because you were operating in your personal name.
all very excellent advice...
A lot of good advice so far now my .02 Go to your dealerships and spend some time in the machines you are considering if you are going to spend days in the thing you want it to be comfortable for you. How is visibility etc questions that only you can answer.
Look into New holland machines, the visibility around the cab and engine compartment is great, I like to give myself the best view of what I am smashing into..hahah. The NH machines are balanced well and seem pretty rugged, I have an old lx565 wheeled machine with 9000 plus hrs on it and it still goes to work for me.
So far good replies here. I have decided against the dump trailer. Probably going with a triple axle goose neck. I will have to have a CDL in Texas to legally pull that trailer. 3-7K axles plus 10K truck equals over 30K combined weight. Didn't see that coming. I did test a new Kubota svl90-2 today. I really don't have anything to compare it to yet. I went by the CAT dealer but the salesman was out playing golf. Buisness is booming down here in the Eagle Ford Shale and they are throwing brush clearing contracts out like candy. Land owners are getting rich and spending money to clear property also. I haven't operated enough different machines to even start comparing. I am at the mercy of the salesman and you guys, and I trust yall's opinion more than a salesman. I am going to buy a 14" Timberwolf tree sheer with grapple, a Bradco ground shark extreme duty, and a industrial grapple. I just want to make sure I have the right machine for the job. Thanks everyone
I agree with the two ton dump truck and Pinter trailer thought......I will tell you what worked for me building a personal arsenal of compact equipment....I did it "JOHNNY CASH STYLE".....1 piece at a time! After all.......all it really takes is TIME and MONEY.....and I haven't run out of TIME yet! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I have a Mustang MTL325 (Tak TL250) that I'm selling and financing a Kubota SVL90-2. The reasons I'm selling the MTL is that the money from the MTL sale will pay off some other debt, and the net result is lowering my monthly payments ~$800. The reasons I picked the Kubota SVL90-2: It (allegedly) has the quietest cab on the market. I have sensitive hearing, which I would like to keep. The salesman says the 90-2 is quieter than my KX057-4. The salesman sells Bobcat and Kubota. The cab is roomy. I'm 6'2", most other cabs are a bit small, with the exception of the TL12. The TL12 is quieter than the TL250, but still hard to listen to the radio comfortably. The roll up door seems vastly superior to a swing out door with regards to safety, easy of getting out when stuck, etc. The peak aux hp output is only 4.4hp behind the Bobcat T870. The Bobcat peaks at 2500psi, the SVL peaks at 3500psi. The T870 drops off quick after 2500psi. Numbers taken by the Kubota/Bobcat service tech (assuming unbiased). The tracks are easy to clean out. The TL250 isn't bad, but it has more "legs" coming down to the undercarriage, making cleaning a little tougher. The Bobcat looks to be awful to clean out. My KX057 takes 1-2 minutes per side, even when packed full. Lastly, the price was favorable, although that's a minor consideration. I should have it in the next week or two and will report back somewhere on the forum. Tandem duals are VASTLY superior to tri singles. If I was buying a new trailer I would get tandem 12klb axles with 17.5" tires and call it a day.
Lumberjack, Thanks for the reply. I will look into the dual 12K axles. And yes that Kubota is quiet.
Outlaw, that is a good move not going with the dump trailer..I think you would find you wouldn't be happy with one, especially having to use it to haul a machine. My buddy had found like an older F600 (I believe it's that) dump truck for like $6-$7k..that may be a good way to go as well for not only the towing but using it to load stuff as well..you could even look into a used dump style stake body truck also.. Like others have said, the best thing to do is to call all the dealers and demo the machines to see which you like best. As far as attachments, I've been pricing out for a grapple rake...I found solesbee equipment to have a nice grapple rake...72" for $2100 plus shipping to me which would be around $160.00...I did look into the bradco brand on attachments, but their prices seemed to be almost double verses others...try giving Solesbee equipment a call and ask for Gage.. He was really nice and helpful. I know they sell the mower/mulcher also...I had posted a thread on here about it and got some good feedback on it, which is why I decided to go with them. The post was rock verse rake grapple...if you want to check it out.
Goose neck trailers are great for towing and weight capacity, but you lose any storage area in the back of the truck, plus you have a goose neck hitch taking up space in the bed when you don't have the trailer....A 12 or 14k tag along trailer should carry the size machine you are looking for with no issue, then you can forget the need for a CDL I think.... I also like Lumberjacks comment on a slide up door on the Kubota CTL, that seems like a really good idea...
Agreed on the GN. When I purchased a TR320 I worked a 14k BP trailer into the deal for an extra 1k. I tow with a flatbed dually and plan on putting any additional attachments on the flatbed instead of the trailer. Given the weight of my 14k GN it's easy to overload the trailer, even when moving things forward for more hitch weight.
I'd look into the Cat 299D. I work at an equipment rental yard and we have one. Its very impressive.
Outlaw......I agree with CM1995 "interim Tier IV or Tier III without the emissions equipment" should be looked at as the 1st option, even if the cost for a used machine with a few hundred hours is almost the new price. Bobcat is now using the Doosan Final Tier 4 diesel ON SOME MODELS and it does NOT have a DPF (diesel particulate filter) on it. Avoid the DPF. DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst) is OK since it is a bit more like the catalytic converter on any vehicle. Some engine mfrs. have figured out how to avoid the high maintenance DPF by improving the 'burn' in the cylinder. Jsinpa is on the money.......the dealer is more important than the brand. Fuel quality is also more important than ever with the new engines. Pressurizing diesel fuel to 30,000 PSI leaves no room for dirt. The smallest dirt particle you can see is 30 microns. The common rail injection systems are going to be filtered way beyond that to 2 or 4 microns so you can imagine how quick that filter and even the 10-20 micron pre filter will say enough!!!!! and cause restriction resulting in power loss and even engine damage. Best of all to you.
GapPowerWilly....why are you saying to stay away from the machines with DPF...I demo'd a newer machine during one of our big snow storms which had that on it...when it went off (the signal), I called the sales guy and he told me not to shut it off and just let it run and then it went away...So being that I'm not running machines everyday...why would you say to stay away from the machines that have the DPF? with all the new emissions...what are your options then? I rely on all of the knowledgeable people in here when it comes to finding out all this type of information..
Jsinpa........"all the knowledgeable people" I can only speak for myself.........I learn more here than I bring to it. Avoid DPF's because they are no longer the only way to meet Tier 4 Final emissions. I see more and more diesel mfrs. are producing under 100 HP machines w/o them. If you buy a new machine it likely will be Tier 4 Final. Engine mfrs. like Doosan/Bobcat, Deutz, JCB, and Kohler/Lombardini have new diesels that meet Tier 4 w/o DPF. If I am reading the writing on the wall correctly in a very short time all engine mfrs. will be able do away with DPF on the under 100 HP range. Over 100 HP (prox) and the game changes - you end up with DPF, SCR (urea) or a combination of technologies tuned to the higher exhaust flow.
Well that's the thing...I'm not looking at new machines....I've been looking at newer machines, but used, like the Case alpha series..which I know is tier 4, but also has the DPF.....so why is the "reasoning" behind you saying avoid them? is there issues with them? I guess here's the thing then....if your saying avoid machines with DPF....what machines does that leave me with to look at, which aren't brand new machines...what manufacturers?
DPF's can plug up and aren't exactly cheap to replace.
A DPF is just another item on the machine that can be prone to failure, among many others. Eliminating failures in your equipment is just good risk management.
I just purchased a new Case SR200 with a build date of Oct 2013 and is called a 2014. Is doesn't have the any of the tier 4 interim or final mods. It's a good old diesel that smells a bit but is reliable. In 2011 I bought a new Ford f750 with the Eurea and other emissions s....t. Nothing but trouble. Stay away.
Not all Alpha's are Tier 4i. Mine is a Tier 3, its an early 2012, I think mid year they went T4i. I should have just bought a SV300 at the same time I bought the TR320. I would have saved money and had a machine with less EPA junk to maintain. I thought about it at the time I just need to replace my big excavator more than I needed the wheeled skid steer. There are T3 Alpha's out there on the used market.
Jsinpa......Guess I did skip over that. As others have posted, the cost of replacing $1000-2000, or cleaning $300-500 is not a matter of if but when and combined with the annoying regeneration cycle will hurt your ROI. Almost all machines sold new in 2012 did not have Tier 4 Final so no DPF. Many sold in 2013 did not either. The pre/post line is a bit blurry to me as a buyer and don't expect all salesmen to have that answer..........fair or unfair, it's a great test of the salesman .
So, if I'm looking at a 2011 or 2012, particularly in a Case model lets say, I shouldn't have to worry about it being a tier 4 as much with the DPF.... GapPowerWilly...holy crap on those added costs!! Geesh!!...Well, then its safe to say, as you said, I should stay away from those machines....Last thing I need is more "added" costs for stuff... This forum is great!!! The information I get from here helps me so much. So now, I know to ask if its Tier 4 with that on it or not. Thanks guys!!!!
When I was looking at the case unit I questioned the dealer about it not been a tier 4 interm and he said that they could at the time still order from Case a new SR200 with a tier 3 engine. The engine manufacturers could not build any more tier 3's. But they still engines in stock for the new SR200 without all the DPF and such. My bill of sale says the unit is a 2014. If you check around with your Case dealers they may have the same units in stock in the US.
Why can't I just delete it like I did my truck. Its not hard to do.
I think you likely could. Cleaning up the computer so that it doesn't throw codes might take some work, but certainly it could be done. It is more easily done in pickups because they are more common, there are companies that make money tearing all the stuff off, so there is incentive. On the heavy equipment side I don't think at least at this point there is quite so much incentive to remove the Tier 4 equipment. So finding someone with the know how to clean up the computer might be difficult, but certainly not impossible.
Ok, so just to add to my knowledge and confusion on this stuff...After reading a little more and looking at things, is it the DPF (diesel particulate filter) that all of you guys don't like or the CEGR (re-circulated exhaust gases reduce) that you don't like? (as what I have read up on with the Case machines per say) What's a tier 3 have then that is different? I was under the assumption that most manufacturers have some type of DPF on their machines...
Huh? Turnover balls take up no bed space. Bobcat's machines with their midsize motor meet Tier 4F without a DPF These would be machines under 75hp. Its important to look at the total package, you cant have your cake and eat it too. DPF's reduce PM, PM is unburned fuel. To burn more of the fuel you advance timing and increase cylinder temps as well as oxygen in the cylinder. This creates a hot clean burn, however it creates immense amounts of NOX. To reduce NOX you use EGR to recirculate the exhaust and limit the amount of oxygen available. You can also retard timing to cool the combustion temps, or you can use SCR downstream to treat it chemically. If you reduce the temps in cylinder to reduce NOX you increase PM which will plug the DPF faster. Most of the OEM's Tier 4F solutions I wouldn't be afraid of, this stuff has been out for awhile and a lot of bugs have been worked out. The majority of the issues have come from the operators themselves not dealing with the emissions stuff properly, often because they think its "dumb" so they neglect it and then blame it whenever something goes wrong. The off road emissions brackets are: less than 11hp, 11-25hp, 25-50hp, 50-75hp, 75-175hp, 175-750hp, 750hp+. SSLs fall in the 50-75 and 75-175hp brackets. Both have similar PM requirements but 75-175hp has a much stricter NOX requirement. If cleanable its a couple hundred dollars usually, replacement can be over 1000 though. Most have made theirs cleanable so replacement shouldn't be needed. Because you need a way to tell the computer its not there. The DPF is the main one people don't like. I don't like them either, but I don't feel I can change the emissions standards so I deal with it. The benefit to everybody being scared of them is it lowers the price on those machines to a point you can afford to have an issue and still be ahead. Personally I would not worry, its a lot of hype based on the early issues of the DPFs from 07-10 in on road vehicles, things have gotten a lot better. If you want to avoid all risk you can buy an older machine though too,. but it might break somewhere else. You might get in a crash on your way to a jobsite too, your house may just burn down. In life there's risks. A DPF is not one to loose sleep over. Just me though. Lots of Tier 4 equipment on our farm.
Durallymax...thanks for the input....how did you become so knowledgeable on the process and the fine details? Sounded almost like an engineering background. I absolutely agree with you though. I can go older like I currently have and I'm fixing stuff..or go newer and have less overall issues. Thanks for the input. By the way, what are you running at your place?
Because you need a way to tell the computer its not there. They make simulators you plug into the harness when you remove the DPF this sends the ECU a messages that all is well. No codes no regens.
Yes they do for many things with bigger markets (many are now off the market), so go make one for your skid.
Durallymax. Good point on the truck experience in those 3 years 07, 08, 09. One thing on that......used truck buyers, myself included, either avoid those years or have the DPF removed and a standard gated turbo installed. The bad reputation is well deserved. Manifolds loosening, bad MPG etc. Truck mfr's can not use DPF to meet the 2010 requirements, it's just not possible. They now must use diesel exhaust fluid DEF which is also called urea, and selective catalytic reduction SCR. By getting rid of the DPF and it's inherent problems surrounding heat and it's need for maintenance they can now finally tune the engines they way they should be tuned - max power, minimum heat buildup and minimum fuel. That is why MPG on the big trucks are back up to 07 levels - or better in most cases by virtue of these changes and all new engines. All in all, I'm happy I have only 1 Tier 4 Final machine.
Every truck since 2007 has had a DPF and still does to this day, they cannot meet the on road emissions without a DPF. This goes for big trucks and passenger trucks as they both have their own emissions regs. Re-read my post above about the relationship between NOX and PM to understand how the DPF, SCR and EGR work. To explain it again briefly, the DPF traps PM/soot. SCR uses DEF to chemically treat the NOX in the exhaust. The two have entirely seperate jobs, but as one's job increase generally the other ones job falls off. Hot combustion has lower PM and keeps the DPF clean, but produces a lot of NOX so the SCR goes to work injecting DEF to keep the NOX levels down. When the engine is running cooler there is less NOX but more PM and the temps are not high enough for the DPF to cleanse either, thus it starts to load up with soot. The reason the newer engines with SCR are getting better fuel economy is because they can be tuned for power and efficiency because NOX levels are no longer a huge concern thanks to the SCR. This also reduces the load on the DPF and keeps it cleaner.
Durallymax. I was wrong and stand corrected. Thank you. Trucks using DEF still have a DPF as you pointed out. Good to learn that and to get my info corrected. Just another example of how a forum like this is so helpful to all of us.
Well after much debate I purchased a 2014 Bobcat T770. They say it will roll off the production line on 4/22/14. We will see
Oulaw38 Good choice and best of all to you in this new venture. (be a bit fanatical about dumping only clean fuel into that beast) Do a web search on this for a great article fuel filtration construction pros .com
Hey outlaw38, can you tell me how many bolt holes and teeth your sprocket has on your 770, I am trying to crossover older machine parts from Bobcat, any info you could give me would be appreciated!! Thanks, trackguy
I won't have it until the end of April.