I have a Case JX1100U. It wont start and when I checked the timing it s retarded. Anybody seen something like this? It has a Bosch fuel pump.
I'm not sure of the type of pump on that machine BUT I DO KNOW Bosch fuel systems.. 1st thing to check is> are you turning the engine in the correct rotation?? get someone to "bump" the starter to MAKE SURE.. IF you are going in the correct direction..starting in the 90's Bosch went "keyless" on ALOT of their driveshafts and if the correct torque was not applied to the driveshaft nut, it would slip.. I would start w/ correct engine rotation first cuz it will give a retaded timing reading.. IF you can get the 10 digit P# off the pump, I can tell you real quick if its keyed or not..
I have the correct rotation. I pulled the pump and there looks like a taper bushing similar to an axle taper bushing under the nut. The nut was not loose. There dosent seem to be a number that I can see under all that paint. I am told that this is a VE pump if that helps. So to me it looks like the gear may have turned on the shaft loosing timing. If thats the case will I need to get this pump redone to set the timing back to where it should be. Or will I be able to time it myself? I locked the pump @ #1 TDC. If I need to do this myself it could be a challenge. Getting to the gear cover may require major work.
I just looked up your pump. It does NOT have a keyed driveshaft. BUT it does have a "cold start device" that explodes and causes a NO START CONDITION and has a direct effect on the pump timing..I'm working on 1 as we speak, on a Kabelco excavator.. Engine timing is critical when pulling the pump..and unless you have the proper tools to set the pump timing, a shop will have to do it. the tools can be had cheaply [dial indicator and adaptor]on another website if you wanna give it ago.. Once you get the pump off, turn it over and you'll see a flat plate w/2 star headed screws[torx t30] remove them and that will tell you if your pump beat itself to death..very obvious..your looking at about 1500..for a rebuild. HOPE its not that serious..
Took the plate off. theres not much to see. The hole, about the size of a quarter, has a metal piece thats in there. I think its a part of the cold start system.
I was looking further into this and it seems that my cold start mechanism has power going to it when the engine is cold. This would retard my timing. Question is will it retard timing enough to not start? When I try to start it it fires a few times with alot of white and a few puffs of black smoke.
The BIG SIDE with the pipe going to it wont tell you anything, unless you know what your looking at..kinda hard to explain..you have to remove the "engine side plate", the flat 1.. and you cant get to it unless you remove the pump cuz its on the "engine block side"..
The CSD is supposed to ADVANCE the timing while cranking and "warming-up"..if its "blown-out" it wont advance and you'll get white smoke on account of a cold engine..hope this helps..TPG Like I said.. I've seen hundreds of these pumps do the same thing..theres actually a service bulliten on the FACT.. its caused by> 1>air entering the fuel system or 2> improper filter change out..
I have the pump off. So if air gets to the pump it can blow out the CSD? My CSD is energized with 12 volts at cold start, so it seems that it wouldnt advance the timing on cold start.
Its VERY HARD to explain by typing..But yes..Altho you have 12v to the solenoid while cold and none when warm, altho you haven't gotten that far..the CSD could be blown..USUALLY it beats the piston out on the "back side" AGAINT THE FLAT COVER.. which takes out the main pump housing..IF you will take off the flat cover with the "arrow" on it we might make some progress..
I did take it off. The piston is about the size of a quarter. It shows signs of rubbing against the cover. There is a wear mark on the cover.
Is the piston chipped around the edges and showing "white"??
No its not. I dont see any marks on it. Only marks on the cover wher it was rubbing.
rubbed enough paint off to expose the numbers. most surely is a ve pump. dont have the numbers with me right now.
V e /12 f 1250 l 1013-1
pumpguy? you still there?
I'm in and out..whattcha got..??
I still havent sorted this problem out. Do you think I need to get this pump rebuilt?
Most definatley..IF WE cant sort it out..then "someone" needs to lay some hands on it..could be you got the flyweights out of place?? Hard to say w/o seeing it.. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but hey, I tried..TPG BTW> BE SURE and tell your rebuilder, what you have done [head change out and gov. linkage adjustment] so they don't miss anything..and by all means..tell them about the SURGE afterwards.. IT COSTS EXTRA when the customer lies .LOL IF your not straight forward..its hard to pinpoint the EXACT PROBLEM.. Example> customer came in..w/a "leaking pump"..runs fine, just leaks..NO PROBLEM..I could tell he ALREADY tried to "fix" it himself by the chisel marks on the "special bolts" you need a special tool to get off.. And when I got into it..he had ALL THE INTERNALS 180* out of time!! SO I KNEW it "didn't run fine" cuz it would have NEVER FIRED.. Lieing will cost you 100's of dollars extra..DONT DO IT.. Just a tip from your Uncle Pump Guy..
Uncupump, I think you have my pump mixed up with another guys pump. I havent done anything except turn the engine to 1tdc, lock the pump, remove the pump, and remove the cover. I really do appreciate the help. And your right, when folks come in with broken stuff and fibs, they pay more. Its just that it takes a whole lot more time and effort to get it right again. You been there dozens of times.
Your exacly right..I'm confused.. A fuel shop or me, will have to check/reset the timing..if you don't have the special adaptor and dial indicator..
Ok Im gonna get it looked at.
Pulled off the cold start device. Lots of ugly little crumbs in there. The big pistn was stuck in the bore. The little one is also stuck in its bore.
YUP, that's what I was afraid of..USUALLY you can tell from the "other side" and its easier to put back together, just 2 screws.. Not a lot you can do from here..time to send it off..gonna be $$$... The 1 I finished Friday was 1500.00 new main pump hsg. new timing piston and new cold start hsg and cs. piston w/ gasket.kit, mounting gasket, overflow valve and calibration.. IF your in the States..I can help..TPG
Where would all the little pieces of steel, or other ferous metal come from? They dont look like any part of the cold start system. But then, I dont know much about pumps to start with.
You probably didn't notice but the small piece with the rod going thru the center of it has a place for a clip on the end of it..the clip is probably GONE and the rod just slides freely thru the seat?? That's your metal..It bangs around in there until it locks the timing piston up and the engine either develops a leak or stops starting..
That little spool and c-clip looked ok to the naked eye. The springs looked ok also. I just cant see where those pieces entered into the cold start system. Could be that I didnt analize it close enough. The timing piston will only travel about 1/4 - 5/16 of an inch either way tapping it with a plastic hammer. Im not gonna force it any more. Not that it matters much cause the main pump housing is probly scored beyond saving anyway. Same as the cold start housing. Should I knock it out just for the sake of gaining a better insight as to how it works? Im always up for a science project.
The clip is still there?? that's almost unheard of!! The piston is held in the housing on the inside by a steel pin and retaining clip..you can access it by removing the 4 torx screws in the head..BUT the top cover must be removed and inorder to do that, you have to disassemble the throttle..Theres ALOT of steps and I DONT recommend it..ESPECIALY if your gonna send it for rebuild.
Ok thats the end of this one. Thanks for all your help.
So thats not the end. I got a reman pump from the dealer cause thats what the guy wanted. The new pump does not have the Manifold pressure compensator. Im thinkin this pump is for a non turbo engine. The dealer is telling me that thats the only pump listed. Im not gonna put it on till I can verify.
That's a HUGE waste of time my friend..IF the old one had a MPC on it, then the new one should to.. I'll look it up and see if the Bosch site gives the OEM pump # and you can verify your # to it. Hell, for that matter, if you still have the old pump just match the 0 460 #'s..
Bosch #> 0 460 424 328 Bosch #> VE4/12F1250L1013-1 Case#> 504 068 392 The #'s on the new pump have to match.
I just spoke to another dealers parts dept. And they told me the same thing. Thanks again for the help.