G'day guys I seeking to hear your ideas on a thought i have had for a while now. What makes it american made or australian or chinese made? Because say for example is it american or australian made if all the parts are just imported from china and put together in australia or america? or how many of the parts need to be made in china for it to be chinese? and not american or where ever else? Or is it the workers putting the machine together? because we have 4 australians working in china for our company and we often put the machines together and weld up the rippers we make so are they australian made ? or chinese? Also what about a chinese company going to australia or america and opening up a factory a using a lot of chinese staff at them factorys what do you class them products as? Anyways i really want to hear what you guys think.
If it's designed and made in China with Chinese management and Chinese QC - it's Chinese crap. If it's designed and made in China with Chinese management and Chinese QC, and then sold in America with a top American brand name plastered all over it - it's still Chinese crap. If it's designed and made in China with Australian, American, English, or German management, and using Australian, American, English or German design and QC - it's better quality Chinese crap. If it's designed and made in Australia, America, the U.K. or Germany, using local labour - it's better than anything designed and made in China. If it's assembled in China with Australian workers, Chinese management and Chinese QC - it's still Chinese crap. If it's assembled in China with Australian workers, Australian management, and Chinese QC - it's still Chinese crap. If it's assembled in China with Australian/American/English/German workers, Australian/American/English/German management and Australian/American/English/German QC (including raw material control) - it's equal to anything produced in the West. If the Chinese move to Australia/America/the U.K./Germany and open up a factory, they will get a severe shock, and will not be able to compete - because they will find they have to meet consistent standards, and meet many regulatory conditions that do not exist in China. The Sino Iron, Iron Ore mine in NW Western Australia is typical of the Chinese sharp learning curve when they move to Western countries. The Chinese arranged to start up their own Iron Ore mining operation from scratch - using large amounts of Chinese input via raw materials and labour. Naturally, they had to meet Australian Standards for everything from safety to electrical, plumbing, construction codes - you name it. They got a shock. They had no idea we had such tight industry standards, and they have continually struggled to meet them - both in product, and in the paperwork to back it up. The project is more than 2 yrs behind schedule and about 100% over budget. The Chinese are not happy - but they have learnt how to do things properly, with no shortcuts.
well everything is made in china now, or some place else now, not in america, 47% of us don't work.
Australian Made/Austrailan Grown might be able to tell you: http://www.australianmade.com.au/consumer-site/ Otherwise maybe try the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission: http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/142
Mate not sure if you got my meaning by this question
Maybe I didn't get your meaning. If I didn't, then I probably still don't because you haven't expanded on it. Maybe you could? You want to know what makes something Australian made or not. To be entitled to use the Australian made logo, you have to meet the criteria set by them. If you meet the criteria set by them, you can call it Australian made.
Well mate Then i guess i can import all the parts of the machines from china and just put them together in australia and call them australian made and use the logo then in that case. but to me i would feel that they where not australian made as 90% of the parts would be made over seas and not in Australia.
If you meet the "Australian Made" criteria, as detailed on the Australian Made/Australian grown website, then 50% or more of the cost of making the machine has to have occurred in Australia. So if you import all the parts from China, put them together in Australia, and the putting together costs more than the parts, then you will be entitled to call it Australian made. If this is what you did, I would be happy with you calling it Australian Made. Even with only 50% of the costs being incurred here, you would still be doing more to help the economy and provide jobs than the others are. If you could use Australian Made parts as well, even better. Of course 100% of the costs being incurred in Australia is the best case scenario, but 50% is still a whole lot better than nothing.
Apple products are "Designed in California" lol. Just make the best product and the best quality with the best service you can, and let the chips fall where they may. The Japanese had an uphill struggle in the beginning but hardly anybody questions their quality now. Same story is happening with Korea, and China is on that same horizon. Another question might be on the profit side.... For example Toyota and Honda do a lot of manufacturing in the USA, but their profits end up in Japan.
Odozer, you pretty much hit it on the head. Only thing you missed is that if it is copied by the chinese it is also chinese crap. Unfortunately the various ****-a-mamey legal descriptions of country of orgin are a fiasco of how orgin is discribed. You may think you can make it look better then traditional chinese crap with your description JSGParts but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck. Just had this discussion yesterday with some people yesterday and their opinion is the same. In the recent past few weeks I have heard directly of other companies here in the states refusing to accept items manufactured here in the US using chinese steel and castings due to the quality issues and excessively high warranty claims due to failure caused by inferior chinese items used in the process. The chinese have not got it yet and I don't think they ever will.
I'll sum this up real short and tidy---If it breaks,it's Fabrique en Chine---Hergestellt in China---Hecho en China,orrrrrr,for us Austrailian,North American,and other English speaking lands it's simply ''Made INFERIOR'' !!!!!
"The Chinese have not got it yet and I don't think they ever will." Pretty doom and gloom statement. And most likely false.
Greg sez: "The chinese have not got it yet and I don't think they ever will. " They used to say the same thing about the Japanese made machines Then the Korean made machines
Exactly....
It may be doom and gloom, but it's the foreseeable future- at least for our lifetimes. The comparisons to the Japanese are broad brushed and lack any acknowledgement of the stark differences in business culture between the two countries. The Chinese manufacturing sector is still focused on selling high volume for cheap. Until that changes, they will maintain their current reputation.
No offense, intended, here, but it is obvious their reputation will change when their quality improves (which it is). FURTHER, you make no reasoning for the statement that their quality won't improve in out lifetime. I agree with you completely that Japanese and Korean cultures are much different than Chinese culture and therefore make comparisons difficult, but they proved people wrong, and that is the point.
Huntoon, I agree with you on the Japanese and the Koreans. It took them each about 20 years to get it together. Their quality has been good for some time. However with the chinese it is a different thing. The chinese started coming on line in the mid 1980's. That puts them at 27 years and counting. Their steel is still crap, their castings from their foundries are still full of defects, they change design of the items they are making for export without asking in order to cut corners, the list goes on. When they are called on it the attitude is "so what." As I stated just a few posts ago on here many companies in this country have started to bring back production of items from china to here. Others are refusing to accept items manufactured using chinese steel and castings from chinese foundries.
Many fair points are made, but I think it is a gross assumption that: a. they are 27 years behind. b. their castings are crap c. they cut corners d. their attitude is "so what" a: they are 27 years behind? Rapid 3d design, prototyping, the internet, email, robotics, automation etc all have an effect on how much faster people can advance. China should have an easier time coming "on-board" than the Japanese or Koreans. b,c, & d: their castings are crap, they cut corners, and they don't care. My personal experience says otherwise. I know and work with Chinese engineers who feel shame to their country because of these perceptions. They would never purposely deceive a customer and they know the reputation of not only them, their company but also their nation is on the line. Of course, your experience and many other have probably been different. But times change, and hopefully these politically tainted sentiments will fade with time. Now, I would like to agree with you though, that there is a ton of BS made there and a lot of shady operators. It's kind of the Wild East over there in the Heavy Equipment world. Soon enough it will be settled and maybe we'll move on to Africa! Just my crazy 2 cents
joispoi has nailed it. The Chinese do not have the same attention to construction detail, and the same understanding of the requirements of the design of mechanised equipment, as the Japs and the Koreans do. The Chinese suffer from more than one major failing. Their primary failing is "Quality Fade". Google it, and you see what a problem it is. They have no understanding of the necessity, nor the requirement for QC that continuously meets a high standard. They specialise in bulk production, and leave the QC to the customer. I've seen container loads of Chinese goods (tools, household products) where more than 20% of the container load was thrown straight in the rubbish skip. Items that were covered in rust, items that had casting flaws, machining flaws, finish flaws, assembly flaws. They drag peasants from the rice paddies and install them in factories to manufacture and assemble their goods. The peasants produce items for English-speaking countries - but they can't understand a word of English themselves, let alone read it. Then there's the translation problem, where English technological terms have no direct translation into Chinese. I was reliably informed by a Chinese "insider", that there are around 200,000-300,000 Chinese in China, who are the people at the cutting edge of their massive industries. The 200,000-300,000 Chinese, who are the countrys technological leaders, are people who have been to Western countries, such as America, Britain and Australia - and who have been university educated to highly skilled levels, and they understand Western methods and systems. However, these people have to work with 6 Billion Chinese, who have no education, no understanding of the Western world, or its requirements for excellent QC, high technical standards, and high quality. Corruption is endemic in China, and it leads to disastrous problems. The recent major Chinese rail disasters were the result of corruption, that meant that safety systems were compromised. The final nail in the coffin of the Chinese is that they DO NOT UNDERSTAND the principle of good dealerships, good parts and service backup, and BRAND NAME IMAGE. You buy a Cat, it has 100% service and parts backup, and it comes with a name that has built a reputation for unparalleled build quality, QC standards that set the bar for everyone else, and a history of doing all this for over 85 yrs. The Chinese have never had the exposure to American technology and systems, like the Japanese and Koreans have. After WW2, defeated Japs were given the job of reconditioning huge amounts of U.S. Military equipment, to ensure employment for them. The Japs had massive exposure to American engineering skills, parts systems operations, construction methods, repair methods - in fact, a major education for them in how to operate along American lines and what was required in the final result. The Japs also have very good attention to detail - a vital factor in engineering, manufacturing, repair, design, and virtually anything that is needed to produce world standard goods. Until the Chinese change their attitude from "cheapest is best", they will never reach the same standards as the Japs or Koreans, and neither will they be able to shake the "Chinese crap" tag.
True but it's a global marketplace. Living in a State that has a Honda, Mercedes, Toyota and Hyundai assembly plant I can see first hand the impact to the local economy. Yes the final profits go back overseas but the expense of putting these vehicles together is spent locally. There have been a lot of good paying jobs added to our State economy that we are glad to have. Personally I have no problem with this as the alternative would be to have these assembly plants overseas and no impact to the local (State) economy. These vehicles would still be sold locally but made elsewhere. I have had the opportunity to live in a foreign country for a couple of years, specifically Central America. I was amazed at the amount of US goods that were sold in the stores. Some companies have factories set up in Central America and some do not. Either way the profits come back to the US in some form or fashion. Of course the markets of Central America are just a speck of what the US market is but it opened my eyes to global trade. Either way global trade is here to stay and the smart Companies will adjust to profit from it. Personally, I try not to buy anything Made in China because I know from experience that the quality will be lacking. This may change in time and as they say, "Time will tell." On edit - OzDOzer, I think you hit the nail on the head.
G'day guys well it seems funny that this thread ended up here this was not at all where i was intending it to go. but anyways, i think the thing that gives china the worse name actually and i know iam going to cop hell for saying this but its the buyer not the manufacture if you want super high quality and QC you can trust well do the leg work and find a company that can do it not just some guy on the net who says they can and stop looking at the $$$$ and stop being so cheap frankly you get what you pay for we have a factory in china . hell we could build the cheapest wheel loader in the world if that is what we care to do but we do not want to have anything to do with that. so we buy the better parts and because we are not trying to save on cost we buy the best we can get that is why we run cummins and parker and a lot of other major brands. but that is up to us the manufacture. we have had buyers telling us from australia and now the US telling us they dont want expensive parts just give them the cheaper transmissions and things but we refuse to do that. so they move on to find another manufacture probly just down the street from me who will sell them that no problems and then it goes to australia or america and then people look at it and basicly freak because of the quality. as i said before its the buyer who is making the market possible for cheap crap on the market place. he only see's $$$$$ and he will move onto the next thing that has a few dollars in it rape that industry and keep on moving to where the money is too people like that they are not interested in repeat business just the one offs. Also this year in china you will see a lot of them poor quality brands have died off because they are not getting the orders so personally i think that this market down fall is great for this as it is getting rid of a lot of junk off the market place.
Yes, agreed, buyers who don't want to pay the extra dollars for quality is a big problem. However, the constant niggling fear with Chinese manufacture, is that one pays for quality - the first few items are good - then quality fade kicks in. This a problem that the Chinese have created themselves, and it's a curious, specifically Chinese problem. The Chinese quality fade problem is going to be with us for a long time to come, because they cannot prove that they can meet consistent, verifiable standards. We have the problem of corruption in China extending to forging of certification documents, involving aircraft parts and lifting components - let alone the reduction in quality of the materials used in the manufacture of those components. These are seriously major problems that the Chinese cannot seem to stamp out, and since they have been identified, it makes buyers very sceptical of the assertions of the Chinese that they can meet vital specifications and provide standards certification that is not false.
Well mate you are right that is why we opened our factory here we try for over 3 years dealing with wheel loader manufactures in china and it was just a constant battle so in the end we decided to do it ourself.
Does anyone know if P&H is getting links out of China? I had a customer ask that this morning. I wasn't sure.
None taken. What's offensive anyway? I'm right. You think you're right, but I didn't see any insults in there. If you've seen Chinese products with improved quality, then hooray for China. If something were obvious, then it would be obvious to everybody and you wouldn't have to say that it were obvious. The act of saying something is obvious doesn't make it so. You make no reasoning for the statement that quality is improving. I've had to return 5 out of 6 electronics purchases within the last year. The 5 defective items were made in China. All items were sold as "high quality" products (ex. Tomtom gps ). The Harpa music hall in Iceland had it's honey comb steel window/siding structure made in China. The Chinese manufacturer cut corners and sent a pile of scrap metal to be erected. When it was discovered that the structure was unfit, it was dismantled and the manufacturer made a new structure in accordance with the designs and specifications. In this instance, Chinese quality improved over the first attempt. This was in 2010/2011, btw.
Exactly! Quality fade is the very reason that many manufacturers are repatriating their production. The Chinese manufacturers bid on the production contract for a commodity. They bid low and then cut corners and shave off production cost little by little. In the end, the product rolling of the production line no longer resembles the product that they were contracted to make.
Fair enough, I don't want to be the village apologist for China. My logic is that China should follow the same path as Japan and Korea towards higher quality. Maybe they won't; maybe you're right. Maybe we're talking about different things.
Huntoon, your logic is not necessarily the logic of china when it comes to following the path of Japan or Korea. Contrary to your post above their castings and steel are junk, in many ways they are 27 years or better behind, they do cut corners and their attitude is pretty much so what. As a metallurgical engineer with 40 years experience, many trips to china to install and service industrial equipment, working with companies here in the US who have been hornswalged by chinese suppliers I know of what I speak. Many US companies have pulled production back to this country because of chinese quality issues. The City of Chicago has 640 new elevated train passanger cars sitting which they can't use due to defective chinese manufactured undercarriage parts. A major city has a bunch of decorative cast iron lamp posts they can't use because the post does not fit to the base. Another company sits with thousands of disc brakes which were modified by the chinese to reduce the weight of each piece by three ounces which they can't use. The list goes on and on
Can we please get this thread back on track and give up on this china thing i did not start this thread for it to be about china or anything all i wanted to see was what people's feeling where about machinery assmabled and things and where it is put together and what parts it uses and things as to determined where it was made. so please lets bring this back to the orginal question. see my question was trying to address things like Sany , Cat and others. See komatsu there made in Japan excavators well there engines are made in china and 90% of everything else event the bucket teeth so what iam thinking dose komatsu have the right to call them made in Japan? this was what i was getting at, Frankly speaking we have had enough discussions on china to last us a life time and they always seem to head down the same path them for and against and then the mods just ban the thread. and i dont want this happening.
So basicly you're saying that the made in China discussion has run its course and this thread is to discuss the criteria needed to avoid the "Made in PRC" badge? :beatsme
Chinese had firearms, money, and written language when most caucasions where still throwing rocks at each other. Has it occoured to the west that china keeps sending stuff we keep buying. Does anyone know how many big western manufacturers are using chinese components, chinese labour to make components, chinese companies they own to make components? China can do anything it wishs because, like our countries 50 years ago they dont need to get consent to have a meeting about the proposal to conduct a study into the impact of what they want to do.
Frankly,I don't worry about being politically correct,NOT running for office anytime soon.I call it the way I see it,without any spin.This ''made from global components'' nonsense mentality is just that--NONSENSE.It means made in CHINA--junk,inferior garbage.Having said that,I feel if at least 90% of the rig's parts aren't made in said country,using said country's labor, and being physically built in said country,said country shouldn't be able to say ''Made in said country.''
I thought my reply at the start of the thread was what you wanted. But you said that maybe I didn't get the meaning of your question. So maybe others didn't get the meaning of your question either. Your meanings are sometimes a bit hard to get.
Well Tuney443 he got it. what my meaning was basicly what makes it made in china or USA or aus .... basicly my meaning is to me anyways if i buy a american built CAT loader well then i would think that at least 90% of all the parts in the machine are made in america? but then i was thinking about other brands right. how can komatsu say there excavators are made in Japan if 80% of the parts or more are coming from out side of Japan? It would be like me i could actually clam the Australian made logo as i meet the requirements for 50% of the cost being paid in australia be to me i dont feel that is right. as the machine frames are done in china , engines from all over the world and same as most of the other parts frankly speaking . i dont think we should be able to label any machine made in any country unless 80-90% of all the parts are manufactured in that said country. All I wanted to know was basicly if you brought a Cat grader or other machine that had been assembled say in brazil but 80% of the parts where american would you call it american or brazilan?
In the Cat S/N or Product ID list of the S/No's and types of their machines, each S/N is listed with "Country of Origin" or "Source". Thus, Cat build a tractor in a certain country, and recognise worldwide that it's a product of that country - even though, sometimes that countrys input into the build components can probably be as low as 30% or 40% - depending on the manufacturing capabilities of the particular country. All the other components are imported, usually from the Cat factory in the country that has the best shipping rates - or whichever country has favoured tax status with the country where the machine is being built. The machine is then commonly ID'ed as being of that country of origin - but few people would know where all the components came from to build it. The workmanship of the people of the country building the machine has a big input into the build quality and often the reliability of the machine. Often a country has laws that state a certain % of local content has to be installed in the machine for it to be classed as a product of that country. These laws are often related to tax breaks. A lot of countries will encourage higher local input and give the manufacturer tax breaks on the few imported components, if they meet a certain % of local content. I don't think any manufacturer anywhere builds a machine or product in a particular country with as little as 20% local input. That doesn't make sense. Usually it's a minimum of 40%. As to Cat's manufacturing facilities in Australia - Waugh & Josephson started building Cat graders in Australia in 1936, after the U.S. Govt slapped an embargo on Cat graders going to the SE Asian region. A bunch of far-sighted Americans were concerned that a whole heap of new Cat graders could end up in the Japanese militarys hands, if the graders were sent to SE Asia in sizeable numbers, Australia needed graders, so W&J arranged with Cat to build them here (in the W&J factory in N.S.W.). The grader drivetrain was imported from the U.S. (engine and transmission) and the frame and all the smaller components were made by W&J to blueprints supplied by Cat. The result was called the Caterpillar Speed Patrol, to identify them as Australian Cats. The American Cat Grader was called the Auto Patrol. These graders were given separate engine and frame S/No's to ID them as Australian built Cat graders. The Australian content of the grader, taking assembly into account, as well as Australian parts manufacturing, probably saw the Australian content up around 60%. I'm sure Cat got import duty concessions on the engines and drivetrains imported for the Australian graders, because they were creating a great deal of employment here. These graders were recognised by Cat as genuine Cat graders, of Australian manufacture. They carried the same warranty and parts & service backup as any U.S.-built Cat of that era. In todays global manufacturing world, the manufacturers prefer that you ignore where the machine or item was built. "Country of Manufacture" no longer has the importance of meaning that it did, according to the manufacturers. However, most of us, as buyers, operators and repairers of machines, generally like to know where the machine we're buying/operating/fixing was built. It generally gives us some satisfaction if it comes from a country we know has a reputation for satisfactory build quality. Unfortunately, "Made in China" still has a ring to it that speaks of short cuts in QC, poor assembly, poor reliability, and a reduced resale value. It's up to China to take some massive steps to remedy the situation where they are known only for unsatisfactory or doubtful quality.
Thanks OzDozer for that answer and thanks for the info on the Cat graders made in oz never knew about that.
I had a thought, if we don't go by where they were assembled, how do we refer to these machines? In other words, if it is assembled in country A, with parts from countries, C, D, etc, and no clear majority supplier, what do we call it, mongrel built, or what?
A big part of globalization is branding. Today one would have to very naieve to think all parts of all Fords were all made in USA, but an F series will always be an American truck no matter were its made, branding!!??
A bit about quality fade; http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/08/china-product-quality-only-you-can-prevent-quality-fade.html Decent blog as well as it relates to sourcing stuff from China. Some of the older posts address the mind-set/different values as well. Alex.
Everything is made in China, cheap and expensive. Hell even half of our electronics are made there. All the major Japanese electronic companys sub to China. I can say that several companys have moved into the US from China and have put significant effort into producing a quality product that meets American standards. Companies like Sany and Liugong have spents billions over the last few yaers to get their products up to snuff and the difference between now and 3 years ago is staggering. Liugong hired Americans out of the field to ramp up their QC, people with decades working for Cat, Case, and Kobleco. They have employed ISO 9000 compliance and they have adopted Six Sigma in all their facilities. They are not trying to sell volume here in the states they are trying very hard to build to American stanards. They also have put a 3 year 4000 hour warranty on all of their product sold in the States. Sany never lacked the QC they just had to shift it to thier Construction equipment sector. Sany builds cranes that can lift 1600 tons and they go all over the world, believe me they watch every aspect of its construction all the way back to the raw materials and to exacting tolerances. They have also spent billions building new facilties here in the US. I wouldnt be suprised if these two companies grab up market share over the next 5 years.