We burn through cutting edges on a pretty regular basis, typically we have to order them directly from Weldco Beales in Canada. They are $1050 for a 60" x 10" on our excavator buckets. We are coming up on maintenance season again and was wondering if any of you fine gentleman have ever tackled the project of making your own? Not sure what they are made out of, but could get my hands on some AR 450 or 500 pretty easily. I think the square cut holes could be plasma cut fairly easy, counter sinking them would be challenging.. Anyone ever do this, have any insight?
What if you didn't countersink them? For that matter, what if you didn't make them square? Just used regular capscrews?
My only concern with that would be if the heads wore off rendering useless. I thought about welding the bolts in, but then when the time came to flip the edge around. I’d have to deal with with it.. I sure would like to see the process at the factory! I’m considering trying to gouge out a precise depth to counter sink a carriage bolt. But sounds messy and probably not as precise as id like. I guess maybe a mag drill 1st and then square cut?
Possibly could countersink regular bolts probably need an old industrial drill press something slower and stronger than a mag drill to turn carbide bit of that size Trying to freehand the cone for the head of a plow bolt and the square hole is just going to result in bolts coming loose and lost time Have you priced out other brands of blades blackcat for example I know Alaska is different but I can do 12' for that price
there are suppliers that custom make cutting edges as per your dimensions. they were always cheaper than the oem like beales because that's who beales gets them from and then they mark them up. the outfit i used to deal with has had a couple of name changes so i don't know what they are called now. they were in Edmonton
Thanks for the replies, I’m sure I could find it cheaper somewhere. Maybe Im a glutton for punishment, but id like to try to make it! I do have access to a Bridgeport mill where I could drill in the counter sunk portion. Any idea how the factory makes the holes? Do they do it before the steel goes through the hardening process? Also any idea what type of steel is used? Currently I need them for a 160 excavator and a 950 loader buckets
What about trying to drill/tap the edge for regular bolts. Have drilled/tapped old cutting edges before to make misc tools around the shop. Have always used a mag drill and these taps https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/64048028
IPD? Deere? Deere used to have a nice selection of stock edges to choose from, with or without bolt holes, YMMV. Any decent steel distributor can cut and bevel some Hardox or equivalent to suit, and should be able to pierce and cut the square holes you need. Might need that milling machine to properly cut the counterbores. The other option on the square holes would be to do a round hole with a carbide rotobroach then broach the square out. Don't need much, don't need anything really it's just to keep the head from spinning yeah? Five minute with a grinder make the square part of the bolt round. Sorry, my brain runs on auto a lot.
I like both these ideas! I talked to our local steel distributor and they quoted me for hardox AR 500, for a 64x96x1” sheet was $3600. Everything was sold by the lb. or they could cut out what ever I wanted for $100/hr and they would keep the expensive left over. So, my dreams of plasma cutting the sheet ended, as that is too hard to beat. Additionally I’d have scrap I couldn’t use. They said they could cut the holes in as well if I had a template. I didn’t inqure further as I don’t want to have it all completed for me! Even if it is cost effective, haha, got to learn somehow. I was thinking today about what 1466 said, if I milled a round hole down enough to protect most of the bolt head from being sheared I could just use a hex bolt and nut. Then drill the appropriote diameter shank size through the hardox. I will look into this “rotobroach” and through that MSC website, I will need to buy my own tooling to use for this project. Thanks for insight so far! How is drilling AR500? Sounds terrible
The generic name for Rotobroach is Annular cutter. Cross between hole saw and end mill. I think carbide will do the job, but I have not tried it myself.
Problem with AR is it does not shear readily, snaps or fractures, can be hell on any type of bits.
I have done a few cutting edges from QT400. Just did one last year for my 910 loader . We drilled it for 3/4 plow bolts then counterbored for the heads with another drill ground to suit. the square holes were done by torch using a little jig lined up over the hole to run square. It looked like the real thing and stays tight. It was a 3piece edge long center section and 2 side edges ,i beveled both sides so it can be flipped around for wear, beveled the long section with my track cutter and torch then the 2 side edges on the milling machine as an effort to keep the heat out of the bevels. I have done them for 1" bolts by drilling then counterboring the for the heads with a fly cutter that was piloted in the bolt hole. At that time we had a square broach made up which could be pressed thru ,making the square. I still have the broach stashed away ,ill try and post pics on the weekend when i get back to the shop. All this said if you have a decent drill press ,experiment with grinding a drill bit ,run it nice n slow with cutting oil .I dont think a roto broach has the cutting surface area to stand the pressures of drilling that stuff. Im sure theres better advice on here as to actually grinding a drill bit for this material,for me i can get it done but grinding each drill bit is a science project some work well some dont.
the best replaceable cutting edges are through- hardened and they are harder to drill compared to others that aren't. if you are accurate with oxy-acetylene, holes and bevelling can be done but under high-impact use the edge may crack and break through a hole because of the disruption in the HAZ( heat affected zone) around the holes. as far as i know, the better edges are hardened after the holes are made
You could try a farmer fix,weld some ar to the bottom of the bolt on lip. When done cut off and repeat.
Hey, hey there! Ok maybe that would be a farmer fix. But only if you weld an old plow share to it.
With your lincoln 225 AC buzz box and some fuzzy 6011
Nothing personal
In the vernacular - "anything's possible, but is it practical?." Try costing out all the materials and tools you would need to buy (especially for making the holes if you don't have them already). Add to that the purchase of the required steel, then add all the manhours of labour to manufacture a cutting edge at whatever is your internal labour cost. On the basis of crunching the number does it make sense to try to make your own edges or is it better to have your employees doing what are possibly more productive maintenance tasks and simply buy in your GET..? That does not imply you should buy from where you've always bought, there may be deals from other suppliers, and shopping around is part of the game. MHO - YMMV.
at one place i worked at, the practice was to weld half-arrow edges on clean-out buckets. i decided that was a waste of my time when i could be doing more important things so i converted any of those buckets to bolt-on reversible edges and then the operators could do it themselves
I agree Nige, I'm a firm believer in letting professionals do their trade. A lot less headache for sure. I would like to learn this stuff is the only thing. Even if its a "what not to do" for future use. I may just try one smaller one to get the feel. If its not enjoyable whatsoever, I'll stick to buying them complete. At any rate, going through a steel manufacture is going to be cheaper than buying from the bucket manufacture, so that is good news already!
Some times you just got to give a lash at things yourself even if they may be a bit mad (not saying this idea is)(more my own). Good for the soul
Exactly! Most major advances are made by us misfits, one way or another, lol!
I recently purchased a Hypertherm 65 Plasma cutter, which really spurred this whole "cutting edge" thing on. It's opened up so many new possibilities! Truly an amazing tool. Yesterday I was practicing with the gouging tip removing the welds from a dented panel. So much funner than grinding everything! The more I look at detailed schematics of things the more I realize how 2 dimensional stuff starts out as, then welding together to make something useful, the possibilities are really endless.
One of the edges I was going to "make" was flippable for another season. I did give hardfacing the lip with stick a go. The flat welding turned out okay. After that I gave going up the sides a try, I was able to make the 7018 rod behave okay, but when switching to the stoody 31 rod I could not make it go uphill,downhill, drag, push, anything! It all kind of boogered up, is this just the nature of the type of rod? what can I try to make it look a little more presentable? Here's a video of the flat work
I've never been able to run hard face out of position and make it look good. When doing sides of something I've either accepted that it will look like crap or I took the subject off the machine and turned it so that I was welding flat.
I Hardface with wire its a challenge to to the sides its easier to cheat and put on a piece of ar or the little wear blocks if you do have to buy hardface supplies talk with your professional welding store about your application as there are so many different types time and money to be lost using the wrong product I didn't catch what size rod you had but the spec sheet shows only flat over 1/8 inch https://mam.esab.com/assets/1/BDBA5...E71D60CC5/V410011-en_US-FactSheet_Main-01.pdf I like your tire sipes also
Years ago I ran some rod that was acceptable for downhand passes, but then I was running a Miller Big 40 at the time. I sincerely regret ever selling that big mother, smoothest DC stick machine I've ever run. Customer told me later my hardface lasted longer than the previous guys, I just wish I remembered what brand and number that rod was!
Vertical surface hardfacing - chocky bars or buttons. Works every time. http://www.hensleyind.com/hensley-bimetallic-wear-products/
Plasma a hole big enough that head of a normal cap screw fits in it and weld it up thats how someone around here threads ar500
Excellent, glad to hear it wasn't just my poor welding skils! Yes, typically I'll take these old edges and use them as wear bars. just all out of edges currently! The rod was 3/16's I found a Stoody amperage chart but id didn't say anything about flat/horz. That is good to know! Tire siper was awesome, I'll make a seperate post on that sometime, waiting to get a comparison on ice with the newley treaded tires. On our 966c Loader it has some hardfacing thats lasted the test of time. The beads on it must be 3/4" x 1/2" thick! I'm not sure what they put it down with but must have been a monster welder.
do any of you guys make these cut-outs? We've put them in a couple of our loaders and absolutely love it. Makes so much more visibility, also helps accuracy when loading half buckets
I like the picnic bench 2. Getting sick of perching on rams an bosses
Looks handy for cleaning the windshield.
I started the bucket/cutting edge project, 1st up was to swap the couplers. Or rather put the pin grabber style on the larger bucket. I have a Hypertherm 85 plasma and it wasn't to happy about cutting the lower portion on the coupler on the left. It was 2" thick! I had to come at it from both sides. Finally got them both off and started prep for re-attaching. The pin grabber of course wouldnt fit between the old coupler and 1/4" had to come out of both sides. The gouging tip was quite fun to work with, much funner then a grinder, its amazing how intricate you can get with them, each swipe is like removing a layer of steel with a paint brush. I didnt remove these ears as they attach to the core of the bucket and will be the main anchor for new coupler
I finally got the new one mounted on there and welded up. Its amazing how long this stuff takes!
JH Beales. Before Weldco Beals Manufacturing was established? Not sure, but its a old one. Well built and about to be put back in service
I cut the sides down in order to grab trees a little better. The tooth bucket is better for this, but sometimes it happens. Tomorrow we will be drilling holes to attach a removable cutting edge
The WBM edge we took off another bucked to use as a template had a massive crack throughout. not sure how somthing like this would happed? its on a little 120 excavator.
What’s the steel on the end of the edge for ? Is the main edge flat or rounded from wear?
The edges always wear out so fast, I put these extra wear plates on, now I can get another season out of the same edge
Today I "learned" alot! haha. I had big plans of ordering some annular cutters and broaches and all sorts of stuff. Then all of a sudden its project time. So I have a set of dewalt cobalt bits up to 1/2" and a chinese set up to 1". There sure is something to be said about quality products. My question is, what is the recomended drill bit step size? We were doing 9/16 to 1/2 to 13/16 to 1" The 1" bit was completly shot and we only managed to get one complete hole drilled all day! We got everything pre-drilled to 1/2 and 13/16" but by the end of the day the bits were ground to nubs. Which brings me to the second thing I learned about, Drillbit sharpening. There is alot that goes into that, have alot to learn there. Sometimes I could get a really good on and it would eat it up like butter, but could rarely duplicate it. Lots to learn! I'm planning on going to town next week to get some proper bits
i usually only make the pilot hole the same diameter as the flat across the point of the drill bit otherwise you can burn off the outside edges of the bit in short order. ie- approx. a 3/16 pilot hole for a 1" bit. the small pilot hole allows for a slower, more controlled cut with the large bit and i use lots of ' RELTON RAPID TAP' or similar
Excellent, good info, that was the main problem was the outer edges kept chipping off. Ill look into that oil, I was just using generic 10w30 oil to keep the bit cool. Does the type of oil make a difference?
That Rapid Tap stuff is for real. I use it for drilling and tapping all the time. It makes it so the cutting edge of the bit or tap bites and also keeps in cool so it doesn't burn the cutting edge up.
I used to hang out with an old machinist, now deceased, he would say the reason drill bits and cutters are sharp till the center. He always used a small pilot hole also. When sharpening drill bits get a really fine stone on a small bench grinder works the best. And keep it cool.
tap magic is another good brand
ok, good to know, I’ll pick some of that stuff up. My friend brought a Evolution mag drill over with a annular bit. unfortunately, he didn’t have the correct size. But it was an impressive tool. I plan on going into town next week and ill pick up a 1” drill bit and hopefully a 1” annular cutter bit with a normal drill shank, if theres such a thing. And some quality cutting oil.
look at the spiral reamer line. they work much better than a drill bit but don`t forget the cutting oil. I think these are called carr. reamers
There are lubricants and there are coolants. Oil is a good lubricant but a poor coolant. Water is an excellent coolant and a lousy lubricant. Drilling really wants coolant with a touch of lubricant. Tapping wants lubricant with a touch of coolant. Real life is a compromise. Water with a dose of washing soda makes a good coolant. The washing soda retards rusting. As for pilot holes, I agree with those who say the pilot diameter should be about the width of the chisel point of the next drill. Slightly smaller is better than slightly larger. If you are burning the outside corners of your drill bit, you are turning it to fast. 1" bit on a cutting edge I would start 150 to 200 rpm. Annular cutters are good, but how are you going to resharpen them? They allow you to put oversize holes in with undersize equipment, but are somewhat fragile. As for sharpening drills, a good sharpening guide is indispensable. It helps you insure both flutes are the same angle and same length. So you say "I sharpen them all by eye". Thats like saying I will level this 1 acre building pad by eye, don't need a story pole. An expert may be able to come close, but a beginner will turn out a hopeless CF.
If you weld 2 standard nuts together side by side , flat to flat you get 120 degree angle between them . Correct angle used to be 118 from what I was taught . Close enough.
Each side on a regular drill bit is supposed to be 59.5 degrees.
I put 20 3/4” holes in a bunch of 1” steel plates last week with an annular cutter ( drill press adapter used). I was done in a couple of hours. Spent more time moving pieces and chamfering the holes than the actual drilling. Had the press set to 280 rpm. Annular cutters are the way to go and I will purchase more sizes as I need them. Cam
Good quality large bits are expensive so i try to use them carefully and resharpen regularly to avoid unnecessary burning
well after a 4hr drive, i returned without a cutting edge as the steel suppliers plasma cutter broke down. disappointing to say the least. But! i did get a cutter for 68$ and a 1” bit for 109$ as well as a small burring tool. I burred out the holes that were 15/16 and then reamed them. lots of metal splinters with that little devil. I tried the drill bit and chipped the edge while coming through the bottom. very disappointed with that! I then went to the cutter, and that is one fine piece of machinery. I got some cutting and tap oil, it seems very sticky, I was amazed at how much it helped. I drilled 8 holes, no problem. Very happy with round 1. not sure what hardness of steel it is, but will surely help with experience for cutting the 450. thanks for the help and advice. Will hopefully pick up edge after the holidays
the only potential problem i see is that it may be hard to keep the bolts tight because the bottom of the surface is worn and may not allow the new edge to seat flatly. if its a problem you could add a few weld beads toward the front of the mounting surface which would help to support the new edge
Or weld on o strip of flat to fill the gap between the two edges
I was thinking that I'll cut the buckets edge, back and inch or so, to get out of the inverted taper. Then come back in and cut the buckets leading edge at a 45* or so and the correct taper. Like you say, Adding a few beads between the two would be helpful so I wouldn't have to cut so much back. Once I get it squared away I plan on applying hard facing to the leading bucket edge
..well, I got the edge! That AR450 is no joke. It laughed at the annular cutter, rubbed its little edges to nubs. I ended up using it as a marking tool and blowing a hole through with plasma. I then tried to round out the holes a little better with cutter...that didnt work. I got the holes through, just need to spend some time with the burring tool to get them precise. I kept thinking about what Nige said.. “is it practical though?” haha, I am still enjoying this, but I believe I may buy my next one!
At least you had fun and you do nice work. Was you cutter carbide or HSS even the carbide ones dont hold out long on ar450 I wouldnt be surprised to see it broke in half along that row of heat affected zone
I’ve had similar results trying to drill a base edge to accept a bolt on. All it did was wreck the bits. Torch works okay and you need to cut the countersunk portion for the bolt head anyway.
Any time you're working with cutting edge material you need at least carbide cutters, with constant coolant flow, the annular cutters *MUST* have flow through the center to cool the inner tiny cutting points and flow the chips outward for clearing. I use TRIM E206 mixed ten to one with water and let it flow when cutting T1 or Weldox. One dry spot or any time the cutter chatters or sticks for a second, probably time to send it for sharpening. Life with good steel.
Kind of delayed this project for awhile. been having trouble with my eyes. One eye in particular is just not happy with bright lights. Thought it was a flash burn at first, but has been going on for a couple months now. Eye doc said everything looked fine and gave me some drops.... This getting old is not for the young! Had one of my guys countersink the holes. turned out well enough. Another mile of hardfacing on the bucket and she’ll be ready to hit the dirt
Well, got it finished up for now, enough to kick out the door anyway, its been in here for 3 months or so! Next year I’d like to add some hard facing on the side. But it will be fine for the 1000ish hrs it will get this season. With steel prices going through the roof, i’m glad I got the experience, but definitely appreciate buying a finished product