Greetings everyone. I have about 300 acres of pretty hilly terrain, covered with small-diameter trees and brush. I want to make ATV trails throughout the property. I've done a little with a CAT D4 but it makes a mess. Would you recommend a smaller dozer or a compact track loader? Thank you.
Go to www.sutterequipment.com and you will find the finest purpose built trail building machine ever made. It is made in Moundhouse, Nevada, a suburb of Carson City. Our Dirt bike club has one and it is one hell of a machine. Read the specs and watch all of the videos that you can find, not just the Sutter videos. It builds 48 inch wide tails in all sorts of terrain. It is powerful and heavy enough to do the job. Jim
Can your hills be climbed or do you need to cut them down? a skidsteer with mulcher will take care of your trees or maybe theres a lot of rock that needs to be dealt with That trail dozer looks pretty neat maybe can rent one?
A D4 should be a good piece of equipment for this job...exactly what type of issues are you having again? That size dozer is VERY popular with the loggers around here to build pioneer roads and skid out logs. Building roads with a dozer is NEVER a low environmental impact task. Clearing trail with chainsaw, pick, shovel and mattock can be excellent exercise and I have been maintaining all my trails by hand for the last 8 years, and now finally getting a JD 450 loader with hoe. Installing culverts by hand is getting old. Howard
Jim, Jonas and hetkind, Thank you for your advice. Jim, I've seen the Sutter and do think it's a great machine. However, it is pretty expensive and I haven't been able to find a used one in my vicinity. Jonas, the land is very hilly, however I don't think there would be lots of rock I'd have to move. I've thought of a compact track loader which would be very beneficial in many other ways, namely cleaning up the brush and small trees I'd be pushing. A mulcher head is pretty expensive. I was thinking of a bucket with a thumb and a chipper. hetkind, yes, a D4 would be great. I used a D4 to clear already. The only drawback is the mess it leaves behind as well as the excessive width of the trails. I was also thinking of a JD 450J. I've cleared with that, as well, and it's very nimble. I think I might rent a compact track loader with a 6-way-blade and something with which I can pick up and move the piles of brush and small trees. Now, the question is, which brand? I've read good things about the Takeuchi... Hmm...
How about a mini excavator? You could get the narrow width and it could do everything you need as long as there's no big rocks to move.
Delmer, I've thought a lot about that, too. However, with 340 acres, I might be dead before I could finish the amount of trails I require. Everyone to whom I've spoken about a mini-excavator has said it's real slow going... Thanks for your advice, though!
Why not just toss a brush mower on the front of the CTL? Mow your trails then use them. I have flat ground here and use a small tractor and 5' 3pt mower for ATV and dirt bike trails. I haven't had a flat tire on a quad yet but I run my blades on the dull side so it smashes the brush rather than slicing it off sharp like a spear. Do you need to clean these trails to the bare dirt? My experience is that they will stay clean if used or regrow quickly is left unused.
Can you attach a photo of a typical section?
Former Wrench, I hadn't seen your reply yet, and had come here to attach a photo. What a coincidence. Twisted, have a look at the photo. I won't be doing mowing. I need to make trails through 15 foot high manzanita, other brush and oaks of 4"-6" diameter and 30' in height. Very little of my land is flat. Most of it is slopes of 15-25 degrees. I need to be able to make trails for my ATV to at least get around on the property. This means cutting into the hillside to make a bench. Maybe I need a dozer AND a CTL with a bucket with a thumb to clean up after the dozer...
Well if you weren't so far away..... I have an older 55hp tractor and anything I can run over, I mow. Those look a little on the big side for my little tractor. I still say push off what you can't mow and just let to rot. It happens faster than you would imagine. Move as little dirt as possible to keep the spoils to a minimum. Leave the little saplings for a mower. That's how I've done trails in bigger timber and it works well. The piles look big at first but if they aren't in the way, let them rot down. It'll look better than you can imagine in two or less years.
Or in my case, a track loader with a 4 in 1 bucket. And I suspect being in California, you are under a burn ban, and bringing in a chipper is expensive. I maintain about 3 miles of roads and trails adjacent to the Cherokee National Forest. One day of hand clearing of underbrush and downfall requires a second day just to burn. I feel your pain. The real issue is not clearing trail, it is dealing with the brush that has been generated. Howard
Twisted, where I live, things take a very long time to rot. It's mostly dry here. Someone cleared some of this land about 10 years ago and the stuff is still there, not rotten, just dry. hetkind, we only have burn bans during the dry summer and when the air is stagnant. I COULD burn all this brush but I'd like to buy a quality chipper, like the tree companies have, chip it all and use it to cover the trails. However, I will be burning some of it.
I think a brush rake might be a good investment.
I agree. First I gotta find something to which I can attach it!
A quality chipper is very high in cost. Let me tell you what I would do in this situation or what I have done before on larger jobs. I would RENT a small dozer like a JD 450 you were using earlier, cut your trails, and make interim brush piles. Now bring in a bowl grinder with self loader, that is trailer mounted and either haul your brush to a central location for grinding OR move the bowl grinder from massive pile to massive pile. The larger the piles, the cheaper the grinding, but the more moving cost. This is going to need some planning on your roads. Keep the dozer handy for when the chipper needs help! And the chips are saleable to your local mulch maker... Howard
Howard, I searched Google and could not find a bowl grinder. What's that? I'm going to be making trails on this 300 acres for a very, very long time. I think buying a JD 450 would be more cost-effective than renting. The company that used to rent JD 450s doesn't rent them any more. The best I can do is a Cat D4K2 at $2300 or so for a week, not including fuel. I like the idea of a portable grinder. Maybe a Vermeer BC600XL. Jim
Tub grinder... http://www.morbark.com/equipment/1100-tub-grinder/ And there are no cheap crawlers...I will probably have 25k into my 450b with 4 in 1 bucket and 9300 hoe, but that includes a new undercarriage and steering clutches. Howard
Thanks, Howard. Had never heard of such a thing. Probably because they cost a quarter of a million dollars! I'm going to have to stick with a Vermeer BC600XL. True. No cheap crawlers, either. But, a used JD 450J would probably hold its value well, if I ever DID run out of things to do with it! Jim
Bringing a grinder in with a crew is more reasonable...
Thanks, Howard. This is going to be a many-year project. I'm happy to use a little Vermeer BC600XL... I appreciate all your advice, though! Jim
That size chipper would be great on small brush...best of luck on the project. Howard
My place is steeper than yours. Around here, people sometimes build road with excavators, using the thumb to manage trees and bury them on the fill side of the road. Then they smooth it with a dozer. Your property is less steep and you're not building wide enough roads to cover the brush so it probably wouldn't work as well. One thing to remember if you're thinking the D4 is too large, when you build a 9 foot wide road on steep terrain, it will be 7 foot wide 3 years later. Some roads built on my place with a Case 450 dozer a decade ago are ATV trails now.
Another thought, a Bandit Forestry Mower. Use it to build your ROW, then the dozer to dress things up.
Yair . . . I'm confused. There are several different issues here and I don't quite understand the purpose of the project. By "ATV" I assume the poster is referring to what we call a "four wheeler" essentially a four wheel motorbike . . . but the type is morphing into the little jigger that seats the passengers side by side. They mostly seem to be about four feet wide which probably means that for poking around slow a six foot wide track would be sufficient . . . it would have to be much wider to traverse (safely) at any speed. The two main issues are of course dealing with the timber and moving dirt. To put a level six foot cut across the face of (say) a forty five degree slope means moving a lot of dirt and if it has to be done through virgin bush or decent regrowth it is never going to be pretty. . . any plan to move timber around for a chipper would be impractical although on the more level sections a forestry mulcher may work but I shudder at the cost. The standard method is a dozer with an angle blade and work downhill if you can. I normally try to push the trees as I go and, (as mentioned by check ) where possible, leave them on the bottom side of the ROW where they can be partially covered and help to hold the side cast spill . . . it is pretty much a waste of time to build such a track on fill, you need the full six foot wide track to be on cut plus a bit of slope back on the top face and a decent drain along the toe. It all depends on the purpose of the project but these type of tracks have to be constructed with proper drainage if expected to last. Maintenance will be a never ending job and the O/P's mention of a largish CTL with an angle blade attachment seems to me to be a possible solution . . . adequate for construction and I imagine more convenient to maintenance grade with one of those rather than clattering around on a steel track dozer. Cheers.
25 degree slope is really not that much for an ATV. My driveway has sections of 16 degree slope and I drive it with my truck in the winter with snow on the ground. Much of my property has 60 degree slopes. On a 25 degree slope ATV trail, you can drive straight up to the peaks without side-hilling or switchbacks. That said, removing vegetation is sufficient for building ATV trails without ever moving any dirt. Of course, straight up and down a slope sure limits where you could put a trail.
I can typically cut 0.5 - 1+ miles of 8'-10' wide trail per day by choosing a path of least resistance and trying to stay with 6 inch and smaller trees when possible. I can side slope 30 degrees easy enough and vertically run 40+ degrees with ease as long as there is traction. I also have a tracked dumper with a custom spreader for high end trails that need perfection. Mulching is the only way to go for minimal disturbance and maximum production. Trees, grass, rocks, stumps, dead bodies....I eat EVERYTHING in my path unless it is steel. I typically use the FTX 140 for steep jobs and small trails. If the ground is nearly flat, maximum production happens with the barko. I used to contract for high end trail construction but these days, I stick with just mulching unless the right contract comes along. The tracked dumper is up for sale. I will find and post some pics of past work when I get onto the laptop. Meanwhile, you can see what I run at Treemuncher.com Look at the pictures under the Jobsite Pics page for fence line clearing for a good idea on basic mulched trail construction.
We were up on our property last weekend with a thin layer of snow. We are able to identify several abandoned logging roads that we plan to reopen, two of these lead into 100 year old forest National Forest. Like tree muncher, we would like these to be useful for both an ATV and a M37 Military Power Wagon. We might do some selective harvest and open the canopy up for some new growth from the understory. Howard
A couple of roughed in trail pics. Typical clearing of trails runs $0.15 - $0.75+ per linear foot depending on the conditions, species, size, etc. If you are not in this business of mulching already, hire it out to have it done. It will save you a lot of money, hair and frustration. Possibly medical bills, too. I've been at this nearly 20 years and I well know the costs and frustrations of running this equipment. If you try to do this work with a skid steer machine, you are throwing money away unless all of your material is under 3" diameter. Productivity is the name of the game and keeping costs low.
Hi Y'All, I've decided to get either a skid steer or a compact track loader. I need the versatility and based on what I saw my friend do with his Bobcat, I think a skid steer will do the trick for me. The question is, which brand should I choose? One thing I remember a CAT person telling me is this: Listen to the Bobcat. When it's time to go to work the thing goes to full throttle and stays that way all the time. CAT is not like that. A CAT doesn't need to be run at full throttle. Has anyone heard of that? Also, I just looked at the John Deere site and it seems that high-flow hydraulics are not even an option for a new JD 316GR. Anyone have any idea about that? So, Deere, CAT, Kubota, Takeuchi, Bobcat? Any opinions? Thanks, y'all. Jim
CAT or Komatsu are the best I've run, tracked machines are the only way to go also, rubber tired skid steers are obsolete. Both companies offer high flow hydraulics I believe, so a heavy duty brush cutter can be ran on them.
That is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. I have a tracked skid steer and there is plenty of times I wished I had a wheeled skid steer as well. They both have their place.
Well, I'm going to get a Kubota tractor. So there! I'll rent a CAT D4 to make the initial trails and use the Kubota to maintain them. I can also mow, use a trencher and a grapple bucket on the Kubota. Oh, and a post hole digger. So there!
I disagree on the statement SSL's are obsolete. There are many, many tasks that a SSL is a better choice than a CTL. What most first time buyers of CTL's don't realize is the cost associated with the undercarriage. When CTL's are put into a regular environment where a SSL would be cheaper, the costs materialize. The cost is more upfront for a CTL and the UC is more expensive to operate. Now a CTL will go places and do things a SSL will not without OTR's and that is where they shine. An asphalt contractor I work around recently purchased a 299 CTL with planer. They had it on a job we were working on and the tracks were wore at least 60% with less than 200 hours on the clock. I questioned the rational in my mind of why they would put a track machine in that situation when a SSL would have better fit the bill from the wear on the tracks. At $1500 a piece for tracks, that's going to be an expensive machine per hour to operate.:cool2
I have had quite a few SSL's and now have a CTL, there are many times I wish I had the wheels. The CTL does more of the work that I do which is why I have one I used to plow a lot of snow with the SSL, sure wouldn't with the CTL . I tried last winter, and if you can remove all the snow so you are on pavement the tracks are fine. Just about worthless on packed snow or ice. Everything has it's place!
I have done exactly what you are doing. I have a wheeled skid, a tracked skid, and a 953. Rent a 953 forget the dozer. I have used all 3 to make trails and clear property lines. I cleared almost 2 miles with my 953 and 12 acres for food plots.. It did it real quick. I would think a 1 to 2 week rental would about take care of your trails. Make long pushes to piles which you can burn later clear around them to so you can lite them off when they dry. Keep your pies about 500' apart or so. In some cases I went 1000' between piles, break the trail then push debris toward your piles. If possible put your piles down hill it will go 4 times as fast.
A little kubota tractor will be great for maintaining trails. I helped the farm next door put up a few thousand feet of fenceline, he drove the wanted fenceline path with his compact deere tractor and I followed with the JD350, removing any pesky trees and scooting them off to the side, using the tracks and blade to mulch up the small brush. He skidded the small trees out with the little tractor and then we piled them up into a huge burn pile with the dozer.
I now have my newest machine up and running. I was thinking about this thread while I was building some trails throughout my neighbor's property. I cut in over 2,000 linear foot of trail at 8'+ width in less than 90 minutes, including numerous stumps @ 30"+ diameters, trees up to 12"+, leftover logging slash and less than level terrain. I left most of it in "rototilled" condition and ready for seeding as I erased my tracks on the finish passes. You could never convince me to build trails any other way. Faster, cleaner and healthier for the save trees. Cracking the bark and subsurfacing to the root zone, as always happens with a dozer blade, is the worst thing you can do to the save trees The white patch on the upper left side of the trail was a 20" diameter sandstone rock until I hit it with the mulcher. Now, it is a pile of white/yellow sand.
Where are the pictures with your new machine in it? We patiently(?) wait to see them
I'm still having some issues with the new machine. I posted a thread on the following link: HeavyEquipmentForums When I get out and cut some more, once the issues are fixed, I will try to post up some new pics. I need to get a bunch of pics of this machine for my marketing. Dis-assembly pics don't bring in the contracts! Here I was sizing up the machine on the truck that I custom built for it.
The power company had a machine like yours, but BIGGER..this thing ate anything in its way and left small chips behind it, im sure it cost several hundred thousand to buy...I cut lots of trails through the woods with my d58 and dressed them with a 75 horse new holland tractor with a box blade....this year I picked up a john deere 355d track loader with a 4 way blade and once the woods dry out enough ill see what trails can be made with that...the trails I made with the d58 were 10 ft wide, as that was the blade size, and as the years go the trails get smaller in width, I would go at least 6 or 8 ft wide the first time through..
When I seen he tail of the truck then it all came back to me. The cool custom bed.
I've been out working a few steep jobs lately. Here are some pics of the new-to-me machine doing its thing. I still need to take some trail pictures. Above: finish quality work Below: rough in on same job above Another overlook in the same subdivision but a wee bit steeper.
That's some steep **** wow
Isn't clearing all the vegitation off slopes that steep going to lead to massive erosion when it rains hard? Graham
I think it's just knocking it down. That's usually why you would use a muclher rather than up root it. It should grow back without soil disturbance
That there is the drunk trap from hell! Ed
Absolutely NOT. The stumps remain in the ground and the mulch is cast directly on the ground. The root base of any grasses remain and they pop back up within days and lock the mulch in place. The mulch helps retain moisture for the grasses and locks them in tighter than before. It is nothing more than a win-win situation. I am currently working on my 20th year of mulching services. I've worked flatter and steeper jobs than these pictured and never had erosion issues from my work. And regarding the rains, I worked that job below the log house while it was raining that day. I only slid one time after we got close to 1/2" of rain that day.
I finally picked up one of the Sutter 480 dozer in Mound House Nevada. They had a used 2009 that they took in on a trade and went through it and fixed everything that needed fixing. I've been wanting one for over 20 years. The stars finally lined up where I could get one. Picked up Thursday.