Hi guys I am new here. I am investigating an accident where a mechanic was injured. It occurred a few years ago in Ontario. A mechanic got his arm wrapped around the winch when installing the cable on the winch after he reinstalled it following repair. The engine was started by someone assisting him at the mechanic's instruction. The mechanic was standing on the back of the machine at the winch, installing the cable. He had a loop of cable in the winch and somehow his arm was in the loop. The winch had a safety bar across the top. The engine was supposed to be just started to put it into free spool so it could be rotated to a good angle to get the cable in. The cable restraint bar was in the way. (I believe its a modification). I was told that the winch can drag around about a half turn when started. Is this true? I suspect this occurred because he still has his arm. Do you know of some safe work procedures for re-cabling a winch (especially if two people are doing it)? I know it can be done by one person with no one in the cab. Is that the best way? This appears to be an unsafe work procedure? Thank you very much!
Why would you be investigating an accident that happened years ago? Is the photo you attached to the thread part of that accident or just an illustration? The procedure for installing cable on a winch is covered in the manufacturer's operation and maintenance manual. Perhaps you should start reading that before asking open ended possibly legal questions on an open forum.
I take it your fact finding for a lawsuite or insurance settlement?
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You are correct. There is a suit and insurance is involved. I am researching this. I have read the operation and maintenance manuals but the procedure for installing the cable is not detailed in regard to one or two people doing the work. It shows three methods to attach the cable to the drum. Yes, the shot of installing the cable is a re-enactment on the involved machine. I am trying to determine the standard of care and verify a detail such as the winch possibly turning slightly when the engine is started.
Well I have seen in my experience with winches that many hydraulic ones will turn on their own once the pump is engaged but generally this will only happen if there is no load of any kind on the drum. I am not familiar with the specifics of this drum but I wouldn't think that it would suck an arm in to it if it was not engaged.
How did the mechanic turn out, hopefully allright. I suppose if that's the machine, one way to find out if it turns when the engine is started is to try it. Is it a gear or hydraulic drive? Do any of the linkages or mechanisms bind up a bit? You mention the angle of the machine was to be changed, if its hydraulic and cold, it could be possible that pressure bled back through the winch while articulating the machine. I have seen hydraulic operations move and such when a machine is first started at times when there is some air in the system usually.
I smell a rat here. The dealership and manufacturer should be able to provide you with the info you need.....unless it's them you are trying to screw into paying for somebody's stupidity. I wouldn't even put a lawyer's hand near a winchline on startup.
The mechanic's arm was broken with tendon damage. If the winch was powered on I suspect he may not have an arm. He wanted the engine started so the rotational angle of the winch could be changed. I guess that the winch restraint bar was in the way to allow the cable to be jammed in easily. I have not seen the machine and it has been used for a few years since this incident. The machine was not being articulated at the time. Then engine was started, that is all. There was no load on the drum since the cable was slack and being installed. I have been told that it might creep around a bit at start up. I suspect this may produce enough torque to brake one's arm? The winch is mechanically driven with hydraulic actuation of the clutch and brake. It also has a clutch warm up valve but I am not sure how it works. Since the clutch had been repaired and was being installed, the oil was not hot. The clutch was not bled before the incident.
I am trying to determine what happens in the field from experienced mechanics. What is the best practice here? This type of information does not come from a manual. I was a safety engineer for WCB of BC for 11 years and have investigated many injuries and deaths. I know about safety and regulations and lock-out too. I am a consultant now. I am trying to find out what is done in the field as usual practice and compare that to what was done in this instance. So, I am asking the experts.
Speaking only for myself........... 1. I would not have been standing behine the machine or close to the winch drum or would have my arms and hands in harms way when the unit was being started. You never know what safety systems have been bypassed allowing the machine to start while in gear allowing the machine to back over you. 2. If the cable was that twisted and kinked I would have cut the end off rather then fight trying to secure the end to the drum.
Personally I believe he wasn't much of a mechanic if he had his arm through the loop. He is responible for his own actions.
exactly putting the line on a skidder is a pretty easy one man job I ran skidders for a couple of years and never needed a hand to put a winch rope on
The fact that you didn't identify yourself or your aims in the first post indicates towards some deception as to your aims. I would have to assume you are being paid by someone to establish grounds for a lawsuit against a manufacturer or dealer. If you are being paid I would suggest you do the job you are being paid for somewhere else. To those contemplating an answer to this thread I would only say, choose your words carefully. You may have to restate them in front of a judge without getting paid for your time and knowledge.
The cables I have installed have a type of lock on the drum.Lock it to the drum then tie off to a tree etc.Then spool the cable up while holding brakes or with blade down.Do it by my self lots of times.I don't trust some of these so called operators with my life.
I don't ever remember the restraint bar being OEM, that looks like an add-on by someone else. It might be possible that it would turn if there was air in the system.Most cable is held by a wedge, you push the cable through the hole and then loop it back through the same hole insert the wedge into the loop after the slack is pulled enough to hold the wedge so as not to fall out as you keep pulling on the cable. That being a grapple was the cable still hooked to the grapple? If so the starting of the machine could have caused the machine to jump as most do when started,this would be from the hydraulics pressure building up. The accumulators in the steering will jump especially if the steering wheel is turned when starting. There are 1000 things that could have happened, these are things that have happened to me on machines. This may or may not help you,"This is only my opinion just speculation because I wasn't there when it happened" mailtrain
I really think someone is just blowing hot air. No one in their right mind would try and build a court case around anything said in a internet forum and thats why I have no problems stating my openion...... plus this happened in Canada so I doubt they are going to summons me.
Guys, I appreciate your input positive and negative. As stated, I am looking for your opinions based on your experience. Also, I have provided information about this injury that you can use and perhaps pass to your employees to prevent a similar incident. Something caused the winch to turn when the mechanic was "in the bite". I am trying to determine what it was.
what type of winch was it? Clarke? gear o matic? braden? was it a generic winch that was used on a skidder or was it a actual "break free" skidder winch? there should be no reason to have your arm inside of the winch drum/housing when spooling cable PERIOD. if you have a knob slot in the drum side you simply install the knob and put it into the drum slot, hold tension on slack end of cable and spool on drum. if the drum slot is worn and the knob wont stay in then repair the slot (or wedge it in with a small tree branch). at no point should you ever have your arm/hand inside of the drum while the machine is running, at no point should your arm/hand be in a cable pinch point. mostly on cat winches but also seen on skidders its just to keep the cable from jumping the drum and breaking the housing if the cable is slack (buddy ripped a clarke winch off his 667 because the cable jumped the drum), some have it some dont. i think your mechanic made a consious decision to put his hand/arm where it should not have been, if i was working in a shop (and i have 4yr's doing so as a professional another 10yr's on my own equipment) and i had a problem due to a worn cable or winch part and had no choice but to do something as dangerous as stick my hand in a winch to spool line back on it.... i would wrap the cable around the arch and tell the owner to do it himself.
Looks like my sense of smell is still bang on.
Thank you. The mechanic asked the helper to start the engine so the winch would release. I do not know if its other than a John Deere winch. He used the John Deere manual to rebuild it. He had not finished wedging the used cable in and wanted to rotate the winch to a different orientation.
So does that mean you won't provide an opinion? Why?
Because this is the internet,where opinions are like a-holes. Do you intend to use internet armchair opinions as "generally accepted practices in the industry"? Why not go to the manufacturer,to the shops and to the guys out in the bush directly? I think we both know why you won't.
I've been watching this thread for a couple days and I'm suspicious as well about its intent. I'll not have these forums used to gather information to be used in legal proceedings, or have the appearance of such.