Posting for my brother, he has a small farm and pickups just aren’t handling his needs anymore. He’s looking for a used class 6 truck, 26000 GVWR (although he has a farm exemption for needing a CDL). Primary use will be hauling round hay bales, feed, etc. Probably will tow a stock trailer and a 8 ton equipment trailer occasionally. One of the trucks he’s considering is a 1998 Ford F800 with the 5.9 Cummins and Allison auto. Link to truck ad is: https://boston.craigslist.org/sob/cto/d/east-freetown-1998-cummins-12v/7830745694.html Owner says it was a crane truck, bed needs repair but the frame and cab are solid. Also will need rear tires. Any thoughts on this truck or medium duty trucks in this vintage are appreciated!
I've always been a fan of Ford trucks and the Cummins/Allison combo is a proven drivetrain in any truck. I have heard issues about some of the brake systems Ford used, some are both problematic and difficult to get parts for. I'd check on that with this truck.
I've run several Ford, Chevy and IH medium duties over the years for my farm and construction business, had good luck with all of those, but prefer the diesel offerings in the Fords and IH in the 90's-00's. This is my '00 IH 4700, air brakes, DT466, Allison MT643, 14' flat bed and 25' 22K pintle hitch trailer: Very versatile both on the job site and the farm. Hauls any equipment I own, 22 4x5 round bales or 300-320 square bales. Few bits of advice: -Airbrakes are a must, not only because they stop better and are safer, but mostly because the parts are far more universal and easier to come by on these older trucks. -5.9 Cummins, while a great motor, is too small for a medium duty if towing and/or hills are involved. DT466, Cummins 8.3, Ford/NH 7.8, 180-190hp minimum. -if you want an automatic, stay away from the Allision AT545, it was marginal at best in school busses, completely unsuitable for heavy towing/hauling. MT643 and MT653 are good choices, as are the newer MD3060 etc -If you want a truck you can still get parts at the dealer for, IH is one of the better ones. They still have most everything I need for my '00 4700. Ford and Chevy got out of the medium duty game for a good while, and although they are building them again, there is a complete lapse in their parts system for all the older stuff. I do also have a Ford F600 and LT9000, some of the stuff is universal (axle, drivetrain, etc) but cab parts especially are getting tougher to find.
I'm with MG on this one. Having owned several 4700's with DT466's of that vintage they are very reliable and straight forward. No powerhouse but no medium duty of this vintage was. Always enjoyed driving the 4700-4900 series cabs due to the wide open windshield and comfortable cab. The Ford medium duty trucks to me have always been a hodge podge of pickup cab stuffed on a medium duty chassis which made them awkward to drive. Funny thing is I really like driving our ol' L9000 for the same reasons I live driving the 4700's. Ford guy all the way except for their medium duty line - it's lacking IMO. Just my $.02
Later model juice brakes aren’t bad for parts. Do not buy ANYTHING with Lucas Girling brakes. Parts are scarce and they’re nothing but trouble, even more when the truck sits more than it runs. If you do end up with an International get friendly with the parts guy. Walk-in pricing at our dealer is high. It took me awhile to get my pricing reasonable. Nothing with a Maxxforce engine if it is an International.
Thanks guys! I will pass this all along. My brother found a few other options he’s considering as well, if any of those look promising I’ll post those trucks for further feedback.
If it has this brake system on it Run don't walk away! https://www.zf.com/products/media/automotive/cv/literature_downloads_wna/truck_solutions/hydraulic_power_brake_maintenance_manuals/MM0401_web.pdf
The F7000 in our avatar has full air brakes, I have a parts truck with the Lucas Girling brakes…it looks a real mess! Oil leaks everywhere! This one has the Ford/NH (‘Brazilian‘) 6.6. Also had a Ford/NH 7.8. Both very reliable for us…
Replying to @Junkyard but looking for input from anyone- how do you tell if a vehicle has the Lucas Girling brake system? Asking some of these sellers seems to result in a blank stare… Thanks!
Next up in the list of options is this minimal information seller: Facebook www.facebook.com His story is that he bought it to convert to a hook lift and then realized it would be too expensive. Needs a brake return spring, some exterior bed lights replaced and an electrical short corrected. I don’t know what engine or transmission is in it. For those without Facebook (like me): 1997 Ford F700- 1997 ford f700 flatbed truck 17 foot body gas motor 130,000 miles Runs good needs little tlc good tires no rot
Big spring can on the back side and large line feeding in is best way to spot Lucas Girling. As already mentioned best to just avoid any of the juice brake systems as parts are getting harder and harder to find. As for the last posted truck if its a gas engine its a 429CI/7.0L Ford. Was the only option.
Thank you!
So this truck has the Lucas Girling brakes… on to the next one!
Every truck I’ve seen with them also has a yellow knob in the cab to release the parking brake. Looks very similar to an air brake truck. My F-600 has them, it’s got a separate belt driven pump to provide release.
One of my friends has a old truck like that. I'm going to see if it has those brakes, he doesn't use it so no biggie.
Prior trucks I posted are out of the running at this time. Next one under consideration is a 1996 International 4700. Manual trans, diesel engine (I’m not sure which one though). Does not have air brakes but is not a lucas girling system either. Seems to be well maintained with records, 211k miles. Price has been negotiated below the asking price. Thoughts or things to check/look out for in this truck? I really hate Facebook, but that seems to be where all the ads are these days: Facebook www.facebook.com
That truck might be worth a look. It's got the T444 (7.3), they were good motors although not as sought after as the DT466. Might be a little light on power, that tag on the valve cover will list bhp. I don't remember in those years what the hp range was on those, but I think it could have been anywhere from 165-210hp. If it has the 6+1 transmission and/or deep gears it might make a good farm truck.
International also had 4 wheel disk brakes back then that I liked even better than the air drum brakes
Thanks guys! I will pass that along!
Any concerns about the mileage on the International? As a farm truck this thing is likely going to see 2-5k a year.
Its got enough on it
There isn't really a good way to know the true mileage on these trucks, unless there are records since new. These trucks were notoriously bad for the instrument clusters going bad and being swapped out. If they put a used one in it could be more or less than the actual mileage on the truck, or some would just put a new one in. You can hook up to the computer and it will also have a record of the mileage and engine hours, if they match the instrument cluster it's a good sign. That said, the ECU's on these trucks also often got swapped for other used units, so there isn't a good way to tell. I went and looked at one a while back that someone had swapped the instrument cluster on, hooked up to the ECU (which was original) and the truck had 24,000 hrs on it. Was a fuel oil delivery truck and probably spent thousands of hours running the pump, sitting in traffic, etc. I decided to pass on that one. If it is 211K, if the truck was treated well and serviced regularly it probably still has a lot of life left, especially for your low usage. Best thing on these is just disregard the odometer and go by the condition of the truck and engine. If it runs good, all the fluids stay where they're supposed to, and it doesn't have excessive blow-by chance are its fine.
If you are only going to put on 2,000 miles a year, it probably doesn't matter how many miles are on it now. You'll have more problems from sitting still than wearing things out.
Thank you! He’s going to go look this one over- I’ll either post questions or a pic of the new purchase lol!
So, my brother bought this truck today. Good maintenance records, very clean and little to no rust. Talked the seller down to $4500 so I think he did pretty good! I’ll upload a few pics when I check it out this weekend. Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions.
I checked out the new purchase today, looks very clean and well maintained. Was originally owned by a sports field maintenance company so it was not driven in winter, probably why there’s very little rust. It has the 7.3l set at 175hp. What’s required to increase it to the 190 or 210hp variants? Being a farm truck, it’s unlikely to see more than 55 mph but I’d like to know if increasing the hp rating is reasonably done if needed at a later time. Also, the speedometer, tachometer, and engine temp gauges do not work. The needles sweep at start up and then rest on zero. Any suggestions on where to start troubleshooting?
Clean little truck. Personally I wouldn't mess with upping the HP on such an old vehicle. That engine has been used to where it's been all these years so no reason to mess with it - just drive it.
This engine is very similar to the 7.3 PowerStroke, IH supplied Ford the long block and Ford designed their own injection system and electronics. The Ford version was 225HP due to the horsepower wars among pickup manufacturers. Although the horsepower rating of the IH is lower I remember the torque ratings were much higher than the Fords. The IH was also much less problematic than the Ford at this "detuned" rating. I'd just leave it alone as well.
I did up a web page on how to repair the instrument cluster. A very common problem. http://cathearder.thsite.top/ih.html
Looks nice! Door sills look good… Shows the evidence of being parked in the winters. Good luck with it!
Thanks for that! Our tandem dump has similar gauge problems which I will have to tackle soon.
All our trucks look like that down here.
I only buy clean rust free southern trucks now, not worth dealing with the nasty rusted out crap around here. If there is salt on the road my big trucks/trailers stay parked, hopefully they will stay nice for a while. Only thing that goes out in the winter is my F250 and small equipment trailer. I used those same instructions to fix mine (on a thread you posted here I believe?) Not a hard job for anyone decent at soldering.
Lucky for you, I am envious! BC’s interior is a pretty arid environment however a number of years back they started applying heavy ‘brine’ to the roads in winter. Now ‘pristine’ Okanagan machinery/trucks etc are becoming a bit hard to find….
It probably would not hurt to replace the illumination lights in the instrument panel when it's out.
We had a fleet of 4800s, and they were good solid trucks. They hauled a pile of Asphalt. Love to have the money that went through the tailgates. Last one retired a couple years ago over 900000 KMs, around 560000 miles. Keep an eye on the cab supports if you run it in the salt. And the dash did the same in all of them. Probably a good purchase.
ALDOT in the last several years starting using some kind of de-icer on the main roads when it may snow which means like maybe once a year.
Any more pics of the engine? Does it have a turbo and intercooler? I'm not familiar with the IH 7.3L engines, but as Steve mentioned, it probably has a different fuel system than the Ford 7.3 diesels. In which case it may be easier to turn it up with some injector pump adjustments. If it does have a HEUI system like Ford used, then there are lots of aftermarket upgrades that could be done. My understanding is that the earlier Ford versions were not intercooled and had slightly different turbo and intake setups than the newer ones. My '02 has the latest version of the 7.3L with more sensors and programming and was set at 275 HP from the factory. I'm not sure how much of this if any translates to the IH engines.
I wouldn't mess around with the motor looking for 20 HP. It's 30 years old and he's got nowhere important to go. If you wanted more ponies, he should have brought a bigger truck.
The place i work at had 2 of these trucks . They stopped using the last one and told me I could have it I DIDNT WANT TO TAKE IT HOME!!! I forgot or didn't ask for the title now my brother is interested in it. I wish I would have got it scrapped before now. The place I work at sold out I am going to check on the title but it could be a deal.
I think that's an idi, is there a injection pump in the middle?
Pretty sure its the T444E, not only based on the year but you can almost read the badge on the hood and also appears to have the wiring harness that runs under the valve covers. Fuel filter/bowl mounted on top also looks like the later models. Regardless, I agree with the others, leave the power level set where it's at. I wish my 4700 had more power, but not bad enough to mess with anything. Its reliable and gets the job done which is what matters most.
The Manuals for that engine and truck are still available. I would download them just in case. T444E Diagnostic Manual T444E Service Manual 1996 4000 Series Wiring Manual
On the subject of jucing it up. I drove a rollback with on in it and it was pretty well tuned up. At 26000 hills where done at the speed limit. Any how it shows it can be done. To do it i have no idea.
Thank you! I’ll get those saved.
Question on oil pressure: thanks to @mekanik the manual says at low idle speed (700 rpm) minimum 83 kPa (12 psi), at high idle speed 276-345 kPa (40-50 psi) Currently, on this truck the oil pressure gauge sits between 30 and 40psi when running. Thoughts? What’s the minimum oil pressure during driving conditions that would be considered normal?
How are you measuring the oil pressure? High idle is max governed RPM so 30 to 40 running sound good to me.
So far, we just measured oil pressure with the gauge on the dash at idle and when driving. Might be worth putting a gauge on the engine fitting to confirm that the dash gauge is accurate?
It's a t444, not a t444e, I do not know what a t444 is
A t444 is a 7.3 idi mechanical. The one the op has is a e lecteonic
you can add a hydra chip if you want to increase hp, same engine that is in 7.3 powerstrokes Orion Reflash System™ for Navistar® - Power Hungry Performance Orion Reflash System for Navistar® - The Power is There... Unleash it! Power Hungry Peformance tuning for Navistar equipped Trucks and Buses. gopowerhungry.com
Thanks ALOT. was getting ready to research this for my 1980 S1955.
I bought a landscaper's truck, (in the avatar), 1976 Chevy C65. I kept it 14 years. It developed fuel problems, and I bought a fire truck, put the dump body on it. It was about 10,000 miles on the wheels, plus 650 hours on the engine. Small town fire companies run the trucks outside, leave them idling to circulate water preventing freeze up. I wasn't too worried about mileage or hours. Cat 3208, 10.4 litre turbo diesel. It sounds powerful, but not so much.
Well I suppose if it's a electric oil gauge you could do like Ford did to make customers happy back in the early 6.9/7.3 days. Customers complained of oil gauge showing real low oil psi with the crappy Ford instrument cluster. Dealers would tell a customer to drop off in mornings and it was a 8 hour warranty fix with oil pump--never happened. What did happen was a shunt wire was installed between sending unit and terminal wire to create resistance which raised the needle----Fact. When I worked a short time {thank goodness} for a dealer, I installed several of those phony buggers. At idle the 12 to 20 psi would just move the needle with wire installed at idle it looked like 25 to 30 psi. All at no cost to you. * Corndogs.
That better than now as the oil psi gauge on a Ford means you have at least 5 psi
Says t444 engine family on the sticker, do they not list the e on it I thought they do i don't even know the year of the truck here either
Kinda surprised to see the engine sticker both French And English. Do you suppose the motor was replaced at one time by a used motor from Canada, I thought maybe the truck could have been bought used in Canada, but the dash is MPH, unless it was changed
Good question. Nothing else in this truck appears to be Canadian or French, so who knows?
Not uncommon to see multiple languages on manufacturers stickers. Sticker under my 350 on the air filter has 4 languages -
Yeah but that's several languages. In Canada everything you buy, is French and English. I'm looking at a can of Monster, and everything is those 2 languages. If I get a letter from the government, my property tax bill. English on one side, French on the other. As I type this, I have another computer, and I am copying it over in French. Be the same on a truck here, but no spanish, or arabic. New Hampshire is not far from Canada. Maybe the engine was replaced.
Can you post the last eight of the VIN? I might be able to tell you.
Truck questions!?
TH226589
No info on an engine replacement, The truck was sold new into New York.
Must be common practice by Intersmashional
Most all soaps, shampoos and mouth wash have instructions in English and French.
hyd brake parts are real difficult to get, if it was air brakes it would be good unless you need to do a lot of towing
this truck should do the job if used mostly local , parts for brakes and other normal stuff is readily available.
Local volunteer fire company needs a new(er) tanker. Garage door is 8'11" tall. They found a used IH. Low mileage, cab & chassis. It'll just fit the door, have to be careful to not let ice build up just outside the door. It came from National Grid In Alabama, a transformer hauler. It'll need a tank fabricated. There's talk of aluminum. I've never used a spool gun with aluminum, I'm more sure of myself with TIG.
Willie you better keep an eye on that truck after first winter it will be wanting to come home
No risk at all! Only once in history has a northern truck gone south. My 2001 four wheel drive van went to Charleeeee Greeeer in Taswell Tennessee. It had been oil undercoated annually. Rust was confined to behind the rear tires. He was happy to have it.
Well, new truck has starting issues…. New thread here: HeavyEquipmentForums