Just when I think everything is fixed another problem comes up. The battery post connections on my Cat have always stayed clean but after fixing the backhoe noticed the battery connections were quite corroded. There was even corrosion on the hold down bracket quite a ways from the battery posts. I had to boost the Cat but put a charger on the battery for about 4 1/2 hours yesterday. It would only charge to 80%. I took the positive cable off and after cutting the corroded cable and splicing a new piece of cable and clamp today, it still needed to be boosted. So looks like I need a new battery. Of course it has to be an expensive 8D battery. Is it common for a battery to go bad and cause corrosion on the terminals and other places when there never used to be any corrosion?
That's a new one on me. I use NOALOX from Ideal on the terminals & have never had corrosion, but I've seen plenty of corroded terminals that weren't treated.
I've seen it a lot, mostly cars. I was told by an old timer if the positive is getting crudy the battery is on its way out, the crud is from the alternator over charging it he said. So far he's always been right, every time I load test a battery with this it fails or is weak.
Batteries running hot emitting gases will do that. Removed a set of 4-group 31hd's this week that had a plate drop causing internal short. Boiling hot misting out the vent.
I was lucky the place I get batteries (they recondition them) had an 8D. I've had very good luck with reconditioned batteries from them. The one I was replaced was about 7 years old and cost $80 if I recall. The one before that lasted about 10 years. The reconditioned battery in my tractor is still going strong after about 14 years! It's possessed but in a good way. The 8D was $110 exchange. I had to pay $135 but will get $25 back when I take them the old one. Their price for a new one was $260/$265 which is way cheaper than anywhere else I checked. The lowest I found was $309. The reconditioned one is a Cat battery and a lot heavier than the one that came out. The guy said Cat batteries typically have thicker plates to handle vibration better. Thankfully a friend was able to come out and help me take out the old battery and install the new one. We used a come-a-long on a grab handle on the roll bar and swung the battery out where we could slide it into the skid steer bucket. I didn't remove the backhoe but lifted it off the brackets and drove ahead about 8 inches just to have a little extra room to get at the battery. I've changed the battery myself in the past but don't how I managed to do it after remembering how heavy an 8D battery is. Machine started instantly and should be good for several years. Reconditioned battery has a 1 year warranty and I think a new one is 18 month's. The guy said they typically expect about 4 years out of a reconditioned battery but I've always had them last much longer than that.
I checked the number on the battery I got and it's 153-5720. That's the highest rated Cat battery with 1500 CCA and looks like it's about $491.00cad. for a new one. I realize it's a reconditioned battery but it still has the heavy duty construction from original. If I'm lucky it wasn't in real bad shape when it was replaced and after reconditioning it will last like a new one. Cat claims their premium high output batteries last 3 to 5 times longer than other batteries and have to meet more stringent tests. The battery won't get much of a workout starting a 65 HP 3204. It starts the engine instantly. I'm sure Cat must have spec'd. an 8D battery to act as more counterweight. It weighs 132lbs.!
East Penn makes those for Cat. Very high quality battery.
That's what I've been reading. The 1st battery they brought out had a small crack on the top so they took that one back. I was so glad the 2nd battery they gave me was also a Cat battery as I've read they are much better for vibration resistance. I think they were going to throw the cracked one out. I almost felt like asking what they'd sell it for. The former owners of the shop would use a soldering iron to repair minor cracks on the top of a battery. I don't even think the crack was right through. If I had to guess maybe the Cat batteries came out of a generator or something where they need to work when required so were just replaced. I don't think most people would pay the premium price for a Cat battery but larger operations would. East Penn Honored as Certified Supplier to Caterpillar for the Fifteenth Year - East Penn Manufacturing
I toured the East Penn factory back in my Caterpillar days.
It's apparently the largest lead acid battery facility in the world. 520 acres or something crazy like that.
Here is an instructional video. Just rebuild the one that you already have.
I think I'll just buy one. That can't be too healthy.
No kidding. I got cancer, tetanus & lead poisoning from watching it.
I swear by Cat batteries and pay a little extra when replacing batteries on trucks and equipment. I've had them last 10 years on a regular basis, I only got 3 years from the one I bought at Advance.
Me too. I like them and availability is good. Deka makes a damn good one, too. I will purchase the group 31 AGM Dekas when I need to air freight a truck battery to a remote place. No extra hazmat charges for agm, if they are packed correctly. My fav parts store packs them for me.
I believe Deka are made by East Penn too.
Batteries are made to a price point. If quality is defined as meets specifications and goals, walmart used to have the highest quality batteries available. 12 month battery, I never had one fail in 12 months or less. But it seems like they were all dead before 18 months. I have used Interstate, but switched to CarQuest as the delivery is much easier. Within the last year I have switched back to Interstate as the CarQuest weren't lasting much beyond the 12 month commercial warranty. I've got group 31 Interstate that are over 5 years old and still going strong.
For a 3204 I'd just get 2 group 65's Really hate 4d and 8d batteries, I run 3 of the semi batteries over a 8d
Other than the weight I've had good success with reconditioned 8D's. 10 and 7 years out of batteries that weren't even new, I can't complain.
Hahahahahah Hahahahhaha Hahahahahaha Hahahahaha https://www.amazon.com/270-LiFePO4-...1_7?keywords=8d+battery&qid=1660779952&sr=8-7
My brother can sell you one for $5,000, 40v
I use costco batteries 48 month replacement warranty and no questions asked. Walk in and tell them its no good and they dont replace the battery but they reimburse you then you got get another and buy it and that starts the warranty all over again.
$110.00 and I expect at least 5 years so I'm happy with that. I think I could double that considering it's a Cat battery and I another brand last 10 years that was also reconditioned. I will say that the lithium jump starter I got works great! It started my welder 6 to 8 times with a dead battery on a single charge and even started the Cat a few times no problem when the battery was only showing between 8 .7 and 9.3 volts. The welder has a magneto so doesn't rely on the battery for anything other than starting. The Cat is basically the same being a diesel. It started my 6.0L gas water truck but the battery was so low that it quit running after about 30 seconds. The lithium jump starter doesn't continue to supply power like a conventional battery type jump starter. What I did was boost the water truck with my pickup and and let it run long enough to charge the battery so my battery charger would work. Then I left the battery charger on for about an hour and then the water truck would keep running after it was boosted.
I used 2 semi batteries in place of s 4d batteries for a bit, but found in the winter they don't have anywhere close to the cranking power and low voltage light would constantly come on after a cold start, not worth the bit of savings to me. Also assuming they likely wouldn't last as long.
What engine
I ran two group 31s in the Allis loader, did fine and easier to handle than a 8D or wrestling with four group 4 6v units 1000cca each spun it like a top.
Is 31 the 3/8" post common semi batteries?
Can get either stud or post
I have 2 8D's in my tractor, and one in my TLB which are new by prior owners. Once these go they will be replaced with 31P batteries. Battery technology is much better now than when the tractor(s) were new. I've done mostly away will all the 6VDC batteries in my antique trucks standardizing on group 31, or 29 series.
I have rather new 65's in my rig pickup, once they go they are getting 31's with the stud in case of a dead battery after working all day I can pull a couple 31's out of the rig and start the pickup. This has happened a few times before and it sucks when your hot and tired and have to wait 30 mins - 1 hr for a jump.
Hi, new here and am fascinated by the battery discussion. A year old, but, I dont think anything has changed ; jump starting, corrosion, 2 people to lift the batteries, self discharging from non use, not wanting to spend more than a couple hundred bucks... Sounds like the same old wagon wheel story. All golf carts used to use lead batteries, now, over half are using lithiums. So, whats preventing the heavy equipment crowd from using them ?? I'd like to know. Does anyone here know what the max current draw is from the 24V starter ?
Cost, availability, supply chain, and alternator technology. Current draw depends upon the size of the engine. 200 Amps to 2000 amps.
There already is some battery powered heavy equipment. One of the big issues is how to charge the batteries on the job site? Nobody wants to haul machines to a charging station and back to the jobsite everyday. Might help to do a little research before posting a question.
A serious concern in general, fires with Lithium batteries. Insurers do not want to cover those as are the achilles heel of these batteries.
Cost is probably the big one. 2 seconds on Google and I'm seeing 12 volt lithium batteries with a 750 CCA rating are $900. I can pick up a similar rated CAT battery for $210. Almost a fifth of the cost. Nobody will pay $2000-2500 for an 8D size lithium battery when they can buy a regular lead acid battery that does the job just as well for $500 or less.
Li batteries should last longer but you don't get the goodie out of them if they are stolen.
OK, lets dig into this some more... Are we talking 12V or 24V systems ? I'm assuming 24V here. COST (purchase )- Lets use a 4D size as a standard; If the sole purpose is to start the engine , and assuming 1500amps will start 99% of the engines, ( and all the specs I see from the lead batteries are 1500A tops ) using CAT as a guide..., $405 for the model 153-5910. times 2 to get 24V , so, $810. am I right ? the AGM varieties are going for about $700... x's 2 = $1400 COST - downtime for dead , discharged, time replacing and servicing...???? Fires - non issue Alternator - drop in replacement Availability - apparently a lithium alternative is not available , right ? Cycle life - Lithium would be 3 x's longer. Nobody figures that into the cost though.... Weight - two 4D 12V batteries will weigh about 260 lbs together right ?, so, installing them requires a crane right ? ... a single 24V lithium battery with 1500 cranking amps would weigh about 33 lbs. Charging - reading from this forum the lead acid batteries require charging, recharging a LOT , especially so after non use of the equipment for a period of time. equals more downtime.. cost ? Not needed with lithium. ( assuming their is no parasitic drain ) Am I missing anything ?
Can't think of a single time I've needed a crane to install/remove 4D batteries (or even 8D batteries).
Let's go with lith lasting twice as long in my area batteries go bad in summer to much heat. lith is not immune to heat So when the battery goes bad where do you buy an off the shelf lith battery and keep working that day
Wonder how they do in 35 below as well?
Since lithiums operate up to 165 F, i would think they would be less affected than lead. THis from Crownbattery com - For each 10°F rise in temperature, the life of a sealed lead acid battery is cut in half. Therefore, if a battery in a stationary position that should last for 4 years at normal temps, would last 2 years if exposed 92°F and even less if exposed to typical desert temps of 106°F. THere is no ' off the shelf lithium battery ' like this so you have to plan ahead and aquire it beforehand. I dont know of anybody that can remove a 130 lb battery themselves.
how about 60 below ? how about in the arctic ? how about on the moon ?
I can do that and usually have five or six good hours before I regret it immensely.
Had a dead brush truck at the FD one afternoon, something left on. It was equipped with a fire pump on the back, electric start v twin. Also had a pull rope, got the pump started and let it circulate water while its internal alternator charged the truck. Took a few hours to get the truck enough juice to start. Didn't happen to have a spare charger or booster cables so let the pump do its job while fixing a dozen other things.
Exactly, the backpain takes several hours before incapacitation. So, I think a 33 lb or so 24V lithium battery would cost about $1200 ... compare that to two 12v AGMs at $700 each... looks like a bargain to me. Would anyone else here like to try it ?
Right, get your tools picked up quick and turn on the heated seats! I picked up a battery at the dump the other day, Antigravity 800cca battery, weighed about a pound or two, looks like it'd fit a jeep or small car, has a built in BMS and protection, kind of interested to see what it'll do. Seemed to load test okay on a conventional resistive load checker.
If Lithium batteries are making inroads everywhere else in starting engines, why not heavy equipment ? Who here on this forum has the foresight and $$ to be the first ? Is there a market for them is what I'm trying to find out.
Crane to install a battery You have to be kidding.
ha, those suckers are heavy , block and tackle ? , engine hoist, 4 burly guys ? chain hooked to a tow hitch ?
130 lbs is less than my bench press warmup.
I'm guessing dirt2dig is affiliated with a lithium battery company and weighs about 105lbs. soaking wet. I thought the initial question was regarding electric heavy equipment not starting batteries. I can't justify the cost of a lithium 8D equivelant battery. I needed help with an 8D battery after the cancer diagnosis but go back a few years and I changed it by myself. It's weight helps as a counterweight on my track loader. I bought a used reconditioned 8D for $80 that lasted 10 years. A reconditioned group 31 in my tractor is still going strong after over 13 years. It cost $40. A few weeks ago I was reading about a couple dozen electric cars ruined on a cargo ship because of a fire caused by lithium batteries. Yeah, fire is a big issue. I do like my lithium jump starter though.
I hate ads especially bad ones
Just got a Rural King flyer ... Group 31 batteries are on sale for $79.99 (down $20) Both types of posts are included in sale... https://www.ruralking.com/catalogse...ust+2023&utm_content=2023-08-31+Week+35+Flyer
The Schucks delivery lady, maybe 125lbs, asked if I needed a purse when I said I'd grab a cart for the 4D battery. She grabbed it like it weighed 40lbs.
Absolutely Had an artic truck that was just fine when I did a 2000 hour service and rental turn on it. Week later it won’t start despite the fact that I cut the battery switch off. Pull off the battery compartment plate after barely getting the hood raised on the last juice and the tops of the batteries were COVERED in the crap The biggest challenge I face at work is getting the rental guys to understand that if they have to boost a rental machine off that it needs a set of fresh batteries and clean the terminals well. The cost of a set of batteries replaced in the shop is peanuts compared to sending a field truck out to change the batteries not to mention dealing with an irate rental customer who is hot that he can’t use the machine he rented until it’s fixed.
I absolutely use a crane and a strap to install batteries in equipment I don’t lift a damn thing I don’t have to and don’t expend more energy than I have to.
Interstate used to be my go to source for batteries. IMO their batteries are crap today. Interstate is nothing but a marketing company from what I understand and made in Mexico. Probably by Johnson Controls. I am trying O' Reilly batteries which are supposed to be Deka/ East Penn products. I saw a East Penn 18 wheeler leaving Walmart Auto recently. Who knows today. Interestingly I once had large 12 volt on my old A/C motor grader last 12 years. The guys at Interstate could not believe it. Same size in a Continental lasted 1 year. That was one of the 125 Lb. puppies. The grader takes two for the 24 volt starter. Stay cool out there!
Dendrites in the solid-electrolyte interphase is the reason for lithium fires caused from ethylene carbonate that they use to trying enhance the battery performance in some cases, others are punturing the battery for it to short circuit or catch fire and lastly faulty BMS. (battery management system) Trying to charge a LiFePO4 below 32° F will destroy it. Don't let lead acid get below it's 80% SOC (state of charge) and it will last a long time. Try to keep a LiFePO4 above 50% of it's SOC for longevity I can send this thread down a rabbit hole when it comes to batteries, after all I weld with one as part of my PV system in a place where temperatures go from -40°F to 115°F It's not the years you have a battery that counts, it's the cycles it has been through. Vibrations kill batteries. Sulphation kills batteries.
Buddy used to say "Jack not name Jack job"
You made all those words up, I unrolled a lithium battery and it was only filled with fire and smoke.
Don't let the smoke out
I have an Interstate group 31 on my Bobcat from 2012. No trouble so far.
I've always changed the batteries in my personal vehicles no later than the 4 year mark. Last one I bought for my F150 was about $200. Cheap compared to calling a tow company to come boost me.
My max bench press is delco 42mt I practiced yesterday
Sounds like my day yesterday, except I had to drop it in from above.
I was lucky I had help that went under the skid steer to replace the drive motor. That bugger is heavy and awkward to get at. Batteries can usually be lifted up and lowered into place or slid into place.
So.. Lithium is ok in a jump starter but not as a starting battery.
No problem, you can get smoke refill cans. I saw them somewhere on HEF
It can do both, a lithium will put out more and take in more based on C ratings. So not to confuse people on what C rating means, here is a chart of LifePo4 vs your everyday lead acid battery.
I think people here would rather buy refurbished lead acid batteries from a junkyard to put in their machines.
I just don't see the point to spending all that $$$$$ when lead acid batteries have done the job just fine for many decades. No need to reinvent the wheel IMO.
I dont see any discussion in forum about jump starters. What are people using, brand, price paying...?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0836GL9VY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
funny.... 24V only and something less than $400 and weight half as much
Quit being a troll. I've got a minimum of 7 and usually over 10 years buying reconditioned batteries at less than half of new and I didn't buy them at a junkyard. I have absolutely no complaints with saving that kind of money. I bought a lithium jump pack because it is easy to carry around. A battery in a machine only gets moved when it's installed or replaced. The weight of a battery(s) adds weight to a machine which aids traction and in the case of my track loader also adds counterweight. Both are things a lithium battery can't do.
I don't think you will get any sales here buddy
IF your batteries were so good, why would you need a jump starter in the 1st place ? ok, so, you dont mind messing with the flooded batteries and the outgassing and corroded terminals and acid fumes and you get 10 yrs of maintence free life out it for $50 where do i sign up ?
Usually because the operator didn't hit the night switch or left the key on.
Who said I was boosting the reconditioned batteries? I boosted my welder because I don't use it a lot and didn't want to buy a battery until I did. It has a Magneto so only needs a battery for starting. I boosted my water truck because the battery was a little low from sitting over winter and I wanted the fastest cranking. I boosted the Cat before I realized the battery needed to be replaced after over 7 years. I also boosted my quad because the battery had gone low. There are many reasons a booster pack comes in handy. Maybe something couldn't be plugged in the winter and needed some extra juice to start. I get mine at the Battery Dr. Too bad you're so far away.
I have heavy duty jumper cables, $100, will last till they get stolen. Just like my batteries that got stolen too
Good point there. In a lot of cases its probably easier to swipe a battery than a cat or DPF.