Yes yes yes I know this machine is obsolete/probably wore outjunk, but despite that, it would work for my needs. The crane in question is a 40t P&H 440TC 1979 vintage, it sold in auction previously, but it's listed for sale again (same auction house, bit of a head scratcher why). I don't know much about cranes, I understand the physics behind them and the importance of load charts, but never operated on (trying to fix a junk RT-63s for a friend). Portability isn't a huge concern, but I would eventually like to have the capability of roading it (would not be doing lifts for hire, just moving my junk). Is this a "friction" crane, I think I understand what that means, that the winches are controlled with clutches and brakes, but not 100% sure. What are the wear points on these machines? Overstressed boom, wornout cable, engines, clutches and brakes jump to my mind. Would there be anything specific to look for when inspecting it? I've seen the machine before, sat in the cab briefly and didn't think it was too abused, but this was just a visual inspection in passing. Thanks for any and all info as usual.
Yes it is a friction crane. I would not be surprised if it was in pretty decent shape. For the most part truck cranes were not abused as they were not user friendly like a tracked machine for drag line work and the like. My guess is that it had a good life just hoisting and just got to old for hire work. Cab not cozy enough for todays operators and not enough safety's on it for OSHA work. Looks like manual outriggers on the back. A bit of work to crank to set up but they don't leak down! They are a bit tougher to use with out a lot of practice but as long as you don't have people under the hook they can be a lot of fun and handy to. Its not a machine you can boom down with and hold the load level but still very useable. Lots of operating tricks with these old girls but we can go discuss some of them if you get it and start using it. Is there ball and multipart block with it? How mush boom does it have?
Yep, that's why they're called a friction crane. :drinkup There are still parts out there for old P&H cranes, may have to do some searching and they may be a bit expensive though. How well the upper and lower engine start and run means a lot as to what it's worth. And most of those P&H cranes have hydraulic controls for the levers, like a brake master cylinder and slave cylinders, as opposed to linkage. It's not unusual for those master cylinders and slave cylinders to fail and start leaking just like the brake components on an old car. Worst thing about that particular rig is the screw jack outriggers. To hell with that screw jack stuff, I've put some boom sections in those old P&H rigs, swing over the side and grab a hold of something heavy, like a big dozer, winch in on the load line and tip the crane to that side, then go around to the other side and stuff the outrigger pads and cribbing under the beams. Definitely check all the cables, the friction clutches and brake, and make sure the boom down pawl holds the boom when you let off of the boom down lever, but that's kinda hard to test with only the heel section of boom mounted, need more stick to put some weight on the boom cable drum.
A visual of the boom would be in order. You will see if it has been bent. Not likely though as these old rigs were overbuilt in the boom. If bent they were usually buckled beyound any hope of use. Brakes and clutches last a long time. They are easily relined. More likely they are rotted from age and weather than worn out. Not sure how weathertight the clutches are on that one. An old crawler P&H 30 ton we had years ago had brakes that got wet in 2 minutes in any rain. Never had to work thru a shower with that one. Would have to dry them to go back to work. Is it air controlled? Pancakes leak one in a while but usually easy to get at and replace. Theboom swing ones went out the most on the 30 tonner.
Ok thanks guys, I appreciate it. The listing says it has 150ft 6 section boom, 30ft jib and a 3 sheave Johnson block, Detroits for both the upper and lower. What would ya'll say would be a decent price for it? Assuming not all beat to crap. I don't mind the fact that it's no joystick machine, in fact I think it's pretty cool, but also glad I won't be using it everyday. Being a friction crane, does that mean I can drop stuff like in dynamic compaction? That would be handy. And that's the requirement for using a dragline? Does it need the third winch of that (term I've seen in listings and threads). What about a clamshell?
Yes, you can drop stuff with the load lines as they should be free fall and may have power down as well, can't remember, been toooooo many years ago. Dragline requires the third drum and a fairlead on the heel section. Clambucket only requires two load lines, but without a Rudomatic tag line reel you'll be chasing that bucket around a bit and the bucket can spin around causing your load lines to twist up.
Ok thanks. What about boom erection, is it self erecting or would I need a helper crane? I'd imagine I'd need a helper if I wanted to use all 150' of boom, but have no idea for sure.
Two Detroits? I hope it comes with a few drums of oil. No way I'd pay more than scrap price for it. With current scrap prices, that's less than $2,000. Also, quell any fantasies about driving that thing home. No way it's going to be DOT legal and even if it was, probably does all of 40 mph. Figure on trailering it wherever it needs to go.
Detroits don't bug me. I'm sure I'll get nailed for this, but I kinda like the sound of them.... As for price, remember I said it sold in auction before? That was for 4k a couple of months ago. I understand the limitations of this machine and it that it's a design that's been eclipsed, but if it's not beat to crap it would do exactly what I need. And that's to function as a simple, easy to fix, cheap crane and that's the impression I'm getting, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. And as far as moving it, I think your right about having it hauled, but for different reasons. I just doubt that it would be road ready for the aprox 50 miles trip from the auction lot to the farm. And as far as 40 mph, that's flying to compared to some of the stuff that I have roaded. Long story short when the first farm was sold, all the equipment (old junk btw) was moved to the house in town until. Most was driven, right down the access road of I-10, at no more than 10 MPH, lemme tell you 4 hours behind a Case 700 combine at that speed gets boring fast! Just have an escort truck in the back as a blocker, go slow and safe and it's no big deal. Lots more gobbery stories here, but it's got nothing to do with this crane.....
Should be a piece of cake, brighter bulbs may know better than I but 150' of lattice boom ain't all that heavy.
Well, self erecting was the way we did those cranes when I worked with them back in the '80's, takes a little positioning of the trailer hauling the boom sections. Meet them up with the top boom pins, drive them in, boom up to locate the bottom boom pins, drive them in, boom up to lift boom section from trailer. Once we bucked all of the boom sections to the crane we'd put the boom over the rear, lock the house lock and drive the rig on the job site and set it up.
I've seen some of the new superlift units with 300' or more of main boom and a luffer, takes two assist cranes to get the boom(s) up to enough of an angle the crane can take the weight. Seen one new one with a huge detachable counterweight sled that's just for getting the boom off the ground. Crazy.
Well thanks to all, you've answered a lot of my questions. I'll see about posting some more pictures when I go see the machine sometime this weekend.
Hey Guys, That Rig does have Hyd. outriggers, the screws are for slight adjustment, ran one for years, love them for what they could do, clamwork, drive piling with a drop hammer, pour concrete, etc. put about 70 ft. of boom in it until you get the hang of it, it does have its bad sides, watch those boom dogs if they don't catch in will be in live boom mode, Good luck any more questions just ask, Dwight
I don't know why you would need two drums of oil for them Detroits if they are in any shape at all. They may have wet stacked a time or two if left idling all the time which is quite the norm in a hoisting rig. A good road trip would be good for the lower. I would not hesitate at all to drive it 50 miles as long as the brakes work. Stick "Not For Hire" signs on the cab, hang a slow moving vehicle sign on the back, remove the plates if it has some and cruise home at a sedate pace. If stopped tell them its for use on the farm(agriculture) for hoisting tractor engines. But then I have no issue roading a DW-21 80 miles either after setting for a few years. I'd drive around the lot a few times and if things work hit the road. Free music from the Detroit's all the way home. How can it get any better than that.
For just lifting "your junk" you probably don't need a lot of boom. As Operator4100 mentioned 70 ft will probably be enough for your needs and will be a lot user friendly along with great capacity. If you put in all 150 Ft and the 30 ft jib look closely at the load chart and erection sequence first. You may not be able to boom all the way down over the sides and have to erect it only off the back. Been there with a number of smaller cranes with a long boom. We had an small Manitowoc with 200 ft of boom and a long jib on a multistory hospital project and the operator whom had been running it for 30 years boomed down over the side in a weak moment to check things over and upended it when it got to 30 percent. Just forgot he had to go over the ends of the tracks. We hardly ever ran more than a 100 ft max on a bridge crane, most of which were 50 ton machines.
Stopped checking this thread for the last few day so missed these posts, thanks guys. I just got back from looking at it, not sure what to think. http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/mebunting/library/440TC?sort=3&page=1 It didn't have the look or feel of an abused machine, but couldn't get the upper to start (it would crank), I just think I wasn't doing something right. The keys weren't in the cab so I'll have to go back again tomorrow to see what the lower does, hopefully it starts. If the lower runs and it's got brakes, I wouldn't have an issue roading it. Do just like old-iron-habit says on a Sunday and act like I know what I'm doing, it's worked before.... Just a matter of it going for cheap enough in the auction. How much do these boom sections weigh? Any ideas about the weight of that counter weight?
What size Detroits are in it? They usually are not to hard to start even when setting foryears as long as they have had the water kept out. I would expect those in the crane to be dry unless the exhaust pipe is open and facing up.
I couldn't tell really but I'd guess the upper to be a 4-71 and the lower to the a 6-71, just guessing. I might be able to find out tomorrow. Any guesses about that counter weight?
Does look like a 4-71, I'm thinking too tall for a 53 series. Just as a guess (it probably says on that chart plate somewhere) I would say 10,000 pounds on the counterweight? I can't read it but I see it tells you how much boom you can lift on that plate. Speaking of boom, you got one picture showing a bent pipe on the base section, have to get that replaced by a certified repair outfit.
On the engines its easy to tell the 53 series from the 71s. The 53s hace screws holding the valve covers on while the 71s have the big round knobs on top the valve covers going thru the middle of the covers to secure them.
The valve covers are dimpled for the screws around the outside, looks like a 53 to me.
I'll second that sure looks like a 53 from the VC and the blower.
I just saw it again. Office sent a guy out with keys, it turned her over and she started with zero hesitation, purred like a kitten. Brakes work and it moved forward and backward. Only reason I can think to have it hauled is that the steering wheels are out of alignment, one turns sharper than the other, they brought it in with a tow truck.
Steering wheels have to turn at different rates as they will have different turn radiuses. Or perhaps you mean it will turn sharper in one direction than the other.
Fully self erecting, but kind of a PITA without at least a forklift around. The boom looks to need some lattices replaced. You can get the material and the the procedures from Telex (I believe). We had a couple of TC-90s of slightly older vintage, and I think the procedures called for 9018 rod. Any properly certified welder can do the repair, but you'll have to document it all and then get a load test.
Looks like a decent old crane.It must have been sitting a long time.Ive run a few of them over the years and owned a 325tc.Keep the brake fluid resivior full and air out of the actuators.4100 made agood point about the boom hoist dogs for power lowering on the boom,dont try and feather the lever,push it full forward when booming down.Is the hand pump in one of the pictures for a counterweight jack?If so that's a big help on self rigging. Good luck
What do ya'll mean by "power lowering"? I think I can guess, but not sure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKrZj8UIMDY
Where you use the drums to lower the load everything through the draw works. Nice looking poor p@h helpless. I have a 371 in mine. When i got mine i had a run away diesel that had a stuck injector. If you go out past port angles in washington state the us govt gave the tribe out there all these big old cranes and the sit. One had a dragline over 10yds. Get to running this you could operate sideboom with no issues. I found a place online if ever you need to replace the pads yourself.
A friend of a relative's in law runs a rental business on Long Island NY. He rented a skid steer to a fly by night outfit involved in industrial buildings. I don't know what they planned to do, but they called to say bring another, this one has four flat tires. He went to investigate. They had lifted it with a crane using a newly installed cable condemned by another company. With the loader high in the air it broke. As the story goes aside from the four flat tires, it was a few inches shorter than it should be.
I know this was from a while ago but in Michigan you need certain permits from dot in order to drive down most class a roads.
that's a funny bobcat story, how can people lie like that ... ok don't answer , Hilary . As for the P & H ,, pump and hope,, looks like a nice restoration project , dam motors as take outs are worth 2k each