G'day everyone! Really appreciate everyone's time and experience here in reading and replying to my 'essay' below... I tried looking and using searchwords here on the forums to find some already shared guidance, but none found yet that can give a clear indication on what's best practice for my job sadly. I live/work on a rural property and need to make an access track up our 20 to 50 degree slope. I am very inexperienced yet damn keen - Though I have no interest in rushing and hurting or killing either my machine, myself, or both. Looking to learn best methods, techniques, and appropriate processes over time. My tools are: A CAT 308-E2 with dozer blade, tilt-mud bucket, and 300mm GP bucket. Also have a tiny T313 'TYM' tractor with a 4-in-1 bucket... Going to slash the hill side first (slasher attachment on digger) and look for what gradient lines may be best to follow. It would be preferable that the track is 2WD accessible. And I figure that the more I can follow a contour line and only cross it up (or down..?) the better... The length I have to work with would be approx 150m of hillside, with a relative height of 30-40m (from the point of driveway where Ill be joining the track to existing access). A few small natural gullies that channel rainwater interspersed also in the hill side (hoping to dodge them if I can...). Degree of slope ranges from 20 to 30 degrees on average, with some few spots high up would be 40, and maybe even 50 degrees in some places as the hillside crests. Starter questions below: 1. Any Youtube vids or channels worth sharing that have operators giving explanations on where/how/why they are cutting a track in a steep slope,etc? 2. Should I cut the track starting from the top working down, or from the bottom working up? I'd prefer the latter as the track will come off our bottom driveway. 3. Cutting and filling as I work my way up (or down..?) any tips? do's? dont's? 4. I assume It would be good practice to angle the track in to the hillside as I go, and make a drainage trench for rain run-off? Happy to be schooled on how this should be done as I go (Track will be covered with minimum size 30/40mm blue metal. Was thinking sandstone/bushrock for the drain trench..?) 5. I'm sure there are many factors I have not thought of yet - Hence this essay of questions... Please let me know! Thanks to all in advance - Hope you're safe and having fun. Ps: can post photos if need. Will wait for requests before doing so. cheers!
There is a ton to unpack there. Firstly, welcome to the forum! Climbing 30M in 150 is pretty steep, and a whole world different to climb 40M. If you have good GPS coverage you can pin that down to a more accurate number with a phone app. Fills depend on the material. What do you have to work with? Do you have some pipe handy? That much of a trail up a slope is going to wash out badly in a heavy rain, so managing that water is really what it is all about. If the material is good enough to compact and stand up, you can do a cut and fill on your way up. Keep in mind the downhill slope has to be shallow enough to stay, unless you have some big rock to steepen up that slope. If there is any question on the material, you may be doing a cut only. It is time consuming, but the native bench you expose will be tougher. You can still waste the material down slope, then dress it up and leave it. Find natural features that are taking the water now, and place your pipe there. If you have crappy stuff, add a down pipe to the end of the pipe to get the water away from your road and eliminate it washing you out. A road that steep will take some building to be 2wd uphill.
Thanks Skyking, appreciate your replies! Which ph app would you recommend for getting accurate GPS data? I don't have any experience with using such..! The hillside is south facing in a steep valley on Sydney's Central Coast. Topsoil is rich, dark and loamy on average for the first 300mm down, then tends to turn to light-orange clay predominantly under that. Not much rock, though the valley does have Sandstone cliffs and ridge-tops above. We easily get flooded in when large rain events pass over, so it's quite lush in here and we have quite a bit of sub-tropical rainforest in some areas also. Id say that this valley bottom would of been a riverbed in eons past. Whatever cut and fill we'd do, we'd want to be planting out the outside of the track asap as well. And any big bits of bush rock we'd find would definitely be used.. finding them in our valley is key! When you say "native bench" that's just the track cut out of the hillside? Would that create more of a sheer dirt/clay wall on the uphill side of the track? and yes a LOT more spoil cut out i'm imagining? We do have a bit of concrete pipe handy, but not much as landscaping overflows, road access, and a trench from our main dam down past the cottage and then main shed is also on the cards... That said, we might be able to utilise a pipe here and there on the access track up, if needed. Hoping to find more pipe cheaply in time too! Instead of pipe, would landscaping a water-course in/as the trench be appropriate you think..? Depends on a host of factors im sure. Come across any Youtube vids that might be similar to our situation? Regardless, Thanks again!
I use Osmand for maps, but I would look up GPS apps for Australia. I see several possibilities there. That dark soil does not belong in the road track, so you want to strip that and if it goes in the fill area, put it outside on the slope. Sounds like you have enough rain there to worry about. You will want some pipe to get that water to the other side of the road, and probably in a couple of places. Pioneer a trail through there and take some pics for us.
Welcome to HEF. Mate you can read all you like, watch all the videos you can but there is no substitute for plonking your clacker on the seat and ave a go yer mug. I'm not trying to be a smart arse, many of us here had to exactly that. You are on your own property so no big harm can be done that can't be rectified which is all part of "the learning" and you'll be better for it IMHO
Pics. of the property would help. I think on steep slopes you'd want to start at the top, especially if you don't have a large machine(s). Gravity would certainly help but need to make sure to stay straight on the slope so you don't roll the machine. I'd try to make a much less steep slope. The last thing you want is to spin driving up it when it's wet or covered in snow. Would be hard to maintain if it got washboarded.
You have a couple of main choices to make. Cut deep enough to have the track on all virgin material, or strip the topsoil and compact the fill as you go so the track can be partly on the fill also. No problem with either, but don't dump the fill on top of topsoil and just compact the top, it will probably settle and wash out worse. Also depends if you want it luxuriously wide, or inconspicuous as possible. If it's only 150m wide, then you might run the inner drain ditch to each end, instead of the usual way of having pipes at every natural water runoff point, or dips to drain the water every so often. If you'll always have the machines available, even the little tractor, you could put dips in for now and redo later if you come up with pipe. Double wall plastic works too. Rock vs vegetation for the ditches? if you can grow vegetation quickly in that climate, a thick grass sod can work for the ditches if you can establish it before it washes. Fertilizer, seed, water as needed.
as soon as I start slashing (Have to be after the shed goes up) Will definitely share some pics!
haha - couldn't agree more... cheers!
yea, the less steep would be the better... What's the pros/cons of starting at bottom Vs top..? I have more flexibility of where the track would level out at the top, whereas the bottom has to start at a specific point
thanks for these points!
yea with the maps, it's hard to pinpoint an accurate height difference as the location is quite rural. 30m from where the track would start is the average height, and the average grade would be 20' with the crest getting to 30' (on average... I'd skip the steeper places and just make the track longer I reckon...)
My project today. I used a Vermeer 925 My hole I needed a road into is about 75' deep. I ended up with roughly a 30 degree slope.
You can see I started a cut at the top and just started pushing the sand down hill. I didn't quite make the bottom yet, another 10' to go.
perfect advise!!
Way easier pushing downhill than uphill. You can dig material, dump it on top and dig some more going downhill. Going uphill you pretty much have to completely remove the material to progress forward. Machine has to work a lot harder going uphill. You could do a little at the bottom just to establish where you need to end up.
With an excavator it doesn't really matter if you make a road going up or down. Start at the end with the easiest access so you can get to the machine with a Ute incase of breakdown or refuelling if you are going to leave it on site and if the weather turns to **** you can get it off site .
that's a lot of dirt! did you do it all with that small machine pictured...?
needed to hear this - thanks!
Yes, close to 10 hours.
As others have said, can you send some pics? And can you get hold of a rotary laser level?
A lazer is spoiling the OP. He needs to learn how to use an eyeometer first.
I don't think you really need a lazer to put in a rural driveway or pathway. You want it so water doesn't collect and it's smooth are the 1st things to think about. Then you need to make sure the base is solid, (packed clay) and put some good material like roadcrush or recycled concrete on it. Apparently the recycled/crushed concrete packs really good with a little moisture. That might be worth looking into for a driveway on a slope.
Impressive
looking forward to it!
yes, hoping to use 30-40mm blue metal stone (if we can afford it..) Crushed material is freaken hard to get down here these days. whether it's recycled concrete, slag, sandstone, whatever. La Nina brought in a heckof a LOT of wet and floods last two years. EVERYONE wants material for their driveways getting washed out.
great photos! and damn impressive you did all that with that tiny stand-on machine..! Is that just loamy soil, with clay deeper...? Any rain as you worked? How's the finished job look? I'll try and get some photos up for this thread soon!
It is almost all sand here in FL. This area used to be mined, so there was some phosphates I hit at one point. It rained most of one day. It made the sand heavier but worked well to control dust.
To get the best grade , is one that is one grade from the top the bottom, back in NZ I always found the old SHEEP had found the easiest grade up a hill and if U followed their track U had the best grade U could get. Spent many yrs on dozers doing farm tracks and access roads on properties.
Some pics of an access road I did back in the early 80s, the middle pic in the last pic is the finished road, 10.5 mts wide & 20 mts of fill over the pipes. All done by eye, no plans and no levels, took about 3 mths.
Renners?
Nice pics and good plan on following the animals. I bet that works a good part of the time.
Yep it was, up at Merrick Rd Pyes Pa.
incredible photos... My naivety could be in full swing here - but am I right in assuming you literally carved that track down through what was once a ridge line? That's a helluva height difference if so...
Looks exactly like what I did on a FAR GRANDER scale. I am a little jealous.
Thanks for your patience those who asked - I've finally managed to get some rough photos sorted, and even a rough bit of drone vision... These were taken off some footage I already had, so apologies that it's not the best in terms of where id rather the camera be shooting from... Have a look if you like anyway (and let me know if any issues as first time trying to upload here) and cheers in advance for those who can make sense of what i've cobbled together here. Hoping you can pause and zoom in where you may want to for perspective with the drone vision. If anyone would like more photos/vids let me know and I'll make some time to do your questions a due justice! (I'm currently laid up with a spasming back..!) Thanks everyone again - Appreciate your time and hard-won experience! Pretty awesome that such can be shared like this from around the world... I do not take that, and your experience/efforts lightly! Legend of Coloured marks for 2nd Photo: Red - hill area Yellow - grade is at 30' or above Blue - Bottom Start + possible Finish locations Purple - current proposed (by me) 2WD access track route (Would only make one) Aqua - Natural route of water/rain flow
and actually now that I look at it... The yellow 30' grade should extend quite a bit lower down the hill...
Can the track that ends where the digger is sitting be rerouted to the right a bit thus transecting only one water course? I’ve got numerous creeks on my farm that I have to fix every winter due to washouts, if I could avoid them I wouldn’t hesitate.
@Lagwagon how I see that picture, every bit you move the end point to the right it involves a bigger grade change. Let's see if Guy comes back and confirms, but it looks like the bottom of the slope, slopes to the right too. I get that from the pond placement. That might be why he chooses that end? EDIT: Guy if I were free to travel I'd come give you a hand. That looks like beautiful country.
Yep, ill be wanting to choose a route that crosses the least amount of natural water travel! But the start/finish/bottom of the track has to be where that blue dot is
bottom of slope from digger to the right is pretty uniform, but yes since it slopes up sharply towards the top, the greater length the betterer haha. Thanks mate! we definitely feel damn grateful to be here...
Good to know makes sense too!
Hey there legends... been a while! I've been busy in the digger in the past year and a bit more - Think I'm finally ready to attack that hillside I mentioned alllll those months ago - here's three photos of my rough plan with colours to help differentiate: Aqua: rough direction of two tracks (see previous pics for whole Hill!) Dark blue: drainage ditch Red: potential concrete pipe from drainage trench into larger causeway (may use sandstone rocks instead in an open causeway as that's what I'll line the drainage trench with up the hill). I'll cut the top track so it drains back in to the uphill side and the bottom track I'll just camber it slightly towards downhill as the cross fall is not much and most of the groundwater (I think) will be caught by the top track. If I put the same type of drainage trench in for the bottom track I then have to deal with where it would meet back at that bridge. Not impossible but more work I may not HAVE to do. Any thoughts, advice, questions, or 'rules-of-thumb' to stick by? Hope you're all well and getting stuck in to whichever project you're on to! Cheers ✌️
First rule of thumb- don't cut the cross fall to the outside of the track, go the other way so it drains into the table drain. You're are in a high rainfall area so some Whoa Buoys is a good idea so check out the Forestry NSW web site for these. They have a great idea of making them out of old conveyer belt so there's no humps. First time I saw them was on the Far South Coast NSW , reckoned they were the ducks guts. I understand that photos make terrain look flat but that looks almost as flat as a ***** carters hat.
Tones!! One too many "u"'s...it is Whoa Boy...not buoy. I went down some rabbit holes and finally parsed it out. Good info. https://wildlife.lowecol.com.au/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/Whoa-Boy-Construction.pdf
Whoa Boy.... I've called those swalles. Po-ta-toe
yea those slopes have BIIIG pucker factor... especially in the wet... actually thats what its taken me so long to start. this valley is Sth facing so its lush topoil is rarely not moist! Then again, if I can get my gradient right, the clay found in the hill under the soil is perrrrfect for taking 30-40mm blue metal when the clay is a bit moist. but I want to get my drainage plan down andf execute it well so it's a do-it-well-do-it-once job. Thinking rough sandstone bush rock for the drainage trench/s (dark blue). I won't use woah-boys as we want to keep the track aesthetically nice (even though can't fault the functionality of them!). If the road/s are cut to a % so they fall back in to the hillside, shouldn't be much to worry about with the trech taking all groundwater that comes down, especially with sandstone bushrocks lining it, lomandra and vegetation planted out along it, and blue metal of an appropriate size (30-40mm?) sealed down in the moist clay surface. Have found that to be the case so far on other tracks here anyway... But Always room to learn more! ...Any tips on how to marry the drain trenches in to that main causeway? especially where peak rainfall events are concerned, and that lower access track I'd have to get fiddley with pipes under the road hey..? Cheers!
thanks for the link! Thought whoah boy WAS specifically the conveyor belt! understand better now.
I sent a link to Scrub Puller years ago on how to build them without having any humps so it could be still there. Basically you dig a narrow trench across the road about 300mm deep, then with a length of rubber mat and 500mm wide place in the trench on edge, 100mm protruding and the other side of 100mm lying in the bottom of the trench. the vertical bit should be against the uphill wall then back fill and compact the trench. The beauty of this, as traffic passes over the rubber lays down and stands up afterwards and used conveyor belt is almost a give away at your local quarry. I've looked on the Forestry NSW but couldn't find the build diagrams but seem to have been deleted
Where abouts are you mate? We're just 1hr nth of Syd. In the 2 years its been since I started this thread (2 years!) I have got a lot more experience working on the property (had a LOT of other jobs take priority...) which is nice to now know. But that said I still want to go carefully up this job - especialaly building it appropriately for longevity in the face of peak rainfall events...! I have some updated drone vision Ive linked here: And while i'm at it ill re-upload a few screenshots of it overlayed with some drawings showing what updated route info i've been piecing together in my head... Colour legend: Dark Blue - Natural Water flow (Main causeway/dam overflow that runs behind cottage is only 'proposed' at this stage... No idea if it's viable yet... Thoughts?) Aqua - T1 & L1 ( "Top Route" 1 & "Lower Route" 1 are most likely what I'm currently planning to cut...) Yellow - T2 'Alternate Top route' (Is this straight even possible over the 133m in length? Height to traverse is 20m, with that steep hump in the middle to add to complexity) Red - Defines in and/or along it's borders steep area/s of hillside (40-50 degrees) Orange - Current Bridge, and two proposed pipes Purple - T3 'Alternate Top Route' (Would require sculpting out a hair-pin turn right after the bridge, This possible route would have to end turning around and following up the ridge that meets the gully behind the cottage. On all 3 possible "Top Routes" I imagine I'll have to incorporate some sort of 'sump' that takes the water flow volume and each of their respective velocities off it's drainage trench via pipes and then have to empty (with enough smart design that's appropriate) into the main causeway... It's these drainage elements that I obviusly need to pay very sharp attention to design wise... The other pipes that would cross T1 and L1 routes further along their hillside I imagine are relatively easy to put in. I've done a few of those already using bushrock for headwalls and outflows. Looks great too! cheers again to you all @Lagwagon @R.D.G013 @ianjoub @Tones @Welder Dave @Stephen Doyle and anyone else for sharing your experince and feedback! Hope this thread can help other newbies too. Guy
About an hour south of Seattle
I'm about 8hrs North of you by road. Does my bid win?
Another option might be to cut the road falling to the outside, say 3 or 4%. This way the road is shedding water evenly right from the start, rather than collecting more and more as it moves down the hillside, especially if you aren't using whoa boys.
Bit of a distance from Syd, Australia!
Out slope vs In slope If it's a low use road and likely to not be well maintained I generally out slope. However, you must also consider how good your fill is on the down hill side (to take the run off) and/or the ability to get it seeded quickly. Out sloped is not as good if you have a lot of surface water coming down the hill from above. Also it can be more treacherous to travel in slick conditions like mud or snow. Only culverts needed would be where water is actively trying to cross the road. In sloped roads will require a good ditch along the uphill side, a flat bottom ditch ~2-3' wide is best, but often not practical in steep country, a V ditch will work but is more likely to erode. With an in sloped road you'll need culverts crossing the road every 100-200' to take the water away, as well as at any seep/spring/stream. They should ideally extend all the way through the fill and discharge on virgin ground below the road. Ditches and culverts will require continued maintenance but make for a better road. Third, possibly the best option, is a crowned road. It'll shed the water fastest and keep the road surface in better shape. It will need the considerations of both and in slope and out slope road, (good fill/seeding, ditches, culverts). In any situation you should put in broad base dips where possible, they are a good way to divert any water following the road surface away. At the very least install a broad base dip at the top of the hill to catch any water before it starts down the road.
Appreciate this level of detail in you reply - cheers!
The thread is two years old. I plan to be there in two more years. Just hold on a minute.
See you in four! should of started this job by then.....!
Pity you can't do the trip next year. Easter is the last Wheels at Wanaka show In NZ with all the old cars,trucks, farm equipment including traction engines and earthmoving gear. You'd like it and it's only a 2hr flight to jump the ditch to Oz.
I did not know it was ending. Crap! my trip was to start there at wheels or wings, Either one is good.
The wheels site has gone to developers unfortunately and no other land is available. Wings in 2yrs.
Just finished gravelling a section of road on private property for a client. Mostly cut to the outside at 4%. Believe it or not, he brings loaded B triple cattle trucks up this hill.
How long is the access? Grader and pozzie track job? looks damn tidy!
His access is 10 km in total but we’ve just gravelled the most challenging sections, about 2km, and graded the rest. We use a grader to mix water into the gravel and lay it out then hit it with a vibrating roller. The grader has grade control which makes it easy to cut an accurate cross slope.
well done good looking product.
We tried getting a grader here for our 2km driveway - it got bogged...! Doing the access road up that hill with only a digger.