Hello everyone, here is my new ride, Cat 150 AWD, replaced my 140H.
Looks like a 140 with all wheel drive. The head grader instructor from the Operating Engineers training center really likes the 140 with conventional controls. Had the same kind of end bits and they both broke in under 150 hours. May want to keep an eye on them. I picked up the broken piece and it was like new. Maybe the overhang is the problem?
The 150 is a renamed 140m3, got rid of the primitive straight blades using stingers blades, I personally prefer them over any other blades, my roads are all done with stinger blades, the new 140 is a nice machine, I would have took one of them in a heartbeat, to bad they wouldn't put the updated cab on them found on the new 120.
The operator didn't like the M series as much for fine finish work. The 140 was loaded and cost around 500K!
M series graders I find you are always correcting a steering action, their steering system is good for grading where it is quick to position you but you will find you will half to do it twice most times, I would think that would get on your nerves fine grading.
The steering sensitivity to joystick input can be adjusted if I am not mistaken.
I'm not sure Nige, I know that Cat has down loaded new steering software in our older 140m a few times, do you mean I can adjust the steering in the onboard systems computer screen?
AFAIK yes. Let me have a look at the O&M Manual. EDIT: O&M not clear. Try going into the Operator Monitor, either the Settings Menu which includes a section on "Implements" (which will include steering because it works through the Implement ECM). if that fails try the Service Menu which includes a "Configurations" section. Failing all that, ask the dealer. There also ought to be a parameter for something like "Implement system sensitivity" with three adjustments. From memory I think they are Normal, Coarse, & Fine. I'm not sure if that also affects the steering response to the joystick. Also the steering is speed-sensitive. In other words the maximum steer angle and how much movement of the front wheels you will get in response to a certain amount of joystick movement will reduce as the machine ground speed increases.
I will have a look for sure, the blade has the coarse, normal and fine modes for sure, what ever mode you use you could be right may affect the steering response, I like the fine mode in the older M, the Cat rep when he went over the 150 machine never mentioned different modes for the steering other than the updated steering software, with our 2008 M and one of our 2018/ 2019 140m3's that I used last year the Cat guy said at the demo for it I would find a big difference in the steering between the two where the newer 140m3 would be so much better than the 2008 M, I did not find any difference if anything the 2008 was better.
Can you share a picture of the controls please ?
Some of the options that are on this new 150, the auto articulation feature, apparently its only a 500hr demo for this machine and most, after 500 hrs Cat removes it and you have to pay extra to keep it, which is ******** on Cats part, you pay big money for these machines if it has that option it should stay part of the machine, trans mode, you can program the gear you want to start out in and reverse in, this option was there on the 2008 models also I am told, 2F and 2R would be my setting, forward and reverse mode, as a example, if you were cleaning a intersection you can simply click from forward to reverse and back to forward without stopping, you must maintain even throttle ( right to the pin) and click the gear selector quickly, 2and 2 trans settings work the best, the software in the computer makes for a even transition from forward to reverse for you, this option was on the first M 's also, AWD mode, just turning this mode on I gain 50 more ponies on the 150, you can run it at 100% which is even pull front and rear on the wheels and turn around easily where one front wheel will slow down and the other will speed up to make the turn smoothly, nice feature, you can also speed up the front wheels or slow them down, also you can pull the machine with just the front wheels up to 8kmh down to creep mode of just 1kmh, running your front wheels at a higher or slower speed than your rears for any amount of time will heat up your Hyd fluid very quickly, so running it in the 100% mode is the best, I did a bit of cutting on a hard road as a trial in AWD mode and found when I put pressure down on the blade it took traction away from the front wheels and they just spun the machine sideways, I tried this two or three times but I was using the primitive straight blades, interested in what she will do with stinger blades, ditching in AWD will be great I think, a lot better in the softer stuff and it may get me in a heap of trouble too, looking forward to running this machine, but I will sure miss my 140H, just short of 14000 hrs seat time, engine never touched.
I will snap a few pictures of the controls and AWD controls.
The machine appears to have snow tires and I don't see a wing or a plow. Is any of that stuff going to be installed later on. Over here I usually see a ripper on a machine going to be used for construction. The all wheel drive units I have experience with were 143 models. I don't recall that steering response could be changed by the operator but there were so many changes in the M over time. I do remember that the factory changes slowed the steering down automatically as the machine gained speed down the road.
Congrats on the new machine!!!! Look forward to future reports. Thanks for starting the thread!!!
Yes that is correct, as you gain speed the steering response slows, yes, the plow gear will be installed this fall, we usually receive our machines fully geared with the plow gear but if we waited for Craig to install it today it would have been a while till we would have received the machine, like late summer, yes it has the Michelin snow pro's I think there called, most of our graders use them, great tires in snow and ice, we haven't used a ripper or scarifiers sense the old days, these new grader hands can't operate a grader and a ripper and text at the same time, should have gotten rid of their the cell phone instead of the scarifiers. thanks
Thanks Ovrszd, I will mention that this new 150AWD has blade control with the new advanced joysticks offered by Cat, I will be messing around with it a bit, not sure if it will work in my application, but I am always a bit negative when trying something new.
The government graders here in NB leave their winter tires on all year as well. The City bought a new Volvo a few years ago with an awesome rear mount ripper scarifier combo. The only time it sees the ground is when the machine is parked. I'd trade him for my mid mount scarifier any time. I noticed that their wing mounts to the ripper. Nova Scotia getting all Cats, or just your county?
I think Cat was awarded the contract for our province for the DOT for 5 years as far as I know, its to bad Deere makes a nice grader also.
Yeah, I think Deere must be replacing NB's fleet of aging 720 Champions. The district garage has here a Volvo, but I noticed a few new Deere around at other service districts. There was talk of contracting out more DOT stuff. Miller does a lot of winter road maintainance around the out skirts of Moncton, but I figured they were just looking after the toll road that has no tolls. I know they have been using consultants for some road building contracts
Deere and Cat have been in the grader wars here in Washington State and Montana for years. The dealers keep racing each other to the bottom of the price lists to get the multiple machine deals with guaranteed buy backs at three or five years and 3,000 hours on the meters. The dealer for Washington and Montana is showing 48 used machines for sale just because of the continued buy backs from the states and counties. The two manufacturers have comparable machines now and anyone who doesn't deal with both sets of dealers and put them in the meat grinder price wars is not providing their tax payers with the best use for their tax money.
Dexters is plowing alot of our divided highways now, when DOT hires the private sector to do work than upper management at the DOT and politicians are not held accountable anymore, that's why the push for hiring the private sector, but taxpayers suffer big time with the cost, at one time DOT did everything from paving to road building, now the private sector does it all mostly.
We have alot of older deere's and volvo in our shops with a few champions, seen a straight frame champion last year in one of our sister shops being used everyday, lots of older g cats to, were slowly upgrading, most shops have a newer m series in there shop now, we usually hang on to our machines for 10 years plus.
Yeah, Dexters is slowly pushing it's way here. Municipal group bought out all the garbage collection companies. They had a crew come here and gravel the parking lot of one of their yards. They did buy the material from us, but brought their own guys to do it. They bid on every job in the area, but bid really high. Not sure if this is a tactic or what.
I heard Irving is behind Dexters on the sly.
Here are some pics of the advanced joystick controls that Cat is offering on my 150AWD, the extra controls on the joysticks is for the blade control, also can be used for your snow wing control with the right software downloaded, and a picture of the AWD activation controls.
Careful, they're watching. Went and did some grading for a tennis court at his private lake the other year. The caretakers cottage was more than I could afford.
You helped pay for that, I did to, LOL
the controls on the 150 are the same as the ones on the 2016 12m i operate supposely the first in australia with these . mine are used for acci grade and gps when connected , a good setup when you get the hang of it. does the grader have the stable grade system on it ? its a sensor on the frame near the rippers , when you get blade bounce [ going too fast] it cuts the revs to stop bounce ,settings can be varied. we turned it off just get out of the throttle till it smooths out , another gadget for steering stick attendants cheers.
My first day out in my new 150 AWD, WELL, WELL, WELL, Had a ignition failure for the regen system within the first hour of use, Cat service guy figures its either a coil or a wire, they have a coil in stock so he will try that in the morning, I will give Cat the benefit of the doubt before I start A CAT 150 DOWN THREAD, Hoping its could just be a fluke.
This 150 does not have stable blade but is plumed for GPS, it has the blade control with the new advanced controls that Cat is promoting here, I guess they are not so new and advanced as they are selling us on here. thanks
Congrats on the new machine is it equipped with an auto greaser? Also what are the boxes on the side of the A frame I have a 2016 and 2017 140M3 they have the grade control on them I use it sometimes but I like running it myself.
Thank you, the box you are talking about is just in front of the circle, I think that's what you mean, That is a chain rack with a lid that folds down over it, it is not there anymore that's another story, yes it has the auto greaser, 140m3 AWD is the same as the 150AWD just renamed, I haven't tried the blade control, i'm like you I like doing it myself, I will try it after awhile on a road that has lots of gravel, but they are few a far between here.
Well Cat guy arrived this morning and replaced the coil, no luck, so he figures its the coil wire, his buddy that works for Cat in another area had the same problem and it was the wire, so 4 days to get one, Cat guy said to run it, soot level was at 20% on the filter this morning when I left, He said When you hit 70% on the filter you will get the alarms and more lights and warnings, he figures he will have the wire by then.
Well here's a update, Cat mobile arrived with a new coil wire and spark plug, no luck, still showing the codes, now the engine has de-rated itself and is in lock out engine shut down mode, Cat thinks its a broken wire or plug pin somewhere knocked out of place, so our brand new Cat 150AWD sits on the floor broken, 35 hours on the meter, 12hrs in on meter when this all started happening, sell the machine fix it in the field is Cats motto, this is the most busiest time of year for us trying to get our roads recovered and crowned up then sprayed, hard to believe you pay half a million dollars for a machine and you can't get a week out of it, When I was at the demo for this machine Cat left the impression that these new M series machines are the next best thing sense sliced bread, I miss my 140H it was so reliable, why Can't Cat build Quality and dependability like the H series? what Happened? The 150 is a nice machine with lots of tech and thought put behind operator comfort and ease of use and ergonomics, but their engines and electronics have way to many bugs and failures, I would not want to own a m series and depend on one, I would go bankrupt. There's my Rant for today.
Cat should be giving you a working loaner ASAP for as long as you need.
I guess Cat is hoping for a easy fix with my machine, with our department Cat just overlooks downtime with us it seems, if it takes a month to fix it or get a part, it takes a month, nothing ever said and no loaner machine, they have none, their loaners are all loaned out, Huge Private sector construction companies, a completely different story for Cat, if a new Cat product is down for more than 6 hrs on a worksite where its needed, MAJOR PROBLEM!!! and Cat better come good pronto!! Cat mobiles are run right off their feet, the Cat mobile that was working at our machine had 30 calls he told me that day for repairs on work sites. Cat is having alot of troubles it seems, not sure about Deere, or Komatsu with any amount of troubles, seem to see more and more of them on work sites lately though.
Update, new Cat mobile showed up today, he ran a series of tests on the machine and system that is having the problem, he replaced the coil again only because the his computer system is telling him it to replace the coil, after checking all the wires and plug connectors and the ECM for that system, still having the same problem, he can't clear the codes to do a manual regen where the filter is now at 120%, machine just shuts off in 60 seconds after you start it, he needs to regen to do further tests to find the problem, he is now reaching out to a much bigger network that Cat offers for Help, we have to keep in mind that this machine only has 35 hrs on it, any help or ideas are welcomed, thanks
Would going to Cat corporate to complain be of any help? 35 hours on a 500K machine and they can't get it to work right. Sounds similar to when the Finning here tried to break the union and went with a logistics company to handle parts. They ended up giving one of their biggest customers a credit for the down time that was costing them 250K a day. Sure doesn't help if they expect to sell you anymore machines in the future. Maybe get your salesman to push to get you a machine from somewhere/anywhere to use till they figure it out. Tell the salesman not to bother coming around if he doesn't get you some results. When my dad was unexpectedly let go by his former partner (he worked straight commission) many of his loyal customers told his former partner not to bother sending a salesman around. Some even said right to his former partner when he went directly to some of the bigger customers. My dad sold commercial turf equipment to golf courses, cities, gov'ts., etc. so 250K+ orders were not uncommon. Company was sold and eventually went out of the turf industry. They had about a 75% market share when my dad was part owner and then worked on commission only. My dad sold his half after having a heart attack. Straight commission didn't cost the company anything until a machine was sold.
I feel the Cat mobile is doing all he can, getting the bigger network of Cat involved now starts to raise eyebrows I would think, every thing takes time to get rolling and that support you need, I think the dealership thought this may have been a easy fix, down for a day scenario, once the Cat mobile has to reach out then bigger players get involved, these guys are the ones that approve the warranty claims, not that I am defending Cat in anyway but new machines have bugs too, I just want my new machine fixed ASAP, day three, Here we go again New CAT 150 down
It's an expensive machine. Cat should have been involved as soon as it was determined it wasn't a simple repair. How could it not be covered by warranty?
Well my understanding of how warranty coverage works is that upper level Cat has to approve it, new machine or not, a Cat mobile just can't order a part he thinks he needs, as a example, smaller less expensive parts like a coil he would have some leeway but for him to order and put on a 3-$4000 ECM he would need approval, upper level Cat would need proof that the ECM was the problem and will fix the machine, so its not just cut and dry sort of speak, with my new 150 the mobile is not sure what's going on, so he has reached out to a more broader network for a fix
You are lucky the issues are showing up now and not 10 months down the line. The dealer is the first to decide if something is a warranty situation. They have reams of papers that decide what is and isn't a warranty situation. While this situation is absolutely warrantable, it is also some type of design or workmanship problem that the factory would want to be part of. There are technical people both at the dealer and the factory who brainstorm the problem and try to come to some sort of solution. The dealership could just find and fix the problem and then submit the warranty claim papers to the factory for review and payment. The factory can turn down payment in that situation and the dealer and the customer would then be on the hook for it. Generally what happens now days is that the owner is charged for the repair and required to pay the bill up front to the dealer, the dealer submits all the paperwork and returns the failed parts to the factory who take months to decide whether or not the problem was theirs. They will refund payment to the dealer who then credits the owner's account. What isn't paid at all anymore is travel and mileage. There also may be freight charges that are not covered under a warranty. The upshot of all this is that down time on a new machine is no less likely than down time on an auction unit. The process of handling warranties is being manipulated so the buyer is saddled with more and more of the charges. There are people handling warranties at the dealerships and factories who's job it is to find a way to deny warranty claims.
I totally agree John C, it seems these warranties repairs get caught up and constipated with internal red tape and BS, our warranty on this new 150 is 5 years bumper to bumper, whatever the hell that means, i'm sure there is lots of windows in the fine print for Cat to jump out of for some of the claims, but the fact of the matter is we have a brand new CAT 150 grader with 35hrs on it and its sitting on the floor broke not able to do the work it was bought and paid for, not one mechanic showed up today and not even as much as a phone call to let us no what's happening or if they are coming back, where is the Cat Pride and reliability that Cat promoted when we handed them the money for this machine, Day four, HERE WE GO AGAIN NEW 150 CAT AWD DOWN.
I went through a bunch of garbage getting warranty on my truck. They did the scheduled service and noticed the oil pan and valve covers were leaking. It was getting to be a pretty common problem. They had to order the parts and keep my truck for 2 days. It was over $1000 to do the repair. My warranty was close to expiring but at the time everybody was told to stay home because of covid. I waited until the gov't. eased the covid rules a bit. I was fighting for a couple weeks because my warranty expired (by the date, not the mileage) and they are claiming Ford denied it. I was dealing with a woman who gave me a number to Ford. The service manager was on holidays. Ford was of no help and said my warranty expired (Ford has some stupid computer program that guesses what your mileage is). Looking online I see where there is such a thing where a dealer has discretion and can pay some or all of the costs to fix a loyal customers vehicle. There was name for the program but I forget what it was. I asked this woman about it and she said it was never offered because the dealer isn't part of that program. I called another Ford dealer who said it's available to all Ford dealers but only at the dealer the vehicle was purchased at. She said Ford said no so there's nothing we can do. I asked when the service manager would be back and she said in 2 days. I said I want to speak to him as soon as he gets back. She said she would leave a note. 2 days later I wait till about 4pm and then call to speak with the service manager. He said he never got a message to call me but did see some paper work on my truck. He said it didn't make sense to him why it wouldn't be covered under warranty and would make some calls. I think it was the next day I got message to call him. I called back and got this beatch of a woman on the phone who said it would be covered by warranty(I thought if Ford said no there's nothing the dealer can do). I later talked to the service manager and he said he talked to someone at Ford he's known for years and got it approved right away. After the work was done I called to see when I could pick the truck up. The woman answered the phone which was odd. Every other time I called she was always busy. She said I could pick up the truck anytime in the afternoon and then was trying to take credit for getting it approved for warranty (aren't you happy we got it approved for you). Well, you just lost a customer you unqualified beatch. I'm not trying to bash women, this just happened to be a woman. I would have had the same attitude had it been a man. What a %$#@! ordeal that was. Funny all the police F150's had the repair done under a recall but the general public doesn't get a recall unless it's a safety issue. Leaking oil could certainly be a safety issue if ask me.
Very sad Welder Dave, isn't it stress full how you have to fight tooth and nail to get warranty coverage, when you bought your truck the warranty would have been pushed by the sales men as a selling point.
Absolutely! They didn't want to send it to a body shop because it had a deep scratch when I went to pick it up. I left it there and they tried to fix it with a touch up pen! It's a black $50,000 cad. truck. I said if it was an appliance it would have 25% knocked off and be put in the scratch and dent area. They claimed they screwed up on my trade in because they thought it was a 4x4 and it wasn't and the body shop would be too expensive. Who cares, that's not my screw up. On a grader in the $500,000 range, Cat/the dealer should be bending over backwards trying to help you out.
I agree, not sure who is getting bent over though, lol
Who ever pays for your machine is for sure getting bent over. I'd bet if you were a big contractor with 100's of Cat machines you'd have a loaner or even a good trade in from somewhere to use till the 150 gets sorted out. $500K is still a major purchase that Cat should be looking after you. The Cat and JD dealers here show lots of fairly new graders that I assume are trade ins listed for sale.
I believe we bought over ten new graders and 9 backhoe's this past April from Cat, all bought not leased, Cat was awarded to supply us with equipment for the next 5 years, we are a dam good costumer and play a big role for Cat sales and parts for the last 10 years in this province.
I'm sure someone above you is being communicated with. Your sales rep should be catching all kinds of hell right now and he will be all over the service department to get the machine up. You might also mention that this is being monitored by all the people that can be contacted on the internet.
They should be bending over backwards to help you. The sad part is they should for an owner/operator as well. This a vital machine to your operation and there has to be a loaner or something available somewhere. It really gives Cat a bad name. I wonder if there's a clause somewhere in the 5 year contract if you're not satisfied, the contract can be dissolved or modified? If so might give them some more motivation to fix you up ASAP.
I often wonder if Cat ever surfs this forum, if they don't they should, some real world experiences are happening with their gear their selling on this forum.
It might be wake up call. They sure need one on your machine.
There’s an argument to be made here about making payments as opposed to paying everything up front. Tell them the payments will stop until the machine is up and running again or a loaner is supplied. It’s honestly hard to believe one hasn’t been provided already.
A name for the new thread " BOHICA". Sounds like a first nations place but it ain't. Bend Over Here It Comes Again.
Dry
I'm sure that all the manufacturers read anything that shows up on the net. Does it mean anything and do they change anything because of what is printed here? How would anyone know? My point is that it couldn't hurt. Withholding payments will do nothing as financing is always done with either another company or a different part of the organization. I believe there are "Force Majeure" clauses in many contracts that allow for the suspension of payments. I've never seen where a broken down machine counts for that. As far as this event goes, no manufacturer would ignore it. From your point of view nothing is happening, that doesn't mean that the phones are silent all the way up the chain of command. What most people don't know is that sales contracts can be negotiated and modified to the buyer's benefit depending on any leverage they may have. Things like travel time and mileage can be added. Terms on freight charges can also be included. If your company is big enough you might try to add a provision on down time.
Well.. Day 5, no Cat support again today, after calling them this morning wondering what the hell is going on with this machine they replied that parts will be in this afternoon and a mobile will be out tomorrow morning, I now have lost a week of great grading weather to down time, which puts me behind for other projects that were planed, there is a 50/50 chance they get it up and running tomorrow, hopefully with any luck they will, HERE WE GO AGAIN NEW CAT 150 AWD DOWN
Day 6, Cat called this morning said not all the parts showed up so they were not coming today, late into the afternoon Cat Mobile showed up with parts, he replaced the new parts with more new parts, all failed still same codes showing up, no regen, failed ignition, level three shut down, mobile is reaching out to the TC again, This is awful, can't believe this is happening to our area brand new machine, Cat mobile is staying late to try to figure this out, he figures the TC will want him to order more parts which will take us into next week, unless he figures out the problem tonight, HEAR WE GO AGAIN NEW CAT 150 AWD DOWN
There was a bridge job here a few years ago that the contractor was past the deadline and had to pay $10,000/day in late fee's. Maybe Cat should be giving you a credit of a couple thousand dollars a day for the downtime on your new $500K grader that you can't use! If other municipalities or construction outfits here of this could make them think twice about purchasing a Cat grader(s) or other Cat machines. I think it's close to the point if they can't figure it out soon, they give you another grader that actually works properly.
It doesn't matter who made the machine. The same thing is happening to all the manufactures.
Most would be ticked off if they paid a premium to buy a used machine from a dealer and had these kind of problems right away. How long does it have to be before another machine or at least a loaner is supplied? I feel blessed I have older machines without emissions or electronic crap on them. No wonder older semi trucks are in demand.
The Mobile from Cat didn't figure it out last evening, I guess waiting to here from TC for their instructions, takes time for them to respond, were now into day 7 of a brand new machine sitting on the floor broke, I guess at the shop where my 140H was sent and being used the operator just loves it, none of this emissions crap on her, I sure do miss her, well... see what today brings.
That 150 is fast becoming not fit for purpose
Well... no Cat support again today, waiting on another part again, Cat is saying maybe Monday, I was hoping CAT would have it fixed today ready for me to work first thing Monday morning, no such luck, I am getting to the point now where i'm ready to F#%KING Snap, what is happening with this brand new machine from CAT is completely A Embarrassment to say the least, I will say this, if anybody is considering purchasing a new m series grader or a used m series grader you better think long and hard before handing over the cash to Cat, no matter what the salesmen tells you. HERE WE GO AGAIN NEW CAT 150 AWD DOWN!!
WOW, they should be working around the clock to get you up and running. Just about every other company on the planet sometimes has to work double and triple overtime to get stuff out the door or satisfy their customers time constraints. Would sure be worth looking into modifying the 5 year contract with Cat. Loaner machine supplied with 2 days of a downed machined they can't figure out what's wrong or $$$ penalties for each day after 2 days it's down! Cat really crapped the bed on this one.
I agree, but it seems like Cat just doesn't care anymore, maybe in the US but not here in Atlantic Canada, down time means nothing to them it seems when your a good customer, CAT should have been all over this where this machine is brand new, my family members are in the shipping business that ships product globally every day, can put live product in Japan in 18 hrs, Cat can't get a light bulb shipped to them from their own factory in less than 3 day's, unbelievable, I guess bitching about it won't fix anything, very frustrating though.
Cat needs a wake up call for sure! Your machine should be just as important as anyone else's and you're a pretty big customer. Frustrating is an understatement if there ever was one!!!
To many bean counters at Cat now, place is full of them, and it shows, old school values that Cat was built on don't exist anymore, when my 140h was new back in 2007 had a problem with the tranny after using it for a month, Cat came to look at it and within a day a new loaner machine was there where my 140 was going back to Cat for repairs, now that was the Cat pride and service, this is what sold me on Cat, today... it seems they couldn't care less, its three hours for the Cat mobile to come to the shop, you would think the reps at Toromont Cat would just give him all the parts he feels he needs to fix this new machine, instead they order 2 out of 10 parts he needs make him fill out paperwork that those parts didn't work and make him run back and forth for days, 7 going on 8 days to be exact.
It's something you'd expect from a shady dealer selling overseas junk. Toromont is a big dealer so it's even more surprising.
Talking about bean counters and no common sense, our department is full of them to, here's a good one for ya, our main repair shop for our province this is where all the new gear goes first to be inspected and fitted with extra gear, a piece of equipment that was being fixed out in the yard had a hose bust and oil spilled on the ground, not common but happens from time to time, as the mech was cleaning it up a bean counter walked over and seen the leak and blew a gasket, now the rule is that any machine that comes through the gates for repairs has to be completely drained of ALL fluids before coming into the yard, now the problem is there dragging gear of the float with the big yard loader and a chain, a D8 Dozer came to there shop for bushing work and they can't drag it off it has no fluids in it, LOL, this is the world we live in now, bean counters may be smart but not one lick of common sense. LOL
Sounds like you have more problems than Caterpillar does.
I would guess it won't be long till that policy is reversed. All it takes is one machine is down because it needs fluids or draining the fluids causes problems with having to remove air or bleeding everything properly. How are they going to store all the drained fluids so they don't get contaminated. Where are they drained and refilled? There's stupid and then there's insane.
Not sure if they reversed the policy yet, I guess the guy was just trying to save the environment, never thought it through
We all have problems, we are far from perfect for sure, doesn't hurt to have a chuckle about things every now and then though.
If you read my thread about our machine two years ago you already know most of the story. I'll regenerate for those that might not have. We had several "technical" problems. None of which prevented use of the machine. Just computer crap. We were never without the machine. It just threw repeated codes. We threatened to give the machine back at day 29. Then everyone's tone changed. We were talked to in "legal terminology". "Richard, I understand your frustration, we will fix your machine". I was told that five times in a one minute conversation with the Dealership General Manager. After a year the machine only had one problem remaining. At two years it still has that problem. No "Delayed Shutdown" feature. We are simply living with it. Again, I want to reinforce, this machine was always available for work. Has never mechanically failed in any manner. Now, in regards to your situation. Very similar to what I went thru. The JD Service Tech that worked on our machine 8 times was excellent. As has been stated in this discussion, the Tech's hands are tied. They have to contact CAT/JD to replace anything. They are at the mercy of CAT/JD to make a decision and send whatever parts they deem necessary. As in this case, I got a new trans shifter, new rear lights, and a new PCM. None of those things fixed our problems. Computer downloads directly to the machine finally fixed it. Some comments have been made in regards to what CAT "should" be doing. Rest assured CAT is doing everything they know to do. They are absolutely shooting in the dark. They've already replaced several parts in a shotgun attempt to stumble onto the problem. Sadly, that's the world of technology we all live in. No one involved today knows how to fix this machine. No one involved today would make any bets on a date to have it fixed. As someone mentioned, this is common amongst all brands. We had our previous machine 8 years and JD hadn't saw it since the day they delivered it. Not a single problem. The most gadgetry and whizz bang technology that is added, the more the chance of failure increases. The inevitable crash of this machine could be seen when the problem of regen was mentioned. The computer will protect the engine and it's components in regards to regen. It's at critical level now which is why the machine will only run however many seconds it takes the computer to run diagnostics and realize the problem is still there, then automatic shutdown occurs. It has taken me a year to become comfortable with our machine. I don't have apprehension about it coding anymore. We normally trade every 4 years. We own this machine without debt. We will trade it at or before 4 years. We don't have long term faith in it. Problem will be, what to buy that's any better?
Thanks for posting that, I'm always interested in what other operators are running for machines especially new ones, and there problems they have and how their dealer looks after them, glad you could still run the machine with the codes you had, I run my new machine for about 3 days till it hit level three on the filter without regen, the CAT mobile said to still run it when the warning light came on, I guess he thought it would be a easy fix, going on day 8 sitting on the floor, i'm running behind big time with this great weather we are having, like you said the mobile is great and he is getting frustrated also, hopefully this gets resolved on Monday.
WELL... here's a update, going on Day 9 HERE WE GO AGAIN NEW CAT 150 DOWN !!!
Since you are getting the silent treatment I think they are stalled. A group of IT guys are debating over their Latte coffees what they should throw at it next..... The part about these things that aggravate me the most is the IT guys are the highest paid in the production system. The dirty hands guys don't have a chance of success if IT failed their part.... Edit: IT translates to computer geeks....
LOL, Cat guy was here today, he put on a new regen head, didn't work, TC is saying replace ECM now, Cat mobile will be back again tomorrow with a new ECM if it comes in, could be 3 more days till it gets here, he's hoping they fly it in tonight from Quebec, in the name of god, this dam well better fix it.
Update, well a new ECM worked, the problem is resolved, finally! the machine passed all its test and is now regening properly, so I am good to go after 9 days of trouble shooting my new machine, will this be the last problem? NEW CAT 150 AWD RUNNING.
Hoping it's trouble free for thousands of hours. Cat should be giving a parts credit or something for all the down time.
Wait until you get a new $2+m haul truck with 125 hours on the clock sh1ts a $100k final drive. Diagnosis wasn't hard, the big crack in the casing and the pool of oil on the floor was kind of a giveaway. Problem was that the nearest available wheel group was in Melbourne Australia where the machine was on the North Coast of S America. Not too many air cargo flights to & from I can tell you. Low hour component failure like that is known in the trade as "infant mortality".
It got bad when Hewitt took Atlantic's autonomy, and worse when Toromont took over Hewitt. It's publicly held as opposed to privately owned, and has to show a profit. Very little kept in stock.
Well i'm glad the dam thing is running, Dartmouth Cat in NS Canada is the main hub for all of NS, their warehouse has limited stock, alot of their parts are shipped out of Quebec 2-3 day wait, this ECM that was put on my machine today was robbed from one of our other new Cat graders sitting at our depot out side Dartmouth NS, would have had to wait another day or two for the new one to come out of Quebec, funny on the back of the ECU said made in Poland, I was also told today that my machine when it came of the lot has to go through a systems tests to make sure everything is working as it should before handing it over to their customer, apparently my machine failed one of the tests, Cat simply canceled the code and sold us the machine without fixing it first, it took 11 hrs for the code to reappear, pretty sleezy move, just like that Rep told me, Cats motto sell the machine fix it in the field, I couldn't imagine a private contractor buying this machine with confidence counting on it to do a job he had to have done in a certain time frame without being penalized.
Sleezy? It should be illegal for an OEM to erase an error code on a brand new machine without fixing the problem and now another of your new graders is down. Hopefully you can renegotiate your deal with Cat. I'd sure be leery buying anymore machines from Cat.
They say a honest man would starve to death in NS.
Had my machine out today, everything seemed to work good, no red warning lights which is nice, the engine seem to have a little more snort today where it wasn't derated which was also welcomed, hopefully that will be its only bugs.
That's a step up IMHO. The last one I looked at was stamped "Made in Mexico". Having worked around Poles before I know which one I'd rather have.
That's good to know Nige, the Mexico stuff seem to have glitches for sure. wonder why Cat can't build there own in the good ole USA.
One word, cost
Like most products, it's made overseas or in a different country but they still it for the same price as if it were made in the USA. No such thing as passing the savings on to the customer. It's all about higher margins.
I have another word - taxes. How often do you hear in the media of high-profile multinationals such as Amazon paying no tax on their operations in Europe or elsewhere.? All done by accounting. I’m sure Cat is just the same, you just don’t hear about it. In the way of balanced comment let me point out that the truck final drive I mentioned above was made in the USA, and it failed just the same as your Polish ECM. **** happens, it’s just unfortunate that it happened on your machine.
Oh yes, country of manufacture is no guarantee of quality. There's always talk of not to buy things made on Monday or Friday. Some little step is missed or someone's in a hurry and the customer is the one that suffers.
Ours was a similar experience with Deere. It left the assembly plant with four oil leaks and two active codes in the computer. Then the worst part. It left the dealership with the same issues and the "caution" light on. When I crawled in the cab it was broke down. That rubbed me raw. I expect my dealership to protect me from poor quality control at the assembly plant. Everyone simply passed it on...... Glad you are running. Hope this is the end of problems. Will take you awhile to build confidence in the machine but hopefully it will come.
With all due respect I think it's more the law of averages. If X thousand identical components are manufactured it's logical to expect that, despite all the quality control in the world, a small percentage of them will turn out bad at low hours (the aforementioned "infant mortality") despite passing all relevant QC controls during manufacture. IMO that's what happened here. Let's face it the machine was working right when it was originally delivered to the customer.
If what was told to me is true about Cat just erasing the code and sold us the machine, this was 1 in ten machines we bought, I just happen to get that one in our area, but two wrongs don't make it right, this ECM issue should have been addressed when Cat found it while doing the systems check BEFORE it comes to the customer, and yes we do have a 5 year bumper to bumper Warranty from Cat on our new 150 but that Warranty does not cover down time costs as far as I know, 9 days downtime for a private small contractor on a new machine he's counting on for a job without a loaner replacement machine, the small contractor would have a hard time recovering and absorbing those losses each day, its very important that buyers have it in writing that where ever you buy your equipment that a loaner machine is made available to you if that new machine you bought is down for more than a day while under warranty.
I agree. Unlike mine which was delivered with problems.
On our JD machine I can find every code it's ever thrown, how many times, hr meter reading first time and last time. As owner/operator I can't delete those. I can't confirm or deny that a JD tech can or cannot erase those. My Tech has told me he can find all of them. I guess if you go high enough up the food chain you'll get to someone that can truly erase the codes. A computer geek once told me the memory is seven layers deep. I agree with you that deception doesn't correct this. If it coded before it left the assembly plant or dealership and a coverup was initiated it's wrong. My guys were too lazy to deceive anyone so they just delivered it with codes active.....
Ovrszd, its hard to believe these actions go on by big name dealerships, just sell the machine fix it in the field, you lay a half a million bucks down on a machine you want it to work trouble free for more then 12 hours, that's when my warning light come on, your salesman for your new machine must of had dark sunglass and a white cane to miss those problems, unbelievable.
I don't know about heavy equipment but most cars and motorcycle dealers charge for pre delivery inspection and set up. I thought this is to ensure you get a proper functioning vehicle and anything missed or wrong from the factory is corrected. I get with large numbers of the same parts or components there can be a few lemons but that's not case here. Cat erased a code to deliver the machine and either never informed the dealer or the dealer also let it be delivered knowing it threw a code. It shouldn't happen on a 10K motorcycle and certainly shouldn't happen on a 500K machine.
In my experience, dealer pre-delivery inspections are a joke. 400K combines with air intake clamps loose, hydraulic leaks, wiring not properly secured in loom clamps, and my personal favorite, an incorrectly assembled deutsch connector on the pigtail for the spreader speed senor. Moved a combine 500 miles to find out the separator wouldn't run for more than 10 seconds without throwing a code.
The Cat dealers have been written out of any pre-delivery inspections for years. Cat won't pay it and my local dealer won't do them without getting paid for it be someone. Cat says the machines are ready when they get to the dealer. I will also say that is is not just Cat. I have many horror stories that I can't talk about in the current time frame that are going on right now. Everyone talks about finding good people who provide top notch work. Does anyone really think that doesn't apply to factories as well?
Japan made the N. American auto makers step up their game and improve quality. They also design and/or build most of the major brands of excavators. I wonder if Komatsu and Hitachi are as bad for quality control as Cat and apparently JD are with some machines? Cat is a huge company but there's the old saying, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. If it's industry wide with all brands, no wonder some operations are keeping their older machines longer. GM is huge and took a bailout as did Chrysler. Bucyrus Erie filed for bankruptcy protection and they were huge too. Wonder what would happen if Cat was in that position?
Blah, Blah, Blah
So where's your horror stories? You're the most important witness before a judge and you're sworn to secrecy? Give it a rest, I made a legitimate post!
Well I for one am not losing sleep over Cat going out of business because of bad quality control. Why do you think they are any worse than the other OEMs or bad at all for that matter ? They sell as many of most models as all other OEMs together and you hear a few stories on the internet. A failed ECM can be a hard one to TS, a broken end bit on another grader and some 299D issues ? Does this make them terrible ?
Not at all, Cat builds a damn good machine, very strong, but their engines and electronics are troublesome, sometimes its technology that can be the problem, the more tech while is great and can help a operator on your machine, the more that can go wrong and shut you down, this is the way of the world now and how machines are built today and its here to stay, sorry.. i'm just old school with old school values I guess, use to older and more reliable dino tech, I guess we shouldn't expect so much out of a half million dollar machine.
Adjoining Township to me is trading machines. CAT brought a 140M AWD for a demo. I stopped to look it over. I crawled in the cab and shut the left side door. Something didn't feel right. I thought I just didn't slam it hard enough. Opened and slammed it shut. Still not right. Looked down at the bottom of the door. I could see daylight between the seal and the cab floor. Got out and slammed the door. I could stick all four fingers between the seal and the cab clear to my knuckles. The operator disliked the machine and said it was gutless compared to their Tier 3 140M. They sent it back and are waiting for a cost estimate to trade into the 150M AWD. I read the specs and found the 140M AWD is less HP and Torque than the 672G AWD Deere. To get matched power you have to step up to the 150M. To get matched power to a 7 series JD you have to step up to a 160M CAT. Another thing I found confusing. The CAT salesman told them the HP changes whether you have the AWD engaged or not. He claimed it boosts 20HP when using AWD. Is that true? I find nothing in their stats that indicate this. JD does not. Power in both brands varies dependent on what gear is selected. But no indication of a boost in AWD. Can someone confirm or deny this?
I think this about says it all. Bob
You should be thanking me for hooking you two up. Now get a room already! It's easy for anybody to take something out of context. My gut is still hurting from DCEP means direct current either polarity. Even your new buddy is probably shaking his head over that. .
Our JD dealer charges us $500 for pre delivery inspection. 15 years ago we bought a machine directly from the factory. It was going to truck by our town on it's way to the dealership. The salesman intercepted and had it delivered to our town saving us the $500. The Service Manager bitched to the General Manager that he was being cut out. That didn't happen again. Edit: I should add, one of the oil leaks our machine had was a fitting on the Trans Filter head. 3" from the leak the PDI tech at the dealership had written his inspection of that head during PDI. What the Hell....
As far as I know when you engage the AWD in my 150 machine I gain 50 HP, the CAT Rep said this is what HP I will gain, you can feel the difference in the engine power for sure when cutting a road when I turn on the switch for AWD, the engine wakes up and you can here the turbo spooling.
Thank you for that! In addition to making sure the machine is ready to go to work, who knows what could happen in shipping the machine. Pre delivery inspection should be mandatory like it is with M/C's and cars. The shop foreman should be checking over to make sure the inspection is properly done too. Should be no different than when a dealer does a full assessment of a used machine. Can't have some flunky just checking the boxes off saying everything is good.
Pretty much every bolt on my machine has a paint marker dab on it, so in saying that the machine was pre checked after assembly, systems check at a dealer for the customer should be mandatory and most of the time its done, but if it falls to a IDIOT tech doing the checking, you get a checked machine like I got, I would say that this techs laziness cost Cat about 15 grand when it was all said and done, compared to a $4000 ICM that could have been picked up and easily changed during systems check, I bet nothing was said about it.
I have been around a lot of new machines from various manufacturers that have had teething issues, just as I have been around machines that I have worked on that have had issues from my screw ups. It happens, as long as everyone involved does their best to get it resolved and the same problems don't keep reoccurring that's about all that I can ask. Sometimes we have got loaner machines from the dealer but that is rare. In this case it sounds like the issues should have been resolved before it was delivered but without knowing all the back story it's hard to say.
I wonder why they don't claim that? That's impressive!!!! I'll research that more. I can't believe they don't brag about that!!! If that's the case then you should run with it engaged all the time. You'll have HP between a 14 which is 38 more HP and a 16 which is 90 more HP. Very impressive!!!!
I think the paint dabs would be at the time the bolts were installed. A couple loose fasteners is one thing but clearing a code to deliver a machine is just wrong, especially on a very expensive machine. Great the machine is up running finally but Cat should be offering something for their screw up and your downtime.
My four oil leaks were hydraulic fittings that weren't tightened during assembly. All four of them lacked the paint mark. I think the dealership tech that PDI'd mine simply filled out the form and white penciled the filters as if they were checked.
-I bet the paint marks are from showing it was installed and torqued not someone else checking every bolt and hose on the machine a second time -It is not a dealers job to check every bolt and all 500 hoses for tightness on a PDI. Basic checks like fluids, switch’s, lights, computer setting etc. - Not sure anyone knows the whole story including myself but you say it had 1 hit for a code before delivery. This is not uncommon and if the machine has no active codes during the PDI then the dealer can’t run the machine for hours until it “might” happen again. But for example if it was emissions code then run and quick emissions system test and if it passes move on. - At the end of most Cat TS procedures after everything has been checked it says “ECM May have failed but this is unlikely go through the entire TS process again”. ECM fail quick (like yours) or seem to last years. An inactive code, machine that won’t run more than 30 seconds because of derates and had a failed ECM are about the hardest combination to troubleshoot. Rare that the signs ever even point to a failed ECM. - This is not a order 3 box’s of every electrical part cab to rear grill and replace until fixed kind of deal. Wish it was but not the way the world works. -10 on board computers and thousands of feet of wire and 500 connectors the game has changed. We may think it sounds easy after it’s fixed or that it should have been done this way or that but process and steps are in place for good reason ! Customer, dealer and Cat alike. YMMV
They do. 35 HP https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/CM20131122-77598-21400
I agree, apples/oranges. Although I was disappointed I didn't bitch about the oil leaks as much as I did active codes. If I understood correctly, to get the machine running they robbed an ECM off a different 150 that his organization had just purchased? So as an organization, they still have a machine down....
Thanks for the link!!! I understand there's a 35HP diff between a 150 and a 150AWD. JD is similar. That's not what 20/80 was told and that's not he is experiencing. Flip the AWD on and HP boosts. That's what I had never heard of before. And totally surprised CAT doesn't mention that in any of their data. That's a huge selling benefit. And as I said previously, why not simply run in AWD all the time to take advantage of that HP gain?
You would think hyd. fittings should have the paint dabs. Regardless the reason(s) a code was cleared on the OP's machine and the machine was down after only 35 hours related to that code. That in itself isn't terrible but the machine being down for 9 days while they throw parts at it and not offering a loaner or other solution is not acceptable in my opinion. That's why I think Cat and/or the dealer should be offering a parts or service credit. It would sure help repair the relationship with the customer.
It might have been better to just swap the whole machine after day 2 of the downed machine but maybe that wasn't possible?
The 150 has a 183 hp C7. The 150 AWD is a 213 hp C9. Then further down it says this, which I assume is what your referencing and I read as more HP when in AWD ? “AWD automatically increases your horsepower up to an additional 26 kW (35 hp) to maximize your power to the ground.”
Yes but anyone of those days it could have been running again. No one said “ok it’s down for 9 days we think !” How many spare machines do you see on lots ? Would you pay full price for a new 150 if it had 50 hrs and paint all off the blade because it helped someone else ? Not unheard of to give loaners/rentals but again maybe if the trans blew and it was clearly going to be down for weeks from day 1. You say it had parts thrown at it, which would you have changed first ? Now there is another down machine to get this one going. Sounds like they were trying and checked/changed the first and most probable items first. Was it perfect ? No. But do we know all the facts ? No. And just throwing money at customers for down time is not truly a good solution. Parts supply/network, supply chain, dealer training, tech support and troubleshooting material is what needs to get focused on. That gets machines running and owners happy not giving $1000 a day just because it might make the owner feel better. The gap between what is involved in fixing a fully electronic state of the art machines and what the average joe knows/understands is wider than ever and growing daily it appears.
Yes steps are in place for good reason, the dealer should have followed them.
This - with brass knobs on. Every Cat electronic troubleshooting procedure written contains "The ECM has failed - This is unlikely. Run the TS procedure again." as the last item on the list of possible causes for the particular Code or whatever. Often the only way to get something that is giving intermittent issues (always a bear to troubleshoot because it never acts up when the mechanic is on the machine) is to WORK the machine, not play around wit it in the dealer's yard. Stress, temperature, vibration, system cycling, etc, all help in getting whatever is failing intermittently to fail completely and that makes the diganostic process far easier. Codes can appear after the machine has left the production line for all sorts of reasons. If a Code was simply Logged (not active) I'm sure any of my guys would simply erase it and move on without a second thought. Sometimes Codes appear after what can only be described as divine intervention because nobody laid a hand on the machine. I am a big believer in using the Polaroid principle as a 1st step in cases of intermittent electronic issues. And what is the Polaroid Principle I hear you ask.? "Be patient and let it develop".............
Any of those 9 day's it could have been running again? really, should have got you to trouble shoot her on the first day, the machine was at level three shut down, 120% on the filter and wouldn't ignite for regen, even when mobile bypassed the system on his laptop forcing it to regen, then after the mobile went through Cats process including ordering parts and changing them one by one on the 8th day Cat directed him to the ECM, replaced the ECM late in the day on day 9, which was robbed from one of our new machines sitting at our depot, would have been another 2 day's to get a new ECM in. all this should have been troubleshooted and fixed before we took ownership.
Sorry you missed my point. By saying it could have been running any day I meant as each part got replaced it could have fixed it. This was not a min 9 day troubleshooting process but step by step (part by part).
After 2 days down, maybe they should have looked into a donor machine as it apparently wasn't a simple fix (at least wasn't initially). Maybe the field tech should have been supplied with all the parts that may fix it instead of all the wait time getting different parts one at a time. Parts not needed could be taken back. That would have saved considerable time. The fact is it took 9 days to fix and the customer suffered. There should be some kind of compensation for the customer. There's also another machine the customer can't use because they robbed the ECM of it.
Well on the other side of the coin guy's the machine is working good, it has great pulling and cutting power in AWD, you have to be careful or you will have alot of material to deal with in a hurry, not used to a tight machine sense a while, things that kinda bother me is lack of seeing clearly behind you, i'm used to seeing what your laying out using your mirror or just turning around in your seat, the mirrors on this machine only see each side, the camera that shows behind you is not accurate and the height of the rear engine compartment blocks your vision if you turn around in your seat, also not able to see the center of the blade when spreading, you would never know you were dragging a rock unless you felt it or seen the smoke from it, I can't wait to get this machine in the ditch, I have a couple of roads to rebuild and do a make over on just waiting for things to dry up alittle more, I will post pictures of before and after and along the way, she will get a good work out in this material.
Supposedly you have 30 days to reject a machine. We tried. That's when the "legaleze" talk began. No one from the dealership or JD has contacted us since. I will never accept a new machine again until we have ran it a day. Every problem our machine had showed up the first day.
Yeah, that's what I am referring to. And it seems that's what 20/80 is saying. An easily noticeable difference in power when AWD is engaged. So why wouldn't the operator run it engaged all the time? On a JD machine the HP to run the AWD is used all the time. It constantly applies pressure to the front wheel motors. There's no difference felt by the operator. It's not even noticeable when you accelerate the front wheel speed. Does CAT not function that way? If not, then that explains the HP change. The computer compensates for the added load of suddenly having to pressurize the AWD by elevating the HP. And if that's the case it would do no good to run in AWD all the time because the load increased. Thanks for your thorough explanations!!!
Well versed report. This is my first AWD machine. I also noticed it's easy to move excessive material. I was accustomed to gauging the material being moved by wheel traction. That's all changed with AWD. Your comments about visibility rearward are spot on. First thing I noticed when demoing a 140 and a 12 was poor rearward visibility. In the JD I never look over my shoulder. I never use the in cab rearview mirror. I don't have a camera. I get all the visibility I need using the outside mirrors. Although you can't see or feel it, I think the JD mirrors are slightly convexed. Large range of horizontal vision. With a little leaning side to side I can see my entire moldboard. I sympathize with your comment about a rock. That really aggravates me. I started in my machine with moving dirt building/elevating a roadbed. You are really going to like the AWD. Cutting a roadbank, cleaning a ditch, moving dirt, all of those things are more productive. I had a guy tell me the other day that the CAT salesman says in ten years they won't sell machines without AWD. I think he's right. Two years in and I'd be lost without it.
One of my concerns is hydraulic hoses in the front that run the front drives getting hooked and torn off also grease lines, will have to be careful when over the bank, the material I have to work with is less then ideal, lots of ledge to get over, boulders rocks, sticks to get removed and shake out and soft spots to get to the material you can use for the road, finding traction for back sloping was a chore in my 140H, hoping this AWD will change things in the traction department and moving material in these conditions, I will soon know what NOT to do. LOL
Take a couple of photos of the front axle. There may be some optional (additional) guards available that no-one thought to order. I know that was the case with our 16Ms when they were new. See below, taken from the Optional Equipment list . I wonder what the "axle hose guard" is.? After having steering cylinder hoses ripped off a few times as a result of grader operators trying to fo the work of a D6 using a machine with the blade in the centre instead of at the front the guards were soon procured and installed.......
I have a grin when I read this thread and you fellas acknowledging the benefits of 6 wheel drive. I grew up with these gadgets when they were new.
Thanks Nige, there is some sort of a steel guard mounted on the inside of the front wheels, not sure if that's the one in your list, the hoses that run to the front drive are held up in place what looks like a leather strap, I'm afraid it wouldn't take much to rip that off, You can see the guard next to the wheel also those leather straps, if this picture loads right
I was talking about two big skid plates mounted under the steering cylinders. Let me go digging.....
We used to have one back in the day in our shop according to the old hands, bought it brand new, was a bugger to keep running though.
The good old Ambling Ba$tard. Keeping u/joints on the drive shafts to the front axle in one piece was always a challenge.
Thanks Nige.
I checked that out when looking at a 140M AWD. Horrible design. Stupid straps that won't save anything!!! What were they thinking!!! JD is bad enough, but not that bad!!!
This is the sort of thing I was talking about. I suspect the "Axle Guard" I posted above from the Optional attachments list for the 150M will probably look something like this. The illustration is from a 16M Parts Manual. Someone ought to ask the dealer for photos of what's available for the 150M AWD model.
What's the weird ticking noise the grader makes?
Blowing exhaust manifold.?
Not sure, just seems to make an odd ticking noise when the machine was revved up and moving faster. Maybe the chains for the tandems?
That's alot neater then what's on the Cat, the JD has alot more protection, the hoses on mine are just hanging and are vulnerable to being hooked and torn off, I will ask about protection plates for those hoses if there is such a guard, Nige's picture of a skid plate i'm not sure would protect the hoses.
I looked it over for several minutes. The design of the hub and drive motor require a lot of slack in the hoses. I couldn't see any way to protect that slack. If you come up with something be sure to post pics here.
I will for sure, I have been digging and its looks like the guards for the hoses will have to be custom made to allow for the slack for the hub design, we may have to live with it, not liking the strap holding the hoses up, not sure if we can bungee the hoses to the front to keep them from flopping around and getting caught in something.
Well I have another problem, or I think its a problem, Cat is coming tomorrow morning, there is 5 fault codes sense the Cat mobile cleared everything when he replaced the ECM 4-5 day's ago, two of the codes are saying low fuel pressure, another one is aftertreatment code, then another code is something the computer is not recognizing, than a tranny overspeed code, not sure how that one pop up never over did any overspeed at anytime during the course of the last 4-5 days, not sure what's normal for DEF fluid I am getting around 30hrs to a full jug, last year when I ran our borrowed 140M3 it hardly used any amount it seems, I will add that no lights or alarms were on, just a warning beep this morning when I left but no warning lights.
Good grief! Way too many problems for a 500K machine. I was talking with one of the guys from the gravel pit close to my land and he said they bought some new Volvo machines and have no problems with them at all. The new Cat machines they've bought continue to have issues needing a tech to come out. He said Volvo are the best machines reliability wise and will be their first choice for more new machines. Excavators and dozers they'll stay with Cat.
Assuming none of the codes are affecting the emissions system performance, it’s not how many jugs you put in as much as % of DEF to fuel burn. In my experience 4-6% is doing well 8-10% is getting up there. Track your fuel when you fill up if possible and divide the L of DEF to L of fuel to determine DEF burn.
Buddy in our sister shop that is operating the 140m3 I will ask him this morning how much DEF he uses normally, he keeps track of everything with his machine, he's on engine number 3, also new blade, new circle, and A frame circle support, all bent, just to name a few, warranty covered it, downtime to fix was awful.
These things are more like my problems were. Nothing that prevented the machine from being used. Just a constant aggravation. As to DEF, I'll use 2.5 gallon DEF for each 100 gallon of diesel. That varies with work load and outside air temperature. Thanks for the update.
Well the Cat mobile was here this morning and did his thing with the laptop, reconfigured the system got rid of the codes, everything is back up to snuff...BUT... We found another PROBLEM!! oil is now leaking out from around the starter and is dripping on the rear skid plate, starter bolts are all tight, he will be back on Friday to pull the starter and put in a new gasket kit, also he is bringing some wrap for my front hoses the ones they have for harvesters that work in the woods for some extra protection, bugs, bugs, and more bugs, was also talking to my buddy in regards to DEF usage he figures mine is using about the right amount compared to his 140m, I hope this is just growing pains!!!
JD Tech told me we should use 3% DEF. I'm a little under that most of the time.
Yeah, I am going to keep track like big ben suggested of my Liters to a jug of DEF to see what the average percentage is on my machine.
I’d also suggest that you keep a log of how much engine oil you are adding, just in case the info is needed down the road.
Thanks Nige, I haven't had to add any oil, the leak is not a big one just enough to make a drip on the rear skid plate every now and then, the dust was soaking it up, I noticed it last week when I was cleaning the machine, we service every Friday afternoon as a rule, so I kept a eye on it and noted it, when the Cat mobile was here a day ago I got him to check it out and sure enough it was leaking out around the starter, we caught it before it got worse, one thing about Cat I have learned over the years when it comes to newer graders any little leaks that you may think is not a big deal, if not addressed and fixed in a timely fashion is gonna cost you big time down the road.
Well here's another update, after getting the new gasket for the starter which seemed to fix the leak I noticed today while working her there was some more oil dripping on the bottom guard, this time its coming out the breather tube dripping in another spot, not sure if this is normal, the engine oil is not over filled its a bit below the full, ALSO... NOW a seal on the left front wheel for the AWD seems to be leaking oil, the right side is dry, Dying old suffering!!.. this machine can't make it a week without calling Cat to come fix the F#%king thing, HERE WE GO AGAIN NEW CAT 150 AWD DOWN AGAIN!!!!!
Almost time to enact the lemon law. Way too many issues for a new machine. Must have had no quality control checks after it was built. I was a little pizzed when I bought my skid steer and it had 9 hours on the meter. Maybe that was a good thing as they could have found any leaks/problems and fixed them before I took delivery. Seems like this grader (hopefully not the other ones you bought) should have been ran for 50 hours or so to find all the problems. Would have been better than what you're going through now.
Yeah I know, A leaking seal is not a big deal but holy sh#t this machine is brand new, it costs us a $1000 bucks easy for Cat to come to our shop for warranty work on this machine, first trip will be to assess and figure out the parts they need and get them approved, second trip for the repair and a good 50% chance he will need to order more parts to finish the job, all this time the machine has more down time which also costs us, we should not have to pay one red cent to Cat on a new machine with not even a 100 hrs on it, we pay for the Cat mobile to run back and forth FOR THIS NEW MACHINE, its not right CAT!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN NEW CAT 150 AWD DOWN AGAIN!!!
It's way beyond ridiculous now. You paid how much for all the new Cat machines??? What happens if the other new machines have the same problems as this one? Makes you worry about taking the new machines out on the road for fear of something failing.
There is no lemon law for anything other than automobiles. What needs to be found out is if the dealer is charging freight, travel time and mileage for the repairs.
I was being facetious but maybe there should be a lemon law for equipment. The equipment manufacturers don't want you working on your own machines and want you to call them so why not make them accountable for providing a proper working machine.
So tell us how you would accomplish that bit of legal magic?
I believe the Cat mobile said $250 hr is their rate, we are charged from the time he leaves in the morning till he gets back to Cats shop later in the day if he's not called to another job, not sure if this is right or not, but that's a big bill for us if it is, this next repair will be Cats 7th trip to our shop for trouble shooting and repairs on this new Cat 150 AWD with less than 100hrs.
If it's warranty work I bet it don't cost you a singe Loonie. Bob
And I'll bet you that they are paying freight, travel time and mileage. Sure the repair work in on the factory but the dealer isn't paying the rest without trying to mitigate those other charges.
Lol blades and backhoes seem to be their problem lately. Only built like 1,000,0000,000 of each but still some engineers at mothership cat still managed to stuff up the works.
After thinking about it I believe we are paying for the travel at $250 hr or being charged a flat rate of $1000 per service call, its either one or the other, that's still a hefty bill for a new machine not counting down time, we are also getting a new Cat backhoe, it has arrived at our mechanical branch and should be at our shop this week, the Cat mobile just smiled when I told him as he worked on fixing my new Cat 150 grader.
Oh no not an F2 hoe? ahahahah
Going to get her tomorrow, not sure what model just that it is a new Cat, there shouldn't be any problems with it.
When I worked for the Cat dealer a sales rep told me the only good thing about the F series loader backhoes was that they no longer had to try to sell the E series.
When our 410 JD was down one time we got a Cat rental for a month, it work pretty good.
Hopefully not going to see a new thread: New Cat TLB down
Little known fact cause its not not well published in cat literature, the F2 stands for double fucked. Common thing I hear from people that bought them, can I have the E model back???? Hahahah
So with this 150 grader it should be an F12!
We're at 900hrs on our JD machine. It has never used any. I change at 250hrs and it's still on the full mark. With improvements in materials the clearances are a lot less and engines just don't consume as much oil.
I can't say for sure whether it's JD or the Dealership, we never paid for any service calls the first year.
We Well I think Cat likes to Nickle and dime new Cat owners when it comes to service calls, paying for the mileage and what ever else they can leech out of you outside their 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, the first 500hrs should be on Cat to cover everything, this is one of there products they sold us, stand behind it!
Have you been billed anything yet including travel ? What have they billed you for in the first 500 hrs ?
Yeah, it's not like it's getting warranty on $500 part, it's a $500K machine!!!
Apparently he is just the operator and is kept out of the spending loop.
He seems very adamant Cat is charging them for every call and “nickel and dime new Cat owners” so just wondering what he is seeing
It doesn't seem too much a stretch of the imagination that a long term operator is kept in the loop regarding what is happening with the new grader he was assigned to. Especially when it puts him behind in his work. I think most operators would want to know what the heck is going on.
I was told between $1000 plus for a service call, parts and labour are covered under the warranty, charged for every time they are called to come to your machine, usually it will be two visits from Cat for one problem, the first visit is to assess the problem and order the parts, second visit is to put the part on and hopefully fix the problem, so this becomes costly for a costumer if you are having troubles with a brand NEW machine, The front seal on my left front hub is now leaking also, we are not sure if the leaking is normal, its not alot of oil enough that your finger is covered if you touch it, we are waiting for it to get worse before calling in another service call, we sent a picture to Cat, to add more misery my trans is jumping gears irratically every now and then, the Cat rep for our machine is working on that, they may start remote monitoring of my machine to see what's going on with the trans, DYING OLD SUFFERING!!! 115 hrs and counting!
OMG! They should replace the damn thing already! Ridiculous.
You are right MR JOHN C, i'm "JUST" a operator, but I am assigned to this machine and responsible for it, I may not control the spending for this machine but I run this machine and report any problems that i'm having, that's why I started this thread to share my experience with the great members on this forum, be careful when your looking down your nose at other members.
I can see where you offence to "just an operator" but I don't think that was his intention. More your not in the office seeing the bills
Best not to guess what info an operator is privy to or not. This thread seems to point out that Cat and/or the dealer has a too bad so sad kind of attitude regarding a 500K machine.
I see what is being spent, very well informed and involved with what's happening with the machine i'm responsible for, but I am not going to post invoices on the forum, I only give little hints from time to time, there are alot of operators that are involved in what's happening with the machine their operating even when they don't own it, they take pride in looking after the machine they are running and are well respected.
So what is the difference between a service call and warranty labor? Bob
First year machine warranty includes travel on machines of this class.
Well I know that and you know that but this guy seems to think they are different. Bob
Is this what is offered by Cat in Vancouver? we have the 5 year bumper to bumper warranty on this machine, not sure if this is offered in your area, but we pay for travel for a service call, not sure if its just the flat rate or the hourly rate, saying that travel is covered under the warranty for the first year, I don't think we got that deal, I will bring up what you said about this when I talk to the Cat Rep next week, see what he comes back with, hope you are right, I would gladly eat crow on this issue.
5 year premium warranty is fairly std on a county/governmental/municipalities machine. For less than you think travel can be included as well. If they are charging you travel on these first warranty calls maybe that explains why Toromont’s share price is doing so well.
The response confirms my post and earlier question.
Well guy's here's another update, I held back on saying anything till my machine did it again today, I have now gone through a gallon of oil in 100hrs of use, I dropped 2 litres in it two weeks ago and today I added 2 more litres, not sure if this is just part of the break in for this 9.3 or not, I will say I ran our sisters shop 140m everyday last year for two months while my 140h was getting painted, it had a new reman 9.3 and never took a drop of oil the hold time I had it, so i'm abit concerned.
They'll probably say to put 500 or so hours on it and then see if it still goes through a lot of oil. The rings didn't seat on my rebuilt engine and it had to come back out. You wouldn't think a brand new engine should use that much oil but maybe. I don't know if the DEF or other emissions stuff affects oil use or break in on a new engine.
Yeah, i'm not sure what to expect with the 9.3, this maybe just break in, its funny how it drops though, stays full on the stick and does not slowly drop to appoint you have to add oil, it just drops 2 litres at once it seems, stays on the full mark for a couple of weeks then drops 2 litres at a time, the machine was sitting over the weekend so all oil would have had a chance to drained down so its a accurate check, don't know what to think.
Well here's another update, the 150 seems to be working fine this last week other then the front seals on the AWD weeping abit of oil and the tranny jumping the gears around in manual mode , I will get the Cat techs input on the seals and tranny when he comes to the shop on Monday to fix our brand new 440 backhoe that has failed and out of commission at 38 hrs, LOL got to love Cat products.
Or hate them.
I run it and maintain it as if it were my own. I don't charge hours for servicing. I use my facilities for maintenance including washing the machine, no charge. I frequently get comments about how well I take care of "my" machine. I thank them and then correct them. It's not "my" machine, it's the "taxpayers" machine and they should expect nothing less. I appreciate this thread and thank you for taking time to update us good or bad.
I'm Blessed with an engine that uses no oil. I check it out of habit. I'm changing at 250hrs.
Cat is saying 500hrs for oil change but every 250hrs is what this machine will get like yours regardless what Cat say's, my H Series grader was 250 hrs its whole life and is still running strong to this day 14000hrs never touched, not sure what to tell you about the oil usage could be just the rings seating and engine break in, after 500hrs if it still does it I will be more concerned especially with our track record with M series Cat graders.
On another note Cat mobile was at the shop yesterday fixing our new 440 Cat hoe, he also had to load some new software in my 150 to except the Craig plow set up, he also had a chance to look and see first hand at the seals weeping on the both front hubs, he thought he would check the vents on the hubs to make sure they where working properly and not plugged from paint or what not, he had to remove a few hyd hoses to get at the vents to get them out, one of those hyd lines is actually a 6 wire data link incased in a hyd line, after confirming the vents were working as they should the mobile put everything back together started the machine and was now throwing a alarm and a code, turns out when the mobile put the data link line back on it pinched the wires beyond repair, so now I need a new wiring harness for my left front hub, 2 days plus to get one, more F@#king down time, I felt bad for the mobile where he near blew a gasket when this happened, Cat will be paying on their dime for the mileage and every other charge on this service call to fix this.
Bummer. You are having no good luck with this machine. I felt that way without ours in the beginning. I kept telling myself to have faith. Two years after purchase I am comfortable with the machine. But I'm also critically conscious of everything. We won't keep this machine more than 4 years. Just don't have long term faith in it. Probably trade it and get one that's worse!!! I have no faith in quality control anymore.
Machine is back up and running now, seems to be working fine so far, this engine and tranny combo has a weird torque curve, causes your tranny to up shift and down shift on its own when your in manual mode, I don't like it at all when the tranny does this, I don't think its normal and can put you in a bad situation in icy conditions, Cat has had a lot of complaints on this.
From the Service Manual - "When the transmission is in manual mode, the ECM will not upshift or downshift automatically unless there is an engine overspeed or underspeed condition ." - I would imagine this is what is causing your transmission shifting in manual mode. EDIT: I'm not trying to say it's right or wrong, just that's why it's happening.
Good stuff Nige. I agree with 20/80, I wouldn't like that at all. JD has an "Anti Stall" system that I like. It will kick the trans in neutral before it'll kill the engine in an overload situation. I trip this system once in awhile. Always at an idle or near idle situation where the load suddenly increases. I seem to do it more when working in AWD. I've gotten much better as I've gotten used to the machine.
The same system is in all the Cat M-Series graders AFAIK. In order to prevent the engine lugging excessively or overspeeding the transmission will shift up or down as necessary even if shifting is set to manual. If it shifts down far enough I think (but not 100% sure) it will shift to neutral. I also think that before shifting it gives an "engine underspeed/overspeed" warning on the Messenger panel.
Thanks Nige, I am getting a overspeed code, not sure how to keep the machine from jumping around in its gears though and not sure why i'm getting a overspeed code either where I have been very careful, it does it alot when your spreading material, i'm usually in third when spreading around 4mph 2000 rpm, when you come to the end of your windrow it will often drop to 2nd than back to 3rd again which causes the machine to jump, when you put your clutch in to stop it hops to 5th every now and then instead of just staying in 3rd, the pre set for the gears is set for 3rd, trying to figure out what I can do to prevent this from happening, I can't get a vid of it doing it were it does not do it all the time just when you don't expect it, our other M does not do this, I have not noticed any warning on the messenger panel before any up shifts or down shifts, the panel is right in front of me I will take notice though.
Nige, Thinking about it just so that I understand, could you give me a example of a overspeed condition and a under speed condition for my 150 while grading a road and spreading, maybe this will help me understand what to do or not to do.
That might take me a while. Not sure it's in the online system so I may well end up digging through various training materials I have for 14M/16M/18M/24M. The problem might be that the criteria for transmission shifting up/down on a 150M (being part of the 120M/140M/160M product line) might be different, and unfortunately I have no similar training materials for that line of machines.
This is what I've come up with so far. No hard and fast numbers regarding at what engine RPM the transmission output RPM will automatically cause an upshift (even in manual mode) to prevent an engine overspeed. Transmission Over Speed Protection Strategy Overspeed protection is a feature that utilizes transmission shifts to help protect the engine from running at an overspeed condition. In addition, overspeed protection ensures that the transmission will never be shifted into a gear that would cause an overspeed condition. The control will upshift the transmission by one gear when the transmission output speed reaches the overspeed up shift point for the current gear. The control does not limit the number of overspeed up shifts. If the transmission output speed continues to increase, the control will upshift, based on overspeed upshift points, until the transmission reaches the top gear. The control will downshift the transmission by one gear when the actual gear is higher than the selected gear and the transmission output speed decreases below the overspeed downshift point. Transmission Under Speed Protection Strategy Underspeed protection automatically downshifts the transmission to the next lower gear when the machine is being operated below low idle and under load. The downshift will allow the engine to operate in a more appropriate speed range. If the engine continues below idle after the downshift, the underspeed protection will automatically downshift the transmission to the next lower gear after a one second delay. Once the engine speed has recovered to an acceptable level for at least five seconds, the transmission will begin to upshift to the original requested gear. Underspeed protection will not shift the transmission to the NEUTRAL. To avoid automatic downshifts, the machine should be operated at or above 1000 rpm. If a directional shift is performed before the transmission has returned to the requested gear, the transmission will automatically upshift after the directional shift to the requested gear or the maximum gear in that direction. Sequential Speed Shifting The Power-Shift function of the transmission allows the operator to adjust the transmission gear while the machine is in motion. The operator can obtain the optimal machine ground speed for the operation being performed by matching the transmission gear for the given engine speed. Use the upshift switch and use the downshift switch to adjust the transmission gear while you use the machine. You can upshift the transmission at any engine speed, given the engine is capable of handling the load. No matter the number of shifts that are commanded at one time, there is a delay between the shifts to prevent a shift interruption. Anticipate the gear you need for the operation to prevent the transmission from stalling the engine due to the shift delay. Depending on the gear, some downshifts require the engine to be less than high idle to ensure that engine overspeed does not occur due to the shift. Control Throttle Shifting (CTS) is employed to limit the desired engine speed. Once the downshift is complete, the desired engine speed will be returned to the current operator requested speed. Similar to the upshifts, the downshifts are subject to a shift delay to prevent shift interruption. Speed shifts can be performed in any loading condition, as speed shifts are automatically compensated for engine load. To lengthen the transmission clutch life and to prevent degradation of shift quality, the clutch modulation is adjusted according to load conditions. The compensated shifts minimize torque interruptions to maintain the load transfer during the transmission gear change.
Taken from my other post above. This could explain why the transmission upshifts then downshifts....... Imagine this scenario - Manual shift mode, 5th speed selected, transmission in 5th. Trans output speed (TOS) that is directly related to ground speed increases to the trigger value. To protect the engine from an overspeed the trans upshifts automatically to 6th speed. A couple of seconds later the TOS reduces below the trigger point and the trans shifts back to 5th because that is the selected gear. Operator reacts by either backing off the throttle or hitting the brakes (or both), TOS reduces significantly and, based on the shifting strategy the trans could potentially also downshift to 4th speed. All I can suggest is the next time a Cat tech is on site (likely based on past machine history) have him check if there have been any Diagnostic Codes relating to the TOS sensor. Download a copy of the Product Status Report in pdf and give it to you. You can post it here or PM me. I’ll gladly give it a once-over.
Thanks so much Nige, this is giving me a better understanding why my machine is doing what it is doing in regards to shifting, I will get the Cat tech to check relating to the TOS sensor for codes and maybe have something for you, thanks again
The PSR is downloaded using ET in the form of an Adobe pdf file. Takes a couple of minutes if the tech is already hooked up to the machine, and nothing in it is confidential that can't be shared with the customer. It will likely be anything up to 12 pages and covers (what appears to be) a million different parameters. However if one knows what one is looking for it's not hard to interpret. TBH it was a standard SOP for us to download a PSR immediately on connection to the machine, then download another one after completing whatever work was done. The files are time-stamped so it is easy to see which one was the "before" and which was the "after". Often useful because if logged Diagnostic Codes were erased as part of the service work it's easy to refer back to what was on the machine in times past.
If his machine is displaying proper characteristics I'd say that sucks. If his machine is operating outside the designed parameters then I'd want it adjusted. What he describes would be unacceptable to me. Especially the upshift, then downshift. I agree with him the machine is going to lurch and create an imperfection in the finish grade. That would frustrate me terribly..... I blade the first two passes on a road half throttle in 5th. I'd be aggravated if the machine decided to shift gears based on engine speed. I blade my final pass in 6th WOT or 7th half throttle. Again, I want control of shifts. Curious to hear the outcome of this situation. I'm hoping the parameters are simply too restrictive and can be adjusted to allow some flexibility.
I'm thinking I will have to adjust to this torque curve in this new 150, not really sure how i'm going to do that, what is written in the manual on this issue and real world operating of this machine in different road conditions and tasks can really be a big difference, this imfo to remedy the erratic shifting may only be based on the best conditions, you take ditching especially in soft conditions the trans may shift all over the place when slowing and speeding up to get through some trickier area's of the cut, ice blading with this torque curve may be very frustrating also, I am usually between forth and fifth gear when ice blading that's between the high and low side of this tranny, so you are gaining and losing power when cutting all the time, all depends on ice conditions some sections can be soft and others hard even in favorable temps, again this may cause this tranny setup to jump all over the place through its gears and cause you to break traction.
Do I recall you saying more than one of these machines had been bought new.? If that's the case can you get to run one of the others relatively easily.? If the same shifting issue manifested itself on the other machine then you could say with some confidence it is being caused by machine parameters, i.e. the power train (engine/trans ECM) software strategy. If however the other machine performs impeccably with you in the seat then you could point the finger at your particular machine.
I had a chance to run one of our sister shops 12M2 with the same DEF engine tranny combo a few weeks ago during some training exercises, in manual mode it only down shifted once the whole week when operating below 1100 rpm in 4th, there was no jumping around back and forth in the gears at all, ran very nice and smooth in the shifts and showed no signs of erratic shifting around in the gears like my 150, kind of makes me wonder with the extra load with the AWD engaged may have something to do with it, maybe with the increase in HP when you engage AWD affects the torque curve making shifting more sensitive, just a thought, you would think the ECMs would compensate for that though.
Unfortunately there is no way of guaranteeing that the engine/power train software is the same between the two models. I thought you said that your employer had bought something like 10 new 150 AWD machines and so my question was more along the lines of could you get in the saddle of one of them. If you can get hold of the S/N of the 12M then PM it to me and I'll compare software between your machine and it. Send your machine S/N as well.
I will Nige, it may be a couple weeks though till I get back over in that area, also may have a chance to check a new 140 AWD with the levers, just received a new one at another shop, that would have the same engine tranny combo I would think, its the 9.3 engine.
Another thing you might consider is getting the dealer demonstration operator out there and have him run the machine. Those guys know how the machine is supposed to run and have direct contact with the factory to ask any questions that might come up. They also have behind the scenes input at times with the engineers when they come across a problem that might be design related.
The dealer demonstration operator that come out to go over my 150 AWD also is asking questions, he is not sure either why the gear changing is happening like it is, I sent him some info that Nige sent me to look over also.
The ECM setup will be different in the 150 versus 140 versus 12M. To prove or disprove Nige's point you would need to run a 150.
Did he run it long enough to experience these problems? Would be great if he did.
No he did not, just around a parking lot.
Well guy's I thought I would post a update on my 150AWD, the machine seems to be working just fine so far, I am putting her through her paces with some ditching and road recovery, I must say I am impressed with the pulling power and its ability to get you out of a bad situation, spreading new gravel on a road also is impressive, you can move alot of material with this 150 AWD at one time without breaking traction when leveling the gravel piles compared to my old 140H, so far I am happy with the machine over all, hopefully she stays together.
I have a question that maybe somebody could answer, has anybody ever run carbide studs in your front wheels during snow and ice duties? been thinking about putting carbide studs in my front tires on the 150AWD for the winter, where our front fenders which are a necessity in this area because we use such alot of road salt that would completely cover your windows with salt residue without them are close to the tires and its extremely hard to get chains on the front tires, been reading a few reviews on the studs which seem to be positive, I am looking at GripStuds for Graders rated for 20+ ton, any advise or opinions or experience on using studs would be appreciated, thanks so much
I saw those when I priced blades and they look like they would be a good option. Not sure how they would hold up if spinning the tires a lot but wouldn't think you'd be spinning that much.
Thanks, At the demo for my 150 the Cat rep explained that where you have power in your front wheels any icy turns that your in AWD you will find that your front wheels will break traction and slide wanting to go straight and not make the turn even when your rears are unlocked, so you would either have to be fully chained up in the front or in my case carbide studs when ice blading to keep the front wheels planted while in AWD, I have looked at different types of carbide studs and the GripStud brand has a much bigger auger style thread to keep the studs locked in place compared to other brands that use just a sheet metal screw style thread to hold them in place, GripStud reviews on using them on heavy equipment such as big Cat loaders used for snow removal have a very good rating, also with their special install tool you can remove the stud in the spring, some operators are getting 3 years out of a set removing them every spring, we use the ladder style chains which are not so bad on the rears for vibration but used on the front will shake your machine to pieces if your not going slow, Carbide studs on the front would be much smoother for sure, I am thinking 200 per tire for the front which will give me 1 in every lug, the more studs used the less stress on each stud and greater the traction. any thoughts on this are welcomed
I liked the look of GripStuds and think they would work good. The 780A grader I looked at, at RB had had 3 chains on it. 2 on the furthest back tires and 1 on a front tire. I think they seller should have taken them off to sell separately. They were HD studded chains and the tires were 20.5x25. From reading on here it's always best to have chains on all 4 back tires so you don't stress the drive chains for the tandems. Another reason I'm glad I didn't pursue this machine. I think it had a tough life or at least some rough operators. How do bust the circle shift cylinder mount off? Twisting the end of the moldboard extension I can see happening if trying to take too much of a bite. Maybe the broke cylinder mount and twisted moldboard extension are related from shifting the blade over and putting all the force on the moldboard extension???
The operator was running down the road in high gear with his mouldboard extended out and hit something hard like a huge rock would be my best guess to bend the mouldboard and bust the circle shift mount off, major stress on all the parts involved, yep 4 chains on the back is the best.
I went to RB again today and looked at the 780A again. The moldboard wasn't bent as bad as I first thought but both circle shift mounts had been re-welded. The cylinder can be moved from 1 side to the other. How the 1 broke in the middle is really perplexing. Why one the cylinder wasn't attached to was re-welded is also very interesting. Maybe it was used in the past??? If the damage was caused in operating would be serious abuse.
I've never chained the front. I don't have any traction loss and/or steering loss when running in AWD. Actually the steering is more responsive. With small snows, 4-6", and no drifts, I don't chain up at all. I use heavy duty 2 link crossbar chains on the rear. I like Peerless brand the best. Easy to use latch system. Seem to last longer than other brands. Can't prove that.
Thanks, where I have no experience with the AWD on ice and snow yet I was just going by what the Cat Rep pointed out, when your in AWD your front tires wants to slide left or to the right when on ice more than a none AWD unit, we do a lot of ice blading on shiny ice caused by the crazy temp swings here, 40F and raining then falling to 15F in 6 hours, that's why I was thinking carbide studs for the front tires, and chains for the rears, we make all our own ladder type chains.
I'm not familiar with CAT AWD. On a JD machine there is an on/off switch for AWD. Then there's a dial switch that allows the speed of the front tires to be advanced or retarded compared to the speed of the rears. When pushing snow I run at 0% which means all tires are running the same speed. If I need to gain a bit more traction for direction control I might bump the fronts up 5% or so +. When doing ditch work or steep bank work I run the fronts at 10% or so +. When working in mud I run the fronts at 20% or so +. I've never experienced a situation where I use AWD in negative settings.
Cat AWD controls are much the same as the JD controls.
A bit of a update on my 150 AWD, Mother Cat is remotely monitoring my machine from a far, Cat is monitoring the erratic tranny shifting i'm experiencing when operating the machine from time to time, I was spreading gravel a week or two ago and my 150 took a funny spell and started shifting erratic on me two or three times while in manual mode, wasn't very long and a Cat tech made a surprise visit a day or two later and took the machine for a ride, I was off that day so I didn't get to talk to the Cat tech.
Good response on their part. CAT, DEERE and I assume every other manufacturer has the ability to monitor all their machines. JD calls it "JD Link". Two of the coding problems were corrected thru JD Link. Although they told me I didn't have a problem. Suddenly it just stopped throwing those two codes. Funny how that works. Bummer part is trying to get it to act up while the tech is operating it. If it didn't, they will record the visit as "no problem". Thanks for the update!!!! This particular problem would be very frustrating!!!
Everyone who buys either brand gives the manufacturer the right to monitor your machine and use any information derived for their benefit without paying you a dime for that data. It's in the sales contract. They also charge you a subscription fee to be able to have the same access to that data in real time.
I never thought of it as over reach on the manufacturer's part. I also never thought I should get paid for the data. We don't pay any fee.
Can you look up the operation on your cell phone?
Never tried. Why would I need to?
Then you probably don't have the subscription.
And why would I need it?
You probably wouldn't but if you were in a county with six or more running ten hours a day in an area of about 300 square miles, it's a good idea. It still has a monthly subscription, even though you apparently didn't know about it.
Well guy's this is something I do not agree with, when it comes time to change Your oil, in my 140h always at 250 hrs faithfully, 14000 hrs on the engine and never been touched, but Cat now wants you to change the oil on these new machines at 500 hrs, has the cartridge type filters also we are running 10w30 in these new engines, we always ran 15w40 in my 140H, with alot of these c7 and c9 engines in our department that are blowing to pieces, you would think 250hr oil change intervals for these new engines would be cheap insurance, I honestly think Cat is using the 500hr oil changes as a way to sell the machines to buyers using the reduce maintenance cost as a selling point, in the end and not written in any Cat brochure the buyer will pay big time with no reduced cost like advertised.
In the 60s when I started operating machines oil changes were at 100 hour intervals on all engines including Cat. Years later changes were shifted 250 hrs with the same scepticism as you young fellas have.
Scary part is 500 hrs is getting to be outdated. Some new machines are 1000 hrs. The OMM says oil sample at 250 hrs and oil change and oil sample at 500hrs. If the oil is not holding up then back down to 250 hrs. I trust an oil lab for oil condition over what feels rights or was done in years past. As machines advance so does oil and filters. Again you still oil sample every 250hrs so you know exactly what is happening with the oil. Takes the guess work out of the equation. If doing a $100 oil change not including labor every 250 hrs gives you peace of mind then continue with it.
We still do it at 250, I feel it is cheap insurance. What I have found is after 350 or so the sample will show the oil breaking down. When I tried for 500 they showed a lot of iron in them, at 250 it was clean. Those were excavators. I was told by Cat when the samples came back dirty that the 500 hour interval only really works in like a mill environment when the machine runs closer to 24 hours a day. With the monitor set at 250 by the time the operator sees it, remembers to tell someone and actually get me or the other guy out to do it it is probably closer to 300 hours or so.
I'd put more faith in changing oil based on oil analysis results than on a blanket "X" hours between changes. Or at least use oil analysis to determine what "X" should be and then monitor it going forward. I assume that oil samples are taken every oil change and that someone monitors the results.? Agree with Ben that if 500 hours between changes (although a quick look at a 150 O&M Manual for an EB4-prefix machine indicated 1000 hours) is what the book says then a sample at 250 is absolutely essential. Also there may be distinct differences in what is contained in the machine sales literature compared to the recommendations in the O&M Manual.
Yep, they took a oil and antifreeze sample at 250 hrs on my 150, I am not so sure on how accurate the boys are at the SOS lab with samples, twice on my 140H on the results from the oil sample were told major engine failure, shut down, resampled the oil, green light everything is good, one of our sister shops did the 500hr oil change and sample on there 1 year old 140m got results back green light everything is great, day later the motor locked up, you think they would have picked something up in the sample when a rod was ready to go in the engine, that's why we test the samples for early detection that something is ready to go in your engine, 500 hrs is to much of a stretch not changing the oil, 1000hrs is just plain foolish, I don't care how advanced these new filter systems are, at 500hrs these filters are just filtering broken down oil regardless of what the manual say's.
Well they took my 150 AWD today to get the new plow and wing gear put on at Craig, got the fall grade all finished up on all my roads, so time to start preparing for the winter season, I will start on my chains tomorrow, my tires on the 150 are much wider than the 140H tires so some changes will be made, Winter is coming Guy's.
Did you change tire size or just brand? We used to run 14s. Went to 17.5s several years ago. Required buying new chains. We donated our old chains to a neighboring township that couldn't afford to buy new chains.
The factory tires on the new 150 AWD are wider then the tires my 140H has on it, about 4" wider, the cross chains will have to be longer to fit the tir
Yep. So you have went from 14s to 17.5s. You can buy all new chains cheaper than buying crossbars and trying to rebuild what you have. I prefer Peerless brand.
We have all the chain gear to build our own custom chains at our shop, ladder type, probably cheaper to buy a set though, I usually make up 6 chains and use those spider bungee's to keep them tight, two per wheel works the best.
I've never used bungeees. I don't understand the concept. Put the chains on properly and nothing is needed. No bungee is going to hold a chain tight against the tire that's not installed correctly. Might take up the slack at crawl speed. But the slack shouldn't be there in the first place. Everyone has a different concept. Do what works for you. Properly installed chains will never "crawl" on the tire. And never need anything additional to hold them.
People were recommending putting bungee's on tractor tire chains but all they did is pull the chains tight which caused them go down into the lugs on the tires which defeated the purpose of the chains. They work much better when they can flop slightly and self clean if they get packed with snow or mud. I basically put them as tight as I can manually and they work the best. One guy even suggested I had the wrong type of chains but had the Duo-Grip for ag tractors the same as his. Grader tires are even better for chains as the lugs are wider and much harder for the chains to get stuck down in between the lugs. Winter tires shouldn't have any problems if they're tight. Same with truck tires but you see lots of them with bungee's too.
Very well stated. I don't running any type of tightener. I run 2 link crossbar chains. If running 10+ mph I like to see the crossbars raise an inch or two above the tire. I've never lost a chain so that argument doesn't hold water to use tighteners either. I ran Michelin radials for years. They were bad about allowing the chain crossbars to go into the lug gaps. I'm currently running Bridgestone radials. They are much better about not doing that. With that said, I still prefer Michelin tires. Here's an example of the crossbars in the tire lug gap on Michelin tires.
That looks like some pretty serious snow.
The ladder type we use are famous for lifting the cross chain a couple of inches of the tire even when put on as tight as you can get them, chains will move on your tire till they get settled in than you can retighten, with our chain settup if the cross link is lifting off the tire then that cross link is being drug under your tire causing it to twist then eventually break, worst if you spin your tires with chains in a bad situation, the spider bungee's keep our chains tight and prevent the raising and twisting of the cross chain preventing a break, also you can travel faster down the road without hurting or your chains flying to pieces, if you notice some of your cross chains twisted when you take your chains off that's a sign that there to loose and being dragged under the tire.
Ovrszd we run a 4 link chain settup, I noticed on your tires that your cross links run on a angle across your tires, are they made to run that way or did they just twist on you? thanks for the pics.
Only time I ever broke cross chains were when I was trying to get that last little bit out of them and wearing them too thin. We use Peerless "heavy duty" chains. Haven't broke a cross chain in 15 years or more. Definitely not since we went to 17.5s and heavy duty chains. A bungee isn't capable of keeping a cross chain from twisting if that's a problem. But then I don't exactly know what a "spider bungee" is. Do you have a picture?
I think a spider bungee has a ring in the center with multiple bungee cords connected to the chains.
Dave, when all else fails Google it. You are right. Here's a pic of a spider bungee for semi tires.
Yep that's them, we use 2 per tire, we use the bottom of the barrel type for our chains, using the heavy duty type chains are not a option for me, just the lowest quality chain, would love to have heavy duty chains like yours. thanks
I totally understand budget constraints. Sounds like your gonna have to buy new chains. Check on the price difference, 2 link versus 4 link, heavy duty versus standard. When we changed from 14s to 17.5s we had a very, very good salesman. When we were setting up the machine and I said we wanted 17.5s he immediately said "you understand you are going to have to buy new chains?" Good salesman. Wish we still had him.
We just buy the supplies in bulk, the operators are expected to make and put together your own chains for their machine and keep them in good repair, I don't mind doing it at all.
I'm a one man show so I understand. Although the Township doesn't wear out enough chains to use the bulk build method. The chains I'll run this Winter are 6-8 years old, can't remember for sure. They are 50%. So I'll get a couple more Winters out of them. Have four new chains on standby. If you are running 4 link you might try to convince the boss to let you build a set of 2 link. More than doubles the traction. Minimizes slippage. When I need chains it's because I'm pushing the plow thru 6-8ft high drifts and using a wing.
Some people weld hardfacing on worn chains to get extra life out of them. It can last longer than the original chain material.
Those are some great pictures and a great job cleaning up, I love the V plow and wing for opening up drifted in roads, in our area if it calls for the V plow to be put on its serious mega snow and is going to be a fun long day, we used to use square cross link hard chain or ice chains some called them back in the day, man did they stick to the ice good, they don't use them anymore of course to pricey, in one of your pics of a drifted in road, years ago we would plow the fields on each side of the road to keep the main road from filling in, it works great.
That’s some deep snow there either it was warm and sticky snow or your v plow doesn’t scoure very good my township got a new balderson v plow when they got there new machine in 16 well worth the money for a new v plow. As far as chains go I run the regular bar style chains but I honestly haven’t needed to chain up in the last 10 years with the Michelin snow plus tires and 6 wheel drive makes a big difference.
Yeah, temps were around 30F that day. Snow was sticking to the plow real bad...... I've not had to use the plow the last two Winters. Haven't used it on this AWD machine at all. I see a lot of YouTube videos of graders using the snow tires and no chains. I'd like to try a set. I push a lot of dirt. I carry a dozer blade 90% of the time. I'm just a bit concerned how well they would work in those conditions?
The snow tires provide very good traction in dirt it’s just mud that they don’t work good in and really no tire works great in mud I think there a very good year round use tire only thing I dislike is they fill up with rocks so fenders definitely are nice to have.
Got my 150 back, all the plow gear is on her now, Making plugs for my stinger blades and just a few more things to do and I will be ready for winter works.
Are my eye's deceiving me, it looks like your wing is off your blade?
Yeah he has a home made wing on his moldboard but he’s down south and snow generally doesn’t stick around long down there like what we deal with can you post a picture of your snow equipment on your new 150?
Thanks, what ever works, Yep, I will post some pics when she's all ready, thanks
It's an old frame mount wing that's modified to fasten to the moldboard. A wing is used here to push drifted areas back. Not used to widen roadbeds in general. We'll average 30" of snow per Winter. A normal snow being 4-6". A rare snow of 12-20" occurs once every other Winter. Wind and non elevated roadbeds is our problem. With a 2-3" snow and 20-30 mph wind for 24 hours I'll have a dozen roads closed due to drifting. If this situation repeats a couple times I put on the wing. Here's an example of it's reach.
None if your neighbors better tick you off....You could bury them!!!
I'm Blessed with good residents in my Township. Not uncommon for them to meet me at the road in front of their houses with Coffee or Hot Chocolate and a donut. I open a few driveways of Senior Citizen residents that have no means to do it themselves. One particular resident who has died would come outside on his porch and stay there until I was done with his driveway and then wave real big in appreciation. Regardless of weather conditions or time of day/night. With that said, yeah, you have to use consideration with this wing. You can completely destroy a fence. Especially woven wire fence. In conjunction with the plow you can move a lot of material at once. Able to place the wing high and just rearward of the plow. Open the drift and push the excess back at the same time. It's a handy attachment. Puts a lot of load on the moldboard so must be used with consideration.
Must have a lot of side drift? Do you have lean wheels with it?
Yeah it side drifts some. Not as bad as you might think because I'm usually not cutting the snow loose from the ground and it's usually not old, packed snow that I'm trying to move. Don't have to lean the fronts. I rarely use it without the plow on so that weight helps the front stay where it's aimed. It's an attachment that I never want to use. But I'm damned glad I've got it when needed.
That's nice that you help senior citizens, I do this also, I'm not suppose to but I do it anyway, Hats off to you Oveszd, my only concern with your wing setup would be traveling through a busy town with lots of traffic, not sure if you can tuck it away enough to avoid some fool running into it, mine swings up and tucks in, i'm still wide but can get through traffic carefully. ps... Hot coffee and a donut are sure welcomed on a early cold morning.
I take care of 50 miles of gravel roads. I have 3 blocks of "town" driving to get from the grader shed to the edge of town. Then I'm always in the country with very low traffic numbers. If I push at night it's unusual to see anyone on the roads. My biggest obstacle is the occasional rural mail box. I'm very Blessed. I watch youtube videos of graders working in populated areas and cringe. Trying to work around vehicles parked in the streets, constantly going by driveways and clearing intersections. No thanks.
There was a grader on the news last year that did a hit and run on a couple cars on a city street. It wasn't one of the city graders but looked like the driver maybe fell asleep. There was enough room to make the turn but he wasn't paying attention to how far his blade stuck out. Never released which contractor but easy to do with traffic cam and time of day, etc.
People in cars and trucks are one of my biggest obstacles when plowing and grading, that's why I favor the nights for plowing, I can't count how many times someone in a vehicle put themselves in a dangerous situation thinking that they don't need to be careful around a working grader, that they own the road and you have to get out of the way, most times I break away from my road plowing or grading to avoid being run into by someone with not a lick of common sense, sometimes I just stop, we have alot of old army single lane bridges, different times I will be over half way across a longer version of these bridges and a vehicle would come on the other end and come right up to me expecting me to reverse back across the bridge with all my plow gear on, these bridges are tight to get onto and with a fully equipped grader are very close to the gross weight for that bridge, I just sit there listening to their horn and watching them signal me to back up, after a while they realize they are going to have lower themselves and have to move and reverse back off the bridge, I deal with this on a daily basis, A nice glass of rum and coke when I get home after a shift seems to help.
I forgot to mention the cars were parked in front of apartments and it was at about 2am and lots of room to miss the cars. Several years ago a grader operator got a DUI and last year I think an operator killed a pedestrian at an intersection. I think fatigue and plowing for exceptionally long periods needs to be looked into. I recall an operator saying he did 22 hours non stop!
I completely relate to this. I too prefer night plowing for three reasons. Time passes quickly because of tunnel vision limited by the lights, no distraction. Less traffic. I can see their headlights. I've been trying to bust thru a long drift with the plow. Hit it. Back up. Hit it. Back up. And had cars come in the tunnel with me and stop 10 feet from the back of the grader. What are they thinking!!!!!
Not in a grader but years ago was pulling my skid steer and it was too icy coming up a slight grade out of a strip mall and I'd just spin out. The plce I had to stop for traffic wouldn't allow me to move forward. A truck behind me backed up to let me try to get a run at the slope. It would have worked except every time I got enough.speed I'd have to stop because a car would come from a kind of hidden corner. About the 4th try I as I was taking a run another car pulled around the truck and in behind me. I started spinning and my truck and trailer rolled backwards with the ramps of the trailer hitting this idiot in the car. A few other cars had seen what was going on and drove around me or stayed behind the truck giving me room. It was about -25c and this woman comes up to my door wanting all my info. I said not here, I'll go in the medi-center. I think it t was over $$2000 damage and my insurance went up afterwards. Even my insurance agent said it's too bad you can't hold stupid people responsible.
Well i'm starting snow school next week, its a hands on training for new operators on our salt trucks, Fwd trucks, and graders, I help out every year to put on some real world training for the new operators, nothing you will find in a book, I will put on some iceblading info training for the new and older grader guys later on in the season when there's some ice to do some demo's. Winter is coming!!!
Excellent!!! I'm sure there will be a LOT of knowledge passed around!!! When I get to the point that I can't learn, I need to quit being an operator.
Every trade should be continuous learning. Know one knows it all but some try to fake it. The most humble usually have the most to offer the new generation. Some are threatened by the new generation though and want them to.learn the hard way.
Thanks, I don't mind helping, its nice getting together and sharing experiences good and bad, lots of old hands offering some dam good pointers to, I always come away with some great advice from some of the old hand sure helps me be a better operator, all you got to do is keep your dam mouth shut and listen. lol
Yes sir, you couldn't have explained it any better, we get lots of done it all guys but seem to cave when challenged.
Our County used to have a yearly meeting with all the Townships invited. It was an excellent exchange of information and ideas. Then we got some lazy County Commissioners that didn't have the energy to organize it so they stopped. We've now got a new Commissioner that is determined to restart those meetings. It's an opportunity to bring up issues and share solutions. For example, this past year one of my neighboring Townships that is financially in bad shape needed a grader. One of the board members went online and searched. He found a State Grant and applied. They received approval and purchased a $150,000 grader at no cost to the Township. That type of information will be shared at the next County meeting. Last week a neighboring Township board member called me and asked if I knew how to apply for that Grant? I gave him the contact information for the Board member that successfully applied. So there's a lot to share beyond the logistics of running a machine. Glad to see that you are involved. I'm guessing you'll get quizzed about your new machine as well.
Well I have most of my winter prep done on my 150 AWD, I am installing the studs in the front tires tomorrow, are mobile has yet to build my chain rack but he's getting to me, he also will wire in my led light for night plowing, hoping he will have these things addressed this week, the led light has made a huge difference for night plowing, it has 165000 lumens, It will be on its own switch for on and off, I will post some pics when she's all ready, be interested in members opinions.
I can't remember, does your 150 have LEDs lights, 18 of them? If my memory serves me right the LED option added $1,500 to the cost of the machine. Worth every penny. If so, I can't think you'll need additional lighting. I can actually see my moldboard better at night than I can in daytime. With the snow plow light brackets the four front lights are above my plow and clearly light the roadway. We have a chance of snow tonight/tomorrow but don't expect any ground cover. We are actually very dry here. My roads are horribly dusty with a lot of loose dry material on top. If our first snow is a heavy, wet one I'll have to be very careful to not push off my gravel.
No, they opted for the older style work lights on my 15OAWD, with Halogen main headlights which totally suck for seeing at night, we switched to led headlights on my 140h, man what a difference for night plowing, I guess it just goes to show that the person that spec my machine never sat or operated a grader in their life, we are expecting a foot of snow this coming Wed night for my area, the back roads will be soft.
I'll admit, I too was late to the game. This is the first machine we've had with LEDs. My good friends are very large farmers. One ride in their combine with LEDs at night convinced me. The Grader looks like something from outer space at night but total visibility all the way around the machine is the end result. My roads are very solid right now. We rarely get rain this late so I'll probably be on solid roads all Winter. Good luck with your first push. They are always the hardest for me.
Very nice lighting, the roads will be soft as heck for the first push, we just had some major rain storms and mild temps, the temps on the Atlantic coast flip flop till middle of Jan then the cold settles in, yesterday morning it was 65f with 2-3" of rain, last night and this morning 25f with a foot of snow coming, lol, going to be a long night.
I'll be thinking about you. Anxious to hear reports about your new machine. When pushing snow I run with the AWD engaged all the time. Percentage at zero. Just want the fronts to help steer and assist when the rears start to slip.
How do your LEDs go when it's blowing snow.? I heard comments somewhere regarding the fact that because they don't get hot like halogen lights the snow will not melt off the front of the lens.
The LED's we have on our other 140m and our plow trucks have a heated element in the lens to keep the snow from sticking to them.
We received two feet of snow in 7 hours, its still snowing hard this morning at shift end, but should taper off by noon, pretty much stuck to the pavement last night, plow trucks were having a hard time keeping up, back roads will be tonight.
Yep. All of mine are heated enough that you don't put your hand on them.
Thanks for the update. Keep us posted. I'm very Blessed to live in a rural area where the public appreciates the grader. I rarely have problems with traffic or impatient people. But then, there's always that one.....
The back roads were soft, you had to be really carful with the wing and plow digging in, I was steady on the hand pod control for the wing and plow adjusting, drug the main blade which helped filled in the gap between the plow and the wing spillage, the 150AWD pushed its way through 2ft of snow with ease, no chains required on this trip, our other 140m had to chain up to get through, studded front tires made a big difference on the steep hills, a little bit of front wheel spin than they would grab and away you go up the steep hills, I must say i'm impressed, this machine would climb trees fully chained up with front studded tires, time will tell though, icy slippery roads could be a game changer, never lost our damaged any of the studs, had a great night overall.
Great report!!!! Makes a long day plowing on soft roads!!!! Last year my last snow was wind blown fluff. I could easily go thru snow to the top of the tires without chains. I really like the AWD option.
Well all our hard work plowing the 2 ft of snow that fell here has gone on the wayside, a rain event has took everything, lol, I have never seen thunder and lighting this time of year, the weather has gone crazy, a day or to ago it was 16F, this morning its 64F and it rained hard with thunder and lighting all night, this flip flop weather is hard on the back roads and hard on my joints, they are forecasting another snow event in a weeks time, time to go over the 150AWD to make sure she's up to snuff, our mobile hopefully will get my chain rack finished and wire in my led light, could have used it the other night in the storm.
You just described the worst weather imaginable here in Missouri!!!! My roads would completely fall apart under the conditions you described. I only get 65T per mile of gravel per year. We are in huge temp swings here. But so far it's stayed dry. Next Wednesday we are supposed to be mid 70Fs, Thursday mid 40Fs. Still no measurable moisture forcast. Hope things calm down for you. Otherwise, going to be a long Winter.....
Yeah I hope so to, I have some washouts to fix tomorrow on the back roads, shouldn't take me to long, when that artic vortex starts pushing in the cold air from up north things will lock up then, but till then flip flop weather, this has been the worst I have seen it in a while.
65 Ton a mile is very low amount to really do anything with, we put 1000 ton a mile is the norm when we gravel, or a ton a meter, 1000 meters in a KM (KiloMeter)
Always interesting to see how much gravel everyone gets to work with all my roads are 22 to 24ft wide we pick 4 miles every year pull shoulders and rebuild the top and we put 3 inches of gravel on it really makes a big difference so I average 2053 tons a mile here’s a good chart i use when I do my hands on motor grader training for my local LTAP.
I always get mixed up with the metric system here in Canada, I am old school raised on the old scale which I like better, my correction, it would be 1600 tons per mile for us on the old scale, 1000 ton per Km on the metric scale, also the width of the road can change things for tonnage per mile, wider the road less distance for the allowable tonnage.
A County North of us gets 250T per mile per year. When they blade their roads they are blading loose gravel. When I blade I am blading dirt/gravel. I'd be content with that much. 1000T per mile is beyond my comprehension.
I always mess that up too. For perspective, our rate is 1 Ton per 80 Ft. A truck load, 17 Ton covers 1,360 foot of roadbed.......
Yeah, 1000ton Km is nice but the problem sometimes is the gravel they use is 1 point above being rejected, it may lay out nice at the time but after a few rain storms you end up with nothing but marbles, no fines, then your stuck with a mess, many many times I have had to dig down into the base and mix some dirt up into the new gravel to get it to harden up some what, I find crushed bank gravel way better than the crushed blasted rock for roads in this neck of the woods.
I guess to compare here on the prairie, we do roughly a third of our areas each year. The roads we do, they would average 250-300 yards per mile. Usually 10 trucks per mile, tandem with 4 axle wagon. I’m guessing, but 2000#’s per yard? 60000#’s/ 30 tons per truck so 300 tons per mile on the wider roads 30+ feet and 200 to 250 on the 24 to 30 footers maybe? Those numbers match up to what everybody else is using?
4 times as much as I get.
Thanks for sharing this
Our long range weather says 1-3" of snow New Year's day and another 1-3" that following night. May get to push a snow. Our gang is planning to do an off-road wheeling day at my farm that day. I'm torn between loyalties. I'll go with wheeling and no pushing.....
LOL, we do a fair amount of wheeling in this neck of the woods also.
You guys get gravel ??!!?? Annually !!??!! LOL
Barely, just barely.
Just the last couple of years, went a lot of years without.
Here's a few pics just before the storm
Here's a couple more,
Are those Sanvik cutters? We bought a set of Sanvik's 20 years ago. Only use them once or maybe twice a year to reclaim gravel. Replace tips when needed. Have held up real well.
Yes I believe they are called Sanvik's, we call them stingers, I use them year round for grading and in the winter for ice blading, in the winter I remove every second tip and put a plug in the socket, the machine pushes through and breaks ice alot easier with every second one removed, I get around 4 years out of a set of the blades replacing the stinger tips as I need to, I move the tips around to get the most wear out of them before replacing them.
Very good post. We rarely get bad ice. I've used mine 2 or 3 times on ice. Never thought about removing tips.
Well I thought I would give everyone a update on my new 150AWD, I must say the machine has worked very well this winter, no problems what's so ever, the studding of the front tires were a great improvement on icy roads, just removed them for to be used next year, very surprised how well they held up, very little wear, will get next season out of them easy, hopefully I do not jinx myself for saying this, lol, spring grading has started.
Glad things are going well for you!!!! When my neighboring Township gets a few hours on their new 150AWD I'll visit with them and pass on their experiences. Hoping to also get a couple hours seat time and will report that if it happens.
I haven't got a chance to run the 150MAWD yet. But was visiting with the operator a couple days ago. They have only put 50 hours on it so far. No problems of any kind. He was complaining about the lack of power. Especially when roading the machine. I recommended using the AWD when moving heavy material or when grading hills. Point being to get the advantage of the HP boost. This is the first AWD machine he's ran. He wasn't in favor of doing that at all. I told him I always use AWD when moving heavy material or doing any type of dirt work. And us it when maintaining gravel in steep hill terrain. JD does not do the HP gain thing. If they did, I'd use AWD most of the time to benefit from that. I can also see why he thinks it's powerless if not using AWD. Still hope to get some seat time in the machine this Summer.
What's the sense of having AWD if you're not going to use it? Sounds like that operator needs to get with the times. The county that bought it could have saved a lot of money not getting AWD.
I couldn't believe how much more productive AWD made a grader until I ran one with it. Now I wouldn't want to be without it. I use it when I need it just like ovrszd.
I find my 150AWD seems to be balanced to use the AWD when grading, just using the rear wheels to me feels like they break traction to easy, I'm comparing this to my H series which was balanced more for the rears to maintain traction where it was not AWD, It may not be the case but feels like that way to me, the only thing about using AWD all the time is the amount of fuel, these new 150AWD's are thirsty in AWD when you push them, I'm looking forward to ditching season when things get a bit drier, I will soon find out what my 150AWD won't do.
I own seven 4WD vehicles. I use that feature when it's needed. In reference to JD's system. In the case of AWD it's different in the sense of the technological intelligence of the system. With the gain setting on zero it will function with little adverse effect. Almost no notice of HP required. Put the machine in a wheel slippage situation and that changes. For example, moving forward under load, AWD engaged, gain at zero. Then advance the gain to a more positive number. You can easily hear the HP needed. More gain, more HP needed. So it can be used at zero gain with minimal wear on the machine. A neighboring township operator runs his JD with AWD engaged all the time. I don't. I see no gain in doing so. I use it when I feel it increases productivity. In reference to CAT's system. 20/80 or other operators of their system can better speak to when it should or should not be used. I have learned in this thread that CAT's system is quite a bit different than JD's. Thus the need for the HP boost when AWD is engaged. Having no seat time, and just going by statements made by operators, I think I'd use the AWD on a CAT machine more. Simply to benefit from the 35HP gain. I'm anxious to run one to experiment with it. With all that said, I'm not ready to support your statement above.
I think I've made this comment before. But it's worth revisiting. My Township has purchased 8 new machines since I've been their operator. The first 7 trades I advised them to not spend the extra $25K for AWD. I didn't think it was a valued option. When we traded for our current machine we were able to get AWD for $10K. I suggested it would be a cost effective time to try it. After I had put 100 hours on the machine I told the Township Board that I had been wrong. The productivity gain is worth every penny of purchase cost. As the past 3 years have went by I have repeatedly reinforced to the Board that it was an excellent expenditure. Pointing out that I have pushed snow 10 times. Only using the chains 1 time. I run approximately 100 miles each time I push snow. That's 900 miles of savings on chain wear alone.
Very good points. I wonder if fuel consumption is part of the reason CAT detunes when not using AWD?? I don't notice any difference in fuel economy with JD. But again, I believe the two systems are designed very differently. My friend hasn't used AWD enough to notice any of the advantages. All he comments on is lack of power. I don't think he's realized the benefit of using AWD more to utilize the HP boost. I have a constant smile on my face when ditching or sloping banks with AWD. I can also go into soft, muddy areas that I had to avoid with only tandem drive. Once again, productivity is so much greater with AWD. Especially when using the front dozer blade.
I was just making a rhetorical statement. My own opinion would be if you have it, use it.
Where i'm still getting use to the AWD I'm glad you mentioned the gain option for the front wheels, I am still experimenting with the gain when ditching and in muddy conditions and last winter on the ice, when cutting a hard road I have been using about 10-15% gain and that seems to be about right for me, you just have to be careful about the amount of material you pull in this setting, you can easily pull more than you bargained for. lol, in muddy conditions with a solid base I up the gain maybe 25% or a bit more, you can now hear the hydraulics coming on in the front drives more, this amount of gain helps keeps your front end pulling strait or helps recovers a slip, still experimenting in the ditches but the AWD is a big improvement but be careful it can get you in trouble to, lol.
With AWD, I can side shift my table two holes, extend my blade fully to the right, blade lift left end, blade lower right end into a shallow ditch, and clean the ditch with all 6 wheels in the road. Add 20% gain and the front tires will hold themselves in the roadway without being dragged into the ditch. Couldn't do that with tandem drive only. Or to open a silted ditch so it can drain, articulate to the left, drop the right front tire into the ditch, add maximum gain in AWD, move forward. The front tire in the ditch will spin in the mud and open a drain trench in the ditch so it can drain and dry out.
Something that occurs little more often now with my 150AWD is my front drives stop working, seems to do this right when you need them the most, rear wheels spinning but no help from the front drives, you have to reset the switch, the green activation light is still on but no front drives till you reset the switch, has anyone else have this happen with the Cat AWD, wondering why its doing this.
That’s strange I operate a 2016 and 2017 140M3 and have never had that happen to me that definitely would not be good for it to do that when you need it wonder if it’s a wiring problem I’d definitely have dealer in the loop and hopefully they have a solution for your problem.
Yep. Sounds like an electrical problem. I have a dozer blade on the front. I can cause my front tires to quit spinning if pushing a heavy load and slightly raise the dozer blade while pushing. The fronts are still pulling. They are just getting so much traction that they won't "spin" at the same rate as the rears are. I have noticed this a couple times when pushing with poor traction.
Your machine appears to have been built on Friday the 13th. Maybe you'll get royalties from the movie???
LOL
When I first got the machine when you activated the front drives they were on and would bounce your machine with them digging in, when you turned the gain up you could here the hydraulics on the drives increase, not so any more, not all the time but every now and then, there's nothing I can do to really get the drives to kick out its sporadic, seems just when you need it the most and shows no code, our sister shop to the east has a new 140AWD that does the same thing, they have to turn off then on again to get them to engage, another of our shops to the west has a new 150AWD like mine and has had to replace 3 sensors for the front drives so far, Mother Cat has been notified.
Yeah mine kinda does that, what I notice is when they are going to stop working it seems they spin abit then stop , spin again then just stop working all together till I reset the switch, then both front wheels fully engage, this has happens more in soft conditions.
Put on some grader training in Cape Breton for a week, mostly on road recovery and ditching, had two new operators to share some info with, they were very eager to learn, they both had some seat time but were very misinformed on operating a grader, which happens, operators with bad habits showing them what to do, they listened very well and came away from the training with a new outlook on grading roads, at the end of the training they accomplished 4000meters of road recovery and 8000meters of ditching in about 3.5 days, not bad for two operators that had a hard time spreading a windrow of pure class A at the beginning of the training, very proud of them
A good instructor can really motivate those who want to learn. They had very good instructors when I took my apprenticeship but some of them were a little lazy and I remember one of them who could almost put the whole class to sleep. Just the way he talked and explained things made it very boring.
What's important is to figure out the new operators learning curve, some get it right away and some don't, my job is to figure out how a new operator learns and see things, that way I can put what I want them to do in a way that they understand plus keeping them motivated, there is lot's of steps and moves they have to absorb, having lot's of patience helps.
For sure. I'd bet the new operators really appreciate that you realize everybody learns and comprehends things a little differently. That's the problem with a lot of teachers in grade school. 30% of the class understands so the teacher just keeps on going while the rest of class is always playing catch up. I never had very good handwriting unless I went really slow and I know why. I was sick the day the grade 3 teacher taught everyone how to hold a pen. It's one of those things you don't really think of at the time but later on you realize the teacher failed to catch you up on an important lesson. You wouldn't know because you weren't there that day. At least my writing is readable unlike some I've seen.
I've never been an instructor. But I've had the opportunity to be an informer several times. Mostly with existing operators that without even knowing it are susceptible to learning a new trick or two. One such operator is a friend of mine that I'll visit with 3-4 times a year. I've know him all my life. You can't tell him anything. You have to lead him to water and then patiently wait for him to drink. Here's an example. Several years ago he asked me if I had trouble with my engine air filter plugging with snow dust? I said nope, haven't since JD started using an ejector system on the air intake. He was running a machine just like mine. He said I have to carry a spare filter and after a couple hours swap them and carry the plugged one in the cab so it'll thaw out to be reused. I said your ejector isn't working. He said no that's not the problem. I said are you sure? He said yeah. I said it's easy to remove it from the air intake stack and reach inside to make sure it's free and spinning. I then realized by the look on his face he had no idea how the ejector worked.... He repeated, that's not the problem. The conversation ended. Couple months later I was driving by his grader shed and he was there. I stopped. Asked if he figured out the air filter problem? He said nope, still carrying a spare filter. I asked if he checked the ejector. He again gave me that look and said no. I asked to borrow his pliers. Crawled up on the grader and removed the ejector. Stuck my hand in and it was frozen solid, wouldn't turn. I showed this to him and said he needed to see about getting a new one. He again gave me that look and said okay. Couple months later I saw him at the gas station. He immediately started a conversation about the air filter. Proudly stated that he had fixed the problem by replacing the ejector. No thank you. No appreciation. No, if you ever need anything let me know. Just self pride in his accomplishment. I always feel bad for people like that. Their own ego gets in the way of their personal improvement. Residents in his township complain about him all the time.
Here's another example with the same guy. Couple years ago I was visiting with him in the Winter. In conversation he asked if I had problems keeping my windows clear in the Winter when pushing snow? I said not really. As the day or night progresses I might change the heater setting or divert the air flow a different direction. I try to keep my windows cold most of the time and not cause snow dust to melt and stick to the glass. He said, not on the outside, I'm talking about the inside. Again I said no. He said my cab interior is so wet that I have trouble getting the door open the next day after it sits and gets cold. He said everything inside the cab is covered in frost. I have to get the machine cranked and let it run for 30 minutes to get everything thawed so I can run...... I said your AC isn't working. He said no that's not the problem, I'm talking about the heater. I said yeah, your AC isn't working. He gave me that look and said what does the AC have to do with the heater? I said I never turn off the AC compressor. Never. Adjust the temp in the cab with the heat control. Always run the AC to keep the cab air dry. He gave me that look and changed the subject. JD uses a separate button to activate the AC. Then you control the heat level with a turn knob. Fan speed with a separate knob. Month or so ago I asked him how the heater situation was in his cab? He said no problems and changed the subject. He wasn't able to admit that he didn't know to always run the AC even though he's ran a grader for 15 years. I try to always have an open mind. My Mom told me many, many times, you'll learn more listening than you ever will talking.
I can't stand people that dismiss you but then take credit for what they learned from you or you suggested. Some people just want to disagree with you because they think they know more. I remember 1 apprentice I was working with who just got back from his 1st year schooling. He thought he knew it all and instead of working with me thought he was going to show me better ways to do things. I just kind of shook my head and let him do his thing... until he had an idea that he thought would save a lot of time. It would have required a lot of rework to correct. Half way through he realized why his way wouldn't have worked. He was pretty humbled after that and I think realized why he was working with more experienced tradesmen. He never acknowledged that he was wrong but you could tell. He wasn't nearly as gung ho that he knew it all.
There is all kinds out there, I have been invited to sit in on a 3 day grader training session put on by another district for some new operators, this is there first time ever putting on road recovery and ditching training, I have never seen that district do any road recovery or ditching other than with a hoe, thinking they were watching a lot of youtube vids lately on it, should be interesting to say the least.
Give us an update on how that goes. Sounds like that district is trying to improve. Also sounds like they respect your knowledge and experience. You'll be an asset to them for sure.
Well the training went as I expected, where I was not Hosting the training and there to help out, the Instructor for that area USED to run a grader 10-15 years ago, did not have much experience on the new stuff, he was used to a straight frame old champion, lol, anyway he kept getting his ass in the air every time I tried to help the new operators it seemed, the new operators came away from that training totally confused, kinda sad, the new guy's had real potential, I did show them a few moves that help them, i'm glad for that and they were happy, this happens from time to time, Instructors that are hired by the department that have alot of experience written down on their Resume's but when asked to perform the tasks they are suppose to and were hired on based on those claims were finally called on it, and can't do the job, I do what I do on a voluntary basis to help and share info to help new operators, I learn everyday to.
Most " instructors " have the gift of the gab and that's all. The real sad part is that those who flunked these courses today will become the instructors of tomorrow.
Equipment has come a long ways in the last 15 years, especially graders. That guy can come and run my old Champion if he wants.
LOL, this does happen
The guy was nice enough but as a hired equipment trainer there are so many pieces of gear they have to train operators on that it would be hard to stay sharp on just one over the years, being away from just running a grader everyday you would loose your ability to remain connected with the machine, you would still have the concept of grading but your capability to operate would be at a loss, like you said lots has changed, lol, he would probably love to run your Champion.
Well my old baby 140H the one pictured in my Avatar has laid down, she drop a couple of valves last week and caused some internal damage also, over 15000 hrs, motor has never been touched, they are putting a new Cat reman in her where she is in such good shape, she gave me hours of reliability and helped me learn, what a great grader it has been and still is.
Those who can, do Those who can't do, teach Those who can't teach, administrate Or the Peter Principal says about the same thing: "In any hierarchical organization, a person will rise to their level of incompetence, and remain there.