Looking at trading in my two 2004 D6 tractors on a brand new machine. Anyone out there own one of the new CAT D6 tractors that can comment on the likes and dislikes on them. I would be getting a full cab , full forestry machine with guards, winch, sweeps, LGP, etc....my old D6's and still going strong but I wanted to upgrade prior to replacing the undercarriages on both and my CAT dealer told me a rebuild of the motors on both is only a couple of k hours away....all thoughts welcome on going new or running my old tractors straight into the ground....I seem to always struggle at this point in my equipment s life. I can keep going until my current machines are worth nothing or trade them while they still have decent value. I have done it both ways but really can't say what option is best....I have zero experience on the new machines...
I have no experience of the new D6s (especially with all the TIER 4 crap that they have on them nowadays) but you need to ask youself this IMO. How many hours do your existing tractors have on them and how much would you have to invest in them to bring them up to snuff in the medium-to-long term (undercarriage + engine/other component rebuilds at the very least by the sound of it) and how would expending that amount of cash compare with the cost of buying new minus whatever trade-in you go for the existing machines..? Would that make economic sense..? Are there any other factors to take into account such as getting credit for emission upgrades when doing public works contracts that might sway the calculation one way or another..? To give you an idea we set the life of our large tractors at 80,000+ hours until disposal and had them rebuilt literally ad infinitum provided the chassis was still good and crack free because everything else is a bolt-on. Another thought. Does Cat have a Certified Rebuild program for your existing D6 model..? A CCR would effectively give you a new machine (with new S/N) complete with a new machine warranty for about 60-65% of the current cost of buying the latest model of the same machine new.
Thank you very much Nige. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to give me your in sight. You have given me allot to think about. It's a big deal for me involving a enough hard earned cash to make me stop , take a long deep breath and hope someone like yourself can offer a solid platform to make my call from. Thank you again Sir for taking the time to offer your knowledge. I appreciate it....thank you. I'll let you know I decide. I like the sounds of the CCR program. The new tier 4 crap scares me a bit if I'm honest... Farmer..
My wife works at a large sand pit . They had Altorfer rebuild there big loader for half the money of a new machine . Total strip ,. engine , trans , axles , . Half the price of new . 250,000$
I fail to understand why owners look to replace equipment just because it's getting to the point where components need rebuilding. When you think about it so long as the chassis & structures which are the really expensive parts of the machine are in good order then everything else is either a bolt-on part or is a rebuildable component. Check this out, especially Page 10 where it lists the models to which the program applies ......... https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10505781 Just to make it clear the Certified Rebuild (CCR) program gives a new Serial Number and a new machine warranty. The Certified Power Train (CPT) Rebuild also gets a warranty but not the same as a new machine and original Serial number is retained.
What D6 are we talking about trading/repairing and/or buying D6k, D6N or D6R/T ?
I am looking at purchasing a brand new CAT D6K2. Full forestry package tractor, LGP, sweeps, winch etc....and am attempting weigh the advantages of a full CCR on both of my 2094 tractors equipped the same as I would the new tractor.The decision is now to trade the two I presently own today while they still have value or simply do a complete CCR as Nige suggests on those two I have and forgo the purchase of a new tractor all together...My 2004 tractors are due for complete undercarriage replacement and are within a few K hours from a complete motor overhaul/rebuild. I always struggle at this point in my equipment s life on which way to go. I have actually done both in the past and either way has its pluses and minuses. I have not operated the current D6 tier machines and was wondering if any users here could comment on what they think of the new D6 tractors. 2004 to 2016 is a pretty good chunk of time do I am sure things have improved from what I have run for the last 12 years or do. Neither of my two machines owe me anything, they have been paid for for many years and have provided me with very dependable trouble ownership. I am very pleased with them and would expect nothing less from CAT current offering but it's always a good idea to poll sone alternate opinions. Nige has offered me do great ideas on how he would look at it and his thoughts which has already helped me greatly as I have asked my dealer to put a number on two compleye CCR on my current machines, honestly an option I didn't even consider until he made mention of it...Dome really talented men here with solid advise ...pkease feel free to offer your thoughts as I am open yo all discussion on the matter. Thanks in advance for your time. Farmer
One other thing to look at is the tax ramifications of the deal. They have the laws written now to reward buying new by offering accelerated depreciation which helps to offset what you pay in income taxes. On the CCR, you would need to capitalize those costs and depreciate it normally. That is still not a deal killer, it all depends on your personal tax situation which you can run by your tax preparer to explain in more detail. Personally I'd look into the CCR since the tractors have no debt. At the same time, I'd make sure these tractors didn't have an inherent weakness with them before I did it. What I mean by that is a known defect like the HEUI pump system that did not have the best reputation. Sounds like they gave good service since new though, so probably not relevant in this case.
From engine experience more than anything, I agree with the above that Tier 4 is really as bad as they say and to stay away from it if you can. Maintenance and repair are much more expensive and they do not have the emissions components built for the long life you expect from this type of machinery. One additional point I would like to stress is that most Tier 4 products use substantially more fuel than comparable past models so there is another additional expense. The certified rebuild sounds like a good option if you are looking to spend real money, or if it makes economic sense to just do repairs as necessary. Maybe they will figure out a better way to do the low emissions stuff in the future but they have been attempting it for 8 years plus now and it does not seem to be getting any better.
The Tier 4 cat machines are still far from trouble free. Before makeing a choice I would recommend going to a class on tier 4. The Tier 4 stuff is going to change how mechine s are maintained in the future. They are not budget busters yet but I haven't seen any with much over 10000 hours. We like to get 25000 to 30000 hours on a 6 size dozer.
What D6 do you have now , N or R? How many hours on them. If you have a couple thousand ours a piece left why not run them. If they were maintained why would you worry about them. Has the u/c been measured. I've never seen a tractor loose an engine , u/c and trans at the same time.
Agreed, but if the owner knows it needs attention to all those components why not take the machine right down to the frame and start again all at one hit..? If the business cash flow depends on a machine or fleet of machines being reliable then doing all the needed work at one time could pay dividends. the time needed to do a CCR also needs factoring in to the equation. Can you afford to do without a machine for the time it takes to do the overhaul which would probably be about 4-6 weeks depending on the dealer..?
Perhaps a rental should be calculated in to the CCR cost for the duration of the rebuild.
Or better still a loaner from the dealer's rental fleet for a good customer shouldn't be out of the question either.
Nige, did you say 80,000 hrs? How many years would it take to put that many hours on a machine and what type of equipment are you referring to? I've always wondered what happens with bigger equipment and how long it can last. Also how many hours would you say before doing a CAT CCR?
80k hours for tracked equipment, 120k hours for trucks. At around 7k hours per year (24/7/365) that would equate to about 11-12 years for the former and 16-18 years for the latter. How many hours before a CCR is the $64,000 question. We would probably look at a CPT rebuild at the end of 1st & 2nd life and maybe even 3rd life, then a CCR after that. Then repeat the process up to total operating life of the machine. It all depends how the hours between rebuilds divide into the total operating life of the machine. We were rebuilding D9s at 12-13k hours and D10s at around 15-16k. On a smaller model a CCR might come earlier in the life of the machine relatively-speaking. To the OP. Ask your dealer to price you a Certified Power Train (CPT) rebuild in addition to a CCR and see how the costs stack up between the two.
How many hours on these "almost time to rebuild engines"? Are they using oil? Has Cat done a blow-by test? How about oil samples, what do they say? If you are showing elevated levels of lead/tin and copper, maybe a set of bearings is in order. As good of a relationship as a customer may think they have with their dealer, my opinion is the dealer is ALWAYS going to have Mother Cat's best interest in mind. Frankly, to make a statement that your engine has 2000 hrs left either means it's literally falling apart as we speak, or they have no idea and are basing their claim on the law of averages. It's your machine. You should have the best idea about the shape it's in.
Nige, that's interesting stuff. I wonder if more company's will start refurbing old equipment now that the tier4 stuff is everywhere. I traded my farm tractor last year and while I got pretty much the exact same tractor the new one is a tier 4 machine. Not the end of the world but can be a pain at times, definitely uses more fuel, and I'm sure up keep cost will be higher. I think if I was the OP I would rent a new machine for a week or two to see if there was any real difference in performance and then look at the bottom line between new, used, and CCR. It's crazy how much equipment cost have gone up in the last 5 years.
I haven't seen anyone rebuild anything smaller than a D9 for years. The old rule was that the cost of a total rebuild should be no more than sixty five percent of a new machine and you should get at least sixty five percent of the life of a new machine. The reality is that the cost of labor is about the same for a D6 as it is for a D9. The other issue is the warranty costs and time period. You usually won't get the new machine warranty with the rebuild. The other thought is are they rebuilding your major components are installing reman components from the factory. I've had my head aches plenty with reman engines and transmissions. The scheduling also come to mind. I haven't seen a rebuild go on the truck back to the job on time for years. It always takes longer and costs more than the initial estimate. What I have looked at in the past was the kind of operation you are running. Mining pays to have a rebuild program because you generally work twenty four/seven and hours accumulate like flood water. You have big shops with lots of personnel and enough spare machines to take of the slack of a downed one for a major. Some construction programs might be close to that but most can stand some down time if a machine has a hiccup. Most of the forestry people run real thin nowadays and can't take much down time so a lot of them run new for the most part. I would take a look at your utilization on your current machines as part of your decision. Do they work 40 a week and 52 weeks a year? Do you have to two shift? How much do they sit without a job to charge against? If one goes down what are the other charges you would have to pay, crew go home, penalties for late completion and so on. The Tier 4 stuff is here to stay and everyone is going to have to get used to it. I know some that have used a cleaner fleet as a lever to win a thin contract or two. You haven't said how old your machines are but at some point we are going to be told that if your machine doesn't meet standards for emissions you are not going to be able to use it on a commercial contract. That goes for mining, forestry, agriculture and construction. Good Luck!
John C, if it ever really comes to that, nobody is going to give a **** anyway, because we will have become full-commie. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Yair . . . A little O/T but I think I may have mentioned in an old thread about a local small contractor here who had a tidy scrub cab Komatsu 65. He had his own float and mostly worked within the shire and by all accounts was doing pretty good. He told me the tractor was all paid out and had set a month aside to go through the finals and give her a good clean up and a paint . . . about then he won a hundred grand or so in a lottery and splurged out on a new hi-track six with all the trimmings just as things got tight. It didn't end well but I suppose he spent his last few days in business working in air conditioned comfort. The crazy thing was there was customer resistance and he was struggling to get ten bucks an hour more for the Cat . . . around here there is no premium for new gear with shiny paint Cheers.
Ain't that the truth. I'm real happy to own all my equipment outright and I don't give a dam what the market does. One peace has bugger all market value but still makes good money when it works so I guess it will be reincarnated in China when the time comes. There is no way in todays economy I'd buy new, for it's just to iffy.
I don't want to take isue with you John but we were looking for 95+% of original life on rebuilds - at least to the until next rebuild anyway. I agree that laour hours cost the same whatever size of machine your're working on but working on a smaller machine is going to need less hours, not necessarily in proportion to size but at least somewhere close.
I will be doing a complete CCR plus on both tractors. I will be getting back two basically brand new machines for all intents and purposes. I added a few other items to the basic CCR , like cab being totally rebuilt, seat, winches will be rebuilt, replace all hydro hoses etc. On top of the CCR on my original tractors I will be getting a brand new D6 machine to add to my fleet....the new machine will be delivered in a few weeks and both of my original tractors have already been delivered to CAT and they have started the CCR process ..... This approach will allow me time in a brand new tractor and the tax incentives of buying new and then I can decide on the two others once they are returned to me. The CCR program is roughly less than half the cost of buying new for those of you considering that as an option.. Thanks to everyone and a special thanks to Nige on his valuable advise to consider the CCR option.. Farmer
I hope you're going to have the whole process documented in photos. It should make for good viewing. As an aside I was always under the impression that a CCR included a complete re-hosing of the machine (hydraulic, fuel, coolant, heater/aircon, and air intake) and a new operator's seat. Regarding the cab AFAIK all new switches were included, as were all new louvres for the aircon/heater system but cab trim panels were not. This may not be the case on smaller machines. If you have a seating choice consider the installation of air suspension seats if you don't already have them and if they are available for your particular model.
Al lthe way through this thread I still did not see what model D-6 pafarmer had, but I am sure he will be glad to have made the rebuild choice once some time accumulates on the new tier(tear) 4 machine. I have heard nothing good about the new ones, and have experienced it firsthand. I had a tier 4 D-6T on rent, and my first impression was great, but a half hour later, it went into regen mode, and would hardly push over a healthy anthill. The tractor would loose engine speed, and all power went away. It ran that way for a half hour or so, then was fine, but an hour of so later it did the same thing. It was next to useless during the time in regen. I am keeping all of my old machines and rebuilding as I can afford to. I will have to add some newer ones sometime, but hope to be able to put off tier 4 long enough for some of the many bugs to get sorted out. I have done rebuilds before, not full CCR, but close, and have been very happy with the results. I plan on more of the same, as new replacement is not very attractive to me at this time due to the emissions and electronics, the 2 Achilles heels of new iron. Structural and mechanical systems on the new Cat iron is the best ever, but electrical and emissions are causing more downtime and repair cost than anything else. For my newer machines, electrical repairs are running more per hour than undercarriage replacement, and the emissions systems are even worse.
My point earlier is that they have been building these things, in trucks anyway, since 2007 and they are still not figured out. If they cannot figure it out in 9 years, when are they ever?
I to hope that the rebuilds can be documented. Sounds like a great thread. What kind of a down time will the rebuilds take?
I would have said the same thing about emissions in gas engine cars in the late 70's and early 80's, they didn't seem to have a clue how to build a good engine anymore. By the 90's it seemed to work fine, and now we've forgotten all about the smog junk. Hopefully these bad years won't last too much longer?
Sounds like a good plan, post some pictures of them before they get rebuilt if you get a chance, be interesting to see what shape they were in before.
Nige, isn't the CCR going to cost the same regardless of the shape the machine is in, within reason, of course? Example being the rebuild would cost the same with undercarriage at 10% as it would at 30%? Engine condition wouldn't matter unless it was missing a rod, or some part thereof?
That would make perfect sense to me as well. A full build is just that, a full rebuild. With that in mind I agree that the amount of wear and tear of any particular system or subsystem would be a mute point in terms of cost....within reason as you mentioned. I never thought to ask them for the CCR to be documented. I will ask if that would possible and if it in reason on terms of cost I have them do that so everyone here, including myself can see exactly what work is performed. I promised not to rush them if I could have the new machine in my hands within a week or two however I will ask what the normal CCR takes in terms of time to complete on a small tractor such as a D6....this is the first time I have ever had this option used and of it goes well as it was described!I can see this being my preferred course of action in the future. The machine will be returned to me with a new serial number so the actual work being completed is very extensive...this is going to be interesting to see how everything turns Out. I was basically promised a new machine inside and out ....
The point of my question was this: Are the rails good for another season, or do they need to be changed out now, and is 2000 hrs less than what you'll put on it this season? I'm sure I'm not alone here, my question is if these machines would have ran another season with only expected and marginal unexpected maintenance costs, if you're going to do a CCR, why not run them out??
I was thinking the same thing. If that is the case, I would be inclned to run it out. I don't know what the hourly rates are in the OP's neck of the woods but, for easy figuring, use $100/ HR. So, 2000 hrs could produce a minium of $200,000 gross income. Realistically it's probably more like $150-175 /HR. On the other hand, if his U/C is already ran out then I think it would make the decision alot more difficult. Just my $.02
Photographic documentation of a CCR was SOP at every dealer I ever had contact with. They used it as a marketing tool to generate further work. Which is why I was more than a little surprised when you mentioned having to cough up extra for a new operator seat & re-hosing. Did you see my comment about the air suspension seat as an upgrade if the tractors don't already have them..? Shimmy, On the face of it your thoughts about the undercarriage have merit. However you have to remember that all the parts removed from the machine during the CCR are returned to the customer along with the machine at the end of the process. Therefore there's no reason why the customer can't store all the part-worn undercarriage components and use them at some time in the future. Let's face it even things 2nd-hand hydraulic hoses have their potential uses if they are correctly stored. There should also be a huge great bin of old nuts & bolts come back with the machine because pretty much every fastener will be replaced with new.
Cat are actively moving away from the mechanical suspension seats. The last, maybe three seats we have replaced, there has been a direct part number replacement from mechanical suspension to air suspension and the cost is approaching a thousand dollars cheaper as well.
As far as I'm concerned air-suspended seats in track-type tractors are the mutts nuts, especially for the operator. I know a lot of machines already have a branch in the wiring harness that terminates behind the seat to connect to the suspension mechanism air compressor. What happens in the case of a machine that doesn't have dedicated power nearby..?
I suppose you have to wire one in. We upgraded one late last year which was a 2004 D6R AKA and that had the wiring already there. *Edit D8R.*
I did see your comment on the seat Nige and have taken action in that direction. They will both get upgraded seat, panels changed in the cab etc.....An air suspension seat will be added...The items I will be coughing up more on were not there to begin with if you follow me:bash
pafarmer, rebuilding an older machine seems like a good option to me (if the price is right). Wondering what series your current 6's are, how long did you run them, and how many hours do they have. Downtime becomes a big deal when you have several employees and and can be a major factor when deciding whether or not to upgrade equipment.
And downtime caused by new technology (tier IV) only exacerbates the problem. On that note PAFarmer, there will be no mandatory emission upgrades on the CCR, correct?
Both of my current tractors are 2004 D6R's....50K plus hours each. Hard hours in the woods of the Eastern USA....many winters, thick heavy mud and constant abuse. We run both of these tractors over 4 K hours annually...neither machine needs to be brought up to anything past it's original equipment in terms of emissions unless I choose to bring them past what they were originally. Obviously, I do not want that because of the added cost of doing so and other obvious reasons. Both machines would more than likely go another 10 K or more with little trouble but experience has taught me to not wait until any piece of equipment is nickel and dimming me to death. I simply can't afford any downtime so I find it prudent to replace it, rebuild it or get rid of it way before any of those scenario's present themselves. Our contracts are set up in such a way that if I am not done when I say I am going to be I pay a penalty or we are on progress payments that dictate bonuses for being on time or ahead of where I say I'll be...in other words I can't afford not to rebuild, buy new or otherwise if you are following my explanation of my business and how it runs....I don't fall in love with my tractors, they are simply a means to an end. I do what is best to keep paycheck coming in to my men on a consistent basis, If it means spending money on equipment than that's what I need to do before it's down and there is no plan in place of a long wait time for something to get repaired....off to the woods for a few hours now...
It's also worth pointing out (if I understand the calculations correctly) that for the price of 2 new tractors you're going to get 3; two rebuilds that ought to be just as good as they were when they were new, plus a new one. That has to be quite attractive relatively speaking .......
How many engines and undercarriage replacements have these tractors had? Just curious, according to your dealer claiming they are 2K away from rebuild, are they averaging 16-17K hours, and they're ready for number 4? If so, those tractors have probably earned a Mother Cat Spa treatment.
Yes Nige, it's a pretty good deal for me for sure... These tractors are the backbone of the operation. Wish I could afford three more on top of these three. The work is here for them that for sure....it's always a fine line for me to grow bigger again.. I once had a very large operation but scaled back quite a bit in the recent past because all I did was work and chase business. and one day I found out someone needed me more than I could have ever imagined. also as I grow older and wiser I slowed down and choose to life a little and spend time with my family while I still could and am much happier and healthier for it..
What I am looking forward to the most from the CCR process is the upgraded seat. I stand 6'4" and weigh in at 265. The old base mechanical seat was quite wore and the machine would beat us to death in a days time. I upgraded the seating in both machines. Can anyone comment on the air suspension seat ? I asked for the best seat they had and that money can buy to be installed in both machines and assume it the heated and air suspension. My CAT CTL's have heated , air suspension seats in them and I can't say it enough that they are by far the best seat I have ever had the opportunity to use in a peice of equipment. I tried looking up aftermarket construction equipment seating but really didn't find anything earth scattering out there on the market today....All inputs welcome....
Ask the dealer what Part Number of seat they are installing. I can soon tell you whether it has heat or not. TBH I'm not sure that TTT seats have heat unless there are some upgrades that have taken place over the past year or so that I'm not aware of.
Our new d10t and 8t seats are very comfy and they are the air seats that came in the machines new.
If they're not heated take them to your local auto alarm/ car starter/ accessory dealer. They install them all the time.
Providing a suitable power supply for the heating elements might be an issue. TBH with the efficiency of the A/C & heat in the tractor cab I'm not even sure you need a heated seat.
Confirmed today that air suspension seating is what's going to be installed in both tractors. No heat in the seat however both machines are full cab tractors so a heated seat isn't really needed. Looking forward to the air suspension....big plus from the original equipment seat we have been using for the last 12 years or so...
Almost 2 weeks and no update.... don't keep us in suspense .......
I'm sorry Nige but I have nothing much to report on. I have not heard from anyone nor have I bothered to check in on progress. I will be down at the shop where the work is being performed the Friday after next and will have a full report at that time..
Pictures , lots of pictures.
Well I just bought a 2015 D6K2 LT w/cab. I am trading my JD750C II.It has been a great machine with no problems.I got the Cat w/only 250 hrs on it.I did purchase the extended power train warranty.Looking here for guys that have run one and see how they like it. This is not my first Cat dozer.
Any updates yet pafarmer??? Just curious how things are coming along.
Will had my D6K-2 for a wile now.In 50 hrs it has run very good.While my 750 was a great machine this one is 12 years newer and of course a big improvement.The seat no doubt is tons better.The total machine in the cab is very quiet but does let you here the hydro over the engine.Observing the blade is a little better .The 6 way as well as the speed control is a step up. The radio is great when it gets the station.Not sure if they sent a needed antenna as the still need to send operators manual. No problem with teir 4 yet.This is my second teir-4 engine and have not had any problems. Thanks
I've put several hundred hours on D6K's, the both had system one tracks. The first one was on 30" pads, the second on 20" pads. The wide pads took the bushes out in under 1000 hrs, and had actually popped them out of the chains, while the rollers and sprockets had hardly worn. The second machine has completely taken out the rollers while the idler, sprocket and rails are barely worn. On the newer machine, the rollers are much smaller diameter and shimmed 1/2" down from the frame to make it up. Also the roller material seems much softer on the smaller rollers. From what I've seen on several machines, I'd never match S1 with wide pads, the bushes can't stand being twisted.
Any updates yet? Don't leave us all hanging hear PAfarmer. This thread has the potential to include a lot of great invaluable information that this forum is known for. Just my $.02
I ended up trading in both machines on Two brand new D6 tractors.....I can tell you the rebuild process by CAT is nothing short of amazing in both time and quality....anyone considering this route should not hesitate....
So you rebuilt them then traded them in? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I thought the whole idea was to stay away from the tier 4 final crap?
So.......why did you trade them in again???
They were sold during the rebuild process. It's just that a guy wanted them and was willing to pay what I wanted..,very simply...I had one New snd really liked it allot and really couldn't see going backwards with such a good offer. These units hold their value quite well in my area and are a very popular size tractor.....and not everyone is willing to lay out NEW level cash ....
Nice! Can't argue with the right price that's for sure! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well that must be a thrill to have 2 new dozers! How about a photo or 2 when you have time?
or 6 or 8 or 10. :witpic
You have the moldboards polished on these 6s yet? I'd love a nice older 6T more preferable a 65EX-16.