Hi got a strange issue; My New holland 170 starts fine as normal but as soon as I let the key go from the start position to run the engine quits and the starter continues to run. If I hold the key in the start position the engine will stay running but so does the starter. This happens every time without fail. When I put on the seat belt the light does go out but the pedals are still locked out, even if i keep it running by holding it on the start position. I am sure before this problem arose i could start the engine and move it directionaly but the pedals are locked out until the seat belt is on, now the engine will not turn over until my seat belt is on. Any ideas? I have tired replacing the ingnition switch and the same problem is still ongoing, looked under the seat at the connections everything is intact. Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.
If the engine will start without seat belt the service run switch is in service position. When that switch is in service position hydraulics will be locked. If the switch is not in service position and allowing it to start without seat belt it could have an issue or the interlock could have an issue. Bad EIC is always a possibility as a last resort after checking wiring harness as well. Have you checked every fuse in the cab and engine compartment. There is a 5 amp fuse in the engine compartment that will cause symptoms like yours although usually the starter doesn't stay engaged so you may have some further issues. Start with all of the fuses and verifying the service/run switch position and if the machine will start with it in run or not. Is the starter freewheeling when it's still running or is it actually turning the engine? The engine is dying because power is being pulled from the fuel shutoff. With service switch in run position the EIC takes over sending power to solenoid after cranking so if it's not happy for some reason it will not send power. With the switch in service position power is sent to shutoff without the EIC getting in the way.
Thanks for replying. The starter is freewheeling I think. When the engine is running it's at full idle. The engine will stay running in service mode, but the pedals are still locked out. As soon as I switch it to run mode it quits. I pulled, cleaned and tested every fuse in the cab and engine bay along with a handful of resistors all working. I only have a circuit tester so next I will pick up a multimeter start looking at seatbelt and seat weight sensor wiring.....Maybe something to do with that? Or what about hydraulic sensor? Would this kill the engine?
What vintage 170 is this? The info/experience I have is with the LS models so it may vary some. Engine oil pressure and hydraulic charge pressure are the only two that will cause engine shutdown, however they will only do so 30 seconds after the machine has been started. They shouldn't prevent it from starting. The way I understand it, the engine will start and run with service switch in the service position but the starter freewheels when key is released to run? The engine will start and immediately die with service switch in the run position but the start will still free wheel. In either instance freewheeling stops with key off? Does the starter only engage when you turn the key to crank? It doesn't engage just by turning key to run? The pedals will always be locked out when the switch is in service mode, they can only be unlocked in run mode. That part is normal. If the starter is freewheeling in both service and run positions and it immediately stops freewheeling when the key is turned off, I would remove the white/purple wire from the starter interlock (engine fuse panel area) ad verify the starter still free wheels in service position. If not, then somehow the other circuit may be the cause regardless of the service run/position. Double check the wiring at the key switch and the key switches operation itself. If the switch is fine and the starter is not initially engaging simply by turning the key on, it would lead you to believe something along the way that is fed keyed power is sticking when the start signal is sent to it. I'll explain the circuit so you can troubleshoot more, but once you read through it you'll understand why. If the starter is freewheeling see if there is power being sent to the solenoid as its freewheeling (the single small wire, probably white). If there's no power, there's an issue with the starter, if there is power, something is sending power down that wire for some reason and you will have to find where/why. You may need a friend, or a decent meter that you can record with or position where you can see it while in the seat. If the freewheeling stops when the key is switched off, you most likely will have power at the wire that is keeping the solenoid engaged. If it were the starter that was bad, turning the key off would not stop it. Working backwards from the starter, the wire runs to the start relay. The red wires on it should have battery power at all times, the black wires are part of the ground circuit, there will be two more posts on the relay as well. The white with red tracer one just below the hot wires should be the single wire running to the starter solenoid, if you have power at the solenoid you most likely have it there also (if you don't, somewhere between the two you you have some wires rubbing). There will be two white wires with blue tracers on the stud next to the ground wires. If there is power there also, the start relay is fine, if there is not power there (other than when cranking) the relay is sticking. If the relay was sticking though, the starter would not stop freewheeling the instant the key is shut off, the relay sends battery voltage to the starter so if it sticks, the only way to stop it is by tapping on it or removing a battery cable. From that point you can start working from the other end. I would actually suggest starting at this end first and testing the stuff in the previous paragraph only if you don't find your answer. Start at the keyswitch. There should be battery power coming into one terminal (which is obviously working), that wire should be red possibly with a tracer. There should be a post for ACC which has one or two light green wires (one for EIC, one for accessory relay if equipped) and an orange with light blue tracer for the four way flashers if you have them. This recieves power in ACC or run position. There should also be the run post that only recieves power in the run position, it will have an orange wire that sends power to a 5amp fuse (labeled "electronics") in the cab panel. The last post should have the white wires on it for starting and should only have power when in crank. One wire sends power to service/run switch, the other to the EIC. Remove those wires from the start post and verify the switch is only sending power out when in crank. If its good, hook the wires back up, crank engine and release key to run, test for power on the white wires. There may be power there but not necessarily from the key switch which is why you want to remove them to test the switch at first. If the switch is good, move to the next spot the power travels, the service/run switch. There's a lot of wires on it but only two you are really concerned about. Flip the switch to service position, crank engine and while starter is freewheeling remove the white/dark blue wire from service run switch. If freewheeling stops, it would appear the service run switch may be bad and somehow feeding power to the starter, but I would think that would be unlikely. If the freewheeling did stop With the wire off, test for power where that wire connected with key in crank and verify it goes away or stays when key is released. The fact it does this in both service and run positions means the start interlock is probably not the cause. If you cannot crank the engine with the service/run in run unless the seatbelt is buckled, the interlock is probably working properly. When you turn the key to crank (when in run not service), you energize the coil in the relay which simultaneously switches power to the fuel shutoff solenoid from the 5amp electronics fuse, and power from the seat/seatbelt circuit to the start relay along the white/purple wire you may have removed earlier (both of these are independent circuits within the relay). As far as your cranking issue goes, providing you have an older machine or the newer L170s were similar (which a lot of it was), you should find your issue somewhere along the lines of what I described. If it's still acting up and every component tests good, start following the wires. The EIC causes a lot of problems but shouldn't be causing the freewheeling, it does recieve cranking power but does not control the cranking circuit in any way. You can remove the wire from the crank terminal that feeds it if you want to make sure the EIC is not sending power back through the cranking circuit for some reason. They have been known to do some odd things. You can even unplug the thing completely and the engine should still crank and run in service position. You may get to the point of simply following the wires. If thats the case, lock the boom in the air (you probably already did to make life easier in engine area). Then you can start removing the fenders, seat, and other panels needed to get access to the harness. The engine is dying because the EIC is not sending power to the fuel solenoid for whatever reason (theres a lot). The reason it runs in service mode is due to the switch simply sending keyed power straight to the solenoid anytime the key is on. With the switch in Run mode it sends power to the solenoid only when cranking. The fact it cranks and starts in run mode tells you that your seat/seatbelt switches are good and the circuit leading up to them and from them to the interlock is good. The seat belt light functioning properly on the EIC also tells you that portion of the circuit is probably good. I kind of danced around a lot in that post and got a bit winded. Hopefully you can follow it. Could've kept it shorter and easier with just a couple questions but figured I'd lay out the whole thing just in case so you dont have to wait going back and forth with answers/questions. Once you find the cause of the starter freewheeling, your other issues may go away. If not, let me know and you can work on those next.
Hi Durallymax thanks for all the detail and effort. My skid steer is a 2007 LS 170. I think I mispoke when i said the starter free wheels (Would I hear it while the engine is running?). The engine does stay running in service mode and it sounds like the starter has fully dis-engaged, the engine idle sounds normal. When I switch it to run mode while it is running in service mode the engine quits immediately. When i start it in run mode the engine starts and stays running as long as I hold the key in the start position. When I let the key go back to run the engine quits and the starter does keep cranking sometimes for several seconds and sometimes it quits after a second or so. Jiggling the key seems to make the starter quit, but I am not sure as it is somewhat inconsistent. The starter only engages when I turn it to crank, not in acc, off or run (except after I start it in run position as described above). I did replace the key switch so if it is a problem described in your key switch paragrapgh it is most likely the wiring, i can now trouble shoot that as soon as I get a chance, thanks for all the detail on the power delivery of all the wires. How do I lock the boom in the air with no working hydraulics? Boom is currently resting on the ground. Would really like to get it up and out of the way. I am a little busy at the moment but hope to get started on the trouble shooting soon, I will post my progress. Thanks again.
If the starter sticking is a bit random it could be the starter itself or relay. The starter may stick when engine is running too but you likely won't hear it, you can watch the power being sent to the starter motor from the solenoid though to see if it's still running. When the switch is in run mode and you turn the key to crank, power is sent to fuel solenoid as long as you are cranking, once you release the key the EIC is what supplies power to the solenoid. I'm not by my book now but can get the pin and wire color that comes out of EIC to send power to it so you can test that. You can get remove the floor pan on the machine and run jumper wires to the spool valve locks, then start the machine in service mode and you will be able to raise the boom. An 07 LS170 is slightly different but not by much.
anybody find solution to this I have the same issue-did we solve this? Found a mouse nest back there and pee on the EIC. Do we know which wire goes to the fuel solenoid?