hello everyone I'm a journeyman shovel operator. the last few months have been puzzling to me, and I'm wondering if i could get clarification. there are apprentices and people with less senority working. not only that, but they're in dozers n such. I've been limited to a roller sometimes rock truck. this doesn't seem right. what can i do? I was grandfathered into the local due to my 10 yrs previous experience with a non Union company, so I'm unsure as to the legality of it all. thanks
Way to many vague questions to give you a solid answer. Have you contacted the person in your shop that is designated as a steward? If there is none, go up the ladder to your business agent/rep in your area.
ok. sound there be apprentices working while journeyman sit at home? should apprentices be operating Dozer while journeyman is on a roller. sorry for being vague. just keeping from peeping eyes.
I see it says you are up in Canada, I don't know how it works there. But I know around here there's no seniority(in outside construction anyway, maybe in a shop or plant?), so you can't make a contractor lay anyone off so you can take their job, even if you're more experienced. I second what Turbo says, it could not hurt to ask how things work.
It also depends on the contract. The people you are working for may have a contract that states they have X amount of apprentices working. You should have the contract you are working under, if you do not, get a copy from your rep. Everyone involved has signed the contract, and therefore they should live and die by that contract. Not saying you will stay on if you rock the boat too much, but stick up for that contract and hold them to it.
Im gonna sound mean here, but maybe the problem is you.....or the quality of your work. It wont hurt to ask if it is the case, and then work to improve things from there.
definitely not me. it's happening to a lot of journeyman there.cut hours, apprentices working before us. apprentices working in dozers while journeyman running rocktrucks and rollers, etc.
Yair . . . Could someone explain the terms "journeyman" and "apprentice" when it comes to heavy equipment please? Maybe some Aussie's could chime in and clarify our situation but, as far as I know, we have no such designations in the industry here . . . maybe in the mines? Anyone? Cheers.
Where we are, NZ we usually go by experience, apprentices (trainees) get seat time now and then to get more experience etc etc but yeah the more experience the more trusted you are.
Not to be an a-hole,just asking, are you currently working steady? Do you get paid the same whether you're in a hoe,dozer,truck,skid loader,etc.? If yes,I don't see what the problem is?
Grandfathered......ouch. If I were you, I'd keep that little bit of information to myself. Also, if your local has a training site, use it and take advantage of it. People respect an operator who earns his journeyman status. An operator who has earned his way ......often has little difficulty staying busy/working. Those grandfathered/brought in by daddy or an uncle.......thats a different story. fwiw, i'm not trying to **** on anyone's cheeroes, i'm just telling you the way it is.
Yair . . . RollOver Pete . . . or any one. Could you explain this quote . . . what does a hand have to to earn a "journeyman" status. I'm trying to get my head around these terms, they cut no weight with me. Cheers.
fwiw..... an apprentice is a learner,new to the job. usually the kid that gets the tools, shovels the dirt and cleans the mud off the machines and lowest paid .a journeyman is the next level,he can work all areas of the trade ,and travels or journeys from job to job and generally does the production work and gets paid a little bit better. a master is a journeyman who has proven to his brothers that he/she can do all the work and is proficient in all areas of the trade. this is most commonlly done by creating one piece of work in the most professional manner, known as a masterpiece and uses it to raise himself to the status of master When achieving master status , he is entitled to oversee journeymen and take on apprentices .A bit of history here. this is basis for our unions and comes from the old world of guilds where trade secrets where just that,trade secrets .no one knew things about blacksmiths except blacksmiths and they didn't know anything about masonry and they didn't know anything about cabinetry .
Yair . . . wannabe Gotcha there mate, I understand all that. The part I don't understand is it an "official" system in the US. Can a young bloke sign on as an "apprentice" operator with proper documentation and accreditation after a given time? Over here you can go to a training school and get a piece of paper that says you can legaly "drive" a given piece of equipment . . . whether you can "operate" it is a different thing entirely. Cheers.
Hello Scrub Puller :drinkup Before I go any farther, I will admit that my choice of words or the way I come off in here even leaves me with doubts. I have no problem when it comes to moving mountains or equipment but when it comes to choosing words... Lookout That said, If I have offended anyone in here, please accept my apologies. My babbling here comes from my personal feelings and experiences. Right or wrong, its where I've been. I've been in the Operators since 1986. Before being accepted into the apprenticeship, I had the opportunity to be brought in my 2 people who were high up with Massey Sand and Rock here in Indio, Ca. I almost took their offer as I had been trying to join Local 12 for about 3 years. It would have been an easy way in but I would always have this idea in the back of my head knowing that I owed somebody or that I got a free ride. We all know those operators on the job that make the big bucks because daddy got them into the Operators. Regardless of weather they can cut grade, read plans or only run a roller, they are where they are because..... membership has its privileges. I didn't want that kind of label stuck to my hard hat and I'm glad that I didn't go that route. When the apprenticeship opened up I went for it. Besides, I had no idea of how to check grade or read plans. Long story short, I went to work after only 1 day at the training site. I was tested on just about everything they had and after the instructors were satisfied, I was cleared out on a 637 pp. 6000 hrs later I was a journeyman. This only took just under 3 years but you know what? I had the training, experience and confidence to do any job that I was cleared out to do. Unlike the bosses kid who despite not being able to hit the ground with the blade, he would remain on the payroll long after I was gone. All because membership has its privileges. Free rides are something that will never sit well with me.
Pete, I don't think it's fair to categorize people as having gotten a "free ride" or being incompetent because they did not go through the formal training. (And I did go through the training program. And I had some laborer experience before, so I really learned both ways) It must be different on your side of the country. Around here, if a contractor wants you gone, you are gone from that job. Again, wow, things must be really different out there. Who goes around a job asking who learned where? .
thank you *rolloverPete * you just described how the system is supposed to work and how it does work . I have the upmost respect for people like you that take pride in their work and their profession.To answer *scrub puller's * question, I think every state has it's different requirements and standards plus a fair amount of politicians wanting to get their hands on fee, registration and permit money. When I first got my commercial drivers license (CDL ) I passed all the tests and demonstated to the examiner, that I could shift gears and knew traffic rules, then my experience in the real world began. Believe me ,there is more to it than that . when I received that piece of paper that said I was a truck driver, was the farthest thing from the truth . it wasn't until a lot of seat time and miles later, that I could say to myself that I was one .
The terms "apprentice", "journeyman" and "master" refer back as stated to a guild system of craftsmanship. The unions in the United States used those same terms when they were in the labor supplying business. The system used to work by the employer needing skilled labor and contracting with the union hall to supply that labor. The union did the training of that labor and put up lists of available craftsmen. Those lists were always supposed to be based on seniority, meaning the highest on the list was most senior and had first pick of the available jobs being offered by employers. If the job required a "journeyman", then the highest seniority journeyman got to pick. The "master" part of the designation went away a long time ago. I've been on jobs where there was a pusher who was supposed to be a master but they were generally there to make sure the union workers lived up to the work ethic of the union. What hasn't been stated yet is that there used to be provisions for an apprentice for every so many journeymen. The original thread was implying that there were more apprentices than should have been on that particular job site running machines that journeyman should have had preference on. Apprentices get paid a lot less than journeyman so the employer might be getting a labor cost advantage. One shop I worked at had a union contract that stated there had to be one apprentice for every four journeyman. Now days in the US, union labor is designated on government contracts and I've heard Canada is more so than here. The non union part of the industry is probably based more on merit than at any time in history. Many of us here feel that the idea that a person achieved journeyman status without fulfilling the training and work time requirements needs to keep his mouth shut, do the work assigned and feel lucky that he has a job at all.
Yair. . . Thanks fellers for the clarification. I have a bit of an idea how your system works . . . I sense this could be a fairly tender area so from my perspective anyway, I'll let it go at that. Thanks again and cheers.
Apprentices are cheap labor and if they can do your job as well as you can and do it for less, you can do the math on that one. As a journeyman, you should be able to out-produce the apprentices. If you can't, either they are way talented or you're not up to par. There is no seniority written into the contract here to my knowledge nor do I believe in giving someone a seat just because they've been around longer although most contractors give the senior guys a seat first anyhow. I busted my ass to earn my journeyman book and if an apprentice can kick my ass out of a seat, more power to him.
I've got a question that i'm sure ill get flamed for seeing how this seems to be a pretty strong union website. Whats the purpose of a union (never been in one, around one or had any desire to be in one)? Is it just there so a contractor doesn't have to deal with having employees, he can just call the union and use it like a labor source (i know not the right term). To me it seems like a gamble for the contractor, he gets whoever shows up, no clue what their background operating experience is and someone who has no stake in the company. And the way i understand this thread, the guy who's been there the longest, not has the best skills or is the most competent gets the pick of the job he's doing?
I have worked all over the country and a good part of the world there oregon96pd. I was a supd't all the time I traveled. In our experience in lots of places to get a good crew when out of town we had to get close to the business agents of the various trades if you get my drift. You can't treat the union as a labor pool, once they come out from the hall and wind up on the payroll they become an employee, pure plain and simple. When I traveled we got some damn good operators and also those that couldn't find the seat on the machine with their ass unless someone showed them where it was. We got iron workers, pipe fitters, laborers, and millwrights the same way. It seems that all of them were either damn good and could do anything or no damn good and couldn't do anything. We also fought the work rules of the various locals. Like if you had more then four (4) gasoline or diesel powered welders on a job an operator was required to start them up in the morning and shut them down at day's end. Oh ya, and an oiler to check the oil and radiator in the morning too. Rest of the day they sat on their you know what. Yes, there are a lot of guys in the unions that got there because daddy, or an uncle got them in. Some are damn good operators and tradesmen, some arent worth a you know what. Just because somebody had someone get them into the "family business" does not make them either good or bad at what they do. It has a lot to do with how good they want to do and their work ethnic. I have also seen dad dress down his son severely for screwing up on a job because he didn't want junior's screw up to be a reflection on him. The "family business" way in is prevelent in a lot of things. Just take a look at all of the major city police and fire departments in this country. Many of them are generations deep in family.
Wow...sounds a lot like the government. I've actually heard stuff like that before, like a mechanic cant put oil in a machine after working on it or an operator cant hook up a load to lift it. What a joke.
Who tells you this stuff? Some drunk guy in a bar? Do you really believe a mechanic can't put oil in a machine? It does not work like that.
so is this not true? And no it wasn't some drunk guy in a bar, it was actually someone who worked in a union. Said it was something about not being able to do someone else's job and stealing work from them? I still don't get the idea behind them, from what i understand they were made to represent workers rights back in the industrial revolution, but now a day's I don't see the point. Are they just a tradition that has stuck around, what purpose do they serve?
I wouldn't know about the welding machines anyway never had that sort of job and don't want to. Must be about the same as watching paint dry. That's not the one I was referring to anyway. I was referring to your story about the mechanic. Mechanic, operator, whoever, they can put oil in a machine.
First off, you don't work for a union. You work for an employer who has decided to be signatory to that local, the union represents us for wages/benefits and working conditions. What purpose do unions serve? To keep the employer from ramrodding all sorts of BS down a guy's throat. Every union contractor I've ever worked for has tried one way or another to fudge the contract that they have decided to abide by. I suppose if they didn't try to screw you out of your lunches, not pay overtime, or ask you to do something unsafe there would be no need for someone to stand behind you when you tell them to get ****@d. If every contractor treated their employees with respect, there wouldn't be a need for unions. Working for the big outfits means you're just a number to them; they don't give two sh!ts about who you are or your agenda on this planet. If you let them, they will trample you, simple as that. If you worked for a smaller outfit you may not ever need representation. The advantage to a union contractor is the ability to make a phone call and get well qualified hands out to the site the very next day. Typically more advantageous for the outfits that come into town, do a big job, then take off. They have a few guys who follow them around, but for the most part, they can round up a good crew once they get into town. Secondly, if it weren't for union hands pushing for better wages/benefits, we would all be non-union working for $10/hr. Fact of the matter is that we are a bargaining chip for the non-union guys out there when they go to ask for a raise, something to compare themselves against. Reality is that prevailing wage, which is more or less what our wages are based off of, are determined by L&I. On state or federally funded projects, the non-union guys make what we make, which is prevailing wage. And, our local actually has a scale for privately funded jobs which is 85% of full scale. On top of all that, we train the best hands on the ground, bar none. There is no better training than the apprenticeship programs across the country and even internationally. As a graduated apprentice with a very diverse skillset that was made possible by quality training, I can tell you nobody prepares the next generation better than apprenticeship programs sponsored through individual locals.
Thats just about the funniest thing I've read all year.
Glad you think so. If you think the operating schools do a better job of training, I'd love to hear that argument.