Here's the scenario: I'm a sub contract hauler for another sub to the prime contractor in most cases ( one I'm one more sub down ). I have 4 that aren't paying and nearing my window to file for a lien ( 90 days from end of month of completed work ). I've contacted a lawyer I know and he's going to look into this for me and help out. He'll send out the letters for the postage costs if his firm doesn't represent any of the out standing debt. This isn't his field of work and if he's gonna work with me I figure I should do some of the leg work too. What my plans are at present are to have the lawyer send out a letter to my contractor, the prime contractor, and site owner. Then If I've researched it correctly then send out certified return reciept notice of non payment. At which point I believe they have 10 days to reply, then I file for the lien. In defence of the prime and site owners I belive most of them have payed. That said I think my only actions allowed are to notify the prime and owner along with the fella acually not paying me. I don't want to have to do this, but it's the only way i see of getting any return on what it cost me to do the work. The largest outstanding balance is almost 50% fuel usage which came out of my pocket and has eaten deaply into my reserves to get threw the slow times. Not to mention just normal running expenses ( tires and maintance ), insurance, tags, and such. What I'm wondering is of you experianced fellas out there am I going about this in the proper order and not missing anything? Does any one have a copy on hand of forms used for such I could look over? I know each states laws are going to differ, but a guide to go by would be very helpful. I'll post up what I come up with as I find things out along the way.
Update: the larger out standing balance was recieved today and deposited. Supose to hear something on the next largest and longest out standing tomorrow. Still waiting to hear From the lawyer on the paper work and steps. Found some info poking around the web and came across this info. http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=tools-contents.htm&cp=tncode/27895/27c00/27c03&2.0 Near the bottom "66-11-145. Notice of nonpayment — Form of notice. — " this page has a link to a pdf form of the notice of non payment. The rest is info on the steps and legal jargen to go with it for TN. Maybe I won't have to go this route but with times as they are I have a feeling things are only going to get worse on the people not paying. I don't won't to have the reputation of doing this, but the fuel and truck costs are to much to absorb right now. I could eat the labor costs ( my pay if I had too ). Is anyone enterested in the info or should I just keep searching about on my own? Alot of the guys I know in this area know about the lien law, but none know how to use it yet. Most have always just eaten the cost and moved on when times were good.
I wouldn't worry about your reputation for trying to get your money, I would spread the word about the lowlifes that won't pay you what you agreed to and deserve. I have never been in your situation yet, but I think by sending a registered letter stating failure to pay could entice you to file a lien may do the trick, without the lawyers help. You could do what I did to the landscaper that I hauled mulch for, I was worried the first day about getting stuck with a bounced check, he wrote it and I looked around at his equipment, he asked if I minded him writing a check, I said no, there was enough good equipment to cover it if it bounced. After that day he paid me cash everytime, even though that first check cleared. We have used that half-joking/half-serious threat with other people and have not gotten stuck yet. But I know my day is coming. I know with the contractors you are dealing with, you probably can't use this trick and the legal definition of conspiracy does not allow me to offer other advice
:beatsme LOL, tha's a good hint up front if avalible. The big one that was out I wouldn't trade my check for his scrap metal. He had his trucks on the short honey hole jobs that didn't eat all the fuel as his could barly stay running on it. 3 mile hop. Would prolly spend more in wrecker fees to get his to the scrap yard. However I did make it a point to go buy his house the first week I worked for him. Ya kow, incase I ever needed to drop op last minute invoices or anything :beatsme. I'm down to 3 invoices out now I'm curious of. 1st one is for a decent amount and will prolly have to go this route on it. 2nd one is a little one and may just write it off or negotiate Fuel wasn't bad on it and I just be lossin my time. 3rd one is for the same prime as second but threw a diferant source that said he'd back it up. Told him if I get stiffed this time I'm gonna consider going at the job as the prime. Talked to one of the loader guys last week and the job came up in discussion and he mentioned insurance was an issue with it. I have the insurance they'd require already from a previous job. I think it's a bad practice to compete with your contractor on work he has given you, but if he's not gonna pay me for mine I see it as all bets are off. Missed a haul out of what I felt woulda been a conflict of enterest. The last haul I did for ( the large one that finally payed ) was in Spring Hill and the following week a buddy of mine called wantin me to go down on the same job for the same prime and do some hauling and I turned him down and lost a week of work on a decent haul. Tryin to get me a little slot in somewhere with the guys that payed me to fast, but not sure if I'm gonna find one. Considering just goin to work for them on a job coming up as an operator for the next year and hope the economy picks back up after the jobs over. :Banghead We'll see in the next few weeks what progresses.
Don't back down, try to not become consumed by it, but don't back down, it goes back to a matter of principle, not dollar amount.
Sorry been busy and aven't stopped in for a bit. Update: All payed but the smallest now and may let him slide on one of the two invoices if he'll cover my out of pocket costs for fuel. It's a long story of to many hands in the mix on the first one. Should know some thing on it this week. With the big two payed up I haven't ounded the lawyer any more yet. I'm still gonna get the info together incase I ever need to use it and will post up what I find out from him.
If you let him slide now, you can always throw that up as a bargaining chip in the future if you still do business with him. And don't let him forget.
When people really string you out and hurt you don't be afraid of losing them as a customer. After starting in 1975 and doing 4+ million in masonry in 1987 probably my high I have been beat out of about 7-10,000. Now I have to sue my friend I partnered and raced boats with for 20 years. I lent him 30 grand in 85 to help him start his business. I am godfather to his son and his best man. Now I am suing him for 50 grand so you never know who will stick you. He has changed over the years and his no friends anymore.
Don't you guys use contracts?? I do now after a very valuable education, remember the last person you'd expect to beat you will take you for the most, someone mentioned a friend??? I got took after 10 years in business and since I paid for the education of being screwed I might just as well put it to use for me next time. We now document everything, pictures before during after, signed work orders the works, no signature no work, end of discussion. If they owe you money go after it, don't worry about what people will think, most feel if you don't get it out of him you'll charge me more to cover it and won't hold it against you. Remember you've never gone to collect money from someone that didn't owe you any?? Another tip, crooks think different than you and I they play you from the time they think about contacting you until they have the job done, they study chats like these trying to figure out how to beat someone, not to learn how not to get beat. the old saying is still correct" it takes a crook to catch a crook" I agree with speedpup don't be afraid of losing them as a customer, do you want to work for someone thats screwing you out of your money, thats like paying them for the privilage of working for them????
Randy has so real good advise. Remember a lien need a judgement, before you can enforse it. And by the time that happens they might file bankrupt. And as soon as they don't return a call that's it go for it. You can do most of the collecting without lawyer and save the money. Just make sure you do all your fileing on time and certified return reciept for proof. We have a pre-lein law here works good some times, you notify the owner, lender, and general contractor, then if you don't get paid you send a stop notice, that's like throughing gas on them but the clock is ticking and if they go bankrupt it may be impossible to collect. You can also make it hot for them if you can find out what job they bid on and contact them and tell them they don't pay. I had a co. that owed me 50 k I found out each time they were bidding I contacted the owners and told them what they were like after 10 months I got paid. 1 month latter they were bankrupt it was a PONZI scheem. Also see if there is a payment bond that is another way to get paid but there is a time limit on that after the job is completed. Good luck.
the bigger the companys are the worse they try and screw you here in wales i do a lot of subcontracting work and 1 of the largest firms in the world owed me over 30k. We had to pull photos of the jobs we were doing and time sheets and a supervisor signing sheets for like it was no tommorow cos of the jobs we were doing all cable faults (digging holes for cable repairs) 24hrs a day. The problems i had and the exuses were unreal they lost the paperwork, supervisor not signing, wrong job number. All the tricks in the book. So i had the lawyer sort it out for me i couldnt do anything stupid like smash the offices in thats when they got you back but was tempted. Later they paid sum of the money then trying to withhold the rest and bill me for clearing their own muck away and hire of a jcb which i dindnt want. Before i even had a chance to finish clearing muck away for them they said they had no more work for the subcontractors. On top i had a man who wanted a pond done I gave a price at first he agreed then when the machine arrived he tried to haggle the price then had the cheek to say just do the pond for me as a mate and the diesel. I told him he wasnt my mate and f~@;. off i put the machine back on the trailer he owed me money for previous work he was then refusing to pay he had nice fancy stone walls i asked for the money a number of times. While he was dining in a fancy restaurant i was having a few pints in my local i told him pay up its not fair. ID had enough as i was passing his fancy house and nice stone walls i pulled them all down with my backhoe loaded it all on the truck and sold the stone as result of pay he phoned the police as he was threatening to kill me the police said to me what are you doing i replied taking my stone from here the cop said is this the case i showed him the bills and he then said ok i cant do anything jumped in his car and drove off. People do try and take the pee out of us contractors well its not happening. I thought people would go against me for what i did and my reputation would be damaged but no evrybody could see where i was coming from. U no it hasnt even damaged me by a fraction i even asked him if he would come and work for me for nothing to repay his debt and his answer was i aint working for nothing for nobody well either am i. :Banghead :bash i do respect other contractors who are owed money and got things to pay it is a hard life.
liens I hope everyone has paid you by now. I got a great job about 3 years ago (clearing, hauling, site prep, 3 mayor septic systems) and would have made some good money and 6 months work. The agreement was, when I finished the first third, of the work I got paid for that and so forth. Well I finished 1/3 and notified the owner (I was working directly for the owner) He gave me a story, about having to go out of state on and emergency and he would be back in two weeks. I asked him to mail the check and he said he didnt bring his check book with him HUMMM. I bought the story, what else could I do. I kept working, in two weeks I finally tracked him down (he had quit answering his cell phone) I confronted him about the bill and he said I charged him too much, he took the bill (which we agreed on in advance) and said he would let me know how much he would pay. I have over 2 months work invested now. I told him if I didnt have the money by the end of the week, I was going to put a lien on the properties. He showed up that Friday, with all but $10,000, he said I over charged him, for the total amount. The same amount we agreed on, in advance and a written agreement. Well it was Friday, so Monday I sent the guys to the job and I went to talk to a lawyer, what a racket, I dont know who is the worst the owner or the lawyer. Lawyer, says I will take your case, but I need to file a lien today and I need $900 (3 liens) Lawyer sent owner a letter about the remaining balance, owner kicked me off the job for going to a lawyer. He hired another contractor (just happened to be a friend of mine) and he paid him more to finish the job, than I charged him. Well owner still owes him $15,000, now my friend has sued him. I'm almost finished, I still havent got the money and my friend hasnt gotten his money, the property the owner, developed didnt sell and the bank repoed it, so Im out of 10 grand and lawyer says, its nothing he can do. The is a long way to say, a lien in NC really doesnt mean much, the lawyers has ways around it. Sorry for the long reply, I got carried away
i think we all get carried away when there are crooks trying to rob us they need sorting at times.
We would expect payment at the latest 60 day on a new customer that had a good record. I would have done a pre-lien within 20 days of starting the work, then on 60 days file a lien, stop notice to owner lender and contractor, then after time to answer fore close on the lien. This is one of the few thing that works here in California. The other concern is getting a judgment that you can't collect on, so don't wait after 30 days unless you know you are going to get paid it is a wise thing to file the paper work which can save you a lot of time down the road. Do as much as you can without a lawyer to save $.
A few questions here; Did you use a lawyer from a different town than where the bank was located, second if you put on a lien you should get your money before the property can get sold with a clear title or at least thats the way its done around my state. The reason for asking about the lawyer from a different town was they sometimes have a tendency to do work for a bank and since the banks is a larger customer they might work for them so to speak and tell you your out of luck, I've seen it happen before. The guy that owed me money I put a lien on and took him to court and only got some of my money, but what most people don't know is that the court case appears on thier permanent record and kills their credit rating, big time, and will do so for years to come. He isn't laughing anymore or bragging how he beat me I'm sure someones told him what its done to his credit rating and how it'll affect him and his business in the future. Sometimes its not an immediate payment in money but its a greater satisfaction knowing anybody can check on these deadbeats credit history and seeing them labeled a dead beat by lenders and creditors everywhere. I've always said if you want to screw me thats fine but beware I do bite back sometimes a whole lot worse and in more ways than they'd ever dreamed and its legal and documented for the world to see. I'd get a second opinion from a different attorney and learn from the education and make sure you don't repeat the same mistake again, it'll help prepare you for the next crook you have to deal with. I've handled several crooks and every time you learn more and figure out how not to be a victim in the future,the only way I could take getting beat was knowing , it could have been a whole lot more and to make sure it didn't happen again, its a hard lesson to learn but it did make me feel better, 10-15 grand is bad but its better than 50plus grand, sad to look at it like that but thats the only way I could stomach it.
The same problem all over the world!
9 more days and and the last one out standing will be a year old. It's supose to have gone to court or some sort of arbitration last week. I have incentive for the contactor i worked for to see to it I get my money now. I found a work around of sorts I hired him to work for me on a job and owe him more than he owes me. which goes to show it's best to try to be as good as ya can to your subs. In this market the more people you know and have been good to the better off you are. He wasn't the prime contractor so haven't helt his money yet, but keeping the option open along with just writing it off. I did work on the job again for the same sub I was working for and got payed in a reasonable amount of time each time so I've done the same with hime. As my prodject nears an end I'm concidering asking if he'll trade the work out. I lucked into a job with large contractor for the past few months and has worked out very well. They are very good about paying timely. Even called me last week when they were doing checks and informed me one of my tickets had went awol and requested a copy so they could send me my check. Unlike the normal practice of not sending the check and waiting for me to call and ask why. I wasn't busy whe I got the call managed to get a copy sent with in a couple of hours, followed up to see if it had be recieved and was readable. My check even came a day earlier than normal. The moral here never count out the little guy. I'm much smaller than his business, but we all have contacts and the more of those you have the more apt you are to make it. My main source of work has only provided about 1% or less of my work in the past 12 months so I had to fall back on other options. His work is picking back up and I've tookin care of him even though I've been on another job I sent others I think can handle it to keep him happy. Which has worked great so far for everyone. I still have a good reputation with both of my contractors for getting them taken care of in a timely manner.
Gettin Payed I my self have experienced difficulties this year getting payed on time. One for example is a modular/mobile home sales company I have worked for the past 2 years. They have always been slow getting money to me and it always seemed to be a job collecting it. I always Had a proposal faxed to them before the start of the job and it always stated payment scheds. and deposit before the start of the job. Well the the job before last came and went and they still owed me money for that .The phone calls to them weren't answered or returned for weeks and I had to resort to the home owner to tell them I hadn't been payed. I had done this in the past to light a fire sort of speak so that they would get on the company's but to pay me. After all it is under the home owners best interest to know there is still a lien on there home. Well I got a call finally from the company, " _ _ _ Homes " and they had another job for me to do. Ok I will start as soon as I am payed for the last one. " The Check is in the Mail " Things being slow as they where I believed them and started the job of course no deposit up front ointhead. I got half way into the job and stopped and said *** am I doing. I sent the company an invoice asking for a draw before work continues. I also told the homeowner, who I had been working alongside all the while, what I was doing. Well the service manager called and said to finish the job and we will no longer need your services. :beatsme I said fine I need to get paid. The next call was to fire me form the job and they where going to hire some one else to finish. Also accused me for breach of contract for stopping the job. I ended up finishing the job for the home owner which pissed the manager right off. Well its been 60 days since the original invoice for about $ 12000.00 and I sent them a past due invoice and threatened legal action.
You guys ever heard of a payment scheme before, this is a new one for me and I'll try to explain how it works and how they get by with it, I ran into it a few years ago and was almost took but lucked out and foregot to cash the first check. Heres how it works and how they pull it off. When you pull into the job the owner comes out and almost kisses your ass from being so nice and gives you a check for a portion of the uncompleted work say 500 bucks on a 10000 dollar job and you cash it because its money and its dated today and the work starts and you get done and send a bill and credit the 500 off and then wait. They then start sending you two checks one for 500 dated in a month and the other for 50 or so dated that day and in three weeks they send another two checks and a letter saying to tear up the one for 500 its been voided and to keep this one for 500 dated in a month from then and another for 50 bucks, by now your pissed and go to an attorney and find out you have accepted their payment terms and theres nothing you can do including small claims court or a lien because they are attempting payment and by the way they never agreeded to interest and you can't charge them any. To make a long story short they can legally draw this out 50 bucks a month until the 10 grands paid without paying interest or suffering any legal action. Somebody tried this one on me but the kicker was I foregot about cashing the first check because I was busy and didn't have time to drop it off at the bank. After a confrontation with the owners about the bill and getting paid and they explained that I had accepted their payment terms and had planned on making a 50 buck a month payment until the $10000 bill was paid did I realize what was going on and went to an attorney and he asked if I had cashed the first check and I told him I had foregot to and still had it. Needless to say I threatened a mechanics lean and going to court and tore up the original check and before my 90 days were up I had been paid in full before any legal action could take place. You have never had anyone as mad at you as they were at me over the fact I never cashed their first check and didn't realize I hadn't until after they had explained how they were planning on paying me 50 bucks a month unitl it was paid. My attorney told me to never accept checks less than the billed amount and never cash any check where the note on the bottom of the check said paid in full unless it was for the full amount and I was paid in full. Don't accept amounts other than those billed and to pay attention to the dates on the checks and to be sure they are not dated before the work had started or been billed out uless theres a contract stating payment or money up front that they signed. To foreget about anything verball and if its not in writing it didn't happen or was never said. Also have you guys been asking for partial payments in advance along with a signed work order??? That will eliminate all these guys schemes from the start becasue they know they won't get by with it. If anyone has any other scams they have ran into let me know I'm sure there are a lot out there and it would be nice to know what to look for and how they do it legally and get away with it.
Good Story....
Randy88 That was educational. I had a new experience this past year. Found out that here in CA if the bank forecloses on a property from the owner, and you had a valid mechanics lien against the property for work hired by the owner, that the lien gets wiped out when the bank forecloses. Fortunately I only got stuck once, but it was for 17K. I would be concerned if I did a lot of work for private owners in these times. As many foreclosures as there are, I bet a lot of small contractors are getting hurt. It just doesn't seem right that the bank takes the property you improved, and now they have no obligation to pay for the work???
Is that a federal law or just a state law about foreclosures? I thought a lien came before a bank and was there until it was paid off?? Stupid question but did you get any signatures on any paperwork from the owner that hired you, do they own any other property and can you go after that for collection or put a judgement against them personally and get a court ordered monthly payment??? Isn't the system great, my grandpa always said its " laws made by lawylers for lawylers. "
Been reading this interesting article so a few thoughts or maybe options. A guy I know that pours concrete didn't get paid for a garage pad. After a long time of asking to get things squared away he showed up with his skidsteer and truck and hauled it away. I would be worried about getting my pants sued off. I think he could get away with it tho. He's a friendly guy and even if you really ticked him off he would treat you like an old friend. That deal in CA about liens getting canned when someone goes bust is twisted. Out here I believe they will follow you and everyone else to their graves and beyond. My Dad is in the heavy equipment repair business and I don't know of any business that is looked after lien-wise as well as mechanics. If he repairs someone's crawler and they show up and haul it off without payment or making arrangements it's theft, plain and simple. Even if a bank wants to repo a piece of equipment and it's on the mechanic's yard with an outstanding bill they have to pay in full before picking it up. In some cases they say that owner signed work orders aren't a requirement to file a lien but it does make it much easier.
I'd never recommend this one but I heard it was done a lot of years back and you might get a kick out of it all the same, it gives new meaning to "pay the bill or else" This contractor put in a septic system for a private homeowner in the country and then tries to get paid and didn't get all the paperwork done on time and the owner and lender refuse to pay because his 90 days had run out to file a lien, he sues the guy and goes to court and loses, how I don't know maybe he had the same judge I had when I lost my collection case. Anyhow he's out the money and can't collect so he waits and several years later the owner fails to make payments to the bank and loses the property and the bank ends up with it. Now heres where it gets interesting, this contractor knows about the bank ending up with it and knows it takes several months before all the paperworks complete so the bank has titile to the property and in that transition period someone uses explosives and literally blows the septic system out of the ground, tank, lines, the whole deal and blows them all over the yard and I'm told the roof and side of the house as well. Now heres the kicker, law deems this mess had to be cleaned up pronto, its a public heath hazzard and since the bank didn't have all the paperwork in order they technically didn't own it and the owner had defaulted on the loan he didn't either so he wasn't responsible for cleanup and his insurance company wasn't either because he had let his insurance lapse. So since the bank didn't own it legally and that meant they had no insurance on it they had to dig into their own pockets and pay clean up and also by law the installation of the second septic system as well. Now I've never seen a septic imploded or exploded but after several years use I can't imagine the smell or sight it would make. I've heard after that ordeal if there was a septic system installed if the owner wouldln't pay the bank would even if the paperwork wasn't up to snuff. Thats been a lot of years ago by now but it still makes for a conversation piece. Oh yea I almost foregot, the guy that did't pay and lost his property, he gets remarried after his divorce and the second time around his new wife has money and she decided to build a new house, you'd never guess it but she has to pay up front all installation costs of the septic even though it wasn't the same contractor word had got out that someone a long time ago didn't get paid, so in the end, what goes around does come around. The contractor that got beat he once told me that after that he charged everyone 10 percent more and that covered those that didn't pay him on any given year and for legal professionalls like lawyers and bankers they got charged 20-30 percent more and money up front, that way the legal system worked in his favor right from the get go. Just a story and advice that was given to me over the years and thought you might like to hear it.
Something doesn't smell right about that story:tong but I like it
Well met with an attorney today to see what my options are. He said if it goes to court it will cost me a third of what is owed me for him. He is sending them a letter first to see what happens. I hope it works. I wouldn't think the company wants a law suit so maybe they will pay.
I hope it all works out for yas BIGDAN. It's a shame things get this way, but some people don't care I recon. I may end up with egg in my face. I have worked with the fella I had troubles with again and right now not to far behind just tipped 30 days on the number 1 of about 6 invoices. For the record this was just busy working not relying on this income to survive.
Thanks, I have another app. with the lawyer tomorrow. He says they have a proposal and that's all I know... Will keep you posted
The other thing that makes leins fruitless is that the Prime, Sub, or the Owner can post a bond in the amount of the lein, (for a cost of 1%-3%) and the property is free again. I have had several poignant moments trying to figure out how to manipulate someone into paying me what Im owed, I have never been hurt by standing my ground. I have observed that pulling off of the job is a sure way NOT to get your money, but continuing to work isn't usually fruitful either. I try to stay on the job without really working, and work any leverage I can find against the debtor. I have learned in my short career though, that you CANNOT ever just let someone out of a bill.... it sets a very dangerous precedent. Also, a lein will never work go in front of a bank on a piece of property that has been financed. If you are concerned about your money going into the project, have a title company do a title search on the land. Thats what the bank does before they lend on it. If there is a deed of trust of a lein on the property for any reason, you will be in line behind it.
Update Well after about 5 months and a $ 600 bill from the lawyer I finally got a check. I setled for 2 grand less than what they owed me. I would of ended up with allot less if had gone to court with the atnys fees being 1 third of the collection. I don't have one good thing to say about this outfit and will spread the word around about them...:ban
Congradulations Dan. I'm glad you got it sorterd out and it didn't cost you a fortune. I've almost got mine settled up as well. Just one more payment out standing ( down side I went ahead and payed some subs I brought in out of my own pocket to protect my reputation and friendships with the subs ). Luckily it isn't a very large amount. Bet lawyers are loving these times as the are making fortunes. Recently hada friend go to court on a charge Lawyer told her she could help her out. $750 for first court apearance. Then told her she had to plead guilty or fork up 1500 more for representation and would likely get the same outcome of pleading guilty.
Anybody came across this scam yet, a couple own a piece of property for a lot of years and you've done work for the husband in the past many times for small jobs, lets say they own a house for simple example on an acreage, you've never had problems collecting in the past and this time seems no different, the wife is gone visiting family and is expected to be away for at least a month or so due to an illness in the family or some such tragic ordeal. Being the hero of a husband he is he's going to fix up the property a little to surprise her while she's away and wants to do some improvements to the house and some landscaping to cheer her up when she gets home. Lets say the house needs a new roof and a remodel to the kitchen and new siding and some landscaping and something to help the curb appeal as they say. To hurry this up he hires several different crews to get all the work done while she's away and they all show up at once to get it completed in say less than 30 days. Any money down is either paid with a personal check of his or by a credit card and he wants all bills submitted directly to him so she's not fully aware of the total costs and all agree to this arrangement, most even have him sign a work order and all the paperwork's in order. By the time she gets home all the works done and bills are submitted and it looks real impressive, now here comes the kicker, nobody can get paid the remaining amount and they go after the owner and even take him to court only to find out the property has been put in her name only and then she claims she had no knowledge of the work being done and since none of the billings were in her name she isn't responsible for any of them, any liens or suits are dropped and nobody gets a dime from her in any form and they can go after the husband but he has nothing in his name but credit cards or upside down vehicle loans which are worthless. The scam being pulled is simple, the couple are facing foreclosure on their house and due to lowering values they owe more than what its worth, now if they put in a lot of improvements that don't cost them anything it'll bring up their valuation to more than they owe making it a good loan and if they are forced to sell they come out ahead with some money to spare, the house is in her name and she signs nothing and agrees to nothing thus she won't have to pay for it and all the paperwork backs up her story in court and its all done against her consent or knowledge so she doesn't have to pay but gets the increase in value to her property just the same, now the husband is left owing but nobody will go after him he has nothing to his name and never will and since there are so many contractors involved no amount is that great to make it worth their time to try collecting and the scams complete. I didn't get hung this way but a friend of mine did this past year and was more than a little hot over the deal but his attorney advised it wasn't worth his time or money to spend more than what he was owed and to write it off to experience, now he does paperwork checks as to who's name the property's in and has all owners sign and has a larger portion of money down, if the property's changed hands recently he demands all money up front with signatures. Just thought you might like to know about how it works and why they do it.
Randy that's a dirty trick. I would think that would fall under conspiracy to commit fraud. The contractors may not get paid in this case, but I'm pretty sure that some people go to jail for fraud depending on what they did.
Its not considered fraud because according to the way it was explained to me the contractors can still go after the husband or whoever signed the work order but the problem is that party never has anything in his name as far as assets go so nobody bothers to even go after them, it'll cost more than what they'll ever get. The other problem with it is the contractor just assumed that the property was still owned jointly and never bothered to check so technically its his fault for not doing his homework and no fault of the wife or property owner whoever has the property in their name at the time. So legally you'd have to prove they intentionally scammed you out of your money and that's about impossible to do. I just wanted to pass it along because until my friend told me about it I had never heard of it or how it was done and he did get burned in court over the deal and was rightfully pissed about it. Remember desperate people will do desperate things to hang onto whatever they can in tough times and use whoever it takes to achieve it, or as an attorney told me " just do your homework and only work for those you trust and have ALL the paperwork signed by ALL the people involved". I can't say that I agree with him but I can't say he's wrong either or as he put it " its the rage of the age, cope with it the best you can and cover your ass".
It's good information and I'm glad you shared it. Sometimes people suck. I'd be tempted to go back and return the site to the previous condition.
Thats odd because here they tell me that if your married both are responsible for the payments.Like credit card and so forth.