I own only one diesel-- an ASV four cylinder track loader. When trying to start in only mildly cold weather(30°F) I had, what seems to me, significant problems. Problems were related more to keeping it going after start than starting. I expected problems and put in some diesel cold weather "911" treatment into diesel that WAS bought after the cold weather hit; so I expected it to be the low viscosity grade, late October, Minnesota. Here are the symptoms and background: -- pre-heated the engine with engine block heater 40 minutes. -- started and it was tough, lots of cranking then it coughed a bit, then coughed and finally started only after holding the key hard against the stop so it kept on coughing until it caught. -- once started it did not wanted to idle smoothly, up and down RPM's, unstable at best. -- Once I did this and it stalled and was not re-startable. Next time, it stayed running and took another 30 minutes + to idle smoothly. I hated doing this. Figuring it is wearing on the engine badly that whole time. -- Once it got going smoothly I figured all is fine. NO. VERY slow to respond. The hydraulic fluid must have been viscous as hell. Also, it would not rev up to full RPM as normal. I was pushing snow with my bucket at about 2 mph only. -- Then, all must have finally gotten to temp, hydraulics and fuel and it ran normally. Power was fine, good responses hydraulically. I do not want to have this same experience again because of #1 potential wear on engine and #2 it takes QUITE a while! Looking for suggestions from Diesel and Hydraulic pros for pre-heating. Is there such a thing as hydraulic tank heater? how about the fuel filter can it be heated? I figure if I had done a better job heating BOTH those fluids all would have been MUCH better.
First things first: This is copied and pasted straight from Power Service web page: "Diesel 911 is a winter emergency use product. This Winter Rescue Formula reliquefies gelled fuel and de-ices frozen fuel-filters to restore the flow of diesel fuel to an engine. Diesel 911 does not prevent fuel gelling – use Diesel Fuel Supplement +Cetane Boost (in the white bottle) as a preventive measure to keep fuel from gelling." Highlighting and underlining is mine! Next, are you sure the block heater is actually working? At 30ºF fuel should not gel even IF it was summer fuel, that said if there is water in it the water will freeze and give you problems! Not knowing what oil is recommended or what might be in there I can say much about that other than find out what should be in there and what IS in there. Also do you know what engine this machine has? That might help get better suggestions.
Did you turn the key to the left to engage the glow plugs and hold it until the glow plug light went out ? On my ASV's in cold weather this is a must.
The glow plugs are needed to start smooth if it has glow plugs. The block heater will make it start like it's 70 IF it's working, does the snow melt off the extension cord, at least the plug when it's plugged in? does it arc when you plug it in and unplug it in the dark? The fuel pump at the station you buy fuel should say what kind of fuel is being sold. Once started it should have run fine with summer fuel at 30, you have other problems than the cold. Water is one possibility, do you have a water separator? a drain on the tank? a drain on a sediment bowl? anywhere to drain water out of the system before it gets to the injection pump. The other possibility is a clogged fuel filter or screen somewhere that just got worse with colder thicker fuel. And/or an air leak somewhere in the suction side of the fuel system. You definitely have fuel problems, the hydraulic fluid has NOTHING to do with this. If you can start it after a night when it's gotten down to 34, and then again after it's gotten down to 20, you might find that 32 degrees is the magic number... if not a big difference then it's air or a blockage other than ice.
Block heaters on skid steers are quite low powered try a min of 4 hours or so reach in and make sure the engine feels warm If you havent changed fuel filter this winter do that right away
Just started my asv rc30, today... Hadda load something I sold... Here's what I do: temp was about 35ºF, went out early, slipped a coleman radiant tent heater, under the motor, and let it sit fer about 1/2 hr, to warm the motor compartment(no electric, where its parked). Then hit the key left, fer about 9 seconds. Starts right up, though cranking slow. The slow cranking is normal, for a machine that has been sitting fer about 3 weeks... About diesel 911, it works, but if you use too much, the motor will die, when you try to throttle up. Yours has the same symptoms as mine does, when there is a gelled fuel filter. also may need new fuel line, from tank to pump, the oem one I had only lasted about 6-7 years. I replaced it with same size fuel line, from import car parts store, told them it was a mercedes diesel, and they matched it right up... Here is what the tent heater looks like, lots of times you can pick them up at yard sales, or auctions for $10-15. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Coleman-Ca...285136?hash=item4d6df57710:g:umIAAOSw8A1ahwKz
The GOOD NEWS is, you got it started.. There are about 150 threads from this month to last month ALONE where folk CANT GET their machine to run.. Delmer had so very good suggestions.. 40 minutes on the block heater doesn't do squat.. they take hours & hours to function properly.. overnite.. in most cases.. Draining some fuel, changing the filters, cleaning out the h2o separator & checking the condition of the glow plugs, will get you miles ahead..
answers: Machine is an ASV track loader, SR80, 4 cylinder Perkins diesel engine -- I have the correct diesel rated oil, it is an OEM engine heater, YES, it was working, engine was warm to touch on top, apparrently, not enough though. I get that a big mistake was not heating for hours instead of just 40 minutes. . . -- Yes, I do understand the basics and always use the glo plugs, except in hot summer months. -- Will check for water separator and get that solved. Do not believe I have ever checked or drained it and notice the MANUAL(!) says to check every day. hmmmmm. -- Manual says change diesel filter every 500 hrs. I believe it has been changed / checked less than 150 hrs ago. Will do NOW though! Seems possible its partially loaded. Thought I replaced that last year but need check records (may have been hydraulic filters.) -- It is likely I DID use the correct amount of 911. However, I will probably not use it again. . . based on input here, sounds like it may have contributed to some of the hard running after start. OR I will use it WITH the Cetane boost fluid to PREVENT gelling-- that was my intent, but I did not understand what I was dealing with, obviously. (Will probably just pitch it.) -- loader is in small shed and I have to use a 6 kw generator to run the heater. . . thus only 40 min -- I still may buy another mag heater for hydraulic oil. Bottom of engine is all enclosed with 1/4" steel cover plates. Hard to heat with tent heater . . . -- next fall I will verify at pump that diesel is winter rated before buying, Probably was, but did not realize you can check at the pump. -- If the fuel LINE was a problem seems like it would be leaking right? no leak. Why replace otherwise? PLUGGED? -- I still feel the hydraulic fluid has some bearing on this. After becoming operable with engine running "OK" everything was sluggish. Remember the entire drive train is hydraulic: track movement, bucket, everything. I do have the correct hydraulic oil. I think that after checking the water separator, diesel filter for plugging, and running heater LONGER(!) my problems will mostly be solved based on what I hear. Thanks Gentlemen!
More than likely the fuel pump has to "lift or pull" the fuel from the tank. This has the fuel hose in a vacuum situation and a leak would not show up as it would be leaking air into the fuel hose. Mike
Don't have to pitch the diesel 911, it has its place. Just don't use a lot, like filling up a filter. I always put a couple tablespoons in, when replacing a gelled up filter. the reason I know, is once I filled up a kuboter filter wif it, had the cut out problem, so's I just let the kuboter run, fer about 45 minutes, till it was runnin right, back on straight diesel. Power service products, both 911, and the one in the white can, are good stuff, IMHO...
What is the "correct" amount of 911? I thought that was for filling the filter when it waxes up and you're stranded on the side of the road? The amount is a little irrelevant, kinda like how many shocks you need from a defibrillator, the number doesn't really matter so much, you keep going till it works. So most people don't get jolted every so often to prevent a heart attack, don't use an emergency product for preventive use. There are plenty of anti gel (MIXED into the fuel BEFORE it's waxed) and cetane boosters for easier starting (that you shouldn't need EVER with a block heater and/or glow plugs). I'll disagree about the block heater. 40 minutes with a block heater is plenty. Maybe if it was -40 and an older engine you'd need more than 40 minutes. This engine and any other modern engine in half decent shape should start at 30 and run smooth in 5-15 seconds max with no heat. Who's this guy in "sunny SC" and what's he know about block heaters? he probably has a winter front buttoned all the way up when it's 40 I still doubt the hydraulics has anything to do with it. Fuel hoses can do all kinds of funny things, if you don't want to replace the fuel line (like if it's impossible), tee into the injection pump supply line and run a line to a vacuum/pressure gauge in the cab, that will tell you what's up. And a clear line for the return to see if there's air in the fuel return.
Also, Some of the Perkins diesels had a fuel line from the injector pump to a fitting on the intake manifold. That fitting is the glow plug. It warms up and a small amount of fuel is passed threw while cranking to help it start. Not sure if you have this setup or not. It was used on Massey Ferguson tractors for years as they used Perkins engines.
On my PT30 I had a kinked fuel line. would run for 5-10 min and then shut down. Replaced and rerouted fuel line and problem went away.
I bet this unit has the little Japanese Shibaura Perkins. Some of those had a fuel return line past the injectors to tank, others dead end to the injection pump. I wonder if 911 or air got to the injection pump and could not get any farther, hence the problem running.
OK guys thanks for the input. Today I have set the heater on and after another half hour will plan to start it. . . 3 hrs with block heater, blankets on top engine, a small radiant ceramic heater pointed at engine block-- 15°F outside, machine in the shed, door shut. However, when trying to "drain" the water separator I found NONE existed. BUT, the manual shows one. IT appears last owner DELETED this function! New one costs $100 and 4 wks delivery from UK! The fuel filter DOES have a little screw-on cap in bottom to cover that port-- apparrently made to "replace" the screw-on water separator. LOOKS somewhat OEM or made specifically to be used instead of a separator bowl. WONDERING: Could it be that another way to service for water in filter may be to just weekly(??) drain out a bit of fuel and not "check" the bowl for water??
NOT sure. I need to look over and get ser# from engine to ask Perkins.
Further details, in order of above: -- NO water separator bowl under the blasted fuel filter, capped off at bottom with a nipple on it and when I unscrewed it partially some diesel came out. Tightened up as it was. New one is $100. I have not changed diesel filter in last 2 yrs. -- I understand suggestions related to fuel lines but have no reason to believe that started out of the blue. Will focus on water separator and filter change for now. -- I only feel the hydraulic fluid is involved due to the slow running after engine started and warm because of the sluggish response until things freed up all of a sudden.
change the fuel filter
more info: I was wrong initially stating 911 was used. It WAS the CETANE boost product. So, it DID probably prevent gelling. Assuming it did, it seems there must be another source. Filter plugged. . .? fuel line plugged or leaking air? Symptoms today while trying to start : temp 18°F, blankets on engine, both block heater on and ceramic radiant heater pointed at engine for 3 hrs. Started right up idled smoothly at 1500 RPM . . . then slowly lost RPM's and died after about 20 seconds. Did this twice, then would not re-start. Now, guessing, the fuel supply is not getting to injectors somehow. I bought a new diesel fuel filter today. Maybe the filter is plugged, will find out tomorrow upon replacement . When I bought the filter it came with the same little screwed in drain plug at the base where water separator normally would mount, like on MY unit. Discussing with tech at local ASV shop he said it is just as common for the fuel filter simply to be drained on a regular basis as to watch the water separator and drain as needed. So, now that I KNOW it is there, I will start draining it every time before use. . . uh, and changing the filter more than every 2 yrs. I will report in when I change the filter out.
You needn't take the plug out, just loosen it some, if you have water in it, it WILL be in the bottom, and water wicks its way nicely out of loose threads. As to other sources of fuel restriction, sometimes the filter sock, in the fuel tank can get clogged, and once, I had the end of the fuel pickup pipe break off, wouldn't run with less than a 1/2 tank of fuel in it. If this is the case, it involves pulling the seat out, to get to the tank, if the tank is like the one, in my RC-30. If you end up going through all that, you might as well replace the fuel line, as it is easy to fish through to the tank, with the seat out... When I did mine, I also installed a boat primer bulb, just in front of the injector pump. Yours may have an electric or manual primer, IDK...
if the fuel filter has a drain then it is a water separator also. you don't have to check it every day, just as often as needed, so start with every day, if there's no water, go to once a month. Keep draining it every time you use it if there's even a drop of water. If it's below freezing then you might have ice in there but still get diesel dripping out, check it after it's been running a while, or when it's been above freezing long enough to melt the ice. 2 years on a fuel filter is fine with low hour use, the filter is the easiest thing to check on this issue, that's why you want to change it. If you wanted to tee a pressure/vacuum gauge into the fuel supply system in different places, that would tell you what is plugged up, and you might avoid changing the filter, probably easier to change the filter and take apart the suction side of the system. I'd wait UNTIL it's been running smooth and warmed up to change the filter, it's much easier to prime and restart a warm engine. You run a cold engine out of fuel from changing the filter and you'll be screwed. You don't have to guess the fuel's not getting to the injectors, you've been told that about a dozen times and given about a dozen possibilities why. This second starting scenario makes it much more clear that you have a blocked fuel supply. The only other possibility (so unlikely that you shouldn't even consider at this point) is that there is a strange electrical issue affecting both the engine and hydraulics, I only say that because you were insistent that the hydraulics were sluggish too. Wait till the engine is figured out before worrying about the hydraulics.
Yesterday, changed diesel filter. JUST this morning: heated engine for 2+ hrs with block heater and 250W IR lamp, covered with blanket. Started, ran up to 1500 RPM, but died after about 20 seconds-- ran pretty smooth then started faltering, died. Put her on the heat again and will try again after another hour or so but not expecting it to keep going based on last 2 times trying. . . Sounds like this must be fuel line related. I noticed there is a small bleed(?) screw(allen head) on top of fuel filter housing. Wondering if there is a process by which I can bleed out the line and also verify I am getting flow by cracking that?
Was this the first time it started after changing the filter? you might have got air into the injection pump and made it harder to start. The next try will tell you what's going on. If you don't want to use a pressure/vacuum gauge, you can bypass the fuel tank and hook the fuel supply up to a temporary tank, which can be anything from a boat tank to a quart oil container half full of diesel. If the engine starts and runs for a couple minutes that way, then you've narrowed it down to the tank and whatever else you've bypassed.
I ALWAYS loosen the fuel INLET line AT the injection pump to bleed the system.. THAT, gets the air out of all the fuel SUPPLY lines INCLUDING the filter. THEN, loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS to get the air out from the pump TO THE INJECTORS.. Once fuel is THERE, at the injectors, tighten them & go..
Thanks for the input Delmer. OK, here's what happened after waiting another 1.5 hrs longer heating . . . she started up, kept running, a bit rough to start but then pretty quickly levelled out and KEPT GOING SMOOTHLY. No sluggishness that would lead me to believe the hydraulics should be heated also or that anything is wrong with them. This is after changing the filter yesterday and having it stall after only 2 hrs heating this morning. Based on my experience I believe this: -- pretty simple: I should have never even tried to start without at least 4 hrs of heating. This was the longest I had pre-heated; it started relatively fine and kept going smooth. Cleaned my 1/3 mile lane and it worked flawlessly. I moved the machine up to the house where I can run extension cord for heating rather than the more painful process involved with using the generator out at the shed! -- when changing the filter, I had filled it up with diesel (+ Cetane boost additive to correct concentration) so do not believe there was any air messing up the injected fluid. -- It was about 25°F this morning so I cannot believe gelling was an issue especially since ALL the diesel in the tank and from the new filter had Cetane boost to prevent gelling. I am guessing that I would not have had any problem at all if I had only heated longer, that simple. Thanks for all your help folks.
Just reading this thread.....my ASV PT-50 did this a few times this winter (starting then dying). Temps were below zero. Engine had been plugged in. Just kept starting it and eventually it would catch. I think the most cranks was three. A key is also to let it warm up at idle; don’t rev it up. I also kerp a tarp over it when not in use - keeps snow melt from freezing in the engine and on my door. I drain the water separater regularly; never noticed any water in it. I use 5 gallon fuel cans for my fuel; i always put a bit of Cetene (white bottle) in the can before filling it.
Just for fun, after this has started and run flawlessly a few times for you, try starting it up some morning between 20-30 degrees without plugging it in. If it doesn't start, something is still wrong.