Hi Guys, Many of the new trucks (777F) have an "engine economy mode" which can be chosen as a "change parameter" on the ecm. We run a fleet of 785C APX trucks and I was reading on the internet an Australian mining article where they mention that earlier trucks can be flashed to include this economy mode, has anyone out there got any information on this and if it can be done? Cheers, Bucknobs. ..
777F have the C-32 ACERT and the 785C have a 3512B EUI. Different generations of Engine and Software so I don't believe there is an Economy Mode for the 3500. There is a TYPO in SIS that refers to it though. They also differ in the Transmission between ECPC and ICM so the Drivelines are a generation apart. Some ADEM-II have a Dual HP setting that could be interpreted as saving fuel but it is more do do with Transmission longevity and matching truck fleets. Happily proven wrong if any one has differing information?
Hi CAT793, Thanks for the reply, I searched high and low for it and can,t find nothing so I think your right. But one thing where do you see it refered to on SIS? Cheers, Bucknobs
Wasn't the "Dual HP vs Multitorque" engine HP setting originally introduced for the 793B/C trucks so that you didn't overpower the drive train on a B if you dropped a C engine in it..? 793 is correct when he states there is no economy mode for 3500 engines (even the latest ADEM IV versions). The only way to "dial back" a 3500 like in your 785C trucks would be to change the setting of the "Fuel Ratio Control Offset" parameter in the engine ECM. These are factory set at 0 but are (from experience) adjustable from -25 to +25. The purpose is to prevent the engine from black smoking as turbo boost is rising. Set the parameter negative and it should give you a more economical fuel setting but not quite in the same way as the Economy Mode on a C-Series engine.
Hi Nige, Thanks for your reply also. The "fuel ratio offset to -25" I have done on three trucks and after checking after three days of running the gallons per hour did drop on average from around 24 to 22 galls per hour but after checking again after ten days thinking I,d got the solution the burn rate has returned to around 24 gph and no one has touched the ECM because the "Tattle Tale still reads 1" How do you think this can be ???????????
I wish I had an answer, but unfortunately not. Unless the engine duty cycle has changed in the meantime because of a different haul cycle, less idling time, steeper ramps, or a combination of any/all the foregoing.
The haul cycle is the same nothing changed in the pit gradients. What I'm thinking is CAT may have done something to the latest engine flash file where it kicks out the parameter change after a time period? Could that be a possibility?
I doubt it. If that was the case the parameter would revert to zero. There are some parameters that can be adjusted so long as ET is connected but revert to what they were as soon as it's disconnected. FARC is not one of them. Has the average payload gone up, even by just a few tonnes..?
Bucknobs, If you advanced word search Economy Mode in SIS (no Serial No.) you will find a very old Document written for Quarry Trucks that accidentally had LOHT included in the Models Covered. Spot on Nigel. That's why you can't bench flash an ADEM-2 and set it in Multi Torque. It needs to see 4GX Serial No. On the EPTC-2 through the CDL before you can select the Rating. On the Fuel Burn difference we see this all the time where people wind back the Engines and they burn the same (on occasions more) Fuel. I believe it is a combo of Two things:- * they are on grade longer. Slower cycle time. * the ECM changes the End of Injection Timing to make DESIRED BOOST. Saving is negated. We were told by Cat that this setting in F trucks is not a true Fuel Saving MODE. But a Fleet Matchind tool. For example if you have B, C, D and F Models all on the same run.
Thanks Nige / CAT793, The payloads are the same Nige, I think you must be right CAT793 with the burn rate issue but why for the first three days an improvement of around two gallons??? I was wondering if its not the flash file and if its not worth going back to an older flash file and trying it, presently its 3064193.
Try analyzing your VIMS operational statistics (particularly stopped empty/stopped loaded time) for those 3 days and compare them with (say) 1 week before and one week after. There may have been something happen that is so small it appears on the face of it to be insignificant, but the numbers won't lie. Previous Flash File is 277-7209 but it's not available for download (only the latest file 306-4193). You'd have to get someone at the dealer who maintained a "library" of Flash Files as they were issued and obviously kept them as they were replaced by newer ones. Usually the factory is less than co-operative about going backwards with Flash Files. TBH I don't think it's your problem but that is just MHO.
OK Nige I,ll ask around if anyone on the other mine sites has a copy of the 277-7209 flash file, incidently when did the 306-4193 come out recently or a long time back?
Somewhere between June and August 2007 as far as I can make out.
Wow thats ages back. Anyway thanks for both of you putting heads together! One last thing though on these 785C APX trucks can the engine ecm be programmed (like some other ecm,s) to shut the engine down after a predetermined time of idling in neutral with the park brake on like queing for long periods at shovels?
AFAIK only the very latest & greatest versions of the 3500 machine engine equipped with the ADEM IV ECM have programmable engine shutdown. For example our 789C trucks don't have the feature, our 789D trucks do. If the truck is so equipped there will be a switch on the dash (2nd from left on the bottom row, directly above the heater/fan controls, marked with an engine and an egg-timer symbol) to activate and deactive the system. The factory default is OFF, you have to go into the engine ECM with ET and first activate the parameter then set the timer for how many minutes you want the engine to run before shutting down. The default is 5 minutes IIRC.
Thanks Nige! Any good retrofit company that makes and sells a really professionally made one you would recommend? But off course would not go through the ecm.
The problem is that most turbo timers I've come across are designed to cool turbos after a period of flat-out engine operation and will only shut off the engine (after a programmed period of time) if you turn the key off. If I understand it correctly you want a system that shuts the engine down after a certain amount of idling time, key off or not. I personally haven't seen anything like this but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Most of the good turbo timers I came across were out of Australia, maybe one of the HEF members from that neck of the woods can point you in the right direction.
Yeah, of course I should have mentioned it must be at low idle! with both park brake applied and in neutral ideally for three to five minutes or I would bugger up the turbos. For the retrofit I will try RCT (remote control technologies) in Australia they do a lot of mining add-ons. At another mine I worked on in Africa we bought stuff from them. Another one for saving fuel, what are your thoughts at tipping load at idle instead of operator revving high?
We train our operators to floor the accelerator pedal and pull the hoist lever at the same time, then when the hoist cylinders hit the 2nd stage drop the engine RPM to idle and let the body carry on upwards, all the time watching the load in the mirror and let go of the hoist control and roll the truck forward (we always held it on the retarder rather than the parking brake) so that the last of the load just nicely cleared the end of the body as the truck rolls forward.
Regarding idling times whether it be queing at shovels or whatever, what is a good benchmark in the mining industry to aim for? Our fleet of 19 785C trucks average out around 23% idling.
Originally Posted by bucknobs "what are your thoughts at tipping load at idle instead of operator revving high?" I would be surprised if you could get it to tip with a rated load at idle, if you could it would certainly lower fuel burn but guess what would happen to your idle time figures, increase even further and you are not working if you are idling in my book. One thing i absolutely hate to see is the cylinders topping out at full height with the engine still at HI, almost always results in tranny abuses as circlips don,t let it come back down to idle before selecting 1st along with big pressure spike in the hyd system and hoses popping right there and then. Interestingly i like what Nige does with what is used at the tip head to hold the truck, the retarder. Safety jockeys down here insist you must have the park brake applied at both the tip head and whilst under the shovel as the operator may have a heart attack, to me it just cycles the **** out of things like the PB switch for 0 benefit and the big bonus with using the retarder is the oil is cycled through the coolers whilst the lever is pulled.
That's how I was taught to do it back in the Age of Steam (or at least it seems that way now) so that's still how I recommend/train to do it. Note: Letting of the throttle at the start of the 2nd stage only really works with fairly dry material. With sticky material you might have to go further up the 2nd stage before letting off in order for the load in the body to start to move.