I know your not supposed to run multi-weight in a Detroit. I didn't know that when I did the change to the upper on my P&H 440TC, so I want to put the right stuff in it. Seems like the right stuff is Delo 100, also seems like it's kinda rare stuff. Where do the rest of y'all get oil for Detroit? Can you run non Delo 100 40wt? Only place I could find that has 100 is online from 'West Marine' and before I start ordering oil online, I'd like to know if there is any better option. As usual thanks for any and all info.
I think any brand 40# would be fine, as long as it's a good quality diesel engine oil. You're probably going to have to special order any brand, since there aren't many of those old screamers left.
If the store has it on hand I go with strait 30 wt oil . They generally don't so end up putting Shell 15/40 in the Detroit . I know this is against the grain on oil specifications but it seems to work fine for us . Main thing is change oil every 100 hours or so . These engines leak a little diesel under the valve cover by nature that thins out the oil over time . Keep an eye on oil pressure at idle , when she drops to 5 psi at idle when hot it's time to change the oil regardless of hours . My old Boss always said " put something slick in it " ..... That's been my experience as well , they will run on any kind of engine oil .
I order it through my local oreilly's auto parts store. Comes in 1 gal jugs. Sometimes takes a few days
The main problem with the 15W/40 oil is the friction modifiers that keep the viscosity of the oil stable across a given temperature range. These friction modifiers break down in the shear stress of the Detroit upper and lower piston ring configuration, these engines have pistons that are very different than pretty much any other diesel engine. Yes, Delo 100 40 weight meets the specs for these engines the best, but what matters is any SAE 40 oil with a sulfated ash content of 1.0% or less. Texaco Ursa meets the spec, and Mobil Delvac 1240 works as well. Yes, these oils are getting scarce as there's not many applications that call for them now days, but as crane op mentioned you can typically order them if you can wait a couple of days. BTW, Delo 400 SAE 40 is out of spec and so is Rotella SAE 40.
When I worked offshore we put Shell Rotella T15W40 in all the Detroits. We had hundreds of 471's and 671's among others, quite a few 453's, too. No lubrication problems that I was aware of and we sent oil samples to the lab quarterly. edit: However, few of these engines, which were used mainly in cranes and fire pumps, got more than a couple hundred hours on them a year.
Yeah check , currently running Shell 15/40 in the Detroit powered excavator and no issues . I like the SAE 30 the best , sometimes you can find it at Wall Mart in gallon jugs . Spotted some at tractor supply . http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/shell-rotellat1-sae-30-diesel-engine-oil-1-gal?cm_vc=-10005 Even show the SAE 40 . http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/shell-rotella-t1-sae-40-engine-oil-1-gal?cm_vc=IOPDP1
Thanks for the info guys, i appreciate it. Ill start looking and see what I can find.
Years ago the old guys would have jumped all over you for suggesting 15w/40 in a 2 cycle. They were in their 70s in age back then. Now it is crickets. I think too many years have gone by but I will be one to say: don't do it. Always straight weight and hopefully something that meets the spec.
I like 30 # Dello. It is on the shelf at Costco. The Rotella is good too.
Just my 2 cents regarding oil for 2 stroke Detroits. A few years back I had a customer running a pair of scrapers with 12V71Ts at each end, they stubbornly stuck to Delo 400 15/40 engine oil but continuously complained to me about the oil consumption of the engines (1.5 gal. a day per engine). I finally convinced them to try the Delo 100 40 wt. (90 degree temps). Two oil changes and they were down to 1/2 a gallon per day, and that's not bad for a 525 HP turbo Detroit working it's butt off. So now it's 40wt in the summer and 30wt in the winter. I wonder what the extra gallon per engine per day cost them over the years.
Yeah , now you also need know about the Detroit " automatic low fuel shutdown system " . We had one truck today almost get to that stage . I walked out this morning and noticed a low tire on the Jeep . Fired up the GMC wrecker so I could air up the tire & get on my way . Only problem was I forgot to shut the GMC off when I pulled out . Got a call from the Old man about noon ...... " Do you have this truck running for any reason " ? Replied if you don't mind just shutter off before the low fuel system kicks in . LOL !
That's my experience as well RZucker, using 15W/40 in these engines will increase oil consumption and will increase slobber from the air box drain lines. I've been preaching this here at HEF for some time, sometimes I wonder if it's worth continuing to beat this drum. No, I don't have empirical study data evidence to prove this, only my personal experience and what I've gained from others, including studies done by Detroit Diesel themselves back when these engines were prevalent and 15W/40 was the oil of the day, they found the same results mentioned. It's just plain and simple, these engines don't like 15W/40. If you want to get the most life and service out of one, stick with the Detroit Diesel Corp specs, SAE 40 with a sulfated ash content of 1.0% or less, that's their recommendation.
I grew up in a family of Detroit owners, Worked in the local Detroit dealer in high school, one of Dad's best friends worked his way up to regional manager for Detroit Diesel... So the oil thing has been beaten into my head all my life. I used to do Allison transmission for a company that had 15 6V53s and 20 6-71s, they ran Sheaffers 40wt and never had an engine problem, then they hired a new service manager that was a Cummins guy and said everything had to run 15/40.... They lost at least two engines a year from stuck rings and torched pistons or liners.
Yep, that's the carnage that's more expensive than the increased oil consumption, and carnage one doesn't notice until the deed is done. I myself have busted down a couple of Detroits that have suffered the same fate, and it ain't the top of the pistons so much, it's the lower rings and mid piston, friction heat welding the lower rings into the piston, mid piston flaming, then the liners go down and it's pretty much a done deal, piston/liner overhaul.
I say keep preaching. I only realized I shouldn't put multiweight in it from coming across an old post of yours saying so.
Keep beating the drum willie . No one is questioning what you are saying. My frustration comes form stores not having oil on hand when we walk in to grab it for an oil change . Store might have 2 or 3 gallons of 30 wt on the shelf and there we are . End up going with the 15 /40 shell oil . So far have not noticed any issues with slobbering , smoke , or oil usage on the excavator . Pretty much run it between 3/4 to full throttle . My biggest concern on an old Detroit is keeping the engine cool when hogging on a hot day . Old " Boss" always said keep them under 210 F . I keep mine under 200F . High heat temps will break down oil quick & kill any engine . We pull the side panels off the HyHoe excavator in hot weather so she gets a little more air to help keep it all cool for the Detroit . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2528&viewfull=1#post2528 Mine are all natural aspirated , they last forever seems like . Guessing alskdjfhg's upper Detroit in the P&H crane is the same . Engine will idle most of the time and not be subjected to high temps ? There for it's a little more forgiving on type of oil . Put something slick in it .
td, that idling stuff is what will stick the rings worse than anything. check with a local oil jobber and buy the Delo 100 by the drum... Your Detroits will love you. Just sayin'
:exactly
I often felt that a Detroit in a crane application was one of the worst ones there was, but they were probably the cheapest option so everyone went to them. There is a little 3-53 genset that the company I worked for has had for many years. Someone got the idea of using it to power a few lights at night and the block heater on a 3412 Cat genset. Then they wondered why that was the nastiest slobbering engine they ever saw. Probably could have run everything that Detroit powered off a 5,000 watt Honda genset and made the neighbors happy too!
Since the throttle linkage is pretty screwed up (someone before me really did a number to it), and I'm too lazy to fix it as close to right as possible. I just lock the throttle in position at the engine with a pair of vice-grips, so the upper (a 4-53) runs pretty close to wide open all the time. Heard (again on this fourm) that Detroit's don't like to be idled and would really prefer to be loaded constantly. I also agree with kshansen that a Detroit in a crane isn't the best, kinda counter intuitive by that logic. But had the crane had another engine in it, they might have been able to start it at the auction lot (blower cut off was engaged), and it may have sold for more money. Who knows. Once I got that cut off opened (had to be told again from this forum that it was there to begin with) the engine started in less than a second.
Okay now tell the truth you tripped the emergency shut down when no one was watching just hoping no one would figure it out and then the "DEAD" engine would keep the bidding down!
Hahah you overestimate me. I did see the emergency shut down in the cab and I did mess with it, but if I tripped it I wouldn't have know at the time. Never seen a Detroit or friction crane in person before then so its a good thing it didn't start. The upper would crank at the auction, and the lower started and ran great, so I bid on it assuming that it was locked out somehow. I'm no expert or mechanic, but I've spent enough time around junk to know it when I see it, and this machine had lots of good signs. It was ugly but I don't think its ever been abused or has too many hours. I got really lucky with it.
I use D-A Extra Treated Diesel Oil II 40w. Great products and great service.
Will sure look in to it RZucker . That would be the only practical way to have it on hand . We buy most of our oil & grease from a Rural King farm supply store . No love for the SAE 30 Rotella ? http://www.ruralking.com/rotella-t-30-wt-1-gal-bucket.html We've had such good luck with Rotella 15/40 over the years in engines I've thought about buying it in 55 gallon drums & putting it everywhere . http://www.ruralking.com/55-gal-barrel-15-w-40-oil-rotella.html Engine , transmission , hydraulic tank and finals in equipment , trucks and the lawn mower . Thoughts ?
You have to consider back in that day there weren't as many engine options. The Jap engines weren't prevalent at that time, and the American truck engines, Cat, Cummins, Mack, sure, there were some of their engines that would work in those applications, but the engines available from them back in the 60 through the 80's were more designed for truck frames and transmissions. Then there was Detroit, engine options that spanned from 2 cylinder industrial engines, the 71 and 92 Series truck engines, and the 16V off road engines, choices out the wazoo. Then there was the Detroit configuration, CW or CCW, starter on left or starter on right, intake left exhaust right, exhaust right intake left, exhaust intake both on same side, then the ease of mounting various pumps or compressor, it was just so easy for crane manufacturers to take a Detroit and configure it to fit perfectly in their frame and application. No other engine to my knowledge has ever been built that can match the configuration versatility of a two stroke Detroit.
Don't get me wrong I always liked the various Detroits I worked on, from the 3-53 in that genset up to the 16V-71's in the old Mack M-65's with just about every thing in between. Your post got me wondering if Detroit inspired the Lego company back in the day or was it the other way around? Quick check seems to say Detroits were being built a few years before the plastic Legos. Just grab a pile of parts and build what ever you want!
Don't feel bad about it kshansen . You just have been out of the game for a little while Bro . That's called a well earned retirement .:thumbsup We are going to send some cherries home on a bid job . Job will be a little noisy , LOL !
I suggest D-A Lubricants in Indiana. They ship overnight and the products are second to none, I have used them for 40+ years and have never had a problem. Their technical department actually answers question and will provide the correct products the first time. I use D-A Extra Treated Diesel Oil 40w in my Detroit Diesels. http://www.dalube.com/
Guess ill give a close to this thread. Bought 3 5 gal buckets of delo 100 from West Marine. At $24 a gallon its not exactly cheap stuff. Looked into a 55gal drum, and the per gal cost is less, but the shipping is much more. West Marine ships the 5 gal buckets to a store for free and there is a store real close to the house, so bought it from them. http://www.westmarine.com/buy/chevron--delo-100-diesel-engine-oil-sae-40-5-ga--6865356
you can order it at oreilly auto parts stores in gallon jugs for 19.99 a gallon
We still have about a dozen Detroit engines in use where I work, most of them in emergency stand-by type applications. We run single grade PetroCanada Duron 30W or 40W in all of them except one. It's a Whiting Trackmobile with a 4-53. When we got a rebuilt engine for it from the Trackmobile dealer, they specified use only Shell Rotella T6 5W40 synthetic. So we have. About 4 years of hard work later, everything is fine. Very little slobber and almost no oil consumption between 250hr services. I haven't tried the T6 5W40 in any of the others Detroits........yet......
I tried too, but the website wouldn't let me. Kept saying like "permenatly out of stock" or something. And then when I asked at the store, they looked at me like I was wanting a rocket stage for a Saturn V.....
We lucked out on the last oil change for the excavator . Farm supply store had Shell 30 WT oil in stock . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2648&viewfull=1#post2648
thanks boys for all the good info. as i did not know about oil thing DD are a little new to me but now have 2 a 6-71 in a S-12 and now a 4-71 in a S-7 scarper. i have to see what i can come up with for that meats the oil speck. what i looking for is 40-W with sulfated ash content of 1.0% or less. right all my rigs will be run in the summer time only as there just play toys. not trying to go down another rabbit hole but i did read in my manual that they should only idle for 90 seconds?
I have to agree with Willie. I worked for a company in 1983 that bought out another company that was predominantly 2 stoke Detroits. 15W40 was to be the only oil and they we dropping like flies and or slobering like they had rabies. The last of those I was around were 1995 8V92's runnings Delo 100. One had 20,000 hours on it and never had the heads off.
[QUOTE="mog5858, not trying to go down another rabbit hole but i did read in my manual that they should only idle for 90 seconds?[/QUOTE] Makes me wonder what happens if they idle past the 90 seconds ? Something bad ?
Most commonly known as "wet stacking", unburned fuel and oil builds up in the exhaust system which is then forced out of the "stacks" (pipes) when it's under load, commonly leaves a trail down the exterior of the pipes. Add to that a common quirk with Detroit engines, extended idling will build up oil in the airbox, then when you drive off under normal load it will burn that oil causing a temporary "run away" with the engine. This happened to me once with a 6V-53 during a winter when the driver would start the engine in the morning and let it pretty much idle all day to keep the cab heater warm. When the job was done I started the rig to let it warm up, went to drive it off, after about the third gear change she took off like a raped ape!
Makes me wonder what happens if they idle past the 90 seconds ? Something bad ?[/QUOTE] I have to admit I was an idle Nazi around Detroits. If they didn't need to be running, they weren't.
Normally the airbox drains take care of that excess oil... But usually the drains seem to be plugged with bits of broken piston rings. Funny how much fire ring they can lose and still run strong.
I have to admit I was an idle Nazi around Detroits. If they didn't need to be running, they weren't.[/QUOTE] I really don't worry about it much RZ . Some jobs they idle allot & some full throttle depending on the situation . This is a General Motors two cycle diesel engine built for all tasks & conditions . If these engines are really that temperamental about the oil type & RPM's they are sure standing the test of time . If anything I would consider them one of the most "easy going " engines ever built . Happy as long as they got oil & fuel in them
I was fueling machines at the end of the day and forgot to turn off a 4-53 in my tree shear with a full tank of fuel in the woods a few years ago. Two plus days later when it would not start I discovered it was out of fuel. While looking things over I noted the engine was still warm to the touch. Added 45 gallons of fuel, filled the filters, started it up and went to work. It's still going today. I use straight 30 weight year around and preheat below zero F.
hey OIH your are alive out there. well i had to go back and re read some things. the s7 manual said 5 min's not 90's i don't where i got that from. from what i found aroud hear is SINGLE GRADE BXHD DIESEL ENGINE OIL 40W witch is a Boss lubricant. the ash is 1%. thanks for the help
I have to agree to a point on this. The Detroits do seem to be able to live under all kinds of conditions, some that I would consider outright abuse! For many years we ran 8-71's in IR Drill rigs and when started they would go from cold stopped right up to 1,800 rpm in a mater of a couple seconds. There was a hand control that the operator "could" use to manually hold the governor in the low idle position, but as these drill rigs often were up on leveling jacks climbing up to reach the control was too much effort for the operator so 0 to 1,800 was what they did. I would say that 90% of the problems we had with those engines were from eating the dust that was around them all day. The sickest looking 3-53 we had was a genset that was put in an application way to light for it. Should have been a small Honda 750 watt genset but they used this 3-53 because they had it sitting there. It would sit there running at virtually 0 load for 12 to 16 hours every night and all weekend for months at a time. Despite looking like someone dumped dirty motor oil over it every night it would be ready to go to work the next night. Black mess was from the dripping un-burnt fuel mixed with the exhaust carbon. Then there was the 12V-71 we had in the last Terex haul truck, that was run on 15W-40 oil for several years and was still running the day it was loaded on the truck after it was sold at auction. I'm sure it had several stuck rings as it did not burn very clean and was down on power, but with good set of batteries it would fire right up on its own anything above 60ºF. It did burn your eyes to drive that truck! To make a long tail longer, those old Detroits were and still are tough engines but treating them right does do wonders for the way they run! If I had to have an engine I depended on out in the back woods I would take an old Detroit over any "Modern" engine built in the last ten years! The newer ones are better for the environment I'm sure and may use a bit less fuel but one bad wire or sensor and they are dead in the water.
The big save on those 1800 RPM starts is the cast iron pistons Detroit used. They expand at the same rate as the rest of the engine. Actually I think the thin dry liners in a 71 series would expand to the block bore first giving the pistons time to catch up. Anyhow that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. But try that with aluminum pistons and see what happens. Another reason 2 strokers were good in fire trucks.
A bit off topic but while taking about cold starts with aluminum piston engines. For close to 20 years I rode a XS650 Yamaha back and forth to work at least 11 months out of the year. At home it sat in a 40ºF garage but at work it sat outside sometimes into the single digits. give it a couple kicks drop it into 1st gear and crank open the throttles and go. Total commute distance one way was right around a mile and I did it in short order every time. Never understand why that engine kept running! I probably changed the oil or whatever that stuff was that came out the drain plug hole every couple years or so. I should tear that one down someday just for kicks to see what it looks like inside!
I suggest D-A Lube's Reliant Monograde Diesel Engine Oil, I use it in my 3-53's and 4-53's works great. http://www.dalube.com/pdfs/Reliant monogrades.pdf
It will also glaze the rings and liners.
Detroit are really odd ducks, that's for sure. One of these days I'd really like to find a semi with a 12v92..... When your stuck at the intersection next the idiot playing the radio too loud with an annoying a fartcan exhaust, just idle wide open.....
Just need to make up a set of cut-outs for the exhaust like the hotroders use. Filp the switch to open them up then crank of that V12! Even better if you can find a non-turbo version the turbo acts too much like a muffler! For that matter even a non-turbo 855 Cummins with the pump pressure set on the high side would be good too. We had an old IH with the slant six version of the 855 in it with straight exhaust, that would bark pretty good under load and at night push a nice blue flame out the stack on a hard pull.
Well unfortunately there are no semis with 12V92's factory but the 12V71 was pretty common years ago. 30 years ago or so I was working construction driving a Ford LN 9000 with a V92. One afternoon and setting in the left lane at a stop light I look in the mirror and see a convertible on my right second car inline top down. He was all spiffed up setting there with his girlfriend. My truck had twin weed burners with a 90* turned straight out. Light turned I stepped into it real hard with a third gear start. You can guess what happened. I was feeling a little ornery that day. Truck Shop
You can do the same thing with a 12 valve Dodge Cummins with the aneroid screwed in a turn or so. Had a stupid pedestrian try to cross in front of me against a light so I screeched to a stop before I squashed him. he stepped back on the curb and yelled at me that this was my fault... Huh?. Anyways I was hauling a 12K excavator on the trailer and just inched forward and then buried his dumbazz in coal smoke.
Speaking of oil for Detroits somebody please explain this...came from a 6V92 I saw a couple days ago...
RBMcCloskey thanks for your info about your oil. but i could not help but see that the Ash levels are out of spec. by 27% more. Brodiesel that is a bad looking oil pan was there some kind of engine fail or just a rebuild? thanks for your help guys.
I was always told that it was because the oil pressure on a Jimmy is so low at an idle. Normally at an idle they drop right off to 10 psi or less. When leaving one idle we always reved it up to about 1200 rpm or so, enough so the oil pressure came up to about 20 psi.
Internal coolant leak. Chocolate Mousse.
I have used D-A for 40+ years and have never had a problem with any of their products. The Ash levels have not been a issue in my Detroit Diesels since the 1980's, they are still running great.