Hello. I'm a small contractor in central Va with a fleet of mostly older equipment with mechanical engines and transmissions. We are considering picking up a small paddle pan, more because I want one than any immediate need, but we have been on a couple of jobs lately where I think a pan would have been faster than the couple of on road dumps being loaded by our PC 200. We have a 35 ton lowboy 8'6" wide deck with outriggers, and a 22' deck. Most of our work is within an hour of Richmond, so no mountains to deal with. We also have a good mechanic and a nice shop. We buy stuff and go over it in the shop and rebuild/replace over the winter. We are not a high production operation, most work negotiated, and debt averse. I have been looking at a few Cat 613s and 615s, Deere 762 and 862s, and a couple of 412 IH/Dresssers. A friend of mine is trying to get me interested in a Hancock 294 with a pair of Detroits. I ran TS 14-Bs in the late 70's and think they would be too much trouble to move without buying a bigger trailer. Is the Hancock going to be a nightmare sourcing parts for, or will most of it be supported by Clark or Terex? I would really appreciate your opinions of the pros and cons of the machines I am considering. Thanks.
IMHO converting a Wabco 111A to full hydraulics should be considered. By replacing the generator with a through drive transmission pump, replacing the elevator motor and gearbox with a hydraulic motor and planetary gearbox. For the steering use the same motor gearbox combo with brakes. Then I believe you would have a scraper that could load faster, haul faster and be just as reliable as any Cat or Inter of it's size.
I had a 613 for a time, they are good for tight work and finishing with a grader but awfully small for dirt moving, rough riding little scraper too. 615 is a notch up with a suspension axle and a couple more yards. Really depends on what type of work you are doing. I had a pair of 623's to move dirt, they worked out well for me. Can't comment on the other makes.
Don't be afraid to step back in time fuggley . Elevating scraper was made for a small operator ...... They are about the perfect machine when moving dry dirt .... Grading , haulin & packing . For hoggin dirt drop some teeth on the cutting edge .... HeavyEquipmentForums
Tones, thanks for the input. The only Wabcos I can find are 222's. What would you estimate the cost to perform the upfit to be?
DPete, thank you. I'm seeing auction prices on 613s running between 6 and 10K. Most of my guys are older and would appreciate a better ride, as would I. I also have reservations about the 3208's reliability and replacement options. In your experience, is the 615 worth another 5K? Thanks again.
TD25C, Thanks for your response. FWIW, I LIVE back in time. A friend sent me a copy of an antique construction machinery magazine that featured a Trojan loader that we were using on a job at the local VA hospital at the time, and I saw that at this year's Conexpo, Deere had restored for display a 570A like the one we use every time we need it. Our new triaxle is a '91 120. For us, older stuff works out way better than the debt, complications with computerized systems, and emissions restrictions. I have doubts about the ability to get 10,000 hours from contemporary engines, too. That being said, I want to minimize the engineering and fabrication required to keep stuff running that is no longer supported because the original manufacturer went bankrupt or got bought out. The Hancock interests me because it seems to me to be a good design and well built originally. Detroit and Clark were popular enough, I hope, to still have parts and aftermarket support. My concern is the cost to rework the old girl. Hoses aren't puking, but are extremely weathered, my inclination would be to replace any that are questionable, tires all need replaced, etc.. The gamble is whether to buy and old pan for a few thousand dollars and put another 10 or more thousand in it and have to sell it for scrap value if we have another "economic downturn" like '08-'15 was for us, or to get something like a 615 at what is likely the bottom of the forseeable market, use it for maintenance cost, and recoup most, if not all the initial purchase price if things get crappy again. Thanks.
With what tires & hydro hose / parts cost today you may be better off spending more up front & buying a running machine that's been maintained . I've been eyeballin these older Deere 860's . Got the Detroit 6-71 in them https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/20179211/1974-deere-860a
Fuggly, I have no idea on the cost in your neck of the woods. Here in Australia a 90 series 100cc Danfoss costs around 9 grand new so maybe half that in the states. For 222 that size pump could be to small. So far as elevator motors is concerned the only reason I suggested going to a planetary drive is that I assume Wabco gearbox parts would be hard to come by these days. I'm just thinking outside the square. Many years ago I watched a 623 and a 222 working together and the 222 was doing 1/3 more cycles. I reckon the Hancock is away faster loading than a Johnson, that's comparing a 613 to a 111A.
I would urge you to stay away from the 613 just for the sake of that god awful 3208. It's a money pit in any application. Just my opinion. That 615 is a good machine
Thanks, I looked at a 1st gen 615 today. I'll see how that plays out.
Tones, thanks again. I'm leaning towards a running or nearly running piece that is more bolting parts up than anything else.
Thank you. I looked at one today (615) that might work out with a little luck. I'll post whatever happens.
Which 222s are you finding? No way in hell would I try to get away from an electric elevator drive... That's what makes a Wabco kick a Cat in the butt. Had a 222F that ate 623's for lunch that were 20 years newer. I could outload them and get out of the cut faster and I had no fear of running full tilt boogie to stay ahead.
Pretty amazing how efficient those electric drive WABCO's were with the hancock elevating bowl chowing down the dirt .
I've run the old electric steer 333A's that could take a 2'' skim cut and leave nothing but router bit tracks, and no dribble at the end of the cut. cleanest loaders I've ever seen.
Very smooth & tidy machines RZ !
Yep. I think the Hancock bowls loaded better than the later Wabco built bowls because the cutting edge angle was less steep. You got a little less usable life from the cutting edge but it sure loaded better. I've played with a bunch of different machines trying extended flight bars and other tricks but still couldn't make them load like the old Hancock.
This is what we are talking about fuggly . WABCO tractor with a Hancock elevating bowl behind . Damn good combination ! http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2630&viewfull=1#post2630 I got a big laugh out of my uncles comments .......... He said they load better if you push them with a dozer . My God ! Ahh ...... Uncle .... We runnin a WABCO ..... You ran the Terex scrapers . No need to push load a well tuned elevating scraper .
Push loading will just jam up the elevator, but... I have pushed elevating machines in slimy mud/clay or saturated sand. The machine was at wide open throttle with the trans in neutral to put maximum power to the elevator and Mr. push cat guy was instructed to be very gentle pushing and watch the elevator output. Twin engine Wabco's had this built in feathering ability where you could load very fast in a short distance using full power from the front engine and using the rear to just nudge the machine forward as the elevator pulled material in.
I've had to push my 623's in sand but just for added traction not pushing like an open bowl. Operators took the normal cut an I'd just keep the rolling with my 6R.
Bearing in mind that I have never operated a Wabco scraper larger than a 111A but have worked with plenty of 222's, I think the 2 things they had going for them was 1 the Hancock bowel and 2 the Allison trany with the load mode which allowed more engine power to drive the generator. Since the Wabco were built hydraulics have come a long way from driving things with a gear pump. Hence my comment up thread about fitting transmission pumps to drive the elevator. For the last 9 years I have owned and operated a forestry mulcher with the same type of drive system which works a darn sight harder than the elevator on a scraper with no big problems in that part of the machine. I would love to see more Wabcos running today, they were away ahead of there time and Cat hasn't court up yet IMHO.
Yep , They aint made for wet or soft ground conditions . One of the few drawbacks of a scraper . If there is a soft spot on a project a scraper will find it . We did a new approach for a trucking company connecting the driveway to the main road . Used the WABCO C Pull to haul in & compact the clay fill . I asked manager how " tight " the gravel road & parking lot were as we would be using it as a " haul road " ....... He said the road is solid with 24 hour truck traffic plus they added stone & used a roller to pack it in . " OK ... Cool ! " After about 10 loads the WABCO located the shop's septic tank ..... It was in the middle of the road . I kept noticing a depression building in that area and finally a hole opened up . " Sorry bout that " ..... " You boy's gonna need a new septic tank ". Loaded motor scraper has that old time down deep compaction ability
Quite honestly the Wabco 3phase system was more efficient than any high pressure hydraulic system ever could be. The Wabco 252 had a hydraulic drive elevator with a 2 speed Sundstrand piston pump. It never impressed me, other than how well it could blow hoses. I would much rather troubleshoot a nice clean electrical system than change hoses and pumps on a high pressure hydraulic system. But that's just me.
The Old Man & I were having a similar conversation today . Electricity is pretty efficient . Can you imagine running hydraulic lines to each home to power the appliances for the everyday needs of a family ? The old boys at Westinghouse got it figured out early on .
Actually we have old R.G. Letourneau to thank for that... The Westinghouse part was The Air brake division, go figure that one. I never ran a Wabco that had much for brakes.
WABCO ... Westinghouse Air Brake Company . They were in to a little bit of everything at the time .
Yep, and later sold out to American Standard... The commercial toilet company.
I had three C pulls to rob parts out of to keep one machine running. I'd rather replace a hydraulic hose than string wire rope through three sets of shivs because the limit switch didn't work. I'd rather have a power shift machine with a torque converter than change big clutch discs every three to five weeks of operation. I'd rather have a steering wheel than a toggle switch that would through you all over the cab when making minor steering adjustments. I'd rather deal with hydraulic oil than having to polish sets of contact points trying to find where a dead leg was feeding a motor. I'd rather deal with gauges to trouble shoot a hydraulic problem than a multimeter trying to find a short in a hot circuit that could physically through me off the machine. I made a point of spending half a day watching those things get cut up and had a smile the rest of the day.
Thanks to all of you for your help. I haven't heard back on my offer on the 615, but am going to look at a couple of 412's that were parked running a couple of years ago. Owner retired. Anyone have any input on these machines? I expect they will be DT466 engines, not sure of the transmissions, Clark? Any particular weak points or problem areas on these? Strong points? Thanks again for all your help/opinions/experience.
Allison trany if I remember correctly. The 412 was a good reliable machine in it's day. They are much better riding than a 613.
Thanks again, Tones. Better riding is good.
Thanks again to all of you for your input and help. I bought a pair of 412B's that have locked engines and need a few tires that need replacing. They were running well a couple of years ago, but are seized at present. I'm thinking about shooting Marvel Mystery Oil in through the injector ports and try to bar them over after they sit a few days. Around here mechanical 466's are still available in junkyards and a kit from the dealer is about $2,500. What I'm trying to get a handle on is what else the Twin Disc 4 speed powershift transmission may have been used in. I am told, and believe, that they are good, but Trans Axle quoted me $9,900 if I need a soft rebuild with another $7,000 for a torque converter. Thanks again for the benefit of your experience. Merry Christmas!