or two. I had an oil cooler fail @ 250K miles, 10,000+ hours on an 06 C-13 Acert. I was told I possibly "over treated" the coolant by adding small amounts of DCA coolant treatment over the life of the engine so far. I changed the entire cooling system antifreeze at 150K miles. I was told by the Cat dealer the newer "long life" antifreeze already has conditioners in it and the fluid is good for three years. By adding additional conditioners he stated it has the reverse effect and makes the system even more corrosive ? Is it possible to over treat and create this condition ? Next question is when the dealer plugs into my ECM to have a peek does anything change automaticaly ? Thanks fella's. Ron
Basically DCA coolant treatment is designed for "conventional" antifreeze. There's not a lot of that around these days. The current standard of organic acid based (OAT) coolants do not use or require coolant treatment. Cat's version of OAT coolant is known as Extended Life Coolant and comes pre-mixed. The coolant is good for 6 years in an on-highway engine so long as it is treated with "ELC Extender" (basically a concentrated version of the same coolant) at 3 years. I'm not sure about the equivalent mileage numbers, I think it's 300,000 & 600,000 but I'd have to check. Have you been getting your coolant analyzed the same way as you get your oil done..? An analysis should have flagged up straight away the fact that DCA additives were being added to an OAT coolant. Nothing changes in your ECM unless someone changes it. When the ET tool is connected to the ECM all it does is enable the service technician to view the Diagnostic Codes & Events that have been logged. Some codes can simply be deleted, others require factory passwords in order to erase them.
Thanks for the reply Nige, Do you think by adding the DCA to the extended life coolant it hurt the cooling system ? IE: the cooler, the heater core, the trans cooler, etc. When Cat was done flushing eight times I got a refill with the "red" extended life stuff. New T-stats and rad cap too. I am sorry to report I have never done any analysis on this truck (how I make a living) or my D-6H ( how I supplement my living). I try to be proactive and do preventative maintenance thinking this is enough. What do you recomend for a good lab ?
The DCA additive could possibly adversely affect the correct functioning of an OAT/ELC coolant. Let me ask some questions and I'll let you know. Basically a "conventional" antifreeze that uses DCA additives and an OAT/ELC coolant are totally different in composition. New thermostats & a rad cap are a cheap insurance policy after having had major cooling system work done. The dealer should also give you a load of documentation (if they haven't, ask for it) explaining about what ELC is, how it works, and how to look after it (coolant analysis & adding Extender when necessary) over the life of the engine. As a start I'd ask your local Cat dealer what they charge for oil/coolant analysis. Depending on what your oil change intervals are I'd recommend oil analysis every time the oil is changed and coolant analysis possibly every other oil change. Not only does the dealer give you "the numbers" but they also give you an interpretation of how the fluid is performing. Really analysis is all about monitoring trends not just spouting pure "numbers". Many external laboratories simply give the customer the analysis numbers with no interpretation.
Good stuff Nige, I change oil and filter every 10K I changed the trans, and the two differentials at 225K I do fuel filters as needed by looking at the vaccum gauge I change air filters according to the gauge and conditions I change dessicant filter twice a year. There was no explanation for what I got or instructions for going foreword. I learn more from this site than the dealer, both on highway and off road shops have been somewhat of a dissapointment to me so far. Someday I will tell the saga of my D-6H tracks concerning this dealer. Ron
PM me an e-mail address. I'll send you some data sheets on Cat ELC
Multiracer, indulging in all of these activities I don’t think you should have any problem with your machine. I am glad to know that your problem is solved and you are learning more from this site rather than depending on your dealer.
Let's hear about the D6H tracks
I will have to type that after work... it will be wordy ! Be back later. Ron
This issue of coolant is becoming more clear (LOL) as we learn which one to use! I found this pdf, maybe this helps. It was written by Fleetguard and speaks about Fleetguard and touches on mixing types.... there are some words about certain things at a high concentration being more aggressive to solder....is it possible you added more than you thought you did? http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/SB_TB03-05-2.pdf
I wouldn't use Fleetguard filters if they were the last thing on earth. I'm damned if I'm gonna even think about using their coolant ..........
Hi Nige, we had no idea there was a story behind the Fleetguard filter....I posted the link to the pdf only because it offered some words about the coolant chemistry. I am just realizing we had been using the silicate based coolants and probably merit a complete company "redo" to the heavy duty coolant system in all our equipment, cept the Deutz powered compactor of course.
Bob, I wasn't trying to offend anybody with my comments, just expressing an opinion about Fleetguard in general. I've downloaded the article for future reference. It's interesting and debunks quite a few myths, however I don't agree 100% with what it says. One thing I don't agree with about the article is that it pretty much says (for OAT coolants anyway) that you can mix brands pretty mush any way you like. Well in my experience you can't necessarily. Why..? Well some OAT Coolants (Cat is one) contain nitrites to the level of 500ppm in new coolant. Others (Like Mobil) are nitrite-free and obtain their anti-corrosion properties a different way. You CANNOT mix "nitrited" and nitrite-free coolants in the same radiator in my experience.
Gentlemen, Thank you all for the responses. It is possible that I overtreated my Glycol after changing it out . It is also possible that stray current had something to do with the early failure. I keep my truck plugged in at all times so the block heater is using a/c current constantly. I have the test kit's coming for coolant and lubricants, so my testing will begin next week. ( Thanks Nige for the information) The dozer track story starts here... After contacting the PSS guy at CAT to come out and identify my issues he offered that there was a machine coming in for undercarriage replacement soon and the tracks were very useable. So, I waited a couple of weeks and found out he was on vacation. After he returned he was to check on the machine and get back to me. Well, another couple of weeks went by and I had to call him. He assured me the machine was due in the shop soon and that the tracks were good but needed a pad swap because mine were 22" and these were 36" LGP tracks. I said no problem, mine were already stripped, cleaned and hard face welded. I waited another couple of weeks and called him yet again. This time I was told the tracks were good, they needed to be shortened by them (41 pin vs 39 pin) and we agreed upon a price sight unseen. (what did I have to loose? this was the CAT representative.. right.) He finally got the tracks released from the customer, shortened by the shop and called to say they were ready to be picked up. I grabbed the trailer and a check and off we went. While I was inside dealing with the paperwork my son was outside with the yard man getting them loaded when my phone rang. He stated that I should really come outside and take a good look at the tracks. The yard man had the first set up in the air on the forklift exposing the inner side of the tracks. Needless to say from the exterior these units looked better than my originals but the bushings and the rail height were shot ! Just about every bushing had a hole punched in it and if it did not have a hole then it was fractured. I went back inside and demanded to see the supervisor of the shop. After him looking over the whole situation and agreeing this should have never taken place he assured me he could find a solution. I told him I was led blindly down this road for seven weeks by a 35 year veteran CAT reperesentative ! He then informed me he was retiring in a few weeks !!!! This whole project of budget track replacement was started over the Christmas holiday and it was now early March and my machine was still shored up in the shop. The supervisor was able to supply me with aftermarket chains, hardware and delivery for a very reasonable cost. Once the parts were in hand it took me a whole two days to reassemble my machine and it now is back in the dump working just fine. The lesson learned is NEVER trust experience with your checkbook !:Banghead
Are you sure you have the right coolant test? My understanding is there are different test strips are for conventional nitrite (DGA2) and nitrite/molybdate (DGA4)? and you add the appropriate amount of proper additive based on the test number. Is there a test for the OAT coolants? is this a bottle that you send in and they send you back the results? And then you follow the three years/ add "booster" another three years, and replace schedule?
My test kit's are coming right from Cat. I will let you know more next week.
Talking about stray current. I recall a case years ago on every engine of a fleet of Cat on-highway engines (I think about 30 x 3196 but not sure) where they were failing head gaskets. We found after a lot of diagnosis that there was electrolysis going on in the cylinder head because it wasn't grounded properly due to the aluminium spacer plate between the head and the block. We ended up adding an extra ground cable direct from the head to the block grund stud and the problem went away.
Nige, I picked up on that by reading the literature you sent over. They claim both A/C and D/C stray current can accelerate the problems in cooling systems through electrolisys. I have a friend who is big into testing large boats for the common problem of electrolysis. I will contact him. Thanks Ron
What set us on the path of diagnosing electrolysis on those engines was the fact that when we looked at the pit marks in the coolant head passages in the head (that looked at first glance like cavitation caused by localized boiling of the coolant - and in fact were diagnosed as such by the first people who looked at them - immediately raising questions about cooling system efficiency, maintenance or lack thereof, coolant type, etc, etc,) under a powerful microscope the bottoms of the pits were multi-coloured like a rainbow. To the naked eye all you could see was a pit. I'm sure I have some photos somewhere - I'll have to dig them out.
I cleaned the label off of the drum of antifreeze that I used to refill my engine after a dump of all fluid. It is made by a company out of Illinois by the name of Old World Industries and the product name is " Fleet Charge". It is an ethylene glycol product that states it is SCA pre charged, contains nitrate, and is fully formulated to meet all engine manufactures requirements. ( it list's all major and minor diesel engines including CAT) It goes on to say it is low silicate and phosphate free. I guess I should have read and studied a bit more as I added DCA when I serviced the system and I added a few more ounces when I had a top hose go bad a while back and needed a bit of a refill/ top off.
Those guys manufacture coolant for Cat, amongst others. They are one of the big players in the coolant market. http://www.oldworldind.com/brands/ "Final Charge" is their OAT coolant, and AFAIK the formulation of that product is as close a damnit identical to Cat ELC.
So the concensus is I should not mix these two products. I should go back to cat and get a case of ELC to use as top off or repair refill ?
I'm confused. I thought you said you'd refilled the engine with coolant obtained from your Cat dealer after replacing the failed oil cooler ..?
Yes, use the same stuff from cat, (or if I understood Nige, "FINAL Charge" as a substitute). FLEET Charge is the old fashioned SCA etc. antifreeze for anything that you test nitrites with the test strips. Right???
Nige, You are correct. Cat filled my cooling system with the new ELC coolant after changing out my cooler. They told me to not touch it for three years. I am going to test twice annually per your recomendation. The confusion comes in when I stated I had changed my coolant about 100K miles ago with the old style SCA type fluid. Then my cooler failed and I am chasing a reason why. I will use up the balance of this drum in my dozer as it has the old green stuff in it. And I will start testing all liquids in it also. I will visit Cat again and pick up a case of the new ELC to use as refill or top off in my truck C-13. Kapeesh ?
OK, now I'm on track. If you already have the green SCA coolant in your dozer what's left in the drum of Old World Fleet Charge you have will be fine to top that off so you don't have to dump it. If I were you I'd get a few gallons of ELC premix (or Old World Final Charge - same horse, different jockey) - maybe 25% of the system capacity, just in case. I'd also get maybe a quart (or even half a quart if they sell a container that small) of "ELC Extender". That is the OAT equivalent of neat SCA. If your coolant analysis ever recommends boosting the ELC additives they will most likely recommend that you add 1% of the total system capacity of ELC Extender. So be prepared and have some in your garage.
I agree 100% and I will do just that. Thanks again to the guys and girls on this forum. Ron