I have perkins engine on a backhoe and temperature builds to 100 degree Celsius within 20 minutes. Have done the following so far without any improvement: changed water pump, blocked bypass from thermostat housing to water pump inlet, cleaned radiator, replaced fan, pressure test block and head, refaced block and head, rebuilt the engine with new gaskets. Please assist because it seems I have almost everything with no success.
Attached file is temperature in degrees taken from infra red thermometer
100 degrees C does not seem like that is an issue. Why do you think that is bad? What temp. does the thermostat open at?
It goes beyond 110 degree Celsius, I am just stopping it at 100 degree to avoid damaging the engine, I removed thermostat and blocked the bypass to pump to force all the coolant through radiator
The temperature rarely goes beyond 85 degree, even after working for the whole day
Does it hold water? or blow water out? What does the 85 degrees in post #5 mean? Are those temperatures in the first post three different readings at the same time? different times? The only thing I haven't seen is the belt and pulleys, pulleys can round out and slip. First thing is to double check the radiator, rinse until clean, look through with a light on the other side. Get it to 110 and check the thermostat housing, and the water pump inlet from the radiator, so you're reading a painted cast iron surface for a good reading.
It holds water seems to be no gases in the cooling system, those temperatures are taken at different circles after stopping to cool to 70 degree, as per your proposal will allow it heat to 110 and take again, this engine has no belt but fan is bolted directly to crankshat
The radiator was disassembled and each line cleaned
Radiator temperature is temperature on fins of the fan
That's including 110 degree
At 110 degree radiator cap reliefs, but do not relief at 100 degree
Put a new thermostat in the motor and unblock the bypass. Bob
But with the blocked bypass, you would expect the engine to to heat up slowly
The engine will not heat up slower with the bypass blocked, the thermostat will open the bypass and close the radiator until hot, then block the bypass and open the radiator. The temperatures taken at 85-90 don't tell anything. We need to see what the temperatures of the radiator are at 100-105. I've never seen a perkins without a fan belt. I've never seen a CRANKSHAFT driven fan, the fan should spin faster than the crankshaft typically. Has this overheated quickly as long as you've had this, or did it not overheat before and now it does?
The machine has been working with max temperature of 85 and when it reaches 95 it used to drop back quickly to 80-85. I have used for more than 3 years without this overheating issues.
The fan belt in this machine only drives alternator.
The last temperature on that document are the temperature of gauge from temperature sensor
The temperature sensor seems to be reading higher than the other readings. A temperature reading of the engine block or head, away from the exhaust manifold, is the best judge of coolant temperature. The water pump should be cooler because it is taking water from the radiator. The thermostat should be very close to the block and head when HOT. None of this is causing it to release water, just makes it a little more complicated to see what's going on. How about a picture of the fan and drive off the crankshaft? or what model is this machine?
What's normally difference between infrared thermometer reading and actual internal temperature?
What is the make and model of the backhoe ?
If the surface you read is shiny metal, it will read low. If you read a painted surface, it should be accurate enough for our purposes. The block or head will be very close to the temperature of the water circulating inside it.
The model is venieri 12.23 but engine is Perkins 1004-4 turbo
I would prefer the bypass permanently blocked to ensure all the water passes through the radiator at this time of trouble shooting and then put thermostat back after diagnosing the problem
The model is venieri 12.23 but engine is Perkins 1004-4 turbo
Coolant absorbs the engine heat, it doesn't cool it. Air flow is what cools. Pics of your system are needed
Will post pictures tomorrow
The fan in this machine pushes air through the radiator but not suck
Sucks from side of engine compartment and push through the radiator
Pusher or puller fan won't matter. It should still cool with proper air flow
The genesis of the overheating was a broken fan blade that pieced the radiator but was repaired and replaced. Could not get replacement fan but got new Perkins engine fan which was pulling but not pushing. After installation, the heating issue was not solved so thought the direction of air flow was the issue, cut fins from new fan and replaced all of them on old fan by riveting
By comparing radiator temperature outlet and inlet posted earlier, what temperature gradient across the radiator is expected for efficient cooling?
Now we are getting somewhere. Blades have a specific curvature and direction. Ide bet yours os way off and you aren't moving enough air.
On average it should be 30-40 degrees F
I noticed the blades of the two fans have same curvature but only the blade holders have different directions that's the reason I replaced only the blades, also another difference is the size, the new ones are shorter by 1 inch but wider by 1/2 inch
Or 30-40 degree C?
No. 40 degrees F might indicate the radiator is plugged too much on the water side. 40C would definitely suggest the radiator is plugged on the water side. You want to see about 10C between the top and bottom of the radiator, or the thermostat outlet and the water pump inlet, AT 100C or as hot as you get it. Temperatures without the thermostat open all the way are meaningless. If the radiator has been removed and is spotless, then that will help, as we suspect the airflow from the fan is not enough. The radiator being plugged with dirt would do the same as the fan not working enough, not enough air through the radiator, not enough temp drop on the water going through the radiator.
My conversations is 17-22 degree C
From temp test at 100 degree C gauge temperature, radiator in is 89 degree C and radiator outlet is 80 degree C, at this point the bypass is blocked meaning all the water passes through the radiator.
From what I found, your fan is driven by a hydraulic motor. Is the problem possibly with the hydraulic motor ? Like maybe it is not turning full speed ? I recall an extensive thread about your hydraulic pump dilemma.
Thanks about your assistance on the hydraulic pump, after the forum assistance on modification have never had pump problem again
100 on the gauge, but what is the block or head temperature? The nine degrees is a little low, possibly not enough air. But that's not overheating either.
Running a motor without a thermostat will cause it to overheat. Put a new one in and unblock the bypass. Check the bottom hose. Bob
When it starts to get hot spray the radiator with water and see if it cools down. If it does you have proper coolant flow and your issue is airflow through the fins, as has been mentioned. Is there a shroud that is missing? If you can't get the stock setup to work because parts are NLA, you can fabricate mounts and install an electric fan or two. I would not use the cheesy points that stick through the fins. Vibration will cause those to create leaks over time.
You should check the fan motor for full function. It appears to have it's own pump. If it does, that pump may have a problem. Either the oil supply or the pump is defective.
That's different model please see the mounting on attached file When I spray water it drops from 110 degree C to 57 degree C within 1 minute
When I spray water it drops from 110 degree C to 57 degree C within 1 minute
Sorry. I have the 10.23 parts book. A picture is worth a thousand words ! Is that fan belt tight enough ?
You problem seems to be airflow at this point
This proves the airflow theory. Your cooling system is good; just are not moving enough air.
IIRC you stated earlier that the fan had failed in some way. Did the failure damage the ducting/shroud around the fan that is supposed to direct the air flow from the fan through the radiator.? If it did, was the shroud repaired before everything was reassembled.? Some photos of the fan, radiator, & shroud might be also useful. I know it might seem a silly question, but could the fan be on backwards.? And no, before you ask, installing it backwards will not change the direction of air flow through the radiator.
If I’m understanding it correctly that belt in the photo is the alternator belt. I agree with you though that it appears to be slack.
The shroud metallic and was not damaged but the connection to radiator has a gap all round. Will install rubber seal all round. Fan is right direction, I modified Cummings fan yesterday and fitted but still overheating
Yes the belt is alternator belt, bolts you are seeing is mounting the fan shaft on side of the pulley, the pulley is bolted directly on crankshaft
I bet I'm not the only one that would like to see a couple of photos of the fan and it's belt configuration. They may help for someone to help you. Is the fan belt a serpentine with a tensioner ? Or, a plain ole V-belt ? V-belts have different profiles and need to perfectly match the profile of the pulleys they ride on.
"You can lead a horse to water" springs to mind. According to my understanding the fan is not belt-drive but is bolted directly to the other end of the shaft shown in the photo attached to Post #47.
We are getting bits and pieces. After several posts he mentioned the fan failed and damaged the radiator. Somewhere he mentioned he bought a replacement fan that was the wrong direction and chopped it up to try and fix the original fan. In my day job as a field engineer for a major car company I run into this everyday. For some reason when people are struggling to solve a problem they elect to only give you part of the info. I fix more vehicles with the history, once you pry ALL the facts out of them, than I do with any secret info or super skill. To the OP. It will help you to get this diagnosed if you can provide a series of photos that show the fan setup, shroud , etc. You also should be listing the sequence of events and what you did to get where you are. The tidbits that are extremely important to this problem are coming out slowly. One question I have is did you have the original radiator recored with a brand new core, did the shop "repair it" or is it a replacement radiator? If you gave enough info maybe someone here could help you find the correct fan.
If you are sitting in the operator seat facing forwards, which way does the engine rotate. Clockwise, or anti-clockwise.?
Is there a viscous drive on that fan??? Does the fan turn on the hub? That won't work with the push fan.
The engine rotates clockwise
The fan mounting is compressed between two plates and rubber on the shaft using press then circlip is used to retain it in position
Well that settles that question. At least the fan is rotating in the correct direction to suck air from the engine compartment and bow it out of the radiator. Question 2: Did the original fan that failed sit closer to the radiator than the replacement fan does.? Do you maybe have any photos of the "old" fan setup.? The reason I ask is that (what I assume from the photo) is the replacement fan appears to sit way too far back outside the shroud to successfully direct an adequate air flow into the rear side of the radiator. Below is a snip from one of your photos. IMHO to get optimum flow from the fan through the radiator the rear tip of the fan blade s(red arrow) would need to be at a minimum where the blue arrow is shown. I would guess the fan is probably 40-50mm too far back towards the engine to be anywhere like efficient.
Sorry the engine from driver seat is anticlockwise
That puts a whole different complexion on it. That fan is mounted the wrong way round for an anti-clockwise rotation engine. I guess my next question is - are you sure about that.? EDIT: I think your are correct because here is the data file for your engine. It says clockwise viewed from the front so that would be anti-clockwiuse roatation when viewed from the flywheel end. http://tractorgearbox.com/perkins_1004.4_engine_specs.html The air flow from the fan installed as shown in your photo on an engine roating anti-clockwise looking from back to front of the engine will be severely compromised - air flow could be reduced by 50% or more - by rotating it in the wrong direction. Can the fan be installed the opposite way.? In other words can it be installed so that the side of the fan that is currently facing the radiator would be the side of the fan facing the engine.?
Yes it's possible, will try that, but have a question, by doing that will fan suck air through radiator into the engine compartment or from engine compartment out through radiator?
NO IT WILL NOT. It will still suck air from the engine compartment and blow it out of the radiator. However it will do it far more efficiently, within the limitations of the position of the fan relative to the radiator shroud anyway. Think of an aeroplane wing - a very simple diagram below. Plane is flying in the direction of the blue arrow, the air in front of it is still. The air that produces the lift component that keeps the plane in the air is forced under the wing and although it exits the wing in a diagonal orientation a component of it can be said to be eixting vertically down. A fan blade works exactly the same way but the curvature of fan the blade is far more extreme than the wing of an aircraft as drawn below. As the fan rotates and the (relatively) still air in front of the blade hits the concave surface of the blade it is forced off the bottom side of the blade in a laminar flow pattern along pretty much the same axis as the fan shaft. In your case directly towards the radiator. The air passing over the convex side of the blade will be in turblent flow and could be going anywhere quite frankly. Try comparing this diagram with how your fan as installed right now will behave when the engine is turning anti-clockwise. From Post #52 on the previous page -
1. The original fan was metallic, with 6 fins, oriented in opposite direction than what you see in the photo because the connector from central shaft is twisted in opposite direction, pulls air from sides of engine compartment and out through radiator. 2. Did not get exactly same fan but another Perkins fan with fin holders twisted in the direction you see on photo, with 8 fins, installed and it was sucking air through the radiator and throws out through sides of engine compartment. Since the curvature of old fins and this new fins were same and difference only was that the old fins were longer by 1" and narrower by 1/2", I remove the fins from new fan and riveted on the old fins holder. The fan behaved like original but was doubted it's efficiency. 3. Someone mentioned in this thread that the direction of airflow, either a puller or pusher fan doesn't matter. Getting pusher fan as my original is a challenge. So I took Cummings generator fan the one you see on photo which is made of plastic with 10 fins and fins were longer than original but narrower. I installed, mark the fins clearance from shroud as original fan, removed and cut them to that size which is by 1". After installation, it is puller fan sucking air through the radiator and throwing out through sides of engine compartment. That's what you are seeing on the photo.
Okay, thank you for your assistance will change direction and get back to you
The fan in your photo needs turning round so the blades face the correct way for the rotation of the engine. As it is installed right now I’m amazed it moves air at all.
and narrower by 1/2" It seems to me that is a lot of square inches of surface missing on all those blades. If this fan still won't move enough CFM of air have you considered using an electric fan ?
The airflow improved after changing fan direction, temperature did not pass 100 deg C after 1 HR with engine cover on, will test properly tomorrow. Yesterday I had removed the engine cover before changing fan direction and the temperature was reaching 99 deg C and dropping to 95 but after changing fan direction, this must have improved alot
I'm not surprised in the least. The way it was installed before it was amazing that it was moving any air at all......... To optimize air flow with the fan you are currently using ( which even when optimized may not be adequate for the machine , I do not know) your next step ought to be to either: - 1. Modify the installation of the fan using a spacer so that the blades sit further inside the radiator shroud. You can probably operate with the centre hub of the fan about 15mm (as a minimum) away from the radiator core. From your photos it's not possible to see clearly what the measurement between the fan hub and the radiator core is right now. 2. Modify the shroud by extending it backwards by about 40mm so that it forms a circular duct that encloses the fan blades. (The more of the blades that are showing outside the "duct" the more air flow losses you will have due to air being expelled from the side of the duct insitead of being forced through it and then through the radiator.) 3. A combination of 1 & 2..
Will do that and revert back
That's what I may consider next
when you have made your fan/fan shroud modifications please take a photo and post it here.
Just an FYI with electric fans. They do not move as much CFM as mechanical fans in many cases. Also at full tilt they are very noisy. If going electric I would consider using a fan controller. There are a few types of fan controllers. I would and have used the variable speed with a threaded in sensor. They cheap ones have a high and low speed with a build you jam into the radiator fins. I don't like the bulb you stick in the fins. It can fall out, not get a good reading consistently and eventually from vibration cause radiator leaks. The same goes for the mounting. Make bracket to mount the fan to your existing shroud. Do not use the plastic mounts that stick through the radiator. The vibration will cause leaks.