Where does one find someone that has the tools AND the skill? I've got a JCB 1550B with a stuck king pin. Had to fix things so cut pin off at the top and bottom (leaving about 1/2" on both sides). Got my steering knuckle fixed, ready to put back on but so far, nothing we've tried has budged the pin. I'm about ready to melt it out, was told about this thermal lancing. I AM ready to find someone that does that and at least start a conversation (how much, will they come out here....) For the life of me, I can't find anything like that in the phone book, online.... where do you look? Now, I DO h ave an idea. I have a couple Technical colleges near me (within hour) and they teach welding. It's crossed my mind maybe give them a call and talk to instructor to see if he teaches that and has some students now out in the field that maybe I could contact. Thoughts??
Those things are a learn on the job kind of tool. I don't know how big the pin diameter is, but those tools are real hungry. The deeper you go the more likely the hole plugs up with slag and you veer off course and out of the pin. Most of the stuck kingpins I've had to do, I've had to heat the axle up read hot and then commence to beat the pin. If it doesn't move, I'll cool it down with penetrating oil, wait an hour or so and then try hitting it cold. If that doesn't work, I'll go back to the heat and beat again. I like the air lance for the big things. On the small stuff, it is generally the last option with the risk of having to spend a whole lot more money.
I had to use one on my Isuzu NPRs kingpins. And lots of bigger stuff. Follow through this conversation... HeavyEquipmentForums As for where or who, weld and fabrication shops, or heavy equipment repair shops.
I appreciate your comments. My fabricator guy has a rose bud BUT, I don't know how big they go, it might be a small one. It's maybe the size of a quarter. We've beaten on it with sledge, heated it, I've been oiling it now for probably six weeks So far it simply laughs. He's fabricating a cradle to hold my 30 ton bottle jack and that's our next plan of attack.... So, the lance idea IS sort of my last gasp as I must get the pin out. I do realize it's got some dangers with it (which is why we're trying jack first!!) Thanks for your thoughts. It sounds like we're on similar pages.
Why not remove the beam and have it pressed out at a machine shop. I'm assuming it's a straight axle of course.
As much as I hate to say call a dealer you may have to if you can find any repair shops/welding shops with a lance. Most cat dealers have one if you tell them what's going on and request that the mechanic they send you has one on his truck. You can also search YouTube for home made lances but use at your own risk
Just hung up with my local Cat dealer. Sent him a picture while on phone. I told him he's my current plan "B" as I've already got the wheels turning on making an attempt with a 30 ton bottle jack. He's 2-3 weeks out anyway. so I'll try the bottle jack if that doesn't work (as I'm half expecting) then I'll go back with him. He said his welding dept would probably be a better match after seeing the picture. Said they can blast a hole through it in no time. I'm getting stoked now.... Thanks for the idea. Don't yet know how/when but this thing is toast and I'll be back about my business. (this is for residential use so this is nothing more than a big toy for me that can be expensive to upkeep) Consequently, if they can get out in 3-days or 3-weeks, it's ok....I'm not losing anything since this doesn't earn its keep. Just realized....some guys might have a "Kept Woman" and I've got a "Kept backhoe/loader" Nice! Probably less expensive for me and doesn't sass back.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Assuming it's a standard reverse-elliot arrangement and seeing as you're in contact with your Cat dealer, ask them if their portable track pin press will work on it.
Make sure when you use your jack you cut that pin off flush first. Hitting it with a hammer has swelled the end and I doubt you will push that thru the hole without being to size. Cmark has the right idea creative use of a track press would surely bring that pin out.
This has been a very interesting journey. Frustrating yes, but interesting. I had never heard of the Thermal / Oxygen (whatever the proper name is Lance.... learned about it and now I know a bit more. I have never heard until a moment ago of a Track Press. Now, I'll have to look it up and learn about it. Somewhere along this journey, I'll get it out. I DO prefer to not have a small Mount Vesuvious in my front yard by melting the pin but, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes!! I wonder if I can simply rent a track press??
Do you have the new pins ? I ask that because there is a one in a million chance the pin is tapered. Does JCB use lock pins in their kingpins ?
I DO have the new pin (only doing one side now) They DO use a tapered cotter pin (at least in this machine) Pin is not tapered. BOTTOM of pin isn't mushroomed like the top is so if the bottle jack works, it will be pushing from below. In picture, you can see the flat spot on the pin where the cotter pin meets it and holds it.
What started this whole ordeal is my steering was getting wonky (fighting back) I had pump rebuilt and while gone, realized the cylinder might be the issue. It might be bleeding pressure to both sides. So, went to take it off and discovered rod was bent so it HAD to come off. Couldn't get the grub screw (pin?) that locks the pin in place out, so had to remove steering knuckle....couldn't get knuckle off without cutting king pin. HAD to get knuckle off because the bearing in it was shot. So things just cascaded to where this pin had to go. Interestingly, the other side of machine will need attention so I'm using this as my learning process. The other side though, the bearing is intact (it was destroyed on this side). I'll get this one done, assess the process of what made it work and later on, repeat same (successful) process on other side and redo it.
I've been down this road before. I had to put a 20 ton press under the kingpin and lift the machine with it ever so slightly. Then with heat, 20lb hammer and a whole lot of determination. I got that pin out a 16th of an inch at a time. Track press seems the way to go.
isnt it funny how little jobs escalate like that sounds like Cat would get you going Could also try the industrial welding supply shop they may know who has bought one
1) So, were you ever able to fully remove the draw key that locks the pin in the axle? 2) Was there a thrust bearing in between axle and lower spindle? If so, was it in fair order? 3) Is there damage to the top or bottom of the axle eye, less than smooth? Are those surfaces parallel?
It wouldn't be worth the trouble and expense of renting a press. Even the small unit will push 100t and a technician who knows what he's doing should be in and out in well under an hour.
If you get Cat out there, it's probably worth cutting the other one while he has everything set up. It will probably cost no more than 20% of the cost of getting him to come back.
You would have to pull the axle from the machine as all the king pins on steering axles I've worked on were vertical while a track press is set up to work horizontally. Maybe you can get enough room to get the press under the boom if you lift it up high enough. You would have to push the remains down through that axle bore and if the end of the pin is swelled you will ruin the bore.
1: yes the cotter pin is out you can see the hole in the picture 2: there is supposed to be a thrust bearing and it was obliterated that was why I knew I had to do this 3: no damage visible to my eye and as best I can see they are parallel
I've been so focused on getting this out I've not thought anything beyond that. I think that is a fantastic idea especially since I want or need to do it anyway
I was trying to justify removing the axle. Best of luck to you.
If im understanding right you have it stripped down by cutting the pin to just the axle end steering knuckle is off but the axle is still on the machine ? The remains of the pin should be short now. Drill the center out ,you might have to work up from the bottom and down from the top,as long as the holes meet up the remain s can have the center carefully torched out relieving the swelling . As John said above ,id be sure the pin is swelled from your efforts to pound it out ,it dosent take much to swell a pin a few thou bigger. If the axle is off the machine have a machine shop drill it out first, the bigger the hole the less torch work.
Taking the axle off (as best I know) means, I need to remove the front weights which are under the nose of the machine. I keep thinking there has to be a better (easier) way (I don't have a truck to take it to them so would have to find/borrow one) Still....as I reflect.... more work up front might make the entire process easier. Besides, as I now think about it.....there is probably a bushing/bearing/SOMETHING in there (on the pivot of the axle) that might probably need to be replaced which would mean axle comes off anyway..... Now I'm thinking.
King pin to axle is steel on steel. Pin to spindle is bushing, bearing and shim. Having said that, if the pin takes material with it, you'll have an oversized or oblong bore, which will need to be addressed. Simpler and cheaper at the machine shop, where they have the equipment vs them coming to you.
some heavy truck shops have king-pin presses that are used with the axle on the truck-- they are similar to a track-pin press
As big as Knoxville is, finding either an independant mobile truck mechanic or independant mobile heavy equipment mechanic shouldn't be a problem. Like was mentioned earlier, get both sides done at once while they are there. Or if you're a bit more DIY, Tugger2 has a darn good plan about drilling it out. For $100, you could buy several, quality drill bits, and in an hour, have a pretty sizeable hole all the way through. Cut your ends off flush to the axle, heat it up and then try your 30 ton jack to press, or sledge and a drift to beat it out.
I'm with Tugger, You don't need to press this out, or oxygen lance it out. Even if you don't have a torch, you can get this out easiest by drilling it through the center, then torch just enough to heat the pin, or weld the hole right back up, that will shrink the pin just as well as torching it if you have a decent size hole and a hot enough welder.
King pins are usually about as hard as any drill bit I've ever been able to afford. How long is the remaining king pin?
The guy helping me (has a fabrication shop) brought his magnetic drill over and we tried to drill..... now, it's possible the bit was dull however, we did same thing on part of the steel near rear stabilizxer and his equipment simply ate a hole through the steel. I don't know if this was the same bit or not but the pin simply laughed at us and it barely made a scratch on the pin. Perhaps the bit was dull.... My guess is the pin is hardened (but I don't know that). Maybe the torching we've done has hardened it (I don't know that either) All I know is, we've tried torching it. Now, to this I'll say, the tip of his rosebud is "about" the size of a quarter. Years ago when I was first attempting this (with my home owner plumbers can of propane for heat (HA How's that for being open & honest!) Anyway, a different friend that was over said "You need to take a Rosebud torch and turn that cherry red to loosen it" My imagination was a torch end that was maybe four INCHES across verses the one we're using that is about one inch across. I know nothing about Rosebud torches to infer if my thoughts were right and maybe we're simply using too small of a torch. We still use this for heat but then tried the drill.... and are now trying to bring in the press however, we bent part of his frame so he's reinforcing it to try again. Here's picture of what we did BUT, keep in mind, once it slightly bent, we knew it was weak BUT, figured we didn't have much to lose by keep trying so we almost tore it in half. This was considered the trial FITTING (and it JUST barely fit by about .03030398450338 of an inch!!) Anyway, we continued on to see if the rod or nuts would pop.... everything held together which was good, but we bent the snot out of the TOP support. The bottom support took everything we gave it so now we (he) knows where to strengthen.
Oh, and after we bent it, we wrapped the chain around to help support it. I'm not sure the chain did anything but get in the way. In case someone thinks the chain is too small, it's a grade 100.
Yes king pins are tough ,yours might be 4340. I wont get into the black art of bit sharpening now but with new bits turning slow with good pressure and lube it will cut . If the bit is turning fast and you back off a bit on feed it rubs and makes a hard spot as well as gets dull. A good machinist will solve these problems.
There is a hole in that top piece of channel iron, isn't it? Is the top of the jack smaller than the kingpin? I would put all the pressure I could on it with the jack, heat the beam with the rosebud, (a rosebud 1" in diameter is right) and then use a BFH. Impact and pressure together is powerful.
Exactly except for the BFH. The jack head is actually LARGER than the pin however, the pin protrudes about 1/2" below so it's full contact. He's brought 5-6 "studs" that we can then use if/as the pin moves up the hole to reach up and keep pushing. He came out before to measure for the hole, so yes, there IS an exit hole on the top of the channel iron. What he's going to do now, is cross brace this (after straightening it out) and then I think, weld or somehow attach it to the BOTTOM piece making a bit of a "frame" that will cradle the jack, hopefully, without bending again.
One other suggestion, go around that bit hanging out the bottom with a grinder, so it will be smaller than the hole
Yeah, that's been on my mind too. There is a bit of (what to call it....) "flashing" where when I cut it, it has some snags that are outside the diameter of the pin itself. I was (am) going to grind those off. Hadn't thought much about tapering the pin itself. Probably good idea.
A solid carbide drill bit is probably the only thing that will drill it. The fact it is a kingpin, it may be (prolly) hardened all the way through. Don't go crazy heating the beam. You may weaken it to the point of failure when you do get the new pin in.
We used an annular bit which I think is carbide. None the less it got laughed at by the PIN
Heat the pin where you want to drill red hot and drill when it cools off on it's own. Don't cool it with water or speed up the cooling. That was suggested for drilling a cutting edge and allowed it to be drilled. Can the pin be cut off so it is shorter? If so cut it off and then you should be able to blow through it with a big torch tip. To cut the diameter heat a red band all around the pin first and then slowly cut across the diameter. Saw a guy do this on a large shaft and the cut was as good as a saw cut.
Annular cutters can be HSS or carbide. Carbide would be required for a hardened pin. Their effectiveness is totally dependent on how sharp they are. They require coolant designed for them to be running all the time the bit is in contact with the material. From your description it sounds like the bit was dull before it was ever set up.
Don't take this the wrong way but that top red bracket is only about a 1/4 inch thick by the look of it and is very week the way it is set up . if that's the only steel you have you would be better off cutting the thicker part of the beam off and putting a hole through it and use that to press against
90 lb. jackhammer !
He's making a new top bracket He came over for a trial fit and dry run
I dont know if you made any progress, and I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but, on those hard pins,I start with a small split point bit-3/16-1/4maybe and work my way up always going low and slow(I actually use a smaller drill to avoid fatigue and over powering the bit. A small drill to start seems to keep me honest on the straightness factor too, because you can really feel when you start to deviate. I know it is sometimes needed, but I try real hard not to heat the hell out of the surrounding parts...it doesnt take a whole lot to weaken steel esp cast. Also, I thought you said this was a JCB, so I dont understand the Caterpillar service guy angle ,but what do I know?. My machinist friend and an non friend machinist both told me JCB liked to use inductive hardened pins on machines of my era(87 1400B). 1145 induction hardened iirc, they give you the wear of a tool steel without the brittleness. Once you get a hole started you'll probably chew thru pretty well. Then torch her out.
Thanks for your thoughts (way) above... as to your wonderment.... my JCB dealer is about 100 miles away.... local CAT dealer is maybe 30 miles away. without me knowing any better, "A King pin is a King pin, is a King pin" regardless of who's working on it.... so I'm not going to pay for the JCB guys to drive 100 miles here if I have a closer option. As simple as that. All that said.... nothing is happening yet. Just sitting in front yard like a big yard ornament (which my wife loves..... NOT!) Heh Got the nose weights off to reveal the pivot pin that holds the axle on. Never having done this before, I'm looking at several optionis. 1. Wait for my machinest guy to come back with the cradle and try to use my 30 ton bottle jack to press it out in place. That's the easiest result. 2. Possibly remove front axle and "simply" take entire axle to a shop to let them press, drill, whatever it out and take things apart....I'll put back together here. Small issue there, I called JCB other day for part, as it happened, the Service Manager answered....so asked him if he knew size of threaded bolt that screws INTO the pivot pin. He said he didn't off hand but they use a hydraulic tool to pull on the bolt to pull the pin out and "often times, it's totally stuck and we have to burn it out" So, removing the front axle MIGHT present the same issue I'm having with the King Pin. 3. Burn it out. As it happens again, literally about 20 minutes ago I sent an email to a fabrication/welding shop that ironically is about 6-8 miles just down the same road as me. Being Saturday, no response yet. I was asking if they do the burn thing on site. As much as the wife hates this thing sitting in front of the house, fortunately, she understands that it's a bit out of the league of my tools and I'm at the mercy of others who can help, being accessable. In the end, I'm still 100% confident this will get done, I just don't know the path that will get me there (yet)
You won't get flamed here. We have heated discussions. Some of us are firmly rooted in our point of view. You have to be a total Jack wagon to get anyone to go after you. I think you brought some real value to the discussion. Some of us get tunnel vision with bigger, hotter, harder and heavier that we forget the tried and true methods.
It looks like you are taking the time required to determine your best option. That's good. GEOD998's method of starting with a small drill bit is what I have done many,many times on bolts and pins to open a channel for a cutting torch to do its thing. In my previous post a failed to mention to use a small diameter solid carbide bit. They are a little more affordable than bigger ones.
I prefer the KISS theory when working on problems like this , i personally would trim whats left of your pin almost flush so its as short as possible and try not to burn myself to bad with a cutting torch slowly blowing a hole thru it , at work we have a redneck oxygen lance set up we use steel brake line from auto parts store , it works but have to be real careful of your safety and even more so with the machine.
I have presumed that if we do the lance thing, I would try to find several "Welders Blankets" (to give an idea of what I'm thinking of) I don't even know if something like that exists... but something to drape across as much of the machine and engine as I can so the slag only has downward to go. Which brings me to a question..... do they make "fireproof" blankets like that and if so, I presume I'd go to a welding supply to buy one/some?? (I'd probably get several to protect as much as I can)
Rockwool/mineral wool insulation would work for something like that. I worked at a machine shop years ago and we would go buy unfaced, mineral wool insulation to protect areas that could be damaged from slag or welding sparks. It is non-flammable as long as it is unfaced. As with anything you read online, do a bit of research and do a test piece away from your sensitive equipment before committing to it. And keep a good fire extinguisher, hose, etc, handy.
I did a search for welders blanket and found some. Never would I have thought about the Rockwool.... *IF* it got to the point of lancing it, it would essentially be a one time thing (though I think I'd do BOTH king pins just to tighten up the other one which was not in as bad of shape as this one (this one had the bearing collapse & disentegrate whereas the bearing is intact on the other wheel)) So this would essentially be a use once & throw away unless there is another reason to keep this?? I suppose if I did the blanket things, I could keep those...
Shoot, I just looked up welders blanket. They're plenty cheap enough to justify buying one compared to the rockwool. Rockwool is $47 for one bag which would cover the front of your machine. An XL (10'X10') welders blanket is $77 shipped to your door from Amazon, and smaller blankets are cheaper. I don't think the rockwool is worth messing with given the price of a welders blanket, and you could probably sell the welders blanket after you're done with it.
Welp, thank you very much for doing that legwork!!! I was going to look into this during upcoming week (been working lately trying to frame in & run wires in new mud-room) Much appreciated.
I have lanced out a lot of pins over the years. One thing to keep in mind is if this pin is on the smallish side which I think it is. An oxygen lance will not distinguish between the pin and the axle. It does not care what is in it's way, it will just eat at it. So what I am saying is it will be very important to keep the lance straight as to not hurt the axle.
Yes, thank you. I think the pin is roughly 1 1/2" diameter (it's metric of course) Knowing nothing about this stuff, if that becomes a viable option, I was thinking the smallest rod they have.
Please don't be offended Coytee, but your kingpin is not the time or place for a first time use with a lance. At least a homemade press or drilling won't destroy the axle unless a disaster is created.
My apologies if I suggested that I would be doing anything like that. If it's burned out, it would be done by someone with experience, not me. I'm just game to buy extra protection blankets and not find out when they arrive that they brought a single blanket for coverage which would not be enough to prevent stuff from flying onto engine or rest of machine. I was also just trying to put myself into their heads.... or, let me reword it.... if my pin is 1 1/2" diameter (approx) and someone comes out with a 1" rod to burn through, I'm going to not let them blindly do that on my equipment.... without first asking about smaller diameter rods (my guess would be that they start about 1/4" but, I don't know that) Just because THEY might want to use a 1" (for example) to make it simple for them, doesn't mean that I would agree to that. Let's start small, be the least aggressive.... we can always step up. So no.... I have zero intent of doing anything like this myself. I'm trying to immerse myself a bit into the process to learn a bit about it from reading, watching and asking so I can (hopefully) be better informed if it does come down to using this process.
Another option could be Artu brand drill bits. Might be worth a try for you. They will drill threw a bearing race. I have a set of them and they are impressive.
Carbide becomes your friend on hard steels
Houston, I think we have found "Plan B"!!! I was recommended to a local guy (about 10 miles straight down my road) who's a certified welder and has a service truck. Does the burnout stuff. Said "yeah just bring it to me" To which I had to explain it's dead in the water in my front lawn.... So, gameplan is wait for my guy to finish the support for the bottle jack and see if that works (I don't have high hopes but for all the effort he's done, I feel I owe him first crack at success) If we get it out, great. If not, I'll call this guy who said he can usually get something like this into his time frame within several days. Don't know what's going to happen, but can just feel in my bones that this pin is history. I am thinking I'll have him do the other one too so my entire front end is 'new'.
Sounds like a good plan. I'd never bother with the other side though, if the bearing is still there, grease it once a year and it will outlive both of us.
No ending to the story...what a cliff hanger
Gack, you're right. I actually posted the results somewhere else, having totally forgotten about this thread! Pin is out/fixed. Was a BEAR of a job to do. Had to fabricate a cradle to hold a 30 ton jack. Took a lot of persistence. When the pin finally broke loose (meaning it went from frozen to moving about 1/2 of an inch) there was so much pressure the entire machine shook. It was bending the steel on the cradle. I had an idea, rather than to hit the PIN, I hit the axle and with that pent up pressure in there, everything cut loose and it broke free. We then had to "inch" it out bit by bit with little extensions to keep moving. Honed the hole and the new one went right in. It WAS a major fight though, especially for (at best) a 'quasi-backyard mechanic' and his friend. Pictures below.
I might add (in case I never mentioned it) I originally tried to put the jack under the pin....with the 'full weight' (ha) of the machine holding it down. That was a major fail because: 1. I didn't have the FULL weight of the machine holding the pin to the jack 2. Even if I DID have the "full" weight of the machine, we're looking at a 30 ton jack and a seven'ish ton (I think) machine 3. Jack simply lifted front of machine up to the extent it could reach. So we had to figure out a way to immobileize the jack, relative to the machine. 4. I don't know how creative the solution is but it's the idea I came up with. My neighbor (with full machine shop) fabricated it for me and was there for the victory dance when it broke loose.