I've been looking to purchase a new CTL and looking in the 100hp range and gross weight in the 11-12k range. Machine will primarily be used for excavation with the occasional tree saw(rarely) work to be done. The new Cabs on the deere P series, Bobcat T86, are really intriguing with positive pressure cabs greatly reducing noise level inside the cab. Prices are all coming back in the mid 90's price range(waiting on cat price). One of the key factors is I will be unloading small squares of hay from a semi with a grapple and need all the height reach I can get for the top layer. Any suggestions on machine preference would be great! Dealers are all 35min-1hr away. Thanks for adding me to the HEF group!
Welcome to the Forums! Glad to have you. Personally I would stay away from any model CTL that requires DEF. We run Cat 279D's and not 299's because the 279's do not require DEF. HEF has several threads on DEF issues with 299's. I would like to replace one of our 279's this year with the new model replacement 265. Got to demo one at the dealer and run another contractors on the job. A 265 will load a tri-axle and reach the center of the truck FWIW. An no DEF.
Welcome to the HEF. Let us know how it goes as you move forward with the purchase.
In my experience stay away from new holland also. They run good when they do but have a lot of terrible design flaws. The direction of cab opening only allows access if you can raise boom, they were using one time use fittings on a steel line that goes under the engine(dont know if they still are) they have had issues with wiring and remote oil filters coming loose dedtroying the engine. Just not a great design from what ive seen.
Can you build a dirt ramp to gain some height? Don't let that height requirement dictate your purchase. And what dealer is close, or who do you deal with now? Joe H
Welcome to the Forums! Glad to have you. I'm not too fond of New Holland construction equipment either.
I am not sure who your dealers are out there but in my area Cat is hands down the best of any manufacturer regarding parts availability. I know years ago everyone used to complain about Cats high prices but most all of the others have either caught up or exceeded parts costs from what I see daily. I also see a lot of discontinued parts after only a couple years from most other manufacturers. This is just an overall observation across the product lines I see regularly. I can not say for certain that skid steers are treated the same as a D6 or a 980 when it comes to parts though
Not just DEF issues on Cat 299's. There are several threads about problems with them. A few about Kubota's with problems too.
I currently run New holland tractors as they are the closest dealer but haven't been impressed with the dealership. Deere and Cat dealers are both 30-35min away, Kubota is 1hr, and Bobcat is a little over an hour away. Bobcat has promised they have an exceptional mobile service availability and are regularly in the area. Deere seems to be the best price at the moment, and they have exceptional financing with a almost true 0% rate.
Same here on the price of Cat parts. I don't own a D6 or a 980 and we're treated very well. There's a lot more CTL's running around than 980's. Back when we were running Bobcat's we could order parts from Atlanta cheaper including shipping than from our local dealer. One of the many reasons I divorced Bobcat years ago and never looked back.
I agree about the no def. I am not sure if that rules out Deere. I know that even the 331 is equipped with def. I would stay away from Kubota and (I know you didn't mention it) Takeuchi. They are the equipment version of Hyundai and Kia in my opinion. There was once a time when Case and (same thing) New Holland were okay options. Mainly because they were less expensive to buy and the parts were super cheap. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Last year I had to reseal boom lift and bucket tilt cylinders on (I don't know, really, maybe) a 320. The seal kits were around $300 each (thems cat prices!). Last time I did the exact same job the seal kits were around $60 per. I don't have a lot of hate for Bobcat. I mean weren't they the OG skid steer maker? I do hate when people call me and say they are having an issue with a bobcat when the mean "skid steer". I hate rolling up on a jobsite and have to call someone and say, " there isn't a single piece of Bobcat equipment here!". However, there isn't a Bobcat dealer on my island. And to be frank, the only one in Hawaii generally sucks. I buy Bobcat parts from Alaska. Juneau bobcat is really good, love those guys. Honestly (and again, I know you didn't mention it). I have never seen a Komatsu CTL. But that doesn't mean they don't make them. I have only seen two Komatsu backhoes. Maybe they just don't have a market presence for those machines here. I suppose I would have to recommend Caterpillar. I am betting that the purchase price is a bit higher than "mid 90's". But, you are getting a superior machine with (what I think is) about the best parts sourcing network in the industry. AND... If you need any tech info or...just about anything. You have Nige here at HEF! Guy is just awesome.
Some brands are best to avoid but on the other hand every manufacturer can have certain machines that are a problem child and best to avoid. Cat 299's seem to have more issues than other Cat or competing machines.
With skid steers (tracked or wheeled) it seems no manufacturer does it all right. Where one brand excels another brand falls short. In my own opinion I think Cat does slightly more right than the rest. Their parts availability seems to be a lot better than most manufacturers even after a few years.
We are kinda in the same boat, looking for 1 for our properties, kinda narrowed it down to maybe a CAT, but more likely a Deere 333P and or Kubota we're waiting till we can get a good look at a SVL97-3,, but darn there are some deals on a 97-2, got a bunch of Kubota dealers both Ag and 1 construction close, Deere has several stores all owned by 1 company + a Deere construction dealer that may be owned by same company dont know. But like someone posted there is a lot of Cats on here.. Guess my 1st question is, would you buy from a Ag or Construction??
If I go with anything other than Bobcat, it would be from an "ag dealer". Not much for construction dealerships in my area. What are you seeing for pricing on the kubota 97-2? I have searched around to find out more on the 97-3 with limited information besides promises from the dealer that they will be much nicer.
WO getting real serious with sales 6-7K off
Agree completely, unless you absolutely need the capacity of the larger machine, staying away from DEF will eliminate a large majority of the emissions system troubles that people have. The majority of the other troubles can be eliminated by keeping clean fuel in it, which should be a given. That opinion may have had some merit 40 years ago, but today the Japanese build some of the highest quality compact equipment out there. As for my choices in CTL's, Kubota and Takeuchi are at the top of the list, followed by Case and Deere. Just an FYI on Kubota pricing, 13% off MSRP seems to be about the bottom dollar and that usually takes some hard negotiating. Having bought two tractors, a CTL and a mini ex from Kubota over the past 15yrs that figure seems to hold true.
Do the newer Case machines really deserve the bad wrap they seem to get on this site? I'm on my 3rd Case in 9 years. Keep trading up bigger. Used TR340 in 2016, had and injector go bad under warranty. New TV450 in 2018 owned for 5 years no issues. And now have a new 2025 TV620B. I've been very happy with all of them.
Any specific reason you are looking at the 100HP range instead of <75HP range? The <75 hp range doesn't require DEF and the weight difference is not all that much. I have a CAT 289D3 XPS and it does everything I have asked it to and still has plenty of reserve power and lifting capacity in it.
I've ran a 75hp New Holland and constantly felt under powered when trying to move larger quantities of dirt. I won't put 300hrs a year on the machine. I ran a John Deere 331p this morning and really liked the machine. The JD bucket seems to really set out in front of you, much further than say a Bobcat T86. For you guys that run a machine, is there a benefit to one over the other?
Check the pricing from both. Just a simple tube of special JD corn head grease was $1 more at the construction dealer. If price is similar talk to the service departments to see who has more experience working on them and who typically has shorter wait times if you need service or repairs. Also who has better field service. One might sell a lot more and have more parts stock.
You can get shallow buckets or deep buckets either factory or after market. That shouldn't be the deciding factor when spending +$90k on a new machine. I went with Cat as it had plenty of power for digging in wet clay, limestone rock with the tooth bucket, running my high flow brush cutter and shoving over 75' trees in my woods, rootball and all with the Extreme duty brush grapple. I have rented many brands throughout the years from Cat, New Holland, Kubota, Case, John Deere and Tak. That is why I decided on a Cat289D3 when I finally bought a low hour used one. I had rented a 289D3 with a forestry head on it early last fall. Loved the power, fuel efficiency, stabilization, smooth ride and quietness of the cab and the well thought out control locations. I rented a Cat 299D3 later last Fall. That girl was really thirsty and had the blasted DEF system on it. It had plenty of power, but I really didn't need that much power to efficiently do everything I needed to do with it and can't justify screwing with the dreaded DEF system on the 299D3 for the few extra pounds of weight and a few horsepower it would supply. Don't forget about the type of tracks you run on it. Make sure they will handle well and wear well for the type of environments it will be primarily operating in. The Kubotas rode fairly rough, but had plenty of power. The New Hollands were prone to breakdown in the middle of the week rental on more than one occasion. The Cases were OK, nothing to write home about. The John Deere's were fine, I am just tiring of my local dealer for my Deere Ag equipment. The Taks had plenty of power, but they rode fairly rough and lacked old man creature comforts I was looking for. The way the loading arms were designed, it really limited the view of what the attachment you had connected to the machine was doing. I suggest renting a few different brand and model machines and see which one you like and meets all of the check boxes you require in a machine. Work each one for a week. 40 hours on a machine should let you compile a list of what you like, don't like, what you can live with and what is a deal breaker. Then see if you can locate a low hour used machine somewhere that may save you tens of thousands of dollars over what a new machine would cost you. They depreciate quickly. Unless you can write off a new machines depreciation on your business taxes, a low good low hour machine that is a year or three old may fit your needs just fine.
Renting a few different machines for a week when you plan to buy a machine puts a big dent in your budget. I'd try to demo 2 or 3 machines or rent for a day. A weekly rental of a larger CTL will be in the thousands and then multiply that by 3 and now you took maybe $4500 out of your buying budget. It could be the difference between getting what you really want or comprising on something lessor.
Well, my renting experiences have been over a period of several years. A buyer's remorse over a +$90k machine is a pill a lot bigger to swallow, IMHO. While renting, you are still getting your jobs completed and that is substantially cheaper than hiring it out to be done. One project I did on my farm a couple of years ago was completed for the cost of 2 weeks of CTL rentals. I got several quotes to hire it out turnkey and I could have purchased a brand new CAT CTL for what the lowest bidder wanted to do it for.
Not being an arse but I am being a skeptic. So 2 weeks of a CTL rental completed a job that the lowest bidder priced out at $80-100K? Need more details on this project.
Bobcat has a very strong large track machine. They are known for electrical issues. I have a friend that runs a 770 lost a computer that controls the joysticks. 1500 for.much of nothing. I lost my instrument cluster on my case, they asked me if it got hit by lightning with 300 hrs on it. It was stored in side a building 1500 for nothing. I like the takeuchi tl12v2s they are so fast and productive. I would also like a new big case machine. My sv340 has earned its keep. If you can afford the big machine don't let these guys scare you off it. Def and all they are true work horses After having the power and lifting capacity I could never use a small machine and be happy. I special ordered my case with mechanical controls, I have had zero issues with that and like feeling the machine
There have been enough DEF issues that it is a big concern especially for smaller operators who don't have other machines to fill in if their main machine goes down.
I agree. I've heard of some ridiculous claims but a 2 week rental saving the cost of an $80K+ new machine pretty much takes the cake. Often hiring an experienced operator will get a job done faster than an occasional renter could do it. Hiring might bring a larger machine as well to speed the job up. If looking at an $80K plus machine I'd certainly want to demo the candidates for a day or 2. My dad sold commercial turf equipment and it wasn't uncommon for his customers like golf courses to get demo's up to a week sometimes 2 weeks if a good customer. If customers abused the demo's as one golf course did, with all suppliers, they could still get a demo but it was 2 days max. and the machine was picked up. If they never ended up buying anything no more demo's. For big tournaments machines like a greensmowers could often be loaned or rented for cheap. My dad got up at 4 in the morning one time to deliver a loaner greensmower for big tournament. They started cutting at 6am to be ready for an 8am start. Half way through the greens got a 2nd cut to keep them consistent. Two greens mowers weren't fast enough.
He sounds like he has plenty of seat time and has already been exposed to some equipment. I have a owned a def machine now for 6ish years and it has been serviced twice due to def. Both times were in the first 200 hours. Case got a few bad sensors and got new upgraded sensors. It is part of doing business. In some aspects DEF is better. Certain times of the day when the weather, atmosphere and elevation is right diesel exhaust fumes sit around you and can be noticeable typically early morning. Working inside buildings the fumes can be bad. Def makes it cleaner and much less noticeable. I would rather have it than not. If he works it out with a dealer he can get them to comment to bringing a rental machine if it goes down during the warranty period. I have seen it done and they can add it to the contract. There is enough dust and fumes to take any help you can get. The machines are pretty much not serviceable with out the computer anyway. The 75 hp machines also. Granted I would prefer a more serviceable machine without def. The main thing that must be done is they need to always run at wide open throttle and not be left idling for any length of time.
We have a 97-2 bota and love it. Yes their AC system isn’t the best it’s easily clogged up but this is our second one and it’s been trouble free. Just over a 1100 hrs now. KTec insurance is second to none as well. I wouldn’t even consider another brand for the money and reliability we’ve had.
Think the OP said they might only use it for 300 hours a year. Not knowledgeable enough on DEF but think that might be a problem. This should dictate that renting different stuff for a week and all this other stuff that’s been brought up, not really relevant as enough hours wouldn’t be put on to really form a knowledge opinion. Sounds like the OP needs a simple to operate and reliable machine, that can sit for long periods of time and be okay. The height thing is possibly relevant, just need to check specs. i love the newer TAKS and the newer Kubota’s are nice. I have no brand loyalty but Cat’s service is hard to beat. Not sure of finances but this may be a perfect opportunity to lease.
Isn't DEF good for about 12 months? I wouldn't think the ops lower hours would have an effect on a DEF system. It had none on my low hour TV450.
I prefer the DEF machines, not because I like the added complexity. I just haven't had a DEF issue and I have had 6 of them. I like the power. 75 hp just isn't enough for what we do with them. I am probably just lucky for not having issues but if you work them harder, I think they work quite well. I have had good luck with the Case machines.
Every generation of DEF has gotten better. Case in point 70's / 80's smog control on gas engines, now we get better mileage, more horsepower, better reliability, try getting 250K miles on a 70's smog engine, I know some have done it, but the average is way less! back then a lot of people would trade at 70-80K, Granddaughter got 253K on a set OEM Versa spark plugs, only reason we put plugs in, 1 of the coils was bad! IMO, I have no problem with a new CTL with DEF!
What machine are you running? Recently traded the TV450 for the TV620B. Power is amazng. Been doing a lot of tree removal and it just rips through roots like butter. Dropping 20-24" locust trees right now in a minute or two.
Does the 620b have enough horsepower, can you stall it out and kill it? How does it do fully loaded with dirt turning in soft ground? For the weight, it seems underpowered. What are your thoughts?
Does fine fully loaded turning but the weight leaves some pretty heavy disturbance if you pivot 180. Wouldn't want to do it on grass if you wanted any left. I've worked it hard and have stalled it once. The only time I feel it's underpowered is working steep grades with a full load. My TV450 was faster on steep grades. With that said the TV650 is moving a lot more material. The other thing I've noticed is it great for grading flat pads. Not only the amount of material I can move but the weight and longer track length makes a huge difference. Bucket edge never pulls down and just keeps on pushing. With that said this machine is not for everyone but perfect for what I'm doing. I would not want it if I were moving it a lot job to job or had to worry about tight access or property disturbance. I scaled it out fully fueled with the bucket at 16,800 lbs. Add my brush cutter and grapple or tree puller and I'm at 20k. A couple of videos pushing dirt with it Cleaning out some dirt piles from a recent building we put up. Pushing hard pack clay into a new pond bottom
Should also mention it gets pretty thirsty when working it hard such as my high flow brush cutter, not only fuel but uses a decent amount of Def compared to my 450. That was not a surprise given HP and weight. My only negative I can say so far is it is fairly loud in the cab. I think a lot of that is from the fan on the unit. The rear fan moves and impressive amount of air
Currently replacing every chassis harness on a Case right now and I'm fairly certain the wiring issues are due to poor routing and a lack of proper support/securement.
What year? I'm not doubting was just curious as I've never had an issue.
Early-mid 2010's. Parts breakdown indicates only 6 zip ties on one of the main harnesses believe it or not.
I was more curious about the newer machines they are putting out. Last 5 years or so. I know the older units had issues. I'll admit I'm not putting a lot of hours on mine.
The older machines had harness issues. They changed up the harnesses in 2016. I have a SV340B, TV450B and a DL550 Minitour (a sister machine to the 620B). The DL550 spends most of its time as a Dozer or with the Sharpgrade grader on it. Having 1.25 cy bucket it moves as much material on the front end as a 590SN. Pretty impressive for a CTL.
That's a good looking machine i would love to try that out. I never see any rental cases on my jobs so it's not likely I will get a chance to use it. Thanks for the feedback.
Me neither. It's either Cat, Tak, Deere or Bobcat. Come to think of it we don't see Case or Kubota CTL's very often either owned or rented.
I thought my 620B was heavy. Whats your minitour scale out with the dozer blade on?
Honestly I haven't scaled it. They say 18600. That girl is beast in the dirt though.
Agreed. The push these have is unbelievable. I almost ordered a tooth bucket on purchase and quickly found it wasn't needed. This last pond project I was cutting hardpack clay and had to be careful not to pile dirt onto the windshield.
Guys I greatly appreciate all of the feedback that has been provided. As this machine will be more of a luxury item and not an absolute must have, I'm going pass on the cat and go for a John Deere 331P. I couldn't justify the extra 20k price tag for the cat 275 versus the JD 331p. Delivery is expected to be in late July!
Very nice machine. I think you're going to be happy long-term with the extra HP and weight
ok
Well, ok. I am going to assume that you don't live in an area that has a massive boom on construction. There are not enough dirt contractors and excavator companies around here. The construction industry has exploded around here the past few years. We are in the middle of a California relocation explosion. It was tough enough to get the 3 bids I got. Most of the contractors never even showed up to bid, once they found out what my project was. All 3 of them bid stupid high, because they didn't want my project on my farm. Not profitable enough. They want contracts with all of the industrial parks and massive subdivisions that are swallowing up our country side, where they don't have to relocate equipment every 2 or 3 weeks. I can't change your mind or show you any of the proposals I got, because I threw them away several years ago. I did the job myself much, much cheaper by renting a CTL and not doing half the amount of work they were going to needlessly charge me for. I had plenty enough clay on my farm I got out of a borrow pit, instead of excavating all the dirt out of the area and trucking in dozens of loads of chert to fill it back in, like they wanted to charge me for. Sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do.
What ever, dude.
Well you know what happens when you assume... LOL - yes I live in an area with a lot of construction going on. We are in the commercial site prep business and turn down projects daily because we are booked up. Yeah me too. That's why I don't do residential. Maybe you were getting bids from the wrong contractors? Sounds like you needed a more defined scope of work for what you wanted to do. Another reason I stick to commercial work as there is a set of contract drawings and defined scope of work.
Late July! 4 or 5 weeks ago, I went by 1 of the AgPro stores, had 4 or 5, 333P's out front!. Is 10-12 weeks normal time frame?
My Cat dealer has 265's and 275's on the lot, drove through today.
Had a similar situation 20 years ago trying to get a road put in for a new property purchase. 2 bids came in at 60k and 70k. A lot of that bid was trucking dirt in to build up grade. Put things on hold and ended up using a third contractor that used the dirt on site and slightly different route in making the most of existing grade for 10k. Didnt have to truck any dirt.
Nobodies a fan of grossly exaggerated claims. For an $80K+ price tag a demo shouldn't be a problem.
Give it a rest, dude. You don't know anything about me or my present or past projects. You are the one that came up with the +$80k price tag, not me. Have a nice evening.
Why the attitude?? You stated the $80 to $100K from the lowest bidder for what took you two weeks to do with a rental. Nobody believes that.
I was quoted 60 to 80 k to put in a 800’ plus driveway over an existing farm road to my new house. That included 3 runs of 2” conduit and 1 run of 3” to a transformer pad. That was with me paying for the pad and the conduit. I got 3 bids and yes I was turned down by a bunch of other contractors for most everything for the house. I ended up buying an older backhoe and me GCing the whole project. Granted, took 3 months off from my business. The driveway cost me 12k in gravel and used the existing farm sand pit for a base. We are in a crazy situation here, most of the home builders are into developments and no one wanted to do just a single basic ranch house. Around here, every one wants to make bank off every job. While I’m sure I didn’t find all the contractors around here, there is no yellow pages anymore. If it’s not word of mouth, it’s hard to find builders that aren’t 2 years behind. I won’t question anybody for quotes that seem out of line after the experience I had building my house. The damn well driller that I have known for 40 years quoted me 16k for a new well. The builder I hired recommended a well drilling company I had never heard of. He’s 2 towns over and he drilled 440 and total work was 6,800. Its all who you know, I guess.
Give it a rest Dave and move on.
Not going to lie - I do. I want to make as much as I can on every job I do. Old enough I don't need the experience and young enough that I've gotta put back more for retirement. It's the reason we are in the commercial side of the business. It's all just business with no one's personal feelings involved.
Cushing and sons?
We all want to make money, that doesn’t give a license to charge unfairly. For the longest time, we only had a couple of reasonable surveyors and civil engineers around and with the boom, they were booked solid. Unfortunately that gave some other less known companies the ability to start charging outrageous fees. That lasted for a couple of years and now they all are charging outrageous fees. Sorry but designing an as built septic design that is just out of date and charging 20k is outrageous and it’s going on all over on regular homes. The guys doing developments are just doing the same design all over and getting 4k. It has to end sometime. Nailed that one! The older brother.
It's a free market, if someone accepts a price they are not being held at gunpoint. Prices for goods and services always fluctuate. That sounds more like a governmental issue? On a broader topic I think it's supply and demand. Not that the demand has skyrocketed, rather the supply of people and firms to do the work is in short supply.
I mentioned it in the past but my former neighbor needed a partner to put a bond on a large gov't. demo project. They had the low bid by a decent margin but before awarding the contract the gov't. asked if they would like to modify their bid since it was much lower than the other bids. They said no, we can do it for the price submitted. They were trying to salvage as much as possible which I think was part of the original plan even though I heard that nothing was to be salvaged. Long story short it turned into a big **** show and the neighbor was kicked off the job. There was a big lawsuit that I think lasted at least 5 days. Several years ago the lawsuit was posted on the provincial courts web page. That was the job where I got yelled at by the neighbors wife, who was selling salvaged items from the parking area, for riding in an excavator bucket. I was cutting open cable trays so wire could be pulled out and also cutting pipe for salvage. The alternative was climbing over a huge pile of broken concrete and rebar. If I had to do it over I'd still get a ride in the bucket. One slip and I'd be impaled by a chunk of rebar, no thanks!
Lets all get back to the original topic, and cut this pissin contest out!
Easy now. Since you are new here to HEF I'll explain the informal rule of thread hijacking. This is a discussion forum and sometimes the topic strays onto other topics that may be related or very loosely related and sometimes not related at all. It's part of the discussion. The proper way to ease the thread back is to say something like - Back on topic or something like that. Now back on topic - Bobcat sucks and I wouldn't buy one. Just my $.02.
What ever you do, if you decide on Bobcat stay away from the R-Series. (Like T66, T62, T76, T86...) Personally I would go either for the T595 or T650. Both New Models have the newer Engine in with the Bosch Injection System (waaaay more reliable then the old Delfhi System). If you want a DEF Machine, then I would go for the T770. I would also consider, who invented the Skid Steer---Bobcat.
Technically it was Melroe.
I beg to differ on that one. Demand has sky rocketed in our area the past three years, due to the population invasion from the west coast and large scale business relocation. I agree that the people and firms are in short supply. It's that way everywhere. You can't find any help. Not sure exactly what the younger generation is doing to survive the past few years. Professional video game playing and professional text messaging doesn't pay much.......... We hire greenhorns all of the time. We start them out at $20-25 and hour, with zero experience. We give them a 90- day probation period so they can acclimate to a real world working environment. Over 90% of them don't make it past 60 days. They can't survive without playing with their damn phone every 3-5 minutes. They either quit or get **** canned. The future work force is doomed.
Same here on labor. We have found a staffing service that we have had decent luck with. Posted this is a few other threads. I firmly believe we'll have robot laborers sooner, way sooner than I ever imagined. Say a robot costs $150K once they are in full production. Today the labor burden for a green horn, low on the totem pole is $50K for a round number. The robot pays for itself in 3 years and doesn't have a grandmother die 5 times a year, got to jail or have an old lady that's wearing it out on the phone all day. A robot could be programmed to be a pipe layer since it's a repetitive process of line and grade. We are already making grading and pipe models for loading into the machines so a similar model could be loaded into the robot. Put some GPS on them and they become walking data collectors. At the end of the day just hit the "Gather up" button and the robot gathers all the tools up, puts them in the job box them plugs himself into the charger for the next day. That type of tech is coming way faster than I ever imagined. We are experiencing a disruption akin to the industrial revolution where steam replaced horses. Fascinating times.
The trick is finding young people that aren't afraid of of work and realize they can't get the big bucks right away.
Here's my $.02 to the OP's question, @bradhfo , BLUF I would stick with either Kubota or CAT. There are a lot of guys on this forum who work at dealerships and see the same failures week after week, they tend to not recognize things like recency bias. "I've seen 20 DEF failures, therefore all DEF systems fail" of course is not reality. For every 10,000 DEF systems in operation, how many have premature failure? How many of those failures see less than 20 hours of operation per week? Lots of questions like that from the 40k foot view you won't see because nobody here has access to that data. My personal experience is that I own all my equipment outright and perform all my own maintenance. Kubota and CAT both have good design engineers. I have owned Bobcat in the past, and would say the exact opposite, I will never own another Bobcat because of their **** poor design. I've got videos on here of me pulling my 289D motor and replacing it, I also just finished a frame rebuild on that same 289D to make a machine with 5k+ hours run, feel, and sound like a new machine. CAT makes a good product, but I think they are overpriced. CAT parts are also comical in the cost department at times. Yes, it is great they have a functional supply chain, but the cost of access to those parts seem made up at times. "Yes, we found the part number for those motor mount bushings from 2014, they cost $297 each and I will have to transfer them in from our dealership in Guam, they should be here when your kids graduate college". Yea, I'll just drill a hole in a hockey puck and call it good my guy. More than likely I am going to sell that 289D and purchase a new 97-3. Aside from the modernization piece of it, a big creature comfort is the cab entry door closure. Whatever dumbass designed a door that can only open at full top or full bottom of operation needs to get slapped in the face. Any machine with a side swing door needs to be removed from existence. I do not have any other good dealer support in my area, which is why I limit to those 2 brands. I know some guys who have good experience with ASV, but I've never even seen a dealer. I completely left out John Deere because I think they are generally anti-American globalist turds who have sold their souls to the almighty dollar. Pretty much none of these companies want us to be able to maintain/repair this equipment on our own, but JD is the only one actively spending money hand over fist to prevent right-to-repair legislation from advancing. I will never give them another red cent.
I don't know what part of AL you're in, but I'm not too far from you, in southwest MS. My day job is in industrial automation & AI integration, and this stuff is coming fast, at least in a relative sense. In the next 5 years you will see more manufacturing in the states, but lower overall jobs. We have 3 different multinational customers that we are part of their "dark factory" initiatives. The idea is essentially a giant metal box, on one end you get raw material, and the other finished products loaded into trucks to be delivered. The "dark factory" moniker comes from the metal box not having any lights inside of it because it is 100% run by humanoids. One of our largest accounts already has the Tesla and Boston Dynamics robots running label film swaps on packaging equipment at some of their plants. Scary days ahead for traditional labor careers, but an unlimited amount of money to made designing, building, maintaining, and optimizing these automation integrations.
Wow! It's happening faster than I would have ever imagined even 4-5 years ago. Went to the Cat excavator plant in Illinois back in the mid 2000's and it was a factory like you describe. Raw materials (plate steel) on one end and finished 330's rolling out the other. Even at that time they had autonomous robot parts fetchers along with robot parts handlers. The guy assembling a pump for example would request a certain parts order and the robots would fulfill it. As we were touring the facility the robots would cruise by. They told us they wouldn't run over us but stay clear in order to not disrupt the production. I remember they had a robotic welding set up for 330 under bodies. It was fascinating seeing that big of a piece of metal spun around with a robot welding it up. Look how far it has come now. No need for the human to summon the robot.. Located here in central AL where 65, 20 and 59 meet. Headed down to Biloxi next weekend for some much needed R+R.
Problem is also, that a lot of people do not run these machine with DEF how they should be run. I know of a lot of owners who run these machine at 2000 RPM because that is a comfortable speed for them, not knowing that the machine should run at 2600 RPM for peak performance. But then they are upset when the machine throws all kind of codes because it never reaches regen and the soot is not burned off. So that is one of the reasons people don't like DEF machines, because their knowledge is from 1980!
I'm not sure about that. Skid steers and CTL's are known to run best at full throttle and most users know that. Cat put throttle pedals in them because they were very jerky trying to do precision work. Apparently newer models are better. Certain machines are known to have problematic DEF systems and it's not because they are being run at less than full throttle. One just has to read the forums on here to see which models are the most problematic. On a new CTL worth $70K+ I would expect to get a lot more than 5000 hours before needing to replace the engine. Hydrostat components maybe depending on how hard they are worked but 10,000 hours on the engine shouldn't be hard to achieve with proper maintenance. Kubota engines in Lincoln welders state 10,000 hours before needing major service. That's a very common number for most diesel engines. I'm sure a lot of them go a fair bit beyond that. I put new glow plugs and adjusted the valves (which weren't out much) on my Kubota powered skid steer with 4500 hours and the engine runs as good as the day it was new.
The Bosch system has been way more problematic than Delphi. The CP4 units that GM, Ford and Ram used for a time in their diesels are the same system. GM stopped in 2015ish. The units that Bosch uses in these systems is very similar I am told to the CP4.
I wouldn't avoid a machine just because it has a DEF emission system. Nearly all our machines and all but one of our trucks run DEF and they're mostly trouble free. Two of our Kubota 97-2s have had work done on the DEF system under warranty and one of our dump trucks. I'm personally running a one year old Cat 299D3 with 1200 hours that to date has been trouble free other than a blown hose and a loose fitting missed at PDI. Neither of these issues were DEF related. I realize the machine is just broken in and I could have issues tomorrow. I have friends who purchased smaller machines than they needed to avoid DEF then ended up abusing the machine trying to do the work of the larger one. In every case they ended up trading the machine back for the larger DEF equipped machine in under a year and regretted the wasted time. I know there are horror stories out there and it's true that every now and then there's a machine that is a lemon. This was true before the advent of DEF and electronic controls as well. I believe that for every machine out there that has ongoing problems there are at least several that experience almost none. It's also true that the newer machines need operated differently than we did 25 years ago. As far as I know all new machines come with an owners/operators manual. I recommend reading each one. These are my opinions. My opinion and $0.25 used to buy a cup of coffee. I think you need $2.00 or more with or without my opinion to buy a coffee now ..
We had the same issue when HD brought out the M8 motor. Quieter, quicker, liquid cooled and HD was blasted and the internet made it seem like they all sumped oil and they were junk. The first year or two, they had a few issues and yes a few lemons but the majority were fine. It’s always the nay sayers that yell the loudest. I had one, was a good bike, went back into a Twinkie because I like fuel injection and like working on my bikes and tourqing them up. No need on an M8, most would take me off the line. The builders that were tuning the M8 were getting stupid numbers on the dyno. While for HE, I prefer no computers and no DEF, one day I may change my mind. For now on bikes, I will run a Shovelhead and a Revolution and strip my Twinkie and run that on the track, no reasonably stock M8 can touch that. The dyna on it is extremely impressive. Fuel injection was the game changer for HD’s for me. No choke, start it up on a 35 degree morning and go.
I don't know about that. The Bosch System on the new V2 Engine by Bobcat are pretty good, nothing compared to the Delphi System!
I don't agree 100% but,,,, "The Dude Abides"
But you compare apples with oranges. The engines you mentioned are running in a welder, where does the welder usually sits---on your truck bed. That is, compare to a loader, a very clean and "shake free" environment. Also you have no drastic RPM changes like when the hydrostatic pump is overloaded or so. So you can not compare these two scenarios. And I know a lot of older Operator Owners who do not run their machine at full idle.
Slightly different application but 10,000 hours on an industrial diesel engine is the norm rather than the exception. Many go longer. A welder still requires a certain HP and needs to maintain that HP and speed to work properly. Using a welder to it's full potential puts just as much load on the engine as a hydrostat transmission. Do some gouging with a welder and it will certainly make it bark. If you exceed the duty cycle you're more likely to hurt the welding end than the engine. Operators who don't run their skid steers at full throttle are misinformed. It's also harder on the hydrostat components especially when doing heavier work.
Well, I guess I better not ever buy a DEF unit because I never run equipment at full rpm’s unless I need it. I wear ear plugs most times and don’t like machines running wide open, especially if the power isn’t needed. On certain machines, even my Kubota, they get a little too jerky when running wide open and are difficult to operate cleanly.
Kubotas are always jerky
That’s okay, I always feel like a friggin bobble head running one anyway. lol
I ran an early Cat that was really jerky too at full throttle for precision work. It had a throttle pedal because it needed it. I could pick up eggs without breaking them with my skid steer at full throttle. It's not about needing the power. It is much easier on hydrostatic pumps and motors to be run at full throttle. It's the whole point of having a hydrostatic drive. With DEF it's probably even more critical.
Well Dave, you can run your non DEF machine at full throttle, me being in the states, it’s a free country and I will pass on that.
Not trying to argue, everybody can run at whatever throttle they want. I've been told by hydraulic shops hydrostatic transmissions get longest life and are most efficient at full throttle. I thought with DEF you don't want to bog the engine unnecessarily and it's easier to bog at lower throttle. You also have faster response to control movements at full throttle.
I run half throttle on my tl150, I have never ran it at wot. The belts will squeal. I can get almost 2 days out of a full tank at 1/2 throttle. My case is lucky to get a full day on a tank. All def machines require high heat to burn out the soot, hence wide open throttle. If you run them at half throttle they will clog the sensors and give you issues in short time. Fuel cost is probably 25% more in the newer machines plus def fluid. I have wondered about Ford's new 2kw power on board in the 6.7 power strokes. I was told to try to not leave the truck idling. So how does that work running power tools of the system?
I thought DEF needs high heat as well. I think there's something wrong if your belts squeal at full throttle. At half throttle I would think you'd have slow response to the drive and implement hydraulics as well as a decrease in power. It would be interesting to see what other operators set the throttle at in skid steers and CTL's. Even hydrostat dozers and track loaders.
hi, can any one help me with the year of manufacturing of a D7G, serial number 92V06855
Only ask in one thread.
Sorry, I will from now
What part of the country?
I have a 620B on rent right now, and have for about a month. Its about the same as our DL550 Minitour but it typically doesn't run with the bucket much. We have been using the 620B to load trucks an move material around. Super impressive, she is a little thirsty, but when you factor in the amount of material it moves it makes sense. Everyone likes running it. Always the first choice.
Is the difference in tipping capacity noticeable? I’ve considered trading our 620 for a 550 but am semi concerned about the capacity difference. 1,400 pounds can be a lot when loading a truck downhill or when sneaking out over a trench or other excavation to dump stone
Total tipping capacity would be 1400 pounds but 700 in ROC. I doubt it would be noticeable for most applications. The 550 handles that big bucket fine, but as I have said, we don't run the 550 with a bucket very often. We have considered getting another 550, that one will have single grousers though.