I've got a small pond in the pasture that's in desperate need of a cleaning out. Until now it's been the only water source for the cows but I've fenced off another larger pond to water out of, and now I'm thinking it's time to work on this pond. It has a pipe in it for a stock tank but the renter hasn't been able to get it flowing this year. He is understandably getting worried that he'll lose a cow in the mud. I'd be surprised if there is more than 2' of water in the center but might have 8' of mud. There are several trees on the back of the dam that need moving (one fairly large cottonwood). The dam is full of rocks and is worn down so it's quite narrow on top and has one washed out place caused by the pond overflowing through a cow path. It doesn't have an overflow pipe, just a spillway at one end....I intend on adding an overflow pipe. Washout through dam So, is it best to breach the dam and let it drain until next year before cleaning it out? Considering the condition of the dam I'm wondering if it's best to just about push out the whole dam and start over. One neighbor that's done quite a bit of dozer work tells me that they always worked with the dam in place. He says that "the water is your friend" in helping move the mud and if you run out of water it can make it much more difficult. I guess they just started working in from the edges, keeping the tracks on solid footing. Looking at this pond I can't imagine diving off in it an not expecting to get buried in the first minute. I will be doing most all the work with my D6c....might be able to get an excavator or backhoe in to help cut out the dam, but probably not to help clean it out. Might not be the most efficient way but you have to use the tools you've got. Any advice on how to approach the work will be appreciated.
If you're going to attempt clean-out with your dozer you will have to get rid of the water. A small excavator would work well to dig a sump in one end and pump the water out. Once you get rid of water and let dry out a bit you should be able to start working the dirt out. Hopefully there is good solid bottom or you might be SOL to clean with your 6.
I'd agree. Get rid of the water. Either cut the dam or do like Shimmy1 suggested and pump it out. Overflow pipe is a good idea. Could also include a gated pipe/culvert lower down for future draining purposes. Andrew
Water is not your friend in that pond. If there is only three or four feet of mud in the bottom , it will still take forever and a day to dry out if you just just let it sit after you do the de-watering . The cows should be fenced off of the dam forever. I live on a river and have seen first hand what a cows track becomes over a period of time after watching them going down to get their drinks and go wading. Trees are a dams worst enemy other than burrowing rodents. Trees weaken a dam in no time. There are a couple of ways to clean the pond. I do not want to sound like a know it all, so I will other members advise you as to how to get it cleaned out.
I have done a fair amount of wetland restoration. Like I said hopefully it has a good bottom that will carry you then you can work your way in. It's tricky sometimes getting the mud worked back a little so you can start working the silt out. I'll emphasize again if there is no bottom yet after a foot maybe foot and a half you will be digging it out with a hoe. A crawler can do a lot but needs some sort of footing.
Yair . . . D6c10K . As Shimmy1 says to do anything with a dozer you will have to get rid of the water . . . it most definitely will not be "your friend" and it will be impossible to do anything in there apart from getting stuck. If it is possible to get the dam drained and dried out a little you may be able to do something with a dozer although if there is eight feet of mud to deal with it may be precious little. There are several threads on HEF on cleaning out ponds and basically it comes down to draglines, excavators or an ancient horse drawn technology called a "silt scoop" which no one seems to believe will work because it is too simple . . . a small one here being operated by a couple of wheel tractors . . . . Such a scoop will work in water and, incidentally, I believe breaching a sound dam wall is a poor option and draining that water could be easily done with a few (say) two inch siphons. Short vid on this link. As I have mentioned on here before I cannot imagine why anyone would put a good machine into a pond . . . this thing could be knocked up for a few hundred bucks. http://www.starkeng.com.au/scales.php Cheers.
I think I agree with getting the water out. Also, from what I've seen around here, it probably would never dry up enough without breaching the dam. Clay soils and rains would probably keep it wet forever. If I can get it cleaned out I will definitely fence it off. Cattle are very hard on ponds. Any ponds built with NRCS money these days are required to be fenced. I'll put in an 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 pipe with an underground valve for a stock tank below the pond. Not sure if I like the idea, but the NRCS allows the use of plastic drain tile (6-8") on smaller ponds, trenched through the spillway for an overflow pipe. Uses a drop inlet much like a terrace. A cousin of mine put one in...didn't install seep collars or compact it well enough. Hard rains filled the pond and the next day he found all his tile blown out and in the ditch below the pond. Otherwise most are built with 6" well pipe overflows. Back in the '60s & '70s most were built with corrugated steel pipe around here. Lots of them are rusting out now and will need fixing. I've got one that's got a spiral wound metal pipe....it's come apart just below the waterline and has dropped the level about 2'.
Hi there Scrub puller. Been reading your posts for years here finally broke down and registered myself. I've always liked yer perspective on things. Looking forward to some discussion in the future.
If you use tile and riser, use non-perf tile and steel riser.Good luck
This is a pond I helped my brother clean out a couple of years ago. Mud was very deep and sides steep. When I got to the bottom, the wall of mud was as high as my head sitting on the dozer. We ended up having to leave a little of the silt...just too steep for the dozer and the excavator was having mechanical problems. I'm guessing this other pond won't be quite as deep but still a lot of mud.
I believe they work....only problem is how steep the slopes are around most ponds here. Working parallel to the dam with a scoop I would have to drag the mud about 200-300' away or it would run right back in the pond. Once the slopes got covered with mud the tractors would have difficult time going uphill. Working perpendicular to the dam might be a little better....would have to dump downhill only though and upper tractor would be on steep ground.
Yair . . . Dunno about these blokes. They sure have put some money into silt scooping . . . good on them I say. http://www.robcodamcleaning.com.au/ D6c10K. It is often necessary to build a "pound" or diversion bank to hold the mud. Cheers,
Looks like the perfect job for a small dragline . Remove trees with the dozer & get them out of the way . Clean up & shape the dam as needed the let the dragline slop it out .
I disagree, water is most definitely your friend. If you drain it to let it dry that mud will get very sticky. Just push about half of the dam over on top or behind of the other half. Then drain the water. Don't let the mud dry. It looks like you have room behind your dam for the mud. It moves very easy down hill if it is wet. Start cornering on the side of the dam you removed. This is the tricky part, as the mud will want to suck you downhill. Keep the back end of the machine slightly upslope, and back up as much as necessary. Once you get close to the bottom it is easy. You need to make sure and get the first pushes of mud far enough away. A good measure is to go as far as you think you need to, then go that far again.
Have you considered fixing the dam but leaving the muck and building a new pond below or above instead? Seems like a more efficient use of a dozer. I love Scrub's pictures, but that's a whole different world than what you're dealing with, in more ways than the hills.
The hillsides widen quickly below the pond.....above the pond there's not a lot of drainage area.
Interesting approach....when you take down half of the dam, do you remove pretty much all of it, starting from the back side and working upward until you get into the mud? I understand about pushing the mud far enough away...when I helped my brother clean his pond we were amazed at how big the mud pile got. Had to push some of it further down hill to make room.
Just below the pond it begins to flatten out, and about 250' downhill there is a main ditch running parallel with the dam. If it's practical I'd like to run the pond drain clear to the ditch to avoid the overflow washing another gully. Would it work to run 6" well pipe through the dam and connect it to drain tile from there to the ditch? Not sure how big the tile would need to be or if it would tend to plug up. Or I suppose I can run the drain tile all the way like I described earlier. If I can come up with an inexpensive time lapse camera, I'd like to set it up on a tripod and video the work so it would play back at high speed.....of course if things go wrong everyone gets to see that too. Not sure if I'll get to this project this fall or not...I should at least get the trees cleared and get a plan together.
Yeah pretty much. There will be some of the dam under the mud, that will have to taken out with the mud. I have cleaned out a lot of ponds using an excavator, dozer, track loader, or some combination of them. In the right conditions this is by far the fastest method even having to remove and replace some of the dam. That mud just moves so much easier going flat or downhill. Once you get a slot established with the tail piles you can move in one push what would take an excavator 20 minutes to shift. I have to admit I do always bring the excavator when cleaning a pond. Mainly so I don't have to fight hard to get mud, and I can be braver about getting stuck, which usually happens anyway.
Yair . . . It's quite amazing. These cleaning out pond threads go on and on talking excavators, track loaders, dozers and getting stuck when a little hole like that can be cleaned out with a 40 hp tractor and even a 4x4 pickup on almost any site. You can have them working back and forth across the wall, side by side, at ninety degrees to each other, in and out the trees, all it takes is a bit of extra rope and a snatch block. It can be handy to have some sort of digger to make an impoundment to contain or direct the mud. I'll see if I can find some pictures I had of a horse team taking ten feet of mud out of a steep gully dam. They have a block rigged up onto a tree behind the dam and are working back and forth on a flatter bit of country about a hundred yards below the wall . . . they would pull through, unhook, wheel around, hook onto the tailrope, pull the scoop back and so on. Provided the hole is not too dry the scoop works back and forth in the slot with the material "slumping" to it. you wont get all of it but, for all practical purposes most of the mud can be removed with (say) half a dozen slots and repositioning of the snatch block. I am not talking heavy gear that has to be manhandled, 1/2" cable will pull a lot of mud. Cheers.
I agree Scrub, the silt scoop does look like a very efficient way to clean a pond, but I highly doubt that I'll buy one. Pond cleaning is a very minor part of my business. Agricultural work around here doesn't pay as well as other things I could do with my time, so I will invest very little in equipment specifically for agricultural work. I do enjoy the work for the most part, and it makes good filler work. If someone wants me to fix up their pond with the equipment that I have, then I will. And in D6C's case, where he has a pond that needs fixed up, and a dozer, it only makes sense to offer a method where he could do the job with the equipment on hand.
Just re read your first post Scrub. You said someone could knock one together for a few hundred bucks, which would leave a few gaps in my argument. Though, I don't totally concede.
I've used one of the Stark Engineering scoops with excellent results, although not as fast as in the clip, but one of these would probably cost at least several thousand dollars. I've also used, simpler, home made versions that could be made for several hundred bucks, but the cable needed would cost a similar amount unless you could find some scrapped somewhere. I've also hooked straight in with a dozer, which is my least favourite method. Of course, it depends on your temperament as much as the material your working with. There is nothing more frustrating than struggling to push a wheelbarrow load of mud up the slope only to get within 6 feet of the top of the bank and completely running out of traction. Cheers, Greg
Cut dam to deain water may have to do it in a couple of places so you have better access to mud close to sides. Make cuts in dam so deep that there isnt much of a slope to get mud out. On side slope with mud cut them flat, work on shape later if you side slope in mud you will get stuck... the machine will slide into mud. Once you cut just deep enough to get footing you will be amazed how much sloppy mud your machine will push. Once all the muck is out use your good material in the bottom to rebuild the dam. build dam up enough that you can make a spillway on the lower side. I wouldnt mess with a pipe, most of the ponds around here that have pipe in them also have a spillway for heavy rains so i dont see the point in a buying a pipe.
Lots of older ponds here without pipes too, but the main reason for a pipe is to prevent erosion...with only a spillway you get overflow whenever pond is full that can cut a ditch on back side of dam below spillway. I've got that problem with the pond as it is now. Not sure if it's practical to run a pipe 250' to the main ditch, but I can at least get it down to where the ground is flatter. BTW, Last week we got 5+ inches of rain in 3-4 hours..(rain gauge ran over). Two of my ponds (about 1 acre each) have overflow pipes and 10-12' wide spillways. Still wasn't enough to drain the water....both ponds over-topped the dams which are 2-3 ft. above the spillway height. Wish I had pics of them but it was at night. Same thing happened 3-4 years ago.
This will work if there is dry dirt next to the pond. Pump water out. Dig a DEEP hole(hole's) with excavator next to the pond (20' deep if possible), fill hole 1/2 way up with mud then with excavator sprinkle dry dirt to cap mud. After a few feet of dirt you can put it in at a faster pace to get to get back up to grade. Now it is easier to deal with the extra dry dirt instead of the mud. Maybe make a blueprint of your holes in case you need to do this again in 20 years.
A silt scoop (as stated before ) would be the way to go. Taking a dozer near the dam in question, other than to pull a silt scoop would be asking for trouble. Draining pumping out etc would be a complete waste of time and money. Have seen dams that have been cleaned out with an excavator and they don't compare to the job done properly with a silt scoop. Have silt scoops ever been manufactured in the US?
No one around here chains brush either. May be a difference in soil type, terrain, rainfall, etc. I'm not scared at all to take a dozer to an existing pond dam, but maybe around here it's easier to get a pond to hold water. There's all sorts of the most advanced machinery of all descriptions within 10 miles of my house, but no silt scoop. They were really popular in the form of the horse drawn slip, until the invention of the crawler tractor. Perhaps we've regressed.