how do yall price a job because i went and did a small very simple job today it was back filling a pool and making it look nice and pretty I used a tractor I owned with a box blade because I haven't installed a loader on the front. this is how I broke down the job tell me if im off or seem about right 2 hours of work= 200 dollars tractor= 75 dollars and hour fuel tractor + truck = 50 operator cost = 40 insurance = 50 phone bill =10 that's how I broke it down and no it dint take me 2 hours but I gave my self that much time in case something happened
I can't understand what you charged. Was it $200 for the job or $500?
That seems like an odd way to bill. $10 phone bill for a 2 hour job and $50 insurance??? Just figure out what you need per hour and bill for 2 hours. 2 hour minimum is more than reasonable. A lot of bigger machines have a 4 hour or more minimum and often also a travelling charge. I'm not sure what your total bill was either?
we are not saying your wrong but what was the total bill ?? I just figure out what my total cost is and bill it by the hour, with a 3 hour minimum , from the time I leave the yard. most of the time
billed 300
I do a 2 hour minimum bill if its close by if it a distance I have to travel I do it as soon as I start going but if its within 2 miles of me then I bill when I get to the site
the phone bill for this was a special deal because I had to call around a lot to figure out what was going on so I said the hell with it and added it in dint cost me 10 dollars but for all the phone calls I had to make I just said a dollar a call
I guess if the customer was happy is the bottom line. Why all the calling around for a simple job? Sorry but $150/hr. for a tractor with a box blade seems high to me. We've got an O/A with a JD850J WLT giving us a discount for cash at $150/hr and it's 25 ton machine. Lot more than 2 hours work though.
In my opinion, if you leave the yard with the machine,you need to have a minimum charge, whether it’s an hour or three hours, if you go over four hours, then you’re working on a full day. Because if you work for four hours by the time you load up and get back or to another job you’ve actually wasted closer to five or six hours…
For my backhoes I have a 4 hour min i charge 100 an hour same for my mini doesn't matter if the job takes 10 minutes or 3 hours I get 4 hours for pulling out the gate When you bill people simple is better And small little ganon tractors are going between 70 and 90 bucks an hour around me and they have a 2 hour minimum I rarely ever give a price for a job that will be less than a days work if I have to think about a small job that much it's not worth my minimum The one thing to remember is to be consistent in how you bill I have learned people don't get bent out of shape over price its seeing misilanious charges on a job that you spent less than 2 hours on business owners talk to other owners in the same trade and talk about the subs they use it can make or break your reputation
basically the calling around came from the customer and the pool people basically me having to figure out if the pool was finished because the customer dint know so I had to make 10 calls and when they finally told me yes everything is fixed they just need to backfill. I called the customer back told them and then they hired me to do the backfilling basically that pool company isn't very good so it caused a lot of run around and wasted a lot of time so.
I got a 2 hour minimum
I still have a day job so I cant really do big jobs unless its the weekend this job I woke up did early in the morning and went to work later on it was close by so it wasn't to bad and
Three hundred dollars seems pretty cheap to fill in a backyard pool. How big was the pool? Was it an in ground pool or semi buried above ground pool? Concrete or fiberglass? did yo have to bring in any fill?
Cat welder I have been in your shoes as far as starting a business and having a day job it's a real pain just remember the habits you start now with 0ricing and billing will follow you for quite a while after you go into your business full time Phone leg work seems to just be part of the job anymore no one seems to be able to communicate I have the same problem with jobs every day no one ever knows what's going on especially superintendents. If your still curious about billing sit down and think what you have to have to run a machine find that number then figure out what you pay yourself for running it and make sure the company makes money on top of that and bill for that machine by the hour or by the job however you want but keep your invoices simple when people pay for a machine everyone assumes that includes an operator
And insurance, and fuel. I would also argue transportation, though that seems to be covered best by the minimum # of hours billing. I am not telling you that you are doing it wrong. I do agree that simpler is better when presenting a proposal/bid to a client: $100/hr with a 3 hr. min. If I run into day 2 more than I can take care of by staying late on day 1, we have a 3 hr. min again, etc...
Catwelder I think you are on the right track on getting your billing together as far as accounting for costs. You have your cost of goods sold or hard cost: Tractor Truck and trailer (mobilization) Fuel You/operator Maintenance ect. Then you have overhead or soft costs: Insurance Phone Taxes Business license ect. Like others have said all those costs need to be worked into an hourly rate, however your client doesn't need to see that detailed of a breakdown. It's a psychological issue with clients - actually had a potential client tell me once that I didn't have any overhead in a precon meeting... Second a minimum is a must, personally I like a 4 hr minimum for small iron such as this. If it goes over 4 hrs then it's a day @8 hrs. Don't forget your mobilization costs no matter how small they are. If you are moving your tractor from job to job with your pickup and a trailer, both of those cost money to operate. At the stage you are in the business, your mobilization costs should be included in the 4 hr minimum. Now it's up to you to decide your working area radius and distances your willing to travel included in the 4 hr min as that is a very regional item to price, only you can determine that. Some places you can travel 20 miles in 20 mins and other places that 20 miles might take an hour or more. For reference - on a typical $150,000 job we do, there is a $4,000 mobilization charge included broken into 4 separate mob charges. $1k to show up, demo, rough grade and install utilities, 2nd $1K mob to grade for parking, 3rd $1K mob to backfill curbs/final grade. The 4th $1K is there as insurance as there is always something that happens where we have to come back.
We rarely work on the hour with " dirt jobs " . Folks want a pretty close idea on total cost before accepting us . Don't blame them one bit as I'm the same way . Don't like surprises anymore than they do . I generally just size up the job , take a stab at how long it will take & what equipment needs to be onsite and roll off a $ number to the customer . If they like the $ number we go play . If they don't that's cool to . Had one lady tell me " I shop around for the best deal " . Yeah … So do I . We don't take every job . Man ! you cat's missed one big item …. Don't forget to factor in the cost of repairs & trip to the Happy Hour Bar & grill . Add that to the cost . LOL HeavyEquipmentForums After ya get a customer base only reason they ask the number is so they know what to write the check for to pay ya .
Last job I did with a partner involved 26,000 yards move with a TS-24 scraper. It was his buddy so we did it for 180 per hour. I wanted to do it for a buck per yard including a 140G grader. It was a short run and I run hard. We got $9300 on a job that should have made 25k plus. No more partners after that one. At least my estimate of yardage was close. Poor old 24 was moving about 500 yards an hour on that one.
We moved about the same yardage on a 3 acre lake . Customer asked what I thought it would cost ? Easy . Cost of new pickup truck . He asked " what kind of truck ? " I said upper middle class 3/4 ton new pickup with a few options . We took the cash & kept the 1986 Chevy K-30 pickup on that job . LOL ! Scrapers will still move dirt for pennies on the dollar compared to other equipment .
it was a 24 inch above ground pool the fill was already there and basically all the dirt was already around the pool but the pool company was suppose to bring someone out there but lied and lied so they just hired me to do it instead of being lied to everyday about someone coming out
the tractor I have is paid for so the 75 dollars an hour for the tractor would basically cover what I could see possible repairs needed down the road form use and then to actually make a payment on a machine. I cant do one job with the tractor to pay the whole months bill for it but I still think if I used the tractor for 4 jobs that would pay what the payment was monthly and cover any thing I might need to repair at any given time
id like to add that pool company id never recommend them to do a thing they lied to me and the customer more times then I could count in a weeks period
right now I want everything as simple as can be makes me feel more comfortable with my numbers and makes me sleep better at night knowing that I have a base down for what is needed minus the phone bill that was this job only type deal so far
I think I might go up on my min to 3 if anything else ive kind of figured that ill do a job within in 50 miles and anything beyond that right now ill start adding in a few dollars every few miles if I got the job I have a spreadsheet created that I go off and which is basically how I break down the cost and I save it under each customers last name and highlight it green if I made a profit and red if I dint and blue if I broke even so I can learn form that and adjust
so far my customer base is happy with my prices to be fair ive had 4 customers so far and have 2 more this weekend word of month is a great thing for me right now the little tractor will make me more money this weekend then anything else and right now im working on those contracts
You get a front loader for the tractor and will be surprised how many jobs it will do with the 3 point lift & PTO on the back . We " tag team " the Ford 4000 with the excavator on a concrete in ground pool demo job . They make a pretty good team but don't tell them I said that .
im looking at a backhoe honestly because whats the saying do of all master of none or something but going to add a front end to the tractor right now I got 2 bush hogging jobs this weekend so next tractor I buy will have a cab also
Sounds like your In a great position to start from paid for equipment is the best equipment hands down. If you like sleeping at night be weary of getting payments they are the devil. The only other thing I will add is when you start looking at equipment like backhoes they take bigger trucks and trailers to move than a little Gannon tractor and that means more overhead
sage advice
Paid for Iron is better than money in the bank .
yeah right now I have a 1500 dodge that pulls just fine and if I go bigger I have my cdl but cant afford a dump right now so the dodge might need to get a friend not a new dodge though those things are god awful ugly but something that's a 2500 or bigger but when the time comes until then im not buying a new truck
why not have both
That's is a good question. I have a mix of both paid for and paying for equipment. Out of 8 pieces of iron only two have notes on them. The sweet spot is to get one machine paid off the is still in good shape in order to create revenue for new purchases. Example - I have a 321DLCR that is paid for with 5-6K hrs on it. RPO'ing a 325FL now. The 321 still has a lot of life in it and is producing. The 325FL is new and expensive but it earns enough to pay it's keep. The 321 is the real profit maker since it's in the "sweet spot" of being paid for and has good life left in her. Eventually the 321 will be sold and the 325 will be in it's sweet spot and the cycle repeats itself. We run two crews that primarily depend on an excavator, CTL and trench roller as the prime movers. Each crew has one of each. Our D5G, 953C and 533 compactor floats between crews as they are needed.
If you are big enough to have separate crews doing this and doing that all at the same time then the equation is a little bit different but when you are one or two guys and a truck it seems paid-for is the way to go.
It's mostly about " cash flow " on borrowed bread . If it will cash flow it's all cool . Feller has to look ahead & have a plan to deal with when " Cash flow " changes all the sudden . CM's plan mixing paid for iron along with new iron on a payment sounds pretty solid . I like that ! Have to step out a little in this game at times just make sure you can see some Bud Light soda at the end of the tunnel And there is also the unexpected on a job site ……… " I called the service feller & tolled him what happened "...…. He was supposed to show up 2 day's ago ? LOL HeavyEquipmentForums
well right now after this weekend the tractor will earn a good enough amount and later on maybe next year ill add a backhoe and maybe buy a dump truck lots of maybes for me. if my customer bases grows and there is a need for something like a backhoe ill get one but till I need lot of digging or something that the tractor cant do ill just have the tractor but will get a dump truck sooner for gravel and such and to haul the tractor so I don't mess up my truck. id like to have a 320 sized machine but I don't want the payment
I have me and maybe a buddy come and help and slip him 50 bucks and a case of beer and that is my helper for the day
looking at your stuff I just gotta ask what is the newest thing you bought because you seem like a man who does not like a payment plan unless its to you
This business is not for the faint of heart you will be busy and over night you will find yourself sitting at home for a few days and or weeks Things break at the most inconvenient time and it's not when things are slow or when there is ample money to cover repairs I am running on a stronger gamble than I like I leased 2 backhoes everything else is paid for except for the mini ex it's on an rpo but I have the cash to write that check if I pull the trigger You just have to weigh your options and make a bet
For what you did, I think $300 is a bit expensive. That being said, your break down is a bit much, for 2 reasons. You are charging for things people don't care about, and your total doesn't add up. That being said, if you tell them you will include transportation, making sure you are accepting of the distance of course, for a 4 hour minimum charge at $75 per hour for machine and operator, I think you can get away with that price. I would also not bill for that small of work if possible. I would tell them cash on completion, or the limit of what they want to pay. I would also give them an approximate time to complete work if it's going to be more than minimum charge of 4 hours. So, this would be one line item. 4 hour minimum charge. $300 Line items would be for other charges, like materials and trucking, engineering(re sloping, setting lines, hubs, figuring fill, and time spent with customer for figuring out what they want if its excessive), and the likes. A lot of small operators will charge cost for materials, and show receipts to the customer, or have them pay for them directly. Keep it simple. Keep it fair. Line item physical things you need to charge for and hours on the job. Add your overhead costs into hourly rates. I knew an owner that would charge for consumables on his billings. Everyone hated him, but he was cheap for bulk fabrication. He lost a lot of customers for things like that. In a nutshell, Add an hour of engineering for it. Customers like that better than marking paint, string line, insurance, etc. If it's not something being done, they usually dont want to pay it. If you spend an hour or less on the phone "chasing dirt", I wouldn't add it to the cost. In California, that's a commute to get dinner.....
I saw your post with the backhoes and you suggested I run a backhoe vs a mini and a skid and I forgot to say thank for that suggest because I find the ideal backhoe and I think it would fit my operation later on so thanks for that
Another thing to consider. I will finance (at low interest only) to achieve cash flow for things that do not negatively affect my balance. Things such as Roth IRA contributions and inventory to have in stock that could be reasonably turned back into cash, should the business take a nose dive. I have never had to make this reverse motion but it is available to make things less scary.
I mean that's how I broke down the bill for my self and what I charged them the bill for them was simple and dint have all that in theirs
so invest money beyond equipment then that is good advice
Consider retirement contributions and a couple other items non-negotiables, they get taken out automatically a month ahead and the books show a negative number in the future bank account. Then figure out where to get the money to stay above water. Worst case cancel the transaction before it actually happens but better just to hustle and get some more jobs to cover the investment. If the business model does not allow this then it is not profitable enough, better to keep working for wages + benefits.
I see now. 1st item is the second and third added together. So you are saying this is your in house estimate breakdown. Imo, your machine and operator cost is high. If you get into a 12 hour job, with your hourly, you are talking about $1200 plus misc charges. If you compare this with renting a skiploader, which may be about $600 for 1 day use and trucking(depending on where you get it, etc), get the job done in 6 to 8 hours because it's a bigger machine, at the same cost you just made $600 in a day and it cost you $30 in fuel, maybe. I think this is what others are saying here. Your $75 per hour just for the tractor in your estimate is high. If we are splitting it up, base the price on a full days work. Me personally, I want to charge $40-50 per hour for an operator. That being said, you are running a smaller machine, so maybe $30 is fair. Just IMO.... For 8 hours Operator- $240 Machine-$100(maybe check how much home depot costs for a day/hour with their scraper and charge that, just in case of a breakdown.) Fuel- $40 Subtotal $380 10% profit- $38 Taxes? Grand total-$450 ish per day. Half day minimum charge $225 You can play with some numbers, but that would be the general idea for an estimate. Do your charges based on what you decide to charge for those items. Add engineering time, trucking, material, etc. This will get you a decent estimate. Phone calls, paint, string line... that stuff will come out of profit as a working cost.
I think im have to play with the numbers regardless because I wanna be fair but I also want to make a profit and be able to do this full time eventually but its all about finding a sweet spot
Exactly. Everyone is different. I just gave you the general format. Most construction companies will find their labor rates, and typically charge similar to rental equipment prices. Sometimes the same as a rental quote, sometimes a little less or more. This way if they have a breakdown, they aren't losing money to finish a job. This will also give you the ability to use larger equipment for larger jobs without changing your estimating system. Good luck my friend.
Leatherman Super Tool 300 . It's about 5 years old and I'm due for a new one . Pins & bushings are shot and the plier jaw has been welded back together . https://www.leatherman.com/super-tool-300-2.html Trucks & yellow iron range from 1950 to 1997 . Rarely trade or sell anything . We keep it for the duration for the most part fix them when they break . I'm a field mechanic & welder buy trade so repairs don't spook us much . My business model is different in the aspect we decided to stay small and don't have any employees . Just take jobs The Old Man & I can handle & sub out our services just for certain parts of bigger jobs with other contractors . We still do service call's . Was thinking about this thread while heading down to " Buddy Bob's " today to install a new cylinder head on his Farmall 450 . Was getting antifreeze in the oil from a crack in the exaust port on # 4 cylinder on the old head . It's his " chore tractor" & uses it to run grain auger at harvest time . The tractor is 60 years old & still does it's job . That's why I like old iron , you can still work on it and it will produce . What would a 2018 model 55 PTO horse power tractor cost , 40 to 50 Grand ? Bob aint gonna go for that & neither would I ! We fixed the Farmall 450 and made it Great Again !
I will be calling my local rental company tomorrow and get some rates to see if I'm fair or if I'm high for the area that would really give me a good idea then adjust according to what I find out
honestly might need one of those super tools and yeah im a welder by trade but after welding then running equipment at a log mill then back to welding I kind of wanna do both but at the same time im also trying to farm so its hard to keep 3 different ideas going and also a 60 horse power john deere tractor with a cab and loader in my area is 40k
It just so happens we have a pre owned Super Tool on the lot now . Some life left in it . Pins & bushings are around 25% . It would make a great starter tool fixer upper for someone .
do you take cash because that's all I got on me right now started at 7 this morning and now just getting home fun day of bush hogging
Whatever it takes to make the sale ! We do cash , credit card and trade . Couple cases of Hamm's and the Super Tool 300 is yours . We will assist loading it on a truck & send it your direction .
Td do you ever think inside the box or are you boxless because you saw a need to use it
aint never heard of that brand right there how about a 3 bottles of jack or some jars of shine and we call it even
We run out of boxes all the time for that very reason . Great point AzIron ! LOL!
i think this bill is too detailed. say directly to customer that how much dose it cost per hour.
the customers bill is different then that one that bill is for my personal upkeep of what is cost me to make sure im right where I need to be the customers bill was really just transportation and for the grading of the pool. I break it down like that so I can adjust my cost as need be
Hang around with us a little & you will get to like it .
Don would just tell ya what it's gonna cost rite up front .
beer is beer I just tried a chocolate beer I don't recommend it
I had a fancy 15% coffee chocolate beer. It started out weird, but 1/4 thru it, it started tasting really good, by half it was amazing! Just sayin. Lol
mine was not fancy it was one of the customers they go wanna try this beer and who am I to refuse a beer they hand it to me and I don't have the taste for chocolate beer that's all I can say
Today we graded & packed in # 53 stone on a customers driveway . Used a 1973 Allis - Chalmers 170 road maintainer with box blade . Rained pretty hard while the trucks were spreading so it's a little sticky . Packs really good when its wet . After it dries out It dang near sets up like concrete with the fines mixed in with the stone . One of my favorite road grading tools . Forgot to ask … What kind of tractor you using catwelder ?
i got a Kubota l3800 if I can ever learn how to post id post pictures
I like those new style orange tractors . See quite a few in my area . http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/006/7/8/6784-kubota-l3800.html Pretty nice loader & backhoe options . https://www.kubota.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/L3200_3800.pdf
its a good little tractor but I think if I buy another tractor im go with a john deere because they are actually cheaper then the Kubota